Hillary Clinton Will Never be President of the United States

[SheenaR]

There is a great deal of passion on both sides of this Democratic coin this election season. The GD-P Board is constantly filled with posts attacking both candidates. Some are substantive and some are posted by people who have literally been quoted admitting they are just trolling.

This is not about that. This is about something far more serious that needs to be driven home.

Hillary Clinton will never be President of the United States. Not now. Not ever.

Now right away, some of you have already stopped reading and have gone to the comments to tell me that I am wrong and that Senator Sanders will never be President either. That's fine. I expect that you will write your own OP on this matter.

She very well may win the nomination. She still will never be President.

I cannot put this any more delicately than this: During this campaign, Hillary Clinton has had the opportunity of her lifetime to display to the American public why she should be the entrusted with the privilege of being President. She has had the opportunity to win back the trust (the trust she has admitted she knows she needs to earn back) of the electorate and has continuously failed to do so. She has had the opportunity to be transparent and be an open book to show how honest she actually is. Countless examples of her failure in this matter are alarming. Forget just the e-mails and transcripts, and YouTube videos showing her dishonesty. How about the little things? How about that journalists, working hard, have traveled with her for months. And the last question she fielded from them was ten weeks ago. That is not a transparent campaign.

Like it or not, she is not viewed as genuine. Two people who ARE viewed as genuine? Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump. Trump is a national disgrace and an embarrassment at every turn, yet people believe him to be honest and genuine. Again, Hillary Clinton may win the nomination, but how on God's green earth will she be able to run on her own words and record when Trump will destroy her at every turn. Let's not forget that Bernie Sanders is going EASY on her. Now take a look at what Trump is doing to his OWN party. Do you think that worse isn't on its way?

Yet again though, the comments will say, "Bernie will get eviscerated by Trump too". On what grounds? Are there videos of him demonizing racial groups or homosexuals? No. Is there a 13 minute loop of him lying about every position he stands for? No. Are they going to call him old and grouchy? Is that what will tip the scales? Are they going to call him a Socialist? Is that the hard hitting attack they will go on, when a good percentage of the electorate is not turned off by that word? Is the FBI investigating his actions or the actions of those close to him?

But yes, she will have the vote of POC. I don't deny that. Let's look at those states: South Carolina (Red 9 straight times), Georgia (Red last 5 times, 7 out of last 8), Alabama (Red 9 straight times), Mississippi (Red 9 straight times). The list goes on.

Fine fine... Even though that's her "Strength", they will say, "We wouldn't win those anyways". How about battleground states? Colorado, where she is losing ground daily to Sanders (Red 7 of the last 10 times). Iowa, which turned out in record number for the Republican primaries and where she could not get a majority of Democratic votes? There goes 6 more electoral votes. New Hampshire? There goes 4 more. Nevada? Where Trump is expected to cruise to victory again? 6 more gone. And we haven't heard one attack in this GE campaign and we already losing our previously expected plurality. The list goes on.

Attack those numbers too. That's fine. Nowhere will we see an issue based response as to why she would win those in a GE, but those numbers will be attacked. It's fine. She will never be President.

I keep hearing about how crucial this GE is. How it is vital to have a liberal leaning Supreme Court? Then why are we marching in like lambs to the slaughter with a candidate whose resume is stacked with some impressive positions, but whose campaign has done nothing but trend downward for almost an ENTIRE year. Where is this bounce for her coming from? Do you think its coming from Sanders supporters? Sure count on a lot of us. Not everyone. Is it coming from Independents? Not by the looks of it.

There's only one candidate who can win this GE for us and it's Bernie Sanders. (And no, I did not ever picture myself saying that a couple of years ago).

Everything about his candidacy gives us a better shot of the White House and that is the damn goal. Too idealistic? So be it. We will have the White House. Want to go on that "realism" platform? The White House will be theirs. I try every day to find the silver lining. I am an activist, volunteer, and I have a career. I take NO pride in declaring we would lose. But the simple fact is every day she turns more and more people away rather than toward her.

And that is why Hillary Clinton will never be President of the United States.

Note: This is an opinion piece about the Primary Election and the subsequent General Election. At no point have I violated TOS, nor are my opinions derogatory in nature. You may disagree with them. That's fine.

Edit: I'm going to let this sit and I will go eat some lunch now. I hope this can enable some solutions to be discussed as to how we can actually change this and win in November

[Jester Messiah]

1. Don't forget...

It almost seems like she and her surrogates are actively trying to alienate Bernie supporters. She's not going to win because she's giving the finger to people who would ideally (in terms of her campaign) form half her base.

[SheenaR]

5. Which is a huge part of my concern

And its not faux concern. I just left it out because I didn't want to get hidden for talking too much about Sanders supporters who will never come aboard.

[CorporatistNation]

292. As The Entry Polls Consistently Demonstrate... It's Da Lies Stupid...

&ebc=ANyPxKonX9TWGbKpXHgBcJ2D_kmiuRLFbmFU6lrWY_Pot1ZS38-yUxtXmjM6_6S6v0YOT7HYuQBfuRmR9rHFAn0PsUErYBdI0Q

[Carolina]

303. I cannot fall in line and get on board the Hillary Coronation train

At my age and now living a very red state (where it won't matter in the general), I refuse to vote for the not-so-lesser-of-two-evils.

Progressives, FDR/JFK liberals have been marginalized by the Democratic Party for too long. Corporate owned DINOs like HRC, DWS and their ilk no longer deserve our support.

[GoneFishin]

152. Because she is a 1%er first and a Democrat second. So keeping Bernie out if the WH is top priority.

Burning the Democratic party to the ground is just necessary collateral damage to make sure no 99%ers get into the White House.

[tomp]

236. that is true of the democratic party power structure as a whole

this has been shown over and over--they would rather lose the election than actually be progressive.

[GoneFishin]

251. Yep. It's disgusting and disappointing that more people don't see through that crap.

[SheenaR]

2. I didn't even bother to address

- TPP support and generally awful trade support in her history
- Iraq
- Fracking Support
- Wall Street Support



I figured those amongst others would be obvious GE fodder.

[tonybgood]

260. don't forget the Patriot Act

[Cassiopeia]

3. Excellent post.

We need to look at things with a healthy dose of reality. Clinton can not win the GE and having her in the GE will hurt us in all of the down ticket races as well.

Clinton is not a risk we can afford.

[trueblue2007]

48. it is not EXCELLENT. This OP is Very very anti Democrat.

[Cassiopeia]

57. An opinion on the outlook of the election is anti Democrat?

Please go on.

[Conium]

247. DU has been infilthrated by Republicans.

RepUGLYcans want Bernie Sanders to be the Democratic nominee. They and the news media painted Silver Star recipient George McGovern as a communist in 1972. If anyone believes Sander's 1985 escapades with Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega and Sandinista leftists in 1985 will receive a pass after the convention, they are deluding themselves. I will be voting for a real Democrat, not a Bernie-come-lately.

[Cassiopeia]

252. Are you trying to indicate that the poster is a Republican?

I think this is a lazy excuse to ignore posts. Many life long liberals and progressives are infuriated with the status quo and are fighting like crazy for Bernie.

You can be lazy and just call us republicans, but I'm betting that's true for maybe 1 in a 100 you think are doing so.

[AgingAmerican]

258. You are red baiting

Which is what Republicans do.

[Carolina]

304. 114 posts makes you an authority on DU

Au contraire. Real progressives, Real DEMOCRATS are raging against the machine as represented by HRC, DNC Chair DWS and other corporate owned third-way New Democrats, aka repuke-lites.

Bernie has been more of Democrat than HRC ever was. She voted for W's IWR, Patriot Act and Bankruptcy Bill. She is part of the Clinton legacy of NAFTA, Welfare Reform, Three Strikes and the real biggie -- overturning Glass-Steagall. All of which were largely gifts to Wall Street since welfare deform and three strikes feed the privatized prison industrial complex. Then there's her tenure as SOS which was a neocon's dream come true with more war, more regime change and more disaster for all except the war profiteers of the MIC. If that is a record of a real Democrat, then you low poster, may be just what you are calling others.

[mgmaggiemg]

327. agree

[roguevalley]

80. she is ready to be all things (moderate, centrist, liberal) to all men and nothing to nobody.

[trueblue2007]

113. I AM 65 YEARS OLD AND I'VE PROB BEEN A DEMOCRAT LONGER THAN YOU HAVE BEEN ALIVE

Don't you DARE call me a former republican and secret FOX news fan. You're slime for calling me names.

I AM A DEMOCRAT, so hang me or throw me in the stocks for supporting FORMER FIRST LADY, FORMER SENATOR & Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.
I will support either Democrat in the General election.

So Agent46, i pity you for trying to throw me in the mud. Bad mouth.

[C Moon]

219. +1

[Conium]

248. +1

Well said trueblue2007

[Herman4747]

249. And don't you be calling the OP "very, very Anti-Democrat," okay?

[Fla Dem]

253. Right there with you. We will prevail over the mudslinging.

Gallup
POLITICS DECEMBER 28, 2015
by Jeffrey M. Jones

Clinton Most Admired Woman for Record 20th Time

PRINCETON, N.J. -- Americans again name Hillary Clinton and President Barack Obama the woman and man living anywhere in the world they admire most. Both win by wide margins over the next-closest finishers, Malala Yousafzai for women and Pope Francis and Donald Trump for men.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/187922/clinton-admired-woman-record-20th-time.aspx

[mgmaggiemg]

328. good response

[SheenaR]

106. Absolutely not

I am trying to be a single voter voicing their concern that the Party needs to have a far better GE plan. So we can win. Very Democratic

[chervilant]

144. Are you familiar with "react mode"?

That's where Hi11ary is right now. She's defensive and that means the persons to whom she is reacting are controlling the dialogue.

We cannot afford to have Hi11ary "win" the nomination.

#NotMeUs

[cui bono]

159. In what way? n/t

[rhett o rick]

200. What is anti-Democratic is taking money (30 - 50 million dollars) from major corporations

and then pretending to be for the People.

[mgmaggiemg]

325. agree

[leftofcool]

4. Yawn

[SheenaR]

7. Get some rest

Going to be a long 2016 for you no matter how you slice it

[catnhatnh]

6. Disagree...

I was lucky to recommend this before it jumped to the greatest page! Good job.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

8. The election will be decided by the swing states.

Who can win the swing states?

[seaotter]

29. Bernie, it seems.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

38. I think that is true.

And we need only a few of the swing states

[JDPriestly]

225. I think he will win Florida quite easily.

What about Ohio? That's a little more problematic in my view. Nina Turner is a great advocate for Bernie. She is a wonderful lady with a huge heart, and she speaks so well. Hopefully she will be a determining factor in Bernie's favor in Ohio. She has been a courageous leader there, especially on women's issues as I understand it.

I think Bernie will sweep the West Coast states when the time comes.

[Tarc]

9. Ignorance and naivete

The American public will never vote in a racist ideologue like Trump or Cruz, either Clinton or Sanders will wipe the floor with whoever eventually emerges from the GOP's race to the bottom.

[SheenaR]

17. Tarc I honestly hope you are right

and that I am wrong. Obviously I do not think I am wrong, but I'll gladly eat crow to keep Trump et. al out of the WH.

