2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumGun Crime imports from Vermont to NY--graphs
Everytown Verified account
?@Everytown
Vermont's a small state, but it is disproportionately represented as a source of guns that end up in NY. #DemDebate
Scuba
(53,475 posts)Sancho
(9,070 posts)riversedge
(70,285 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Employment of per-capita rates in this matter gives a misleading impression that guns from VT are actually creating a significant problem in NY. Since the actual number is a little over 50 (out of over 7500) firearms per year, that impression is obviously false.
This is transparent, unsubtle ratfuckery.
George II
(67,782 posts)It clearly shows that a higher rate of guns are coming from Vermont. Its unsubtle, but certainly not "ratfuckery".
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)TheBlackAdder
(28,211 posts).
There are 5 SBS and 12 HRC people who constantly flood the boards with raw sewage.
.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)THREE PINOCCHIOS from WaPo!
Sancho
(9,070 posts)The point is not the number of guns - the point is that Bernie is WRONG to support guns being purchased and transported for use in criminal activities!! Bernie votes against WAITING PERIODS. Bernie votes against restricting gun TRANSFERS. Bernie does not support the Brady Bill. Bernie does not support a license to possess or use a gun. Those gun stores (his example!) that sell guns used in crimes should be LIABLE, not the ONLY industry in the US exempt from lawsuits. Bernie is the NRA's poster child. NY keeps records on guns used in crimes. Who knows how many Vermont guns are going out all over the world of crime? Vermont is wrong, Bernie is wrong, and Bernie does not have the values to be President.
Congressional Summary:AMENDMENT PURPOSE: To ensure that law abiding Amtrak passengers are allowed to securely transport firearms in their checked baggage.
On page 37, between lines 8 and 9, insert the following: "Allowing Amtrak Passengers to Securely Transport Firearms on Passenger Trains.--None of amounts made available in the reserve fund authorized under this section may be used to provide financial assistance for the National Railroad Passenger Corporation (Amtrak) unless Amtrak passengers are allowed to securely transport firearms in their checked baggage.
Proponent's argument to vote Yes:Sen. ROGER WICKER (R, MS). This amendment aims to ensure that gun owners and sportsmen are able to transport securely firearms aboard Amtrak trains in checked baggage, a practice that is done thousands of times a day at airports across the country. I emphasize that this amendment deals with checked, secured baggage only. It would return Amtrak to a pre-9/11 practice. It does not deal with carry-on baggage. Unlike the airline industry, Amtrak does not allow the transport of firearms in checked bags. This means that sportsmen who wish to use Amtrak trains for hunting trips cannot do so because they are not allowed to check safely a firearm.
Opponent's argument to vote No:Sen. FRANK LAUTENBERG (D, NJ): I object to this disruptive amendment offered by the Senator from Mississippi. He wants to enable the carrying of weapons, guns, in checked baggage. One doesn't have to be very much concerned about what we are doing when they look at the history of attacks on railroads in Spain and the UK and such places. This amendment has no place here interrupting the budgetary procedure. The pending amendment is not germane and, therefore, I raise a point of order that the amendment violates section 305(b)(2) of the Congressional Budget Act of 1974.
Reference: Wicker Amendment; Bill S.Amdt.798 to S.Con.Res.13 ; vote number 2009-S145 on Apr 2, 2009
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Bernie WANTS criminals to have guns! It's so OBVIOUS!
Throw in some Hillary supporter talking points and a gish gallop about allowing guns in checked baggage on trains!
FEEL THE POUTRAGE!!!
Sancho
(9,070 posts)Here's some outrage for you:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/10/13/bernie_sanders_on_guns_at_the_debate.html
Bernie Sanders Defense of His Pro-Gun, Pro-NRA Votes Was Absolutely Terrible
A socialist like Scandinavia on everything EXCEPT guns:
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-07-31/no-really-what-s-the-difference-between-a-democrat-and-a-socialist-
What it means is that one takes a hard look at countries around the world who have successful records in fighting and implementing programs for the middle class and working families. When you do that, you automatically go to countries like Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden, and other countries that have had labor governments or social democratic governments, and what you find is that in virtually all of those countries, health care is a right of all people and their systems are far more cost-effective than ours, college education is virtually free in all of those countries, people retire with better benefits, wages that people receive are often higher, distribution of wealth and income is much fairer, their public education systems are generally stronger than ours.
