I am a liberal feminist. Also a political junkie. May I share an observation?

[elehhhhna]

The tradition, and I'm not sure if you all know that it was a tradition, of congressman, governor, mayor, or senator dying in office and being replaced by his wife (sometimes son), either by appointment or election, has always felt sketchy to me.

When I first became aware of this phenomenon back in the 70s, I thought it was sweet and kind and an amazing gesture. It was a lovely way to honor a man's family...but it also feels very condescending and reckless. It really isn't appropriate to throw an important job involving governance to whomever in order to make a grand gesture

Now, about Hillary. Her story is much more complex and she presents a very strong resume. And of course her husband is present. But she's Bills protege and and he's pretty sleazy. That makes me nervous . For the sake of transparency I should admit that I voted for him twice and knew he was a hound dog both times, and didn't really care . Not my business. The sex sleaze doesn't bother me, I cynically expect a lot of sex monkey business from people in power. I strongly suspect that some of Hillary's missteps and apparent financial shenanigans are actually the fault and responsibility of the Big Dog.

I will be happy to see a (liberal) female president . Hell, I predicted in 2007 that we would elect a black man before we elect any woman. Fact. But I don't appreciate being told that I owe someone at my vote because she's a woman, particularly when she got where she got on her husbands coattails.

Flame on in 3...2...1..

[Avalon Sparks]

1. Thank you for posting.

I'm appalled by how many women I know that do not follow politics at all, that are only voting for her because she is a woman.

It's thinking like that - wedge issues - that is destroying this country.

[athena]

2. That's right. We women are so stupid.

We're all supporting Hillary because she's a woman.

It's not like she's the most qualified woman, nor the one most likely to win, nor the one most likely to get her policies enacted. It's not because hers is the only campaign that has women in its top ranks. No. If we're voting for Hillary, it's because of her gender. We would also be voting for Carly Fiorina, Sarah Palin, or Michelle Bachmann. Right.

Your comment is sexist. Sexism, racism, and bigotry are what is destroying this country. Not the supposed stupidity of Hillary's female supporters.

[Avalon Sparks]

7. I'm commenting on my personal network of female friends...

They don't follow politics - they state openly they are voting for her because she is a woman.

In fact, a few Repub women I know have said the same thing.

Their comments.....

I only wished they followed politics and policy so I could discuss it with them.... sadly they aren't interested.

You outta be ecstatic - it's some extra votes for your candidate. lol

[athena]

12. Maybe they just don't want to argue with a Bernie supporter.

Maybe they're just telling you what they think you will hear anyway.

Given that Hillary Clinton is not Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachmann or Carly Fiorina, it's unlikely that your friends are supporting Hillary in a total information vacuum. They are, indeed, correct in their assumption that a woman is more likely to stand up for women's issues than a man.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/hillary-clinton-has-the-most-diverse-campaign-staff-report-finds_us_55aecd9be4b0a9b94852e873

http://theslot.jezebel.com/an-investigation-which-presidential-campaigns-have-the-1762895557

ETA: No one would criticize a Black person's preference for a Black candidate. But when you're a woman, you have to vote for against the woman to show that you're intelligent. There is nothing more depressing than that.

[BillZBubb]

38. Bullshit, it isn't sexist at all. It was an observation. It wasn't a generalization about all women.

Do you deny there are women who will vote for Hillary primarily because she is a woman? It is probably a small percentage, but it's bound to happen.

I would readily agree that some men will vote against her for that reason--there are sexist males. Again it will be a small percentage.

[Upward]

4. People Who Follow Politics

Men and women both, know that a President doesn't get policies and laws enacted on their own, not without dictatorial powers.

We know that Bernie has few, if any, political allies that will help him get tough legislation through, and we know he hasn't been campaigning or supporting anyone who can help him.

[Avalon Sparks]

9. Fine with me....

I'm more concerned with what SHE can do, then HE can't.

More WAR anyone?

[athena]

13. Why don't you read this:

http://www.thenation.com/article/can-hillary-clinton-win-over-the-left/

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

26. Well, there's this thing called Emily's List that has a singular mission: elect women

Aside: IIRC they recruited David Brock for their SuperPac

[Avalon Sparks]

27. Really? Tell me more.

I'm interested in this.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

30. My bad. It's called Emily's List

OUR MISSION

We elect pro-choice Democratic women to office.


https://www.emilyslist.org/pages/entry/our-mission

[Avalon Sparks]

36. I'd forgotten about Emily's List

No worries, I was considering cancelling my subscription to Angies List - it's only 5 bucks a year, but it hasn't been that helpful anyway...