Do not underestimate this Trump crowd. Somehow intellectuals are now buying his crap. And his following is downright frightening.

I'm not ignorant or naïve though, I will add.

[roguevalley]

81. polls show independents in good numbers going to Trump rather than HRC if she is the one. She will

lose moderate republicans in play and independents. She's toying poorly with the left. Some politicians believe you can trounce people in the primary and then turn around and smile at them in the general believing they will come. Many of them, too many won't.

[beaglelover]

92. Then the independents are fucking idiots. Hillary and Bernie agree on 99% of the issues. If an

independent will switch to Trump if Hillary is the nominee, then they are not intelligent enough to vote.

[Armymedic88]

105. Independents vote in large part for who they trust!!

May not like it but that's the way it is.

[arlington.mass]

114. Not idiots

They're not idiots

They believe Bernie and don't believe Hillary - it's that simple

[roguevalley]

119. your anger though probably merited matters not a bit because they will DO IT. All the screaming and

yelling mean nothing. If she is the one, they break for Trump. Being mad at them changes nothing.

[beaglelover]

158. Well if we have to have an R POTUS, I'd rather it be Trump versus the rest of the idiots.

[cui bono]

161. So you're saying it's either Hillary or Trump? Why not put up Bernie since he can beat Trump?

[corkhead]

243. .

[beaglelover]

271. If Bernie is the D candidate, we will lose in a landslide. The R smear machine has not even begun

on Bernie and has been pounding Hillary for 20 years. Overall, the US is populated by idiots who will believe the socialist smear, deadbeat dad smear, lazy bum he didn't get a job until he was 40 smear, etc, etc, etc. We're complete toast if Bernie is our nominee. So, we'll end up with whoever the R candidate is for POTUS. I hope it is Trump since he's the best of the worst.

[cui bono]

276. They have begun, and there's nothing to pund him about in comparison to Hillary.

Plus Hillary will probably be indicted right before the general.

You didn't bring up the trust numbers. Bernie had a 96% trust rating and Hillary has 6%. The people simply will not come out to vote for Hillary like they will for Bernie.

Hillary also has a very high unfavorable rating, Bernie's is positive. No candidate has ever won the GE with an unfavorable rating.

Because of both of those and her corporate ties, many Dems will simply not vote for her. They'll just stay home because there is no enthusiasm factor with her, it's just the same old same old with her, so many people will get apathetic and feel like it doesn't make a difference if they vote anyway, because they are only given business as usual to vote for and they are sick of that. Bernie has gotten Dems excited about getting money out of politics - which is how he is running his campaign, so we know that is already happening with him - and making govt work for the people again instead of the 1%. He is not just a bunch of hot air, he is the real deal and shows us that by how he is financing his campaign. The people are showing up in droves to see him which shows how enthusiastic they are about him and what he fights for. You can't buy that.

Then there's the independents and crossover vote factor. These are the people who would come out to vote for Bernie in the GE because the GOP candidates are all crazy. But if Hillary is the other choice again, they may not vote at all, or will vote against her and vote GOP.

Then there's the staunch Republicans who may not vote at all given that their candidates are crazy and maybe they aren't active anyway and don't make it a point to vote. But if Hillary is the candidate they will absolutely make it a point to vote just to vote against her. They loathe her. As you said, there's been decades of RW attacks on her and they will do whatever they can to stop her from being president. But they don't mind Bernie, in fact, a lot of them like what he says and like that he's so authentic and they know he means what he says.

So if you want to assure a Democrat gets in the White House, you better hope Bernie wins the nomination.

.

[bvar22]

229. Hillary and Bernie agree on 99% of the issues???!!!!

Not even close.

* Sanders has supported gay rights since 40 years ago. Clinton and Republicans have not.

* Sanders wants to end the prohibition of marijuana. Clinton & The Republicans do not.

* Sanders wants to end the death penalty. Clinton and Th Republicans do not.

* Sanders wants to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour. Clinton and the Republicans do not.

* Sanders wants to break up the biggest banks. Clinton and The Republicans do not.

* Sanders voted against the Wall Street bailout. Clinton and the Republicans (and too many "Democrats) did not.

* Sanders introduced legislation to overturn Citizens United. Clinton and The Republicans did not.

* Sanders refuses to accept money from super PACs. Clinton and the Republicans do not.

* Sanders supports a single-payer healthcare system. Clinton and The Republicans do not.

* Sanders refrains from waging personal attacks for political gains. Clinton and The Republicans do not.

* Sanders considers climate change our nation's biggest threat. Clinton and The Republicans do not.

* Sanders opposed the Keystone XL Pipeline since day one. Clinton and the Republicans do not.

* Sanders voted against the Patriot Act. Clinton and the Republicans did not.

* Sanders voted against the war in Iraq. Clinton and The Republicans did not.

* Sanders wants to Raise (or eliminate) the CAP on FICA deductions. Clinton and the Republicans do not.

* Sanders opposes unrestricted "Free Trade". Clinton and the Republican do not.

Those are just a few major issues off the top of my head.

Please list the 99% of the issues on which Hillary agrees with Bernie.

[mark67]

244. My concern is you can be right but still lose big in a general election...

...forgive my cynicism. But Bush was reelected to office 12 years ago.

I recently saw photos of Trump and Sanders side by side and, sorry to say, it's looks like Mr. McGoo vs. the Master of the Universe. Even Nate Silver, I believe, said Sanders would lose to Trump.

Most voters probably don't hang around Democratic Underground. Many are probably afraid of the word socialist. And your Republican friend who tells you how much he admires Sanders (but would probably never vote for him) should probably be taken at face value.

I'll vote for Sanders if he gets the nomination but I fear a McGovern 2016 repeat.

[cui bono]

261. You should make this an OP.

And title it Bernie and Hillary do NOT agree on 99% ofthe issues.

In fact, there should be multiple OPs about it since this had become a meme lately.

I keep seeing that lately and it's so not true. I don't understand her supporters trying to convince everyone she's just like Bernie. If you like Bernie so much then vote for him! He's proven he's electable.

[NorthCarolina]

246. I personally see well more than 1% difference between Bernie and Hillary.

Claiming they agree 99% on issues is nothing more than wishful thinking on the part of Hillary fans. The differences are YUUUGE!

They differ on how to handle Social Security with Bernie firmly in the "raise the cap" camp and Hillary somewhere in the "means testing" and "chained CPI camp" and commenting that "raising the cap" well that's just "one possibility". Yes it is, just not HER possibility.

They differ on healthcare which Bernie sees as a RIGHT of all Americans requiring a single payer system, whereas Hillary still sees an important role for private for-profit insurance brokers.

They differ on TRADE AGREEMENTS.

They differ on the MINIMUM WAGE.

They differ on diplomacy vs war, and how to handle the situation in the Middle East.

They differ on access to a college education for our youth.

I could go on but whats the use. Tell me, do you HONESTLY believe only 1% separates these two candidates on policy? 1%? Really?

[KingCharlemagne]

130. All leftists must 'hope for the best, but plan for the worst.' I know I am, although

I am currently working for Sanders' nomination.

Imagine a President Trump leading a bi-cameral Republican Congress. That should scare the shit out of every good-faith user of this board.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

42. They voted for Bush. Twice.

There's plenty of ignorance and naivete out there to go around, apparently.

[Spider Jerusalem]

62. Bush lost the popular vote in 2000 (n/t)

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

68. And what difference did that make in the end?

He lost by half a million votes (1/2% of the total cast). The fact that there's 51 million people who thought he was worth a vote in 2000, and 62 million in 2004 is clear evidence that Trump, Cruz, or anyone else in the clown car could win against either Clinton or Sanders. Clinton will have a much harder time given her net negative approval rating, there's simply no arguing against that.

[Beowulf]

61. Forty years ago Democrats were saying the American public would never vote for a shallow movie actor

for president. That line of thought worked out well for us.

[maddiemom]

103. And since then, the Repugs have gone and sainted that shallow actor...

although you can pretty much trace the U.S. downward spiral to his time in office. Poor old Ike, a far superior president, is forgotten unless his party condemns him as too liberal. Hell, even Pres. Obama claimed to have admired the Gipper (???). I'm a senior citizen now, and just hoping to hang on long enough to see Reagan justifiably forgotten, if not (too much to hope for) put in his proper place. Future generations should find the RWR worship very sad for the Republicans,but, unfortunately tragic for the country. Is it true that the air traffic controllers and pilots still refer to Reagan National Airport as just NATIONAL Airport?

[raging moderate]

176. Years ago, when I was a tourist in DC, several people around town told me that.

I had identified myself as an Obama supporter, and when I said I had flown in to Reagan airport, they winked and told me, "That's National Airport to us."

[Carolina]

302. certainly to long term DCers

it will always be Washington National Airport or simply National. I grew up in DC and lived there for nearly 41 years. When I fly back there now, to the place that will always be the home of my heart, I fly into National and correct anyone who calls it Reagan. Using a twist on words/names, I say it was already, appropriately named for the 1st president

Reagan was awful and when the repukes renamed my home town airport, I was appalled. If you ever have the chance to visit, the old terminal building is still there engraved: Washington National Airport

[Logical]

185. Have you seen her "trust" numbers? nt

[Fast Walker 52]

241. I sure would like to think that

I just don't know any more. I don't see how the GOP is a freaking viable party after all the horrendous shit they've done... and yet, they have a significant chance of winning the presidency.

[Kittycat]

10. Well written

It bothers me that our party is in this position.

[onehandle]

11. Naderspeak lives. nt

[Jester Messiah]

13. If the Dem candidate that year had been strong enough to win his home state...

Nader wouldn't have been a problem. Learn from history. Put up a better candidate.

[Ned_Devine]

31. exactamundo

[Buzz cook]

74. There was massive voter suppression in Tennessee during the 2000 election

But thanks for bringing back a right wing talking point.

http://www.alternet.org/story/10589/vote_fraud_in_tennessee%3A_worse_than_florida

[Jester Messiah]

75. Make excuses, or win an election. You can do one or the other, but not both. [nt]

[Buzz cook]

312. Sweet Jezuz

You really are a naif. Read up on election 2000 till then, I hear your mommy calling you.

[Jester Messiah]

315. Really? That's not what I hear.

I hear someone who just ran out of ammo resorting to "mommy" talk to try and cover for it. Why don't you run home and get your shine box.

[Buzz cook]

317. Ammo? here read this

http://dailyhowler.com/

Start in 1999 and work your way forward and you can see it unfold.

Or you could read the book here.

http://www.howhegotthere.blogspot.com/

If you want shorter forms there are these.
http://www.michaelparenti.org/stolenelections.html

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2012/06/yes-bush-v-gore-did-steal-the-election.html

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0120-04.htm

But wait why am I posting this when you obviously didn't read my first link. Thus naif.
Your a person that believes stuff you "here" and don't want to bother learning anything that might shake your certitude.

[Jester Messiah]

321. Oh look a bunch of blogspam.

Buzz off, Buzz.

[Buzz cook]

335. So you're not even going to make the effort?

Not surprising.

[BlueMTexpat]

44. +1!

SSDD

[frylock]

52. Lieberspeak fail.

[HooptieWagon]

203. More Democrats voted for Bush than Nader.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

205. Well said.

[amborin]

254. +10000

[Carolina]

305. K&R

Excellent post and oh, so true!