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/watch-bernie-sanders-clash-with-a-gun-control-activist-who-thinks-he-sounds-like-the-nra/
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/run-2016/2015/07/10/bernies-big-break-with-the-left-on-guns
Bernie's Big Break With the Left on Guns
Gun control is one issue where the Vermont senator is out of step with the progressive movement.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/05/bernie_sanders_on_guns_vermont_independent_voted_against_gun_control_for.html
Bernie Sanders, Gun Nut
He supported the most reprehensible pro-gun legislation in recent memory.
http://reverbpress.com/news/phillips-lucky-gunner-aurora-shooting/
Grieving Parents Forced To Pay Legal Fees To Gun Companies That Sold Arms To Aurora Shooter
http://dailycaller.com/2015/05/01/bernie-sanders-second-amendment-socialist/
Bernie Sanders, Second Amendment Socialist?
Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders, the independent who has announced he will run to the left of Hillary Clinton in the 2016 Democratic presidential primaries, was first elected to Congress with the help of the National Rifle Association.
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/12/19/why-isnt-the-media-discussing-the-unprecedented/191910
Why Isn't The Media Discussing The Unprecedented Law Giving Gun Makers And Dealers Immunity?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2015/07/10/bernie-sanders-misleading-characterization-of-a-controversial-gun-law/
Bernie Sanderss misleading characterization of a controversial gun law
http://ideas.time.com/2012/12/24/why-is-congress-protecting-the-gun-industry/
Why Is Congress Protecting the Gun Industry?
Gun manufacturers and dealers enjoy broad legal immunity, even though lawsuits against them would help improve safety
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/02/01/1183784/-2005-Law-Gives-Gun-Manufacturers-and-Dealers-Protection-From-Lawsuits-Not-Given-to-Other-Industries#
2005 Law Gives Gun Manufacturers and Dealers Protection From Lawsuits Not Given to Other Industries
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/21/politics/congress-passes-new-legal-shield-for-gun-industry.html?_r=0
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/252007-conn-governor-hits-sanders-on-gun-control
Conn. governor hits Sanders on guns
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)boston bean
(36,223 posts)revbones
(3,660 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)This is a bullshit statistic. The population of Vermont is under 650,000. The population of New York, by contrast, is close to 20 Million. Given the very small population of Vermont, any per capita comparison with other states is meaningless. Maybe a more meaningful number would be the number of gun-related crimes in NY in which guns purchased in VT were used, over the total number of gun-related crimes committed with all guns purchased out of state?
On edit: from the WaPo article cited down thread: "But 1 percent of crime guns whose sources were identified in 2014 originated from Vermont: 55 of 4,585."
Sancho
(9,070 posts)Lax laws allow illegal gun sales - and that includes things that Bernie supports: no waiting period, transfers across state lines, and no license for gun possession.
I realize that Vermonters don't care if only a "few" people are killed by their lack of gun control - but if there were strong federal laws like Hillary has long supported, and that Bernie consistently votes against, then Vermont would not export guns to criminals; and neither would a bunch of other states.
Bernie is the problem.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Sancho
(9,070 posts)LUPICA: Bernie Sanders stands with the big gun manufacturers as he defends their immunity from lawsuits
djg21
(1,803 posts)This is utter nonsense.
Go Catamounts!
sheshe2
(83,861 posts)Your point?
riversedge
(70,285 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)You get why that's completely useless (except for ratfucking purposes), right?
riversedge
(70,285 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Thanks for the confirmation...
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)djg21
(1,803 posts)I'm not a Bernie supporter, but this criticism is shameful. BTW, Bernie is a US Senator and before that was the mayor of Burlington. He has never been Governor or a member of the VT legislature. If you have issues with VT's gun laws, at least take it up with the right elected officials.
CompanyFirstSergeant
(1,558 posts)Bullshit
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Sancho
(9,070 posts)which is why Hillary has been calling for strong federal gun control for decades.
Bernie has voted against waiting periods, restrictions on transporting guns, and for protecting gun manufacturers.
Bernie has been wrong on this issue for many years, and the NRA loves the way Bernie votes.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)mainer
(12,027 posts)We wavered between Two and Three Pinocchios. Clinton has carefully crafted her talking point to find the particular government data that support her point, which gives a wildly different view than how trafficking flows are tracked. We do not find the per capita measure as a fair assessment of gun flows from Vermont into New York. The difference between this point using per capita calculation and the raw number (1 percent of crime guns with source states identified in 2014 came from Vermont) is so stark that it creates a significantly misleading impression to the public. Those factors tip to Three Pinocchios.
Three Pinocchios
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/04/12/hillary-clintons-claim-that-the-highest-per-capita-number-of-crime-guns-in-new-york-come-from-vermont/
vintx
(1,748 posts)Straight up bullshit but they just keep serving it up.
As if everyone is STUPID enough to buy this kind of crap.
beedle
(1,235 posts)It's that guns imported by criminals from Vermont are the safest, last used in criminal activity.