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

35. So the relationship between Brock and Emily's List is like one degree of separation, after all

Anne Caprara, the vice president of campaigns at Emily’s List, which supports female candidates for office, will be moving to Priorities USA as its executive director, officials said. That job was vacated this week by Buffy Wicks, a veteran of President Obama’s 2008 and 2012 campaigns. Ms. Wicks, a veteran organizer, is expected to join the coordinated side of the campaign, meaning either a role with Mrs. Clinton’s team or with the Democratic National Committee. Ms. Wicks’s departure was first reported by BuzzFeed.

At the same time, Mrs. Clinton’s staunch ally, David Brock — who runs a political action committee that will be coordinating with the campaign — is expected to rejoin the board of Priorities USA after he had previously resigned from the group amid an internal conflict.

http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/05/20/super-pac-backing-hillary-clinton-sees-staff-overhaul/

[Haveadream]

34. Um, I think you mean Emily's List

Angie's List is a paid subscriber service that lists and reviews local businesses.



Emily's List:

BALANCE THE VOICE OF POWER.


EMILY's List — the largest national resource for women in politics — was created by Ellen R. Malcolm in 1985 to fund campaigns for pro-choice Democratic women, and strategically torch-light the balance of power in our government.

Our vision is a government that reflects the people it serves, and decision makers who genuinely and enthusiastically fight for greater opportunity and better lives for the Americans they represent. We will work for larger leadership roles for pro-choice Democratic women in our legislative bodies and executive seats so that our families can benefit from the open-minded, productive contributions that women have consistently made in office.

EMILY’s List counts Diversity & Inclusion as a key goal of our organization — for our candidates, membership, partners, board of directors and staff. We are committed to creating a space where people are valued regardless of sex, age, race, gender identity, sexual orientation, ability, national origin or religious affiliation — and we celebrate the diverse geographic, economic, and family perspectives that help a movement meet the needs of the people it seeks to serve.

EMILY’s List is proud to support every Democratic woman of color currently serving in federal office, as well as women up and down the ballot who identify as lesbian, bisexual, and transgender. We are proud to have helped elect the first openly gay Senator, the first Buddhist and Hindu in Congress, the first African-American woman Senator, the first Asian-American woman Senator, and the first Mexican-American and Puerto Rican women serving in Congress; and we recognize the principal role that Democratic women have always played in bringing diversity to our caucus.

[Lucinda]

3. Your post is nonsense. Hillary has been working for this country her entie adult life

and almost 20 years of it were unpaid.

You don't have to vote for anyone you don't want to, but your post implies an ignorance about her record that I find shocking in someone who professes to be a political junkie.

[Avalon Sparks]

6. Hillary has been working to enrich her personal banking account

That is all - nothing else.

Accepting endless bribes is nothing honorable. It's completely unethical.

[athena]

15. You really don't know much about Hillary, do you?

You shouldn't believe what the right-wing noise machine tells you (which is what the Bernie campaign is now repeating). Earlier in the thread, I posted a good article that will show you who Hillary really is. You should read it.

http://www.thenation.com/article/can-hillary-clinton-win-over-the-left/

[Avalon Sparks]

18. I know all I need to know.

Sure chalk it all up to right wing smears - you're crying WOLF.

You can wrap it up in a nice bow and call it "Speaking Fees" - or whatever you'd like. Bribery is still Bribery. When it's accepted under the guise of "Speaking Fees" it's a lot less messy though. Straight into the bank account (150 mil dollars).

In corrupt countries it's usually done by accepting a suitcase full of money. It's dirty though, cause the money's gotta be cleaned through money laundering.

Much more palatable to sing a little for the bribe, that ways it's all better, especially when the people you claim to represent accept the ruse without question.

Such is the way of corruption.

[athena]

21. An open-minded person wouldn't be afraid to read the material I posted.

Clearly, you have no intention of reading it.

Have a nice day.

[Avalon Sparks]

23. I'll read it an comment. Might take a few days.

You have a nice day as well.

[sorechasm]

32. The gist of this article is Hillary from the 80's and 90's. She doesn't resemble that today.

She has become 'practical' to the benefit of her 1% benefactors, not the American people.

In many ways, the progressive debate over Hillary Clinton is all about the limits of pragmatism: How much compromise can be excused by good intentions? When does realism become a complacent acceptance of the status quo? Cohen, for his part, refuses to call Clinton “pragmatic.” He prefers the word “practical,” arguing: “Pragmatic people believe in problem solving. Practical people often tell us why we can’t solve problems that we care deeply about.”