[workinclasszero]

14. Hillary will be president or Trump/Cruz will

[Helen Borg]

19. But she loses badly to Cruz...

That is what the polls say. Everything else is pure speculation.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

85. The polls say she is a whole eight tenth of a percentage point

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_cruz_vs_clinton-4034.html#polls


The polls indicate she is a whole eight tenth of a percentage point behind Ted Cruz, Ms. Borg, but please don't let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

[Helen Borg]

90. I hope she is proud of that.

Sanders, on the other hand...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

98. Ms Borg, you just said she loses badly to Cruz

Helen Borg (2,843 posts)
19. But she loses badly to Cruz...

That is what the polls say. Everything else is pure speculation.

Instead of saying "I was wrong. Thank you for pointing it out" , you doubled down.

If you believe losing by 8/10 of a percentage point "is losing badly" there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion:


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_cruz_vs_clinton-4034.html#polls

[Helen Borg]

115. She is losing by more than 8/10th of a point.

She is losing by at least 3 points.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

136. The aggregate polling suggests she is losing by 8/10 of a point

Helen Borg
115. She is losing by more than 8/10th of a point.
View profile
She is losing by at least 3 points.

The aggregate polling suggests she is losing to Cruz by 8/10 of a point:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_cruz_vs_clinton-4034.html#polls


I will leave it readers of our posts to decide whether they believe you or their lyin eyes.

[Helen Borg]

138. We can go on discussing by how much Hillary is losing.

That is fine with me.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

147. As Mao said "before you speak, investigate."

Helen Borg (2,843 posts)
19 But she loses badly to Cruz...

That is what the polls say. Everything else is pure speculation.

The polls don't say what you said they say:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_cruz_vs_clinton-4034.html#polls


If you believe losing by 8/10 of a percent is losing badly there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion, lol

[Helen Borg]

149. For an electable candidate, she is losing badly

[DemocratSinceBirth]

151. You made an erroneous claim.

Helen Borg (2,843 posts)
19 But she loses badly to Cruz...

That is what the polls say. Everything else is pure speculation.

The polls don't say what you said they say:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_cruz_vs_clinton-4034.html#polls


If you believe losing by 8/10 of a percent is losing badly there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion.


You made an erroneous claim. Do the right thing , admit it, and move on.

[azurnoir]

263. Lol fact is she still loses and in fact by more than Bernie 'lost' to her in Iowa

[DemocratSinceBirth]

264. Non responsive.

But that's the difference between yous (sic) and me. The solid moral instruction I received compels to admit that when I make a mistake I admit it and move on.

The solid moral instruction I received also compels me to not allow myself to be bullied.

[azurnoir]

265. what are you even talking about? I pointed out a fact and perhaps you should check username

you're responding to and apply some of those morals you were taught

[DemocratSinceBirth]

266. The genesis of this whole sub thread...

The genesis of this whole sub thread can be found here:

Helen Borg (2,843 posts)
19. But she loses badly to Cruz...


That is what the polls say. Everything else is pure speculation.

I had the temerity to suggest that assertion was ludicrous in light of the fact that losing by 8/10 of a percent is not losing badly, ergo



http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_cruz_vs_clinton-4034.html

[azurnoir]

268. I know the genesis I followed it to the point where I replied to you

but it's a fractions quibble nothing more which was my point anyway you slice it Hillary lost

[DemocratSinceBirth]

269. By 8/10 of a point.

If you believe an 8/10 of a percentage point deficit is insurmountable there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion.

[Feeling the Bern]

193. You're going to use a man whose policies and actions caused the deaths of at least 100 million

Chinese from 1933-1976? Not a good person to quote.

Mao also said of people who try to commit suicide during the cultural revolution: "Those who commit suicide, do not attempt to stop them. China is such a populous country. It's not like we can do without a few souls."

You're quoting a man that during the policy of Zhen Fan, dictated that at least .1% of the Chinese population needed to be executed "to sedate the people's anger."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

199. That's a classic ad hominem fallacy.

Last edited Sat Feb 20, 2016, 02:01 AM - Edit history (1)

Attacking the messenger*

Before you speak, investigate

If Pol Pot said "holding your breath for one hour can cause death" his advice would be just as sound as if Socrates said it.





* As an aside, I see too much of it here...

[Feeling the Bern]

209. You can use the worst mass murderer in human history to validate your points

And I am not attacking you, but if you think I am, you need to develop thicker skin. This is politics and it's not for the weak.

"Seek Truth From Facts" - Deng Xiaoping

[DemocratSinceBirth]

233. If you believe

And I am not attacking you, but if you think I am, you need to develop thicker skin. This is politics and it's not for the weak.

If you believe talking tough on the internet makes you strong there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion. It's how you carry yourself in real life that counts.

"Seek Truth From Facts" - Deng Xiaoping

And it's interesting you would quote Deng Xiaoping after criticizing me for quoting Chairman Mao when they are both products of the same totalitarian regime.

[Feeling the Bern]

234. And I live in that country. . .and my wife is from that country

And if you think Deng is the same as Mao, this conversation is over.

Dig those heels in!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

235. The point was that neither is a small d democrat.

We are straying. The point is when one attacks the messenger, regardless of who the messenger is, and not his or her argument, one has committed an ad hominem fallacy.


The irony is that somebody made a bogus claim, I called them out, and now I am getting bullied. I don't cotton to bullies, on the internet and more importantly, in real life.

[cui bono]

168. LOL!

.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

175. Please see Post 137.

Thank you in advance.





P.S. if you are looking for an internet piñata I respecftully submit you move along. That's not how DemocratSinceBirth rolls.

[A Simple Game]

171. Add in the 0.2% she beat Bernie by in Iowa and she is still losing.

But gee losing by 0.8 tenths of a point ain't bad is it? Wait what do you call someone that loses by 0.8 tenths of a point???

[erpowers]

257. Margin of Error

What is the margin of error in the poll? If the margin of error is 3% than she is in a tie with Cruz. Also, how many of the people who were questioned for the poll know Ted Cruz's stances. Polls are not the most reliable way to judge an election. Anyone can make any poll say what they want the poll to say.

[Perogie]

210. What's more important are the trend lines

Hillary's goes down and Cruz goes up. That's bad news.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

232. She said Hillary loses badly...She doesn't . It is what it is...

[Perogie]

237. Just pointing out trend lines.

[maddiemom]

117. I doubt any Democratic candidate will lose BADLY to Cruz.

Listening to and looking at him for several months will be ever more off-putting to anyone other than his very wealthy and/or blindly "evangelical" fan base. Either that, or he'll have to do some very fancy bobbing and weaving to win other rational voters. Hopefully it won't ever come to that. Having just become old enough to vote against him in 1968, and really hating Richard Nixon, I'd give Tricky Dick a huge hug and all my support if he were running against Ted Cruz.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

54. I hope that's not the case, because the OP is correct.

If the OP is correct, and if you're correct, and leaves us with Ted Cruz as President. Let's hope your prediction is off.

[amborin]

170. nope; she would lose big to either

[rhett o rick]

201. That will only be true if Goldman-Sachs' money speaks louder than The People.

I would hope all Democrats would choose helping people over helping Goldman-Sachs.

[Waiting For Everyman]

15. 100% agree and I've said it too going back a year ago.

She will never be President.

Too. Many. People. Hate. Her.

But I completely agree, your analysis is spot on. The Repub candidate is going to win the South. We all know this.

[Helen Borg]

20. Polls speak clearly!

She is hated.

[MissDeeds]

40. Unfortunately, that's true

and many within the Democratic Party don't like her, don't trust her, and won't vote for her, regardless of how much her supporters try to encourage them to do so.

Hillary has too much baggage and there are too many scandals and rumors of scandals. Her candidacy in the GE would be mired down in deflecting those concerns. Nominating her would be a failed strategy for winning the WH.

[Nedsdag]

296. She has more baggage than LAX

Plus she won't win swing states like Ohio and Florida.

[californiabernin]

16. if she wins the nomination, republicans will have already won.

Every objective analysis as well as polling data reflects that harsh reality

[abelenkpe]

59. +1000 nt

[roguevalley]

84. she can't attack Trump on money because she took bribes too. She can't attack him on a lot

of issues because she is equally guilty. What kind of campaign is left? I'm not as evil as him?

[abelenkpe]

126. "We're not as bad as the other guy"

Wasn't that the strategy used during the mid terms? Not very exciting.

[A Simple Game]

173. I think some went with "I'm a better Republican than the Republican", that didn't work either. n/t

[amborin]

262. +100000

[Nedsdag]

297. When a Republican runs against Republican Light, everyone knows who will win there.

See the 2014 midterm elections.

[Cleita]

18. You are right. If she becomes the Democratic candidate she will

lose to whoever the Republican is. The fact that seems to be emerging is that many who will vote for Bernie, will not vote for Hillary and will vote for the Republican candidate or a third party candidate or not vote at all. My casual conversations with people about the election seem to be pointing in that direction.

I wish those who can will do focus groups or polling about this among Bernie supporters to get some empirical evidence of this before the primaries heat up. The DNC needs to look harder at this, yet I find they are not looking at things realistically.

[Autumn Colors]

28. I'm one of those people

I will not vote for her. I'll either write Bernie's name in or vote Green Party. (I'm in Connecticut, which goes blue anyway.)

Also, I'm in my mid-50s, female, and have voted straight-ticket Democratic Party every election since I turned 18 (just in case you want my demographics).

I will NOT vote for her.

[MissDeeds]

46. Same here

I won't vote against my conscience, and like you, I've been a Democrat all my life.

[classykaren]

166. & 3 in my house will not vote for her either

[truegrit44]

178. Count 2 more me and my husband...........

he actually said the more hears her the more he hates her and would actually vote for Trump before her! I'm not that intense about it, but I just won't vote.

[Autumn Colors]

181. You could vote green or write in Bernie's name (nt)

[Optimism]

206. Dang ...

I'm a male, but other than that I could have written your post word for word! Lifelong Dem ... helped work for McGovern when I was just 12(!) ... got to see the great Jimmy Carter up close at a yuuuuuge L.A. rally the very day before he was elected ... enthusiastically caucused for Obama in '08 and even flew across country to be a dot in that yuuuuuuge inauguration crowd. Sadly, because of many of his policies and cabinet, I ended up voting (in my solid Blue state) for Dr. Jill Stein last time. I WANT a female President ... I just want her to be Elizabeth Warren! Oh how very happy I'd be if Bernie picks her for VP. But make no mistake, I'm all about the policies. Bernie's are just want I want. His values match mine. And I'm far from alone ... there's a real yearning afoot in the country to go where Bernie wants to take us. If this becomes a wave election as I'm feeling it could, the Congress could be ours as well. I dunno, am I being too optimistic ?!

[Lizzie Poppet]

259. Nor will I (but it won't matter in my state).

Oregon's not going to go with the GOP nominee, regardless...so I can vote my conscience w/o regret. Hillary is unacceptable. I insist on an actual liberal.

[Carolina]

306. I'm one of those people, too

and in my sixties. Always voted for the Democratic ticket, but I can no longer vote for the not-so-lesser-of -two-evils. Living in a red state now, it won't matter; but it's important to rebuild the real Democrat Party and wrest it from 3rd way DINO corporatists.