The numbers are clear, highest per capita number, least per capita crimes ... If Hillary's claims are to be taken seriously at all, then she's making the argument that New York would be a much safer place if all guns used by criminals came from Vermont.
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)Nice attempt at bottom feeding ratfuckery. Keep trying -I think youve got a knack for this!!
riversedge
(70,285 posts)Sanders has a poor gun-control voting record--GRAPH
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)riversedge
(70,285 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)riversedge
(70,285 posts)NY won't forget--Sanders voted against Firefighter's extension of 9/11 health bill
TWEET
I Am #ABWisdom ?@adbridgeforth 12m12 minutes ago
DID YOU KNOW? #NYWontForget
#FeelTheFraud #DontGetBerned #gunsense
angrychair
(8,732 posts)Sanders did not - DID NOT - vote against the Extension of the James Zadroga Act.
Fact:
1) the Extension of the James Zadroga Act is now law.
2) the Act was rolled up into the 2015 Omnibus Spending bill that was passed in December of 2015
3) his vote was a protest vote on the significant short-comings of the 2015 Omnibus Spending bill as well as its concessions to big oil.
http://www.postal-reporter.com/blog/senator-sanders-says-no-omnibus-spending-bill/
4) Sanders has supported and co-sponsored the senate version of the Act, s928, since the beginning.
http://www.renew911health.org/presidential-candidates/bernie-sanders/
Lastly, as a member of the wildland firefighting community, I take serious exception to this nasty ratfuckery and trying to squeeze political gain from the death and illness of New York's first responders.
Classless, serious bullshit and you should be ashamed.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Facts can sting, lol
northernsouthern
(1,511 posts)I said that she was digging them up for the debate. I found it upsetting the only time she talks about them is when it gets her something. That is not concern that is exploitation. I love the shit John Stewart did on shaming them to pass the bill.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Bernie and his supporters should be ashamed of it.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)The number of crime guns in New York from Vermont is so small that it could even be attributed to one or two bad actors. Using the per capita measure of trafficked guns originating from Vermont is as pointless as counting guns trafficked per 100,000 head of cattle.
THREE PINOCCHIOS
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/04/12/hillary-clintons-claim-that-the-highest-per-capita-number-of-crime-guns-in-new-york-come-from-vermont/
What's the ratio of cows to guns?
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,482 posts)In GD: P, most just follow the guideline, "If you can say something bad, don't say anything."
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)New York requested tracing of thousands more firearms in 2014 than ATF was able to successfully identify: A total of 7,686 firearms were recovered and traced, but the source state was identified in only 4,585. Guns are normally traced to the first retail sale, ATF says.
ATFs numbers show the top 15 sources for those 4,585 guns, with 30.5 percent of them (1,397) coming from New York. The out-of-state sources were, in order: Virginia (395 guns), Georgia (386), Pennsylvania (371), Florida (292), North Carolina (279), South Carolina (256), Ohio (152), Texas (103), Alabama (91), West Virginia (66), Connecticut (59), Tennessee (57), Vermont (55) and California (49).
http://www.factcheck.org/2016/04/clintons-vermont-gun-stat/
I know Clinton Camp loves the NY Daily News, which endorsed her. Here is their piece about which States send guns to NY:
Bloomberg released a list of the top 10 out-of-state sources for firearms used in city crimes.
Virginia placed first and was followed by North Carolina, South Carolina, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Florida, Ohio, Alabama, Texas and West Virginia.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/out-of-state-guns-ny-gun-crimes-article-1.1414139
CompanyFirstSergeant
(1,558 posts)Makes this entire argument into nonsense.
What does 'per capita' mean.... per person, or per 100,000 people, etc.
Vermont is a small state. Per capita statistics are going to be skewed into the realm of non-reality.
Might as well say 'per square mile' or...
OK, I have one.....
At 55 guns, Vermont has the LOWEST illegal gun rate 'per days of cold weather.'
TRUE, REALLY REALLY TRUE!!!!!
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)Response to winter is coming (Reply #34)
CompanyFirstSergeant This message was self-deleted by its author.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Skwmom
(12,685 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)Hillary and Bill are selling arms and laundering money through the Clinton Foundation. You guys should be more concerned about that than this shit. You're just like children.
vintx
(1,748 posts)so I won't be holding my breath.
They'll keep posting lies right up until the convention gavel comes down
jmg257
(11,996 posts)ANY day now.
But thousands every year come right from NY - despite the "tough" laws, should we blame clinton for those?
northernsouthern
(1,511 posts)jmg257
(11,996 posts)Sancho
(9,070 posts)He is on the wrong side of gun control. Bernie's followers turn off as many voters as any RW commercial.