I see no evidence of the former Hillary in the current Hillary. She has changed so many positions, to please her investors that even she doesn't quite believe herself. On top of that, the 'warhawk' in her seems to have buried all her former compassion for the people.

[Upward]

5. Oh, now there's an original thought

not.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

8. Interesting choice of words. I'm sure the "real" feminists will set you straight

[Avalon Sparks]

11. What's a REAL feminist?

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

28. I have no idea, that's for someone else to attack you

[Avalon Sparks]

29. What, like you're extending an invitation to?

LOL

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

39. :D

I haven't read through, have they come for you?

Hey, I worked in an office outnumbered 4-to-1 by REAL millennial feminists. I was watching the woman who sat next to me type her notes and talk on the phone about a completely different subject. Another does it, too. I commented on their amazing brains, how easily they multitask, and how men can only focus on one thing at a time. Holy crap criers! It got ugly because I don't walk away from a fight. They portrayed my comment as sexist. They even argued that there's no difference between men and women, or something similarly ignorant that I searched and found -- shocker -- study after study showing how the brains between men and women differ. They wouldn't hear any of it and wouldn't look at the research.

Sheesh! I told my peers -- we're in our 50s -- about this and they said those two are complete idiots for claiming that was a sexist statement.

Peace Avalon

[Avalon Sparks]

42. Peace What The!!

You're my peer!!

I think they've gone too far. It's my opinion many of them attempt to empower themselves by bashing men now. There's a whole group of men that aren't having any of it. And I support that.

Thanks for sharing about the office incident, I've witnessed it too.

My nephew is in high school and he told me many of the girls are always talking about feminism. He told me they were divided in groups randomly for some project, and one group of five only had one girl, and she would not stop complaining that it was discrimination. I said "You're kidding me, right?" That's when he told me about the young feminists in his class. I was dumbfounded.

IT's called Third Wave Feminism. I think it's gonna backfire terribly.

[Joob]

10. Tired of people bashed for speaking their opinion and people trying to force a vote. Rock on.

[TheFarS1de]

14. It is a major issue in present politics

Nepotism and the Neo lords and ladies are exactly what is wrong with representive democracy . And while a noble ideal just voting someone in because they tick the physical boxes is the height of stupidity when we are electing people based on policy and not their physical / sexual or religious persuasion . That is where we want to be .

[geek tragedy]

16. you treat her as if she's an unequal partner in their marriage. nt

[RiverLover]

17. I agree

100%

Thank you, el !!!

[Nonhlanhla]

19. Bill's protege?

Hardly. They have always been equally ambitious and intelligent. When they started their political journey, Bill was the politician more likely to succeed: those were the times. But she was always seen as his partner rather than his support network. Yes, she does benefit from the fame that his political success brought, but one can easily argue that she had a hand in that success, that it's always been a joint venture: she's not just the wife who belatedly developed an interest in politics and now steps into her husband's shoes. One can also show how his fame (and infamous moments) harm her rather than help her. Furthermore, one can show how she's built a political career of her own since he left office.

There is no reason, especially for a feminist, to dismiss Hillary's achievements in this manner, even if she's not your preferred candidate. There's also no reason to disparage women who support her (in part) because she is a woman. I do, and I also know that my reasons are more complex than that. Virtually no Hillary supporter would exchange her for Carly Fiorina, for example. We are happy to be able to support a well QUALIFIED woman, for once, for a position that has always been held by a man. That does not means that we reduce her to her gender, or that our happiness in supporting a woman is a simple gender vote.

[Avalon Sparks]

24. I danced in the street when Bill Clinton won; Popped a bottle of Champaign and Screamed my Lungs Out

Didn't bat an eye at the Monica witch hunt - it was their personal business.

I've been with DU since Bush stole the Presidency.

Every single negative thing I heard about them was due to the right wing smear machine.

Email server? Who cares - I read some of my work emails on my personal PC

Two for one Clintons in 2016..... What could be better? Especially watching the Repubs Heads Explode!

What's in the speeches? Ho-hum - I don't care

And then....

How many speeches? How much?? Who sponsored??? WTF????

And just like that, my support of the Clinton's is over.

There is no doubt - It's corruption, it's accepting influence money plain and simple.

The amount of cash accepted, the frequency, the specific industries - financial, health insurance, Pharms, Defense industries, Oil and Gas.... It's systemic. It's despicable. It's Corruption.

Not only do they not have my back, they've accepted large cash payments to the tune of millions to push for and pass legislation that's likely to hurt my bottom line, and/ or well being.

I'm done with them.