[Buzz cook]

313. The republican party thanks you in advance. nt

nt

[chwaliszewski]

184. Same Here

I cannot, in good conscience, vote for her or any Republican. I will write in Bernie's name on the ballot. It's more important to me to know that I voted for the candidate I wanted instead of the lesser of two evils. To me, that's a wasted vote.

[redruddyred]

186. i'm not ready to go that route just yet

but i'm meeting these people too; i agree the DNC is irresponsibly not taking the temperature of voters in this country.

[Binkie The Clown]

207. How many Deaniacs do you know who redirected all that energy and enthusiasm to Kerry?

As I recall, when Dean got shot down, the massive energy of the Deaniacs just dissipated like smoke in the wind. Wherever it when, it didn't propel Kerry to victory.

[Cleita]

208. I was one of them. I still remember the disappointment.

On edit: I should add to this. I went on and canvassed for Kerry. My heart wasn't in it, but I carried on. Many of the people I canvassed had been Deaniacs and expressed their disappointment, but promised to forge ahead and vote for Kerry. Somehow, I don't think Kerry's heart was in it for him to give up so easily.

I know, I will probably hold my nose and vote for the Democrat, however, I will not work for nor contribute to anyone other than Bernie.

[Binkie The Clown]

215. I was a Deaniac, and it was a fellow Deniac who brought me to DU.

After that disappointing election I wandered away from politics, forgot my original DU username and password, and didn't post here for many years, until I created a new account a while back.

I hate to say it, but I don't know if I have the energy to go through another round of settling for second best. I'm 70 and right now it's Bernie or bust for me. Then I'm going to retire from politics and give my blood pressure a rest.

[eridani]

214. Had Kerry voted against the Ireq war, he would have won

Had Clinton voted against the Iraq war, she'd be in her last year of office.

[quaker bill]

230. my wife volunteered full time

and I worked for him part time. There was never a chance that we would be able to drag him across the finish line. He was the wrong choice for that time.

[Autumn Colors]

278. Yup, that's me

Former Deaniac here.

[MohRokTah]

21. .

[seaotter]

33. I hope you see fit to use just as many emoji while you support Bernie this fall.

[MohRokTah]

37. .

[seaotter]

41. You should talk to a doctor about those coughing fits, could be serious.

[libdem4life]

104. I was wondering how he computes how many of those thingys is enough? I mean, does he count.

does he wait until the spirit moves, does a cloud pass by? It's clear the intelligent conversation has gone missing. Just curious about why people do some of the weird things they do.

[LiberalLovinLug]

122. Brilliant as usual

[frylock]

53. The kind of insightful analysis we've all come to expect.

[MohRokTah]

56. .`

[WillyT]

22. K & R !!!

[Betty Karlson]

23. K&R for truth!

[cantbeserious]

24. IMHO - A Vote For HRC In The Primary Is A Vote For Trump In The General Election

eom

[Loudestlib]

25. In addtion to your points.

We win when democratic voter turn out is high. Young people won't turn out to vote for Hillary but Republicans will. Republicans love to vote against something and Hillary will drive them to the polls.

[Amimnoch]

26. So, I'm curious.

Just a few months ago, when all of the polls showed the complete opposite, you did such a great job of driving that point home then as well I'm sure.

I'm just having a hell of a time finding that evidence.

[Dawgs]

32. The polls are the last reason she will never be President

Trust, disapprovals, and history are better reasons.

[Amimnoch]

60. Interesting thing "Trust"

Many threads here where people who've actually worked for Clinton, and those that know her support her, and it's presented as a "Bad" thing.

Yet, after all those decades as a Representative and a Senator, Sanders can't even pull endorsements from his own coworkers of all that time.

IE.. The ones that KNOW Clinton support her. The that KNOW Sanders support Clinton.

[roguevalley]

86. bernie doesn't get endorsements because they know he'll cut the gravy train off and in this

election year, endorsements from the problem people are part of the problem. Endorsements from politicians who ARE the problem are worthless. Also, polls that don't have cell phone input are also worthless.

[Amimnoch]

107. Interesting hypothesis. Let's run with that for a second.

I'm a believer in giving the benefit of doubt.

So, let's assume you are completely correct here. ALL of these Senators and Representatives are in it only for the money, and that is why they are supporting Hillary.

The 39 Senators supporting Hillary, and 0 supporting Bernie..
The 194 Representatives supporting Hillary, The 3 supporting Bernie..

Alllll the ones for Hillary are in it for the money.

Do tell, if that is the case, and Sanders has worked with these people for decades, is he ignorant of the fact that they are all about the $$?? I'd surmise that to be very unlikely.

So, If they are in it for the money, and Sanders knows that, then Sanders MUST know that he is NEVER going to get his agenda passed, and is making false campaign promises that he knows he can't keep.

I'd say that whole trust argument just went out the window if you are right and all these endorsements for Hillary are really just about the money.

Sorry to burst that bubble, but either they support Hillary because they think she's the better choice which means she really IS the better choice.

OR

They support Hillary for the money and Bernie is a big ole liar, and making promises he'd have to know he can't keep..

OR (most unlikely)

Bernie is completely ignorant on how the US government works, doesn't know how congress works. Really believes that, despite his own co-workers shunning him, he can actually make those campaign promises come true.


Ahhh, I'm afraid that none of those options make him at all appealing for my own vote.

Do you perhaps have an example roll call vote on the 115th congress that might prove me wrong? I'd actually like to be feeling the bern with you. I just can't get past the BS to feel it.

[roguevalley]

118. I don't care about changing your mind. The people are pissed at the establishment and that means

the politicians that recycle themselves over and over while we get the bill. As for your assumptions that he's ignorant about how things work, that is highly laughable. He's been a mayor and in congress for 33 years. I would think he knows a helluva lot. You might google it.

The endorsements come from the establishment circling the wagons because the gravy train is going to end when Bernie wins. As for the rest of your remarks I will wait for tomorrow night when he shellacks her backside in Nevada and moves onward. Given that she said that 80% of Nevadans are white, I don't have great hopes for her. If there is any BS here, its not coming from him or me.

[Amimnoch]

121. You don't care?

You don't care if your candidate is being a typical politician and lying through his teeth.. making false promises.. offering false hope? All while using a party he's been disdainful of?

You don't think he's ignorant of government? I agree (and said as much in my post), it's the most unlikely of the 3 possibilities given his background. I like laying out all possibilities for consideration though.

Do you have an alternate possibility?

Is there a possibility of the 115th congress making his campaign promises a reality? If so, I am all ears.

[redruddyred]

188. thanks for offering a substantive counterpoint here

The Point of the sanders campaign is provide a leftwing counterbalance to the tea party. it's about telling folks the truth about Walmart and Goldman Sachs. it's about helping apathetic voters see the big picture, and become engaged.

no one really believes that sanders can get all these things done, but we believe that, given the opportunity, he would. with hillary on the other hand we are not so sure.

i like sanders' ideas of playing hardball with mitch mcconnell. that's what we need right now. the name of the game is theater: i respect obama's coolheaded approach but see where that's got him.

[NastyRiffraff]

142. I wish I could K&R this post!

Brilliant analysis, Amimnoch!

[MADem]

255. OUCH-well argued! nt

[Enthusiast]

109. Yooge plus one!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

125. And in aggregate?

Your points may be good, but there's a bottom line, of sorts. Check the polling to see who trust whom, and you'll see what I mean.

[Amimnoch]

139. In aggregate? Fair enough, paint me the whole picture.

I am open to seeing the light. I am onboard for seeing Bernie's plan come to life.

Where is the Senate and house that will make this happen?

Agreed that the Republicans are NOT going to be onboard with his plan?

He's laid out his plan, yet the Democrats that are in office have soundly rejected him endorsement wise.

In this 2016 election cycle, who are the Senators and Representatives HE endorses to get into office to make his plans happen??

Where is the revolution push to get those people who he needs to make his plan happen elected?

Are we not the people of intellect and reason? Isn't hyperbole, obfuscation, and pandering to the baser instincts rather than logic and reason supposed to be the tools or Republicans and teabaggers??

Teabaggers are not as smart as liberals and progressives.. of that I 100% believe in! But this Bernie revolution.. It's backwards! Teabag politics is bass ackwards, but their approach was the one thing about their movement that they did right. They didn't go after the presidency. The fielded Teabagger challenges to incumbent Representatives that didn't align with their agenda, they fielded teabagger challenges to incumbent Senators that didn't align with their agenda. For all of the dumbasses in their masses, the one thing they did very successfully was move the Congress far to the right.

THAT's what we need to do if we want the changes Bernie proposes. Making him President without expanding this movement is setting that man up for severe failure.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

141. I was kind of limiting my comments to the question of what the public thinks about the

...trustworthiness of candidates. Sorry, I should've communicated that more clearly.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

211. Unless she plans to meet every potential voter, your statement is really bad news for Clinton.

If people who know her like her, but people who don't know her don't like or trust her, it seems to me that she'd better get busy meeting every American over the age of 18 in a real hurry.

[SheenaR]

79. The word poll

does not appear in my post.

Thus this has nothing to do with polls then or polls now.

It has to do with her. Evidence is everywhere on that.

[tk2kewl]

156. time as experienced by humans only passes into the future

the trajectory of Hillary's poll numbers is in the wrong direction and not likely to be reversible

[vdogg]

27. Bookmarking

This'll be fun to read in November.

[roguevalley]

87. exactly, vdogg. :D

[joshcryer]

164. I've bookmarked dozens and dozens of "Trump is a winner" posts.

[TCJ70]

344. Is it fun to read now? N/t

[Autumn Colors]

30. Here's something Hillary EXCELS at!!!

One of Hillary's best talents is GOTV for the Republican Party.

[tk2kewl]

34. the right wing haters hate Hillary as least as much as Obama

they will be very motivated to vote against her

[NastyRiffraff]

145. The right wing haters will not vote

for any Democrat, Bernie included.

[tk2kewl]

148. question is how many will get out to vote

[closeupready]

35. I'm not voting for her, I'll say that.

Voters have to do what they have to do. Maybe she will win, who knows. I'm starting to feel like I need to pull away - not just from DU, but from politics.

K&R

[PatrickforO]

36. I agree with you and fully expect Clinton to be indicted for criminal

behavior around weapons sales to countries that donated to the Clinton Foundation. I also believe that Republicans in the State Department are waiting until she gets the nomination so the indictment can be a nice October surprise.

[Merryland]

64. You could be right.

It's pretty amazing how some on this board downplay these very real investigations into very serious issues.

[CharlotteVale]

39. K&R

[Bigredhunk]

43. I like both of our cadidates

Last edited Sat Feb 20, 2016, 01:54 AM - Edit history (1)

People throwing shit at Bernie or Hillary on this site makes me want to puke. Save it for the republicans.

1) I believe either of our candidates will win.

2) Let's say Hillary is hated. She's been dumped on for 30 years, so I'm not surprised. She's supposed to be hated, given the treatment. But if she is hated, strange that she was recently voted most admired woman in the world for the 20th time. Are both things true?

