2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumWhat Hillary's embrace of Kissinger tells us
We already knew that Hillary believes in a robust American foreign policy rooted in the belief that the U.S. is exceptional and critical to world stability; that the U.S. must be the world leader. We know she believes in exporting a certain vision of American values that includes profits for U.S. and Multinational corporations.
Her embrace of Kissinger informs us, at a minimum, that Hillary is willing to overlook gross excesses to achieve the above goals. I find that, in and of itself, disturbing.
The problem with Hillary, isn't experience. As her supporters say, she has more experience than all the other candidates put together. The problem with Hillary is her fixed vision of what the underpinnings of American foreign policy should be and her judgment. Kissinger has more experience than Hillary, but that experience, even as it included detente with the U.S.S.R. and the opening of China, included the secret bombing of Cambodia and backing genocide.
stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)you are fucking BRILLIANT!
stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)Gregorian
(23,867 posts)We're talking about serious consequences that affect millions of people. Trivializing that indicates that you just don't care about one of the most serious aspects of this election.
stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)Wilms
(26,795 posts)But he's not a shit-stirrer...if you know what I mean.
cali
(114,904 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)a discussion of their respective foreign policy visions?
DrDan
(20,411 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)Not worth playing your inane games.
Bye bye
DrDan
(20,411 posts)He supports that war machine through its manufacture in his state, hence is no pacifist. We will not see signs of pacifism in his foreign policy.
I initially mentioned it up-thread because someone claimed he was a pacifist and I disagreed.
Response to DrDan (Reply #10)
Wig Master This message was self-deleted by its author.
PeoViejo
(2,178 posts)Kissinger gave the go-ahead for the Military Junta to exterminate the Left.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)it is not decorous to use the latter for a lady!
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Churchill was certainly as much of an imperialist as Kissinger - if not more so.
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)and one that pushed for genocide I guess I will go with Churchill.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Churchill was the leader of the UK who led the instigation of that coup.
How about Churchill's policy towards India? Kenya?
cali
(114,904 posts)embracing Kissinger and his world view.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I don't think that Hillary embraces Kissinger's world view, however. She has said that they often see the world differently and advocate for different policies.
However, I do agree with you that there is a significant difference between the close relationship between HRC and Kissinger versus Bernie just citing Churchill as a historical figure that he admires.
cali
(114,904 posts)in her history as a Senator and in her history as SoS. Not identical but there are marked similarities.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I confess to not knowing as much about the connection as I should. In fact, I credit Bernie raising the point in the debate for inspiring me to read up more about Kissinger and Hillary.
That said, I still think her record and statements ought to be the focus.
Iggy Knorr
(247 posts)"The Clintons and the Kissingers regularly spend holidays together at a beachfront villa."
By David Corn
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/02/hillary-clinton-kissinger-vacation-dominican-republic-de-la-renta
...
What Clinton did not mention was that her bond with Kissinger was personal as well as professional, as she and her husband have for years regularly spent their winter holidays with Kissinger and his wife, Nancy, at the beachfront villa of fashion designer Oscar de la Renta, who died in 2014, and his wife, Annette, in the Dominican Republic.
...
With all this history, it was curious that in 2014, Clinton wrote a fawning review of Kissinger's latest book and observed, "America, he reminds us, succeeds by standing up for our values, not shirking them, and leads by engaging peoples and societies, the sources of legitimacy, not governments alone." In that article, she called Kissinger, who had been a practitioner of a bloody foreign-policy realpolitik, "surprisingly idealistic."
That's also the best that we can hope for with Hillary, that she's "surprisingly idealistic."
oberliner
(58,724 posts)"We have often seen the world and some of our challenges quite differently, and advocated different responses now and in the past."
I think Hillary has established her own credentials with respect to foreign policy being Secretary of States (as Bernie has acknowledged).
Certainly it is fair to be critical of the things she has done and said in that capacity, but I don't think it's fair to impugn her beyond that.
Iggy Knorr
(247 posts)She's the one who brought up Kissinger in the last debate, as if to flaunt it, to her friends on the left, to borrow an Obama phrase.
I think its incredibly tone deaf AND UNDEMOCRATIC to hang out with Kissinger and I think it reflects badly on her, her supporters, the party and us as a nation that this is the best candidate that the establishment can offer.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Bringing up Kissinger is one way to evaluate what she would be like as president.
Another way to evaluate that is by looking at her record as Secretary of State.
She has spoken extensively about her views on Libya, Iraq, Iran, China, Korea, and numerous international situations.
It seems like screaming: "She vacations with Kissinger!" is less conducive to a reasoned analysis of what kind of president she would be than looking at the totality of her record with respect to foreign affairs
Iggy Knorr
(247 posts)And for the record, she has horrible policy ideas for the region, and thank GOD for Kerry.
nationalize the fed
(2,169 posts)Seems Edwardian Britain never died- it just shifted geographically (apologies to Philip K. Dick RIP)
Iggy Knorr
(247 posts)The only downside would be possible UN armed troop escort to the Hague for your flatmate. (we can dream)
SHRED
(28,136 posts)stillwaiting
(3,795 posts)Hillary has had stronger support from the demographic that would be most likely to be aghast at her embrace of Kissinger as well.
It's not a tiny faux-pas.
It is hugely revelatory.
I truly hope that the over 55's that had been supporting her are paying attention. This is a big deal.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)it'd benefit the Foundation financially or let Lanny build up lobbyist cred or political expedience to look tough for the election, but because she BELIEVES in crushing other countries