[Desert805]

31. Similar trajectory here.

Voted Dem every election since I was old enough (Clinton's first), but there is just too much info out there already for me to not say, "cut it out."

[Nonhlanhla]

40. Fine

But what does that have to do with the point I was making in response to the OP?

[Avalon Sparks]

46. I ThinK I was pointing out...

why her 'qualifications' don't matter to me. Should have made that clear.

[athena]

20. I'm really sorry to say it, but you're being sexist.

But I don't appreciate being told that I owe someone at my vote because she's a woman, particularly when she got where she got on her husbands coattails.

First of all, no one is telling you that you owe Hillary your vote. You can vote as you wish. You can even choose not to vote. It may not be a wise decision, but it's your decision.

In the beginning of the race, I also felt exactly like you about Hillary's connection to Bill. Then I read this article by a feminist:
http://www.thenation.com/article/why-im-ready-and-excited-hillary/
It made me realize that the "coattails" argument, the one you made and the one I used to believe, is extremely sexist. We don't hold it against men when they benefit from an unfair advantage. Take the Kennedys for example. But we do hold it against women. Men benefit from an unfair advantage all the time. In fact, I think that being married to Bill has actually hurt Hillary, precisely because many women think that we can only be legitimately successful if we don't get the kinds of advantages men get all the time. We assume she got where she is because of Bill, and that makes us ignore her own accomplishments.

She is an intelligent and capable woman. Intelligent and capable women tend to be married to intelligent and capable men. We can't start holding that against them.

[Dem2]

25. I thought so too

Kind of jumped off the screen at me actually, but I bit my tongue.

[snowy owl]

43. I'm a woman and I don't see it. Your lens? HRC supporter? Just asking...

[athena]

45. You don't see the sexism of the "coattail" argument?

Even after my explanation?

I wonder what your lens is.

[ismnotwasm]

52. +1

[jillan]

22. Thank you for this eloquently stated post!

[annavictorious]

33. Do you really think this?

".... she got where she got on her husbands coattails".

I live in NY. Hillary was my senator. The first time she was elected, she got there despite her husband's coattails.
The second time, she got there on her record.

Do you really think that this is a case of a woman being her husband's surrogate like Lurleen Wallace was for George?
Then why didn't President Obama ask Bill Clinton to be SOS? There was nothing stopping this. Why didn't Bill run in the NY senate race in 2006, if Hillary was merely a placeholder? Or do see this as more of a Svengali-Trilby scenario with Hillary as Bill Clinton's agent?

Bill's protege? I get your drift, but I'm having a difficult time connecting it to reality.

[demigoddess]

37. maybe your ideas about her are all wrong

perhaps Bill was her creature. Perhaps he learned from her. Perhaps they were a set. Ps. being a set was not objectionable when it was Ronnie and Nancy.

Perhaps since Bill retired Hillary has been working more in the field of politics and actually was interested in politics since college but as a married woman put her wishes aside for her husband's.

Ps, after the scandal broke Bill and Hillary had intensive psychological therapy in the White House. Bill loves Hill and you can see it. How many republicans do therapy after they get caught??

[athena]

44. I think they're a beautiful couple.

I see the love in Bill's eyes and in his demeanor. I did not realize that they had had therapy. That explains it, and it makes me so happy to know that they're now happy. Thanks for pointing it out!

[demigoddess]

48. you are welcome

[Waiting For Everyman]

41. I agree with you. nt

[Demnorth]

47. I don't think gender

should enter into it at all. The candidates work for you, they're applying for a job. Check out their job history, credible references (e.g their words vs. opinions in someone's blog), assess their suitability to work with their co-workers to see if they'll be able to deliver on what they promise in their interview.

They're human, not heroes. I think all politicians make promises they can't deliver on, it's a given, so they deserve scrutiny to see what's likely to be achievable. There's so much else to consider, gender shouldn't be a factor in the choice.

I appreciate the respectful exchange of opinions here, it's informative without the dismissive comments in many other discussions.

[ismnotwasm]

49. Your choice

I am also a liberal feminist. My problem lies not with feminists who aren't supporting Hillary, but with those who deny she experienced and continues to experience significant sexism. Not impressed with you calling Hillary Clinton a "protégée" either, as this assumes she accomplished nothing on her own merit, but whatevs.

I never voted for Bill Clinton and his behavior DID bother me. Glad he's not running. Glad Hillary is.

[Arugula Latte]

50. I take issue with this sentence:

"But she's Bills protege and and he's pretty sleazy."

Make that "very sleazy."

[Faux pas]

51. No flame here, just

a mighty BRAVO elehhhhna !!!!