3) Bernie doesn't have Hillary's negatives. Does it remain that way if he's the Democratic candidate for president in the fall? Or once he becomes the candidate, do all of the bullshit communist commercials and talking points from faux and talk radio bring his #'s down (and drive his negatives up)? The bullshit socialist stuff worked against President Obama (at least it worked on the crowd for whom it was intended to work). Bernie's never been the guy out front. You get treated differently in that position.

4) Given #3 I'm not sure how much I trust polling for November right now.

5) I want Cruz to be their nominee. I don't see any scenario under which lots of people would vote for him. Nobody likes him. He's creepy looking/acting. I think either of our candidates would mop the floor with him. Trump scares me more b/c I could see the dumbasses I run into various places (bars, restaurants) -- people who don't care about voting/aren't interested in politics -- turning out to vote for him b/c "America will be great" and "China will pay for a wall to keep Mexicans out" and "We're going to win" and "We're the best." "This program will be the best and that idea will be the best." Morons voting for things they don't understand, believing things that are complete bullshit - that scares me. Cruz doesn't rally anybody but the jesus freaks.

[maddiemom]

123. Very well argued.

I only disagree in that Trump scares me LESS than Cruz. Cruz has been too blatantly hungry from the moment he won national office (the general public didn't know him before). He obviously believes he's God's gift to the world, whether or not he's really such a true believer (either he really is, and believes he's the New Messiah, or he's running a great scam on the evangelicals). I don't know which is worse, but both are scary. Trump seems to just want to further massage his ego by proving he COULD win the nomination. If he also wants to prove he could be elected; worse case scenario: he'd hire some excellent managers who aren't as fascist as he's presenting himself, and kick back to enjoy the ultimate ego trip.

[Bigredhunk]

165. Yup

Cruz scares me more as a president. I just don't think he'll ever be president. Trump scares me more as a candidate. I think he has more "dumbass" (or "bubba&quot appeal. I see more people coming out to vote if he's their candidate.

[SheenaR]

189. We would beat Cruz

I hope it's him

[zappaman]

45. Oh

[randome]

70. Shirley has spoken!

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[msanthrope]

187. Don't call me Shirley...

https://m.

#

[MissDeeds]

47. Excellent post, SheenaR

K&R

[Duval]

49. I agree. It's unfortunate that she has brought this on herself.

[Proud Public Servant]

65. Would that be the same Nate Silver who,

as recently as six weeks ago, was giving Trump no chance to be the GOP nominee?

Silver's smart, but it remains to be seen whether his model works with this decidedly unusual election season.

[AzDar]

51. Truth bomb... Incoming!!

[Agschmid]

55. At this point I agree on one thing...

I doubt she will be the nominee, but that's about all we agree on coming out of this.

[hamsterjill]

58. Thank you for your opinion.

I'll not attack it. You have every right to form your own opinion.

I have every right to disagree, which I do.

If more people on DU could simply leave things at that (i.e., "we disagree&quot rather than having to fight it out to the death, DU would be a more stimulating and enlightened place. Only time will tell who the nominee will be and who the ultimate next President will be. There is much time between today and that decision and many things can change and happen.

It's not a bad thing for there to be disagreement. It fosters discussion and creates new ideas and agendas.

[Bok_Tukalo]

63. Trump will not win the Republican nomination

I don't know who will, but it won't be him. He has a 35% ceiling in the Republican primary of Democrats who hate nothing more than Democrats.

[cali]

66. Agreed

[ccinamon]

67. Excellent analysis....

well reasoned and with facts!

[Chalco]

69. But, when she wins will you support her?

I will.

[azurnoir]

71. as I've been saying she might win the battle but she'll lose us the war

[jomin41]

72. Hillary is too risky for the GE

She has a knapsack of baggage and if just one of them turns out to be a stink-bomb, we are SUNK, if it is against Trump, imho, but Bernie, on the other hand, looks like the proverbial white knight on a charger, IN COMPARISON to ALL other candidates and has a history of honesty and integrity that will make it difficult for the "enemy" to find much to get any purchase on. He's the real deal. Bernie will beat Cruz. Cruz might beat HRC. I don't want to take the chance. Why should I?

[George II]

73. We need a "yawn" smilie!

[Arizona Roadrunner]

76. Credibility counts!

Clinton has little if any credibility. First of all she and her husband come from the New Democrats which aligned themselves with corporate America, NAFTA, Welfare "reform", Loss of regulations of Wall Street etc. are just a few of their "errors".

Secondly, look at her positions on TPP. First of all she was for it, now she is "currently" not in favor of it. The US Chamber of Commerce has told their members not to worry, she will be "currently" in favor of it after the election.

Thirdly, you are right, if Trump is the nominee, since he is self funded essentially, he will go after her speeches and amount received, decisions she made at the State Dept. and then subsequent donars of beneficiaries of those decisions to the Clinton foundation etc.

The worst part if she is the nominee, the down ticket will lose big time because more people are independent of mind even if a party member and therefore they will not vote. As one person told me, "why do I want to vote for Wall Street light and for a person I can't trust"? "Fall in love with candidates during primaries and fall in line during the general election" won't work this time around.

[Depaysement]

78. I actually thought the opposite until yesterday

I thought she would be elected President. It's what the TPTB want. Certain members of the Oligarchy would be able to call themselves "progressive" while continuing to conduct a class war against the rest of citizens of the country.

Then again her latest faux pas at the Town Hall really makes me wonder if she is just going to blow it. She told Wall Street to cut it out? Please. That's a lie of monumental proportions or secretly true, making her complicit, as TheProgressive so eloquently stated in a recent OP.

[tokenlib]

192. Your third sentence is the absolute truth about the Third Way/ New Democrats..

The Oligarchy can call themselves progressive while robbing the masses blind..I like it.

[Depaysement]

228. Thanks!

It's rampant where I live, so it is an easy observation for me to make.

[blue neen]

82. I believe that you have violated the TOS.

FWIW.

[IdaBriggs]

88. I am curious. How? nt

[blue neen]

91. I believe it falls under depressing or undermining turnout for Democratic candidates.

IMHO.

[SheenaR]

95. As much as I may have an ego

I do not have an effect on voter turnout

This in no way would keep someone from voting.

[blue neen]

110. There are a number of posters in this thread

who took the opportunity of your OP to say that they will not vote for Hillary Clinton, no matter what.

No matter what...and that is in response to your OP. That's a pretty divisive statement for someone to make--that they would not support a possible Democratic party's nominee, IF that comes to pass. So, it is a mystery how any of this could be construed as helping to elect Democrats, which is the stated purpose of this board.

You said what you wanted to say and had your opinion. I courteously stated mine. Thank you for your time and good luck.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

124. The OP gave analysis. The OP is not responsible for the words of others. It's just that simple.

[Autumn Colors]

314. The OP did NOT influence me in this decision

It was already made beforehand.

I do know that if what I stated comes to pass, that I will then not be welcome on DU between the convention and election day and will have to go elsewhere to support my candidate.

Until then, I'm merely supporting my chosen candidate in the primaries.

[IdaBriggs]

102. I repeat: How?

I see Democrats as being a reality based party. This means we have to discuss "reality versus fantasy versus wishes". This post, in my mind, does those things.

The reality is that certain electoral votes *always* can be counted on to go red or blue regardless of demographic makeup. We also have purple states that are contestable. Obvious the goal is to campaign/win in the entire country, but at the end of the day, the one with the most electoral votes becomes President.

Math is reality based. The post looks at math, and the analysis is that one candidates strongest supports (assuming people of color will turn out in higher numbers than other demographics) will be overridden because they are in traditional red states is kind of a big deal.

A candidate for President has to appeal to a wide range of the voting demographic, including the other side, in order to get that majority. Each candidate has strengths AND WEAKNESSES and this is the time for a candid discussion about those as we "interview" them for this very prestigious position.

Primary passions are an important part of this process, but in my opinion discussing electoral math based on data from polls as well as news reports and debates is not a "voter suppression technique" and therefore does not violate TOS.

If I am wrong, the admins will tombstone. I personally would be disappointed in them for doing so because I think reality based discussions are important.

Full Disclosure: I am currently a Bernie supporter, but have concerns about several issues with him regarding his age/health (making his Vice President pick something I will watch closely), as well as his ability to arm wrestle key legislation through a divided Congress when he was an Independent during his career there. (I liked Obama's Chicago political background - lol!)

I also agree with the fact that both of our candidates have been very easy on each other (Photogate and some slurs thus far notwithstanding - it shows how candidates handle pressure, confrontation and even smears/lies which I am confident won't stop EVER), and believe that the Republican shit storm will be fully unleashed at our candidate when the poo party they have been hosting finally ends and a stinky winner finally emerges from their circus tent.

[blue neen]

111. Thank you for your well-thought and well-explained post, Ida.

There's not enough of that on DU anymore.

I definitely agree with a lot of what you have to say. If you'll catch post #110, there's an explanation of my opinion on this particular OP.

Thanks again.

[californiabernin]

127. Bullshit. We need to have this discussion.

Discussing the strengths and weaknesses of a potential nominee in the GE is critical.

I agree with the op. Those who think she would be the stronger GE candidate have no objective data to back up that assertion.

Those who argue the opposite DO have objective data (see most recent GE polling data). Some potential Trump voters will end up voting for Sanders, and it is a fact Sanders pulls in more independent voters. The enthusiasm gap is also indisputable fact.

[MissDeeds]

174. You're right, we do need to have this discussion

and we need to have it now.

[Odin2005]

157. And here, folks, is an example of Hillarians trying to silence their critics.

[Jester Messiah]

238. Nothing new there. "You can't say that! Moooooommmm!!!!" [nt]

[Nedsdag]

298. Be careful, my friend!

I was reprimanded for calling her supporters names.

small voice: I agree with you!

[Carolina]

307. Exactly, it's rather reminiscent of W and his repukes

with their free speech zones and marginalization of protestors

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

83. I certainly hope you're right.

[beaglelover]

89. BS, this is all your opinion only. Hillary WILL be the next POTUS. Bet on it.

[californiabernin]

133. Data?

Any objective data to show she would be the stronger GE candidate?

[logosoco]

93. I have not been bashing Clinton, even though I am behind Bernie in the primary

but I am almost 100% sure, in my neck of the woods, with a lot of rednecks (we went Obama in 08 but not in 12), Hillary will not win here. Bernie I think has a very good chance.

Anecdotal, yes, but that is how I see the community where I am.

[Fast Walker 52]

242. I'm in Indiana and it's similar

A lot of people just don't like Hillary.

[Zorro]

94. Another day, another Berniac newbie prognosticating about Hillary's unelectability

What a surprise.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

96. Despite all that she is a 10/11 favorite at the offshore betting sites and the VT independent is a

Despite all that she is a 10/11 favorite at the offshore betting sites and the VT independent is a 7-1 underdog


http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/us-politics/us-presidential-election-2016/winner


If you bet on Hillary you have to put up $1,100 to win $1,000.00

If you bet on Bernie you have to put up $145.00 to win $1,000.00.


Let that sink in...

The peer reviewed research search predictions markets are the second best indicators of electoral success:


https://forecasters.org/wp-content/uploads/gravity_forms/7-2a51b93047891f1ec3608bdbd77ca58d/2013/07/Graefe_vote_expectations_ISF.pdf


The best indicator of electoral success is simply asking voters who they think win.


I am not going to do other people's research but when pollsters ask voters who they think will win the presidency in 2016 pluralities and majorities say Hillary will...

