Clinton's offensive "off the reservation" language

[Mike__M]

Anybody want to defend it? Apologize? Comment?

I think it's in line with her John-Wayne-sounding, George-Zimmerman-defending "I know how to stand my ground!" dog-whistle.

Here's the ICTMN story:
http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2016/04/29/trump-has-gone-reservation-clinton-says-sanders-campaign-calls-clintons-comment

[JonLeibowitz]

1. I think both are colloquialisms.

But off the reservation is perhaps offensive while the other is common language to assert a defensive posture

My guess is she doesn't care because most native Americans didn't vote for her.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

2. Hillary needs to apologize... and fast.

[riversedge]

76. ha ha.

[Mike__M]

3. Further meanings can attach to colloquialisms

I think Stand Your Ground / Shoot First have more sinister meanings since Zimmerman's trial.

[TheBlackAdder]

128. I'm finishing a Native American course, it's offensive. Most shocking: Rev. War partly land grab.

.


The Royal Proclamation if 1763 forbidded colonists from venturing west of the Appalachians.

The British had a tight agreement with the Native Americans to preserve peace and respect property rights.


The west Indian Law applied, the east British law.

The colonists wanted to void that agreement, which went against the king's wishes.


.

[jwirr]

137. Reservations were more or less the US military's way of

imprisoning Native Americans. If you were "off the reservation" you were where you did not belong. To say it today is to hint that there are people who are not in their place.

[TheBlackAdder]

138. America's pre-history to present, one big screw job to the Native Americans. nt

[jwirr]

139. Pretty much. To be fair I suspect Hillary has no idea what

that means to a Native American so she probably did not mean to insult but she needs to learn - she wants to be president.

[leveymg]

152. Hillary Clinton can ask Samantha Power what "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" mean.

Of course we condemn it, when someone else does it.

[guillaumeb]

154. Very well said, especially the strong finish.

The very idea that the US would or could commit war crimes causes severe cognitive dissonance in many people, including Democrats and Republican equally.

[leveymg]

156. "Humanitarian intervention" is pure cognitive dissonance, particularly when we do it.

It's in the tradition of "Manifest Destiny" and "White Man's Burden." Nothing has changed.

[guillaumeb]

158. Colonizing states, no matter the state,

always justify their actions as being divinely supported. The US is simply the largest Empire to date. And genocide has been a feature of many empires.

The US reserves to itself alone the right to interfere in the affairs of every country. A right that is found nowhere in International Law or treaties. It acts outside the law when the interests of empire require it. But my describing the US as an empire has occasioned comments referring to me as always blaming the US for everything, when what I am actually doing is describing what the US has actually done.

[leveymg]

162. What we learned occupying this land, we extended globally. It was our destiny. Even Lincoln could

not find a way to do the the right thing in the face of such a monstrous crime against humanity as the extermination of the Northern Plains tribes, and the inevitable "war crimes" committed by the Dakota Indians during their last major resistance. But, his efforts to find some "humane" solution, nevertheless, led to the largest mass hanging in US history of captured rebelling Dakota Indians in 1862. http://www.historynet.com/abraham-lincoln-deciding-the-fate-of-300-indians-convicted-of-war-crimes-in-minnesotas-great-sioux-uprising.htm

On December 27 President Lincoln received a telegram from (Commanding General) Sibley: “I have the honor to inform you that the thirty-eight Indians and half-breeds, ordered by you for execution, were hung yesterday at Mankato, at 10 a.m.

Everything went off quietly, and the other prisoners are well secured.” The politicians and citizens of Minnesota had taken the president’s order with a smoldering reserve, and there were no acts of vigilantism or mob law. The Dakota plunged simultaneously to their deaths on one giant gallows before thousands of spectators. It remains the largest mass execution in American history. In the next year Sibley led a punitive expedition against those Dakota who had escaped after the conflict.

A settler killed Little Crow after the Indian had sneaked back into Minnesota. After spending a freezing, disease-ridden winter at Fort Snelling, the remaining Dakota were banished to an inhospitable reservation in South Dakota. All, that is, except one man named Chaska. In an example personifying the trial defects, Chaska—who had saved the lives of captive white women—was errantly hanged instead of one Chaskaydon, convicted of shooting and mutilating a pregnant woman.