If I am prevaricating I am sure someone will provide the data to support such a claim.

[FlatBaroque]

97. Most pleasant thread title EVER /

[SheenaR]

132. Team Clinton did tell us to be realists n/t

[OhZone]

99. Predictwise

Delegate Count
Total Delegates (AP): Clinton 481, Sanders 55 (Clinton +426)
Pledged Delegates: Sanders 36, Clinton 32 (Sanders +4)
Versus Targets (Cook): Clinton +7, Sanders -7.

Next Primary
Nevada caucuses, February 20 (35 pledged delegates).
Targets (Cook): Clinton 16, Sanders 19.


Latest Polls
Nevada (Gravis): Clinton 53, Sanders 47 (Clinton +6).
South Carolina (Monmouth): Clinton 59, Sanders 30 (Clinton +29).
North Carolina (SurveyUSA): Clinton 51, Sanders 36 (Clinton +15).
South Carolina (Seltzer & Co): Clinton 53, Sanders 31 (Clinton +22).
South Carolina (Fox News): Clinton 56, Sanders 28 (Clinton +28).
South Carolina (NBC/WSJ): Clinton 60, Sanders 32 (Clinton +28).

Current Polls-Plus Projections (538)
Nevada: Clinton 72%.
South Carolina: Clinton >99%.
Arkansas: Clinton 99%
Georgia: Clinton >99%.
Oklahoma: Clinton 78%.
Tennessee: Clinton 99%.
Texas: Clinton 98%.
Virginia: Clinton 98%.
Michigan: Clinton 94%.
North Carolina: Clinton 97%.

Current Endorsement Score (538)
Clinton 468, Sanders 3.



But there's MOAR!




That's who people EXPECT to win, one of the most accurate polls there is!



http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/clinton-winner-november-trump-presidency-inspires-anxiety-poll/story?id=36555715

[DemocratSinceBirth]

108. Thank you

The peer reviewed research suggests asking voters who they think will win is the best predictor of electoral success, ergo:

Simple surveys that ask people who they expect to win are among the most
accurate methods for forecasting U.S. presidential elections

https://forecasters.org/wp-content/uploads/gravity_forms/7-2a51b93047891f1ec3608bdbd77ca58d/2013/07/Graefe_vote_expectations_ISF.pdf

[div class="excerpt]

.

DU is a big echo chamber like it corollaries on the other side of the internet aisle. You have folks getting their own views shouted back at them and consequently think everybody thinks like them. For folks who like to hold themselves out as intelligent and worldly it really is a parochial way in which to view the world.

[SheenaR]

135. Thanks for the feedback, charts and graphs

You are a smart guy. No way you can say with confidence that you are comfortable heading into November. I don't denigrate your support. But you know the negatives just as I do for your candidate.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

140. I am a believer and I know God hates soothsayers and mediums so I shy away ...

Last edited Fri Feb 19, 2016, 07:53 PM - Edit history (1)

I am a believer and I know God hates soothsayers and mediums so I shy away from claiming the powers of divination. That being said, the evidence suggests it is ever so slightly more likely than not she will be our next president.

[SheenaR]

154. Lol

And this is why you will never see me go negative on you.

I love the banter. I hope either of our candidates win in November. That's what concerns me.

Always a pleasure

Sheena

[121xGigawatts]

100. I agree..

I think you provide an accurate assessment. It will be more apparent as the primary goes on and she is only picking up states that will go red in the GE.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

101. And neither will Bernie Sanders. I believe Democrats are going to lose this race.

[arlington.mass]

112. A vote for Hillary is a vote for the Republicans

[doc03]

116. Nate silver has Hillary down for 468 endorsements from House Senate and Governors. Bernie

has 3 endorsements from his fellow Senators and that is it. Why after all these years in Washington does Sanders only has three
people willing to back him? Why does Nate Silver have her winning all the primaries, most give her a 98-99% chance?

[SheenaR]

129. Primaries are not GE

And realistically....

How many of the 468 were named when it seemed as though she would easily be the nominee?

And we need more than 468 votes also in the GE. More than 3 too.

[doc03]

150. Sanders has had free ride, he hasn't faced a two year witch hunt by the

Republicans and Fox News. Oh and the 24/7 attack machine by the Bernistas. If he wins the nomination they will show him
with a hammer and sickle on his chest. (I already saw one of those a few days ago in the paper). You will see push polls like
would you vote for Bernie Sanders if you knew he belonged to the Communist Party or worse. Most Americans have no idea
who he is at this time.

[SheenaR]

153. Those attacks

are still not worse than what is in store for Hillary

And two year witch hunt? Do your job right and none what has come her way would have happened.

[doc03]

155. Why is it the Republicans don't even mention Sanders? Seems to me if

they were concerned about running against Sanders they would be on the attack now. That has always been
the Karl Rove game plan for years now, attack early and often.

[doc03]

198. If Bernie is our nominee I hope you are right. If Hillary is

I hope I am right. What ever happens we can't let the Republicans take the WH. If they get the WH and they have a Republican
Congress and SCOTUS we may never recover.

[Herman4747]

250. Bernie seeks a transformative presidency, like FDR's.

Hillary seeks only election victory, and upon obtaining that, incremental improvements. Most Democrats in Congress seek the same thing as her.

[bvar22]

280. Most Democrats in Congress also depend on the DNC, the DSCC, and the DCCC for their re-elections.

They know on which side their biscuit is buttered.

[mark67]

120. ...it seems all of Hillary's glaring faults are only highlighted by the Sander's crowd...

...it's easy to find her seriously flawed when you apply these Republican-type purity tests...

She' s a proven leader. She has experience. And no she's not politically pure. Neither were Roosevelt, Kennedy, and her husband.
It's easy for Sanders to win the purity test when he's been politically relegated to the political sidelines for the past 20 years.

If he's nominated I will vote for him but my concern is that it will McGovern 2016. And I'm too old for that.

[SheenaR]

131. Why is it a Republican type purity test?

I am a lifelong Democrat voicing LEGITIMATE concerns.

I want us to win... Wasn't it your side that told us to be realists?

Political sidelines?

[Carolina]

308. You state that she's a proven leader

Really??? Please tell me what is her signature accomplishment; what has she DONE for people? She has tons of baggage with reams of video footage showing her lies, contradictions, and ever changing positions... not to mention her testiness when challenged and the low road she takes in primary campaigns.

She is part of Bill Clinton's legacy (the two for one, the 8 years of 'experience'): NAFTA, Telecommunications Bill of 1996, Welfare Reform (not), Three Strikes, overturning Glass-Steagall, etc. She and Bill kept Alan Greenspan at the Fed, placed the then Mr. Goldman Sucks himself Robert Reuben as head of Treasury and hired as financial advisor that abominable Wall Streeter Larry Summers (who lost a $billion from Harvard's endowment!). Those three crashed the economy:



And we, the people (the little people, lots of women and children), reaped the whirlwind of that 1999 Act which ended Glass-Steagall and for which every repuke in the Senate voted AYE while every Dem -- save one -- voted NAY. Bill signed it into law anyway, paying no heed to the canary-in-the-mine Dems who said that this dastardly new law would lead to disaster 10 years hence. Sure enough it did, harming families throughout the land. And Wall Street, Hillary's BFF, continues to be such a benefactor for women!

In the Senate, what did she DO? What legislation or amendments to legislation illustrate her initiative or activism on behalf of women and children. The aye votes for IWR, the Patriot Act and Bush's Bankruptcy bill sure were a big help to us all!

Then there was her abysmal management and nasty conduct during the 2008 primary campaign. She had the money, she had the name, she was entitled, she was "in it to win it" and so arrogant that she claimed it would be over by Super Tuesday. But when it wasn't and she was losing, she resorted to the gutter. She praised McCain and derided Obama as someone who only gave pretty speeches. And when the Party urged her to bow out gracefully, she said that she was going to stay in the race through the CA primary because "you never know... remember Bobby Kennedy..." Her insinuation (a veiled wish?) that Obama might be assassinated like RFK was beyond classless and tasteless. It was evil (google Keith Olbermann on that atrocity). And when she finally, gracelessly bowed out, she did so on condition that the Obama organization and DNC pay off her campaign debt. Some management skills, just like her Wall Street benefactors who f--- things up, then expect others to pay for the disaster created.

As SOS, she was also terrible. Honduras, Libya and Syria are a mess. But HRC, the consummate pro-MIC corporatist, never saw a war she didn't like. And last I checked, war is not good for women, children or men!

This is HRC's history. So, please tell me what she has DONE that is positive or constructive? What is this record she always harkens back to in her me, me, me, mine, mine, mine debate responses and that her supporters parrot? She's in it for herself, she plays sexist gender politics, she lies about her alleged record, she changes her mind with the political winds, she panders, she pads her pockets, and she is third way triangulator to her core.

[Ino]

318. Bravo!

They throw out these empty phrases all the time proven leader, most experienced, etc., but there are no facts to back those claims.

[amborin]

128. K&R Hillary WILL NEVER BE PRESIDENT. SHE WOULD LOSE THE GE IN A LANDSLIDE

and take down the Democratic party at the same tiime

[PoliticAverse]

134. Trump is viewed as "genuine"? Perhaps but he is viewed by many as a genuine...

A-hole. Polls repeatedly show him with very high negatives. I know many people
that enjoy watching his antics but would never choose him as President.

[SheenaR]

137. It's sad but true

I run into these people every day. In a Blue State.

It's honestly mindboggling.

[Hoyt]

143. She'll look pretty good against a GOPer. Running against fantasy promises is a bit tougher.

[manchu]

146. Interesting

There are a lot of good points in your post. But I would ask these key questions; How can Sanders back up what he's saying? He cant promise free college tuition, free health care and lot of the other things he's claiming. I do agree with holding Wall Street accountable and providing more oversight on the banks and that's something he can do. The rest needs congressional approval and unless there is a rash of deaths or retirements, the House is going to stay in Repub hands. That means half of his promises go up in smoke, and in my opinion Bernie knows this. That's why I agree with Hillary in being pragmatic and not make promises he cant keep. You also wondered what can the right do to get at Bernie? Never underestimate how people will react to the word socialist. The common theme which would resonate is "He's a socialist who wants to raise taxes and give your hard earned money away to moochers who want free stuff". Simple, yet effective. Plus who knows what else they have in the tank which they haven't used on him yet? Hillary may be a trouble magnet but I doubt anything new comes out. Benghazi, emails, speeches, fbi stuff, its all out there so its not going to come as any shock, plus her name brand is well known to independents. There is always an irrational fear of the unknown and to a lot of people Bernie is still an unknown. Just some thoughts.

[joshcryer]

160. I must admit, I'm continually astounded by faith in Trump.

Seriously, even people who hate him thinks he has a shot, it's incredible.

[ucrdem]

163. Hey.

[ucrdem]

162. Yes, a lot of people swallow RW spin hook line and sinker. Even here. But it's still just spin.

When you get down to brass tacks, like gun control and immigration, Hillary wins and Bernie joins the Anderson-Paul-Perot also-ran hall of fame.

[immoderate]

167. Clinton is a supply-sider. That's my problem with her.

--imm

[amborin]

169. she's such a blatant liar and people can see that; she would lose humiliatingly in the GE

[bigwillq]

172. I hope you're right (nt)

[ReallyIAmAnOptimist]

179. When the postmortem of this primary is written...

... I think it will be confirmed that HRC was less electable in 2016 than she was in 2008 when she lost the nomination to Obama (another so-called miracle underdog who came from behind to unseat the 'inevitable' candidate).

[Lamonte]

180. 2016 election

If voters want to vote for a party that promises to privatize their Social Security and Medicare funds, privatize our National Parks, privatize Public Education and numerous other entities, they will vote republican. I do not want their proposals so will vote for any democrat. These places re not supposed to make a profit and belong in government control

[Shandris]

182. Just a small note to say that I agree with your assessment overall.

If the truth is told, there are a couple positions of Bernie's that leave me less-than-happy, but it's not like a candidate exists to meet my every single desire! But Trump?! He's a juggernaut. I didn't take him seriously (as most didn't, in my defense) for a good long time, but that's been a while now. I see how he's working, I see how he works the media. He will maul Hillary outside of an amazing amount of sudden ingroup-circling around her, and I just don't think she inspires that kind of loyalty. Bernie? Bernie inspires the ingroup circling that will be necessary; any attack on him will only reinforce his support (essentially, the same power Trump has this time around). But Bernie's group is bigger.

I just don't see any other alternative. And, Bernie is far less detrimental to me (and far more beneficial on the things we agree on, which is most!) than the alternative, so it helps that I'm not advocating against my own interests.

Anyway, at this point I'm rambling. Just wanted to say good post.

[deathrind]

183. Spot on post! N/T

[lexington filly]

190. That a significant segment of the population believes

Donald Trump is "genuine and honest" just seems to make the case that people believe what they Want to believe, not that their beliefs are true.

This is unlike me, but I honestly don't know yet who I'll vote for in the primary---it's between my mind and my brain and neither Bernie or Hillary have sealed my decision yet. This is just all too important to me to let my heart lead the way. (It led me to a bad marriage once. Actually--twice.)

I do know this whichever Dem wins the nomination, I'm voting and working for that person no matter what. It's too important to defeat Republican ideas, attitudes, and their probable actions.

[JGug1]

191. Hillary Clinton Will Never Be President????/

I do believe your dogmatism is not well placed. Hillary Clinton remains, according to Nate Silver, FAR ahead of Bernie Sanders in all the caucuses and primaries that he is so far predicting. You may be able to make your case better if Bernie pulls an upset in Nevada, where Nate Silver gives her a 72% probability of winning. Bernie somehow beating her in South Carolina would absolutely be a game changer but it is so unlikely that Silver says Clinton is >99% probability of winning. She is well ahead in all the southern states where Silver has made a prediction.
I like Bernie. I think Hillary Clinton is a far better and more experienced candidate. The obvious reason that she has the baggage she has is that she has been in the arena for a very long time AND she is a woman who is hated by the Republicans.
Let's touch base after tomorrow night and see how we both feel.
Best.

[SheenaR]

195. You seem to think I said

She would never be the nominee. Since that's all you argue

[Binkie The Clown]

213. Since we have Nate Silver, I guess we don't need elections and voting by people who...

... often change their minds at the drop of a hat, and pick candidates for the most illogical and unpredictable reasons.

[humbled_opinion]

194. Hillary brings so much

baggage to the GE and Bernie brings none... I think the voters get that and when they actually go to vote they choose based on trustworthiness and seriously Hillary supporters please tell me how Hillary gains your trust? and then tell me why we can't see the transcripts of her Goldman speeches.... You know why we can't see them because she can't defend them and we will see the real Hillary and she will be forced to end her campaign.... it is as simple as that, but she doesn't fool me never has and never will..I know who Bernie is and what he stands for and he speaks the truth and has nothing to hide from.

[billhicks76]

196. Great Points

[EndElectoral]

197. I think many of her supporters are blind to how polarizing she will be to the GOP

There will be massive turnout by the GOP. I don't know the reason but anything Clinton, they cannot abide.

[Lorien]

202. She's given her opponants far too much ammo ove the decades

and people don't forget as much as she believes they do. This parody just showed up on my FB news feed, and damn, it's HARSH! https://www.facebook.com/nationalreview/videos/10156334982470093/

[asuhornets]

204. She has been endorsed by several

congressman and senators. Your OP has no basis.
Your words "... But the simple fact is every day she turns more and more people away rather than toward her."That is what you and your fellow supporters try to do here at DU. No one is buying what you are selling. You are in the minority in the real world.

[eridani]

212. If she is the nominee, that depends on who the Republican is

Granted, Sanders polls better against all of the Repubs.

[SciDude]

216. Clinton will not be president because the people don't want to elect another oligarch.

Like all entrenched "establishment" politicians in our oligarchy today, Clinton is corrupted by corporate money and influence peddling and the people have rejected crony governance so she can't win.

Seriously, her only child married a hedge fund manager! That says a lot about what that family "values."

[PoliticAverse]

227. Give Chelsea a break, she doesn't care about money...

http://www.businessinsider.com/chelsea-clinton-says-she-doesnt-care-about-money-2014-6?op=1

[Binkie The Clown]

277. There was a brief time in my life when I was making a six-figure income.

During that time, I didn't care about money either.

It's easy to not care about money when you have piles of it. Try saying that when you're dead broke and the bills are overdue.

[Ino]

319. That's not exactly what she said.

She said, "I was curious if I could care about (money) on some fundamental level, and I couldn’t." What did she mean by "on some fundamental level"? Money for money's sake? Just pushing money around, counting it?

I'm sure she cares a lot about what money can buy, its influence.

[BainsBane]

217. Well, you need to put money down on that

Last edited Sat Feb 20, 2016, 04:38 AM - Edit history (2)

with the odds makers. If you're right, you'll make a killing.

I myself do not take directions from the GOP attack machine. You declare their results absolue, despite the fact Clinton is the most admired woman IN THE WORLD and the most admired Democrat in the race.

I see nothing that qualifies Sanders to be president. He is skilled at sloganeering and that is attractive to some, but he has no track record of success. Twenty five years in congress, he has ONE major legislative accomplishment. (Not to diminish the importance of naming post offices, but a revolution it ain't.) I don't want a president who has no productive relations with congress and what may well be the least successful legislative record in all of congress. I want someone who is competent, who knows Sunni from Shia and Jordan from Turkey. Now, I know full well some care much more about words than action. They want the president to validate their anger and provide entertainment for them on cable news by telling them what they want to hear. I consider that completely unnecessary.

Bernie is not the best chance in the general election for many reasons, the first of which is that he is unlikely to win the primary. His policies don't hold water. He himself isn't even serious enough about them to try to put together proposals that make sense. The one economist--from UMass Amherst-- who vouched for his economic plan has been widely criticized because his conclusions depend on scenarios for growth that have never before happened in history. Then, quite strangely, it turns out the guy says he's voting for Clinton and not Sanders.

Whenever any of that is pointed out, his supporters declare it as "establishment FUD," (a response I just got for discussing his actual voting record). We have a candidate who is defended by attacking progressive economists and policy analysts, researchers, and research itself. They refuse to consider any independent analysis of his proposals and don't even care if the math is internally consistent in the documents Sanders himself produces.
Paul Krugman noted that we are witnessing an abandonment of reason, informed knowledge, and academic research in favor of what people want to believe. That has long been the province of the right. Democrats have been distinguished by concern about evidence. Support for Sanders has come to be predicated on abandoning reason and instead relying on what people want to believe. That itself is reason enough to oppose his candidacy because a world in which science, logic, and research are eskewed is a dangerous one. It's bad enough that has become the lifeblood of the GOP. I will not sit back and watch the Democratic party become gripped by the same thing.

Your point about dropping poll numbers shows a stark lack of knowledge about politics. Clinton was the only known candidate months ago. Of course her numbers were high, and they have dropped as the election has proceeded. One, she has a popular opponent. She is also met with attacks from "progressives" that mirror the opposition research generated by the GOP at the cost of tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars. Bernie has gone essentially unscathed because the GOP badly wants him as their opponent and have spend millions running ads to make that happen. That itself refutes your claim that Bernie is the most winnable candidate. Clearly the GOP sees it differently, and I happen to think they probably know a lot more about it than those who operate based on wishful thinking.


Bernie has even gone unscathed in the primary. We had a univision/Hispanic debate last night where no one even mentioned his votes on the Minutemen. It's quite astounding how little coverage his voting record has gotten. Clinton has been extremely reticent. I suppose she knows that sexism means that any attacks she makes on Bernie are likely to blow back on her because of the way that so many view forceful women negatively--something we have seen constantly throughout this campaign. And then the press just doesn't do its job. The GOP has spent countless millions digging up dirt on Clinton, and none on Sanders. He hasn't been vetted and his supporters are determined he not be. They think they are doing him favors, but ultimately such a posture only helps the GOP.

Your point about the supposed irrelevance of voters of color is not only uninformed, it is offensive. The Democratic Party is majority women and people of color. Their votes count, even if they don't live in the states you think matter. Your determination that those aren't blue states and therefore their votes less important is absurd. Your point hinges on the idea that blue states will only stay blue if Bernie is the nominee, when there is no reason to assume that is the case. Bernie has won ONE state, and that state is not blue. People of color also live in blue states, and NO DEMOCRAT can win without them.

There is a basic principle that seems to elude you. Your vote is not worth more than anyone else's. Your vote is not worth more than the black folks in South Carolina, and you are not more important than they are. You don't seem to have any clue about the make up of the party you insist vote as you demand or the country you live in.

No one here is going to change their vote because you think Sanders is more winnable, particularly when the claim is little more than wishful thinking. All the GOP needs to do is run some of his statements about being a socialist and related background and he's finished. This is still America after all.

People support Clinton because she is competent, because she is thoughtful in her policy positions, and because she LISTENS to voters. I see none of those qualities in Sanders. He has created a brand that is compelling to some, but that brand doesn't hold up to scrutiny. While he and his supporters clearly believe themselves superior to the rest of Americans, even the inferior folk get to vote. In fact, the Democratic Party's primary voting constituencies are those inferior folk you seem to think are obligated to vote as you demand. The attitude displayed by Sanders supporters, the condescension toward votes of color and women, and the attacks on anyone who fails to endorse or criticizes Bernie, is one of the worst things about his campaign and ought to cause pause among those who want do not want a society where conformity of thought and absolute deference for authority are enforced through personal attacks. The vision of a potential future America foreshadowed by such behavior is bone chilling, and one that I hope never comes to fruition.

People are going to vote as they see fit. If Clinton comes out with the most votes, which currently polling indicates, she will be the nominee. In typical fashion, you of course believe your own view superior to the polls, the odds makers, Nate Silver, and everyone else. That is of course the nature of entitlement. Data is irrelevant. You and those who think exactly like you are what matter. Some day perhaps you will realize that ou are not the absolute source of all knowledge, and you do not have powers to predict the future. I have no doubt you want more than anything to ensure Clinton will not be elected president and that you will do everything in your power to make that happen. And I have no doubt that you will be aided by many in that mission. But if she emerges through this nomination process with the most votes, the most delegates, you will simply have to take up your crusade on behalf of the GOP.