The marshal of the prison had gone to release Chaska: “But when I asked for him, the answer was ‘You hung him yesterday.’ I could not bring back the redskin.

How many whites were hanged for "war crimes" during the same conflicts for the American frontier, one wonders? We can find record of none. Indeed, nothing has changed, despite the better angels of even the best of us.

[leveymg]

153. To be "off the reservation" usually meant you were shot on sight.

That's what it meant, in plain terms.

[jwirr]

164. Of course.

[annavictorious]

151. And I'm still reeling over

Dr. Paul Song's "whore" remark. Anyone hear hear anything from the good doctor lately?

[John Poet]

160. On behalf of Hillary's supporters here, I am confident that their attitude

shall be, 'there are no tribal primaries'.


Just like "There is no primary in Honduras."

[Bluenorthwest]

4. Native Americans trend to Bernie so she's doing what she does, take petty swipes at those

she sees as disloyal or haughty in the face of her rule.

[reformist2]

44. Yep. just like young voters, especially young women.

[lunamagica]

64. Wrong

30 Native Leaders Stand With Clinton

Read more at http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2016/03/30/30-native-leaders-stand-clinton-163960
http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2016/03/30/30-native-leaders-stand-clinton-163960

Like every other PoC, they trend Clinton

[BootinUp]

5. What's to defend? Seriously?

I think she handled the question very well actually. She said instead of worrying about what they say about her, she focuses on defending the people from bad policy etc.

Edited:
I have never heard the phrase "off the reservation" used by folks in a context that suggests its a dog whistle.

[JonLeibowitz]

24. See here ---->

http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/06/29/326690947/should-saying-someone-is-off-the-reservation-be-off-limits

Your ignorance of how it causes offense does not lessen its offense.

[BootinUp]

29. I scanned the article

I have no issue with someone that thinks its time for it to go away because of its origins. But I still think that I am correct in saying it is not a dog whistle in the context Clinton used, nor is it currently used that way. I do not think an apology for the use here is called for.

[JonLeibowitz]

37. No I don't think it is a dog whistle either.

[H2O Man]

79. gross

[BootinUp]

87. Is that going to be your entire contribution

to the thread?

[polly7]

94. That should be enough. It is what it is.

Gross.

[BootinUp]

95. bravo.

[Aerows]

166. Here:

[font color=red size=36] GROSS![/font]

[cherokeeprogressive]

142. How do you think it originated?

[Lazy Daisy]

169. replace reservation

with plantation. Now you get it? It's a historically horrific statement, and terribly racist.

[Zynx]

6. It's a very widely used colloquialism.

Admittedly, not a favorite of mine, but people use it all of the time.

[polly7]

8. I would never, ever use it myself and don't hear it here at all.

We have First Nations reservations very close by ........ people know exactly how offensive it is.

[Zynx]

15. I couldn't tell you to within 1,000 times how many times I've heard it.

I don't believe Wisconsin to be uniquely insensitive on this front.

[polly7]

22. I think it's disgusting.

I have friends at a reserve nearest me who'd be hurt very much if they heard it. They have enough to deal with. 'Drunken Indian let loose to cause trouble' and all that, no-one with functioning grey matter isn't aware of how the term has been used for decades by bigots.

[leftofcool]

53. http://www.democraticunderground.com/1107121152

[Aerows]

167. And you should be ashamed of yourself for that post

Every single time Hillary blunders, someone thanks liberals for their sudden "concern".

Since when in the fuck is it a "sudden concern" to liberals when people make bigoted statements?

Do you honestly think that no one on DU is a Native American? Do you honestly think that any liberal would stand for bigoted comments, no matter who they were directed at?

Seriously, Hillary supporters need to quit questioning why people are "concerned" about bigotry and wonder why they *aren't* concerned about bigotry.

Last I checked that is a Democratic party value, and if you don't like people pointing out bigotry, the fucks I give are in the negatives.

[Live and Learn]

28. Used only by the ignorant. nt

[RufusTFirefly