[chwaliszewski]

220. In Response To Your Post...

I must admit that the more that I hear Hillary speak, the more I grow to detest her. I'm all in with the anyone but a republican crowd but to be honest, if Hillary wins the nom over Bernie, I'll write in his name on the GE ballot to save myself from bile-tasting guilt. I wish Hillary wasn't like the way she was but man, it's getting hard to digest her BS. She needs to run as a moderate republican.

[Carolina]

309. K&R

especially the more that I hear Hillary speak, the more I grow to detest her

Welcome to DU!

[vercetti2021]

221. It's very true

Last edited Sat Feb 20, 2016, 05:07 AM - Edit history (1)

Funny how all these Clinton supporters and such say that Bernie is unelectable when the reality is Hillary is the one that is unelectable. She is very disliked by a lot of people and will lose the GE if she gets the nomination. Not just that, she can and will end up destroying the democratic party and the Republicans will win and the country will just end up going down in flames.

Bernie is the last fucking hope we have. Wake up already.

[quaker bill]

231. just like John Kerry

Hillary has a very firm grip on 48% of the vote in the GE. Also like Kerry, I think there is little she can do to push that to 51%.

Unfortunately, I think she runs a very strong second regardless of who the Republicans nominate.

[Fast Walker 52]

239. I agree with the sentiment but this is overly negative

the main issue is that I just don't see Hillary inspiring enough to people on the left to overcome the energy on the right for a GOP president.

[raouldukelives]

245. At this point it is more important that Bernie loses. For them, thats still a win.

They won't come out and say it. Many find Trump, Rubio and even Cruz preferable to Bernie. Which isn't too shocking, if you consider all that truly matters is the uninterrupted flow of corporate money.

As much as they enjoy playing the black sheep of the family, they always come home to eat at the same table.

[razorman]

256. I think you are right, for the most part.

Both Trump and Sanders are viewed by much of their opposition to be radical and even a little nuts. But, I know some conservatives who, although they will not vote for Bernie because they disagree with him, still respect the fact that he believes what he says and is unafraid to say so. I am sure the same is true with Trump. He's way out there, of course. But, he says what he thinks regardless of the pushback. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of Mrs. Clinton.

[jimlup]

267. Mostly agree

but I think if either democrat goes against Trump it will be a great opportunity to use Judo philosophy. By that I mean defend the blow and use the energy it generates against the attacker.

Trump is ripe for that tactic.

[Brainstormy]

270. I stopped reading

And I'm skipping the comments, too.

[mak3cats]

272. K & R for a sober, reasoned post...

And it's disappointing that there has been little helpful discussion from Hillary supporters in defense of their candidate. This doesn't bode well for November if she's our nominee.

[houston16revival]

273. If you have granted us permission to disagree with you

why do you present your opinion as Truth from God?

[dubyadiprecession]

274. If you say so. Do you know the winning lotto numbers as well?

[DownriverDem]

275. Ever hear of Nate Silver???

Go to fivethirtyeight.com Then click on Primary Forecasts. The dropdown box allows you to pick whatever race you are interested in. Nate Silver is has an excellent reputation for predicting elections.

[SheenaR]

281. At no point did I say she won't be the nominee

Reading helps.

I say she will never be President. That means losing in the GE

[retrowire]

279. I'm a Bernie supporter and I wasn't going to rec this at first.

But then I read it. And you make some of the most solid points I've ever seen.

Bernie is taking it easy on Hillary. Trump will not. And she DOES HAVE DIRT TO DIG.

We HAVE to vote Bernie!

[SheenaR]

283. Lol

Ok

No shot in November.

[asuhornets]

289. Agreedddd!!!!

Go Hillary!!!!!

[Nedsdag]

300. Whatever makes you happy.

I can't wait to see the look on your face when she gives her concession speech this November.

[AzDar]

284. K & R

[artislife]

285. She won't.

We need someone who will do something huge on the environment, on income equality and against the oligarchy.

She will hand it over to the money men just as completely as any republican..just a little slower. And I don't mean by much.

Sorry millenials, you get to live through the dark times.

[Nedsdag]

286. Come November, it'll be Republican vs. Republican Light.

And we all know how that works out, right?

[Live and Learn]

287. Kicking. nt

[asuhornets]

288. Her win in Nevada says different...n/t

[SheenaR]

290. Oh my god you people cannot read

I never said she CANT win the PRIMARY

Wtf. It's the GE that this ENTIRE piece is about.

She will never. Ever. Ever. Win the GE

[asuhornets]

291. Why not?..n/t

[SheenaR]

293. That is the basis of the entire post. Read at your leisure n/t

[mythology]

295. And when Republicans point out that Sanders has repeatedly denigrated the Democratic Party

When Republicans point out these are quotes from Sanders about the party he wants to be the nominee of:

"It would be hypocritical of me to run as a Democrat because of the things I have said about the party."

"The Democratic Party ideologically bankrupt, they have no ideology. Their ideology is opportunism.”

“Why should we work within the Democratic Party if we don’t agree with anything the Democratic Party says?”

"You don’t change the system from within the Democratic Party.”

“I think you have a Democratic Party which is not as strong as it should be in standing up for the working class of this country and taking on big-money interests. And that’s been my view for a long time.”

"“I am not a Democrat,” he told the Progressive, “because the Democratic Party does not represent, and has not for many years, the interests of my constituency, which is primarily working families, middle-class people and low-income people.”

Republicans would have a field day with a nominee that has said these things about Democrats. Republicans are going to toss hundreds of millions of dollars at whoever is the nominee. They are going to dig up everything. It will happen no matter who the nominee is. There may not a record of him attacking minorities, but here's plenty of ammo of Sanders attacking the Democratic Party that he now wants to be a part of.

[SheenaR]

299. And how does that mean she will win

It doesn't

[dave502d2]

301. Agree

I agree.

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

310. The PUMA deja vu in this thread is amazing.

In the end, when Bernie endorses and campaigns for Hillary, after the anger of losing subsides, you'll look at the GOP candidate and probably say no way. If you don't, you probably weren't to going to vote for any "Democrat" but Bernie anyway. I'm not interested in working with or for folks who want to hold everyone hostage if they don't get their way.

I support Hillary, but will vote for Bernie if he's the nominee. No foot stomping necessary.

[craigmatic]

311. The Clintons are slick and if Bill could get elected in 1992 with all the scandals floating around

him at the time, he still beat a sitting president although in a 3 way race. Hillary could do the same but she'll probably win ugly if it's trump or cruz. I doubt she'd beat rubio.

[DCBob]

316. There are more pragmatists than dreamers in this country.

Nothing wrong with dreaming but most people will select Hillary over Trump... I have no doubt.

[amborin]

320. she will never be president; and she is destroying the Democratic party

[AtomicKitten]

322. right on both counts

[mgmaggiemg]

323. not now, ever?

so you will eat your shorts if HRC is elected...(it's your opinion)

[SheenaR]

324. Yes

It's not a wish of mine. Wouldn't mind being wrong. She is highly damaged goods. We are going to get crushed by her baggage

You're right. My opinion. Shared by 298 other people here who rec'd this entry

[Beacool]

326. Hillary has a hell of a bigger chance to be president than Sanders will ever have.

[AtomicKitten]

330. Bernie beats ALL Repubs, Hillary loses to Cruz, Rubio, Kasich & tied with Trump.

Since you probably won't watch the video below, let me break it down for you. According to the most recent Quinnipiac poll:

HEAD-TO-HEAD MATCHUPS:

Against Trump:
Hillary 44, Trump 43
Bernie 48, Trump 42

Against Cruz:
Hillary 43, Cruz 46
Bernie 49, Cruz 39

Against Rubio:
Hillary 41, Rubio 48
Bernie 47, Rubio 41

Against Kasich:
Hillary 39, Kasich 47
Bernie 45, Kasich 41

Against Jebra (who has since dropped out)
Hillary 43, Jebra 44
Bernie 49, Jebra 39

FAVORABILITY:

Bernie +15 (he is the only candidate on either side above water).
Hillary -21 (she has worst rating of both parties).

[Beacool]

331. It's too early in the election season for those polls to matter.

We'll see how they read by the summer.

[AtomicKitten]

332. Mkay, but at present she does NOT have a "hell of a bigger chance to be president than Bernie."

And since no one can predict the future: Watch.This.Space.

[erpowers]

338. Highly Doubt the Polls

I highly doubt those polls are accurate. Those polls even have her losing to Kasich. I highly doubt she would lose to Kasich. I also doubt that she would lose to Cruz.

You can make a poll say just about anything you want it to say. Also, how many people were polled? Who was polled?

[erpowers]

341. White People

I would like to know the racial makeup of the people polled. Hillary Clinton had less support among women than Ted Cruz. How is it that Hillary Clinton lost women to Ted Cruz? President Obama is credited with having won women in 2008 and 2012. However, some have pointed out that President Obama lost white women in both elections, but won black women in each election. So, how many blacks, Hispanics, and other non-whites were polled?

[mgmaggiemg]

329. looking through

the threads there is plenty of disagreement with your opinion...denial is a nice anesthetic enjoy it while it lasts

[SheenaR]

336. Far more agreement regarding her favorability n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

333. Her entire campaign has been about the relationships she has with elites.

Periodically, sends them from the foxholes to draw fire, then uses their icon status to make hyperbolic claims of overblown victimhood on behalf of both herself and whatever coveted constituency.

I could excuse tough politics if it were better. Everything we've seen so far, I've seen in the average HS drill team. "You said something mean to Maria! Hey everyone! Mary hates hispanics!"

The most perplexing is when they send out the message to attack Bernie on issues with which Hillary is infinitely more vulnerable. "Oooh, look! Bernie takes donations from corporations!"

I don't know where the Clinton's got their reputation as master campaigners - they're doing a piss-poor job of it today.

[amborin]

334. Mrs. Wall Street versus The People

[BlueCaliDem]

337. BWAAAAHAHAHAHA!

You keep the hope, SheenaR.

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!

[SheenaR]

339. Address also the 300+ people who rec and apparently agree

She will lose. Not hoping for it.. But she will lose

[BlueCaliDem]

340. Clickety-click polls/recs always favor Bernie. MATH favors Hillary.

But...hope springs eternal, SheenaR.

[amborin]

342. that's for sure!

[SheenaR]

343. First post back

I am devastated still by the results. But look at what was written in February. Many of us were called "concern trolls".

No, we were legitimately concerned. I got a couple of the states wrong in my analysis, but this is what the level-headed, going to vote Democrat all along Sanders supporters warned about.

This was an appalling election. I am sorry to all those who put in countless hours to try to see us to victory. We all feel this one together. This is not an attempt to gloat. I am very saddened by the results. It is to express that the opinions we as a group (NOT the BoB faction) tried to tell you about were marginalized repeatedly while the football was spiked on us again and again in the primary.

Again, I am sorry for all those who now live in fear of the next four years and who strive for a better America. Look around. The Party WAS broken. And let's put the pieces back together and take back Congress in 2018.

Please don't start a flame war with me for referencing the above post. I am on your side. And I'll keep fighting with you all.

[StevieM]

345. Well, she was a strong enough candidate and ran a good enough campaign that she had the whole

thing won by a decisive margin with 11 days to go.

What James Comey did was not a small thing. He altered the outcome of the race through his criminal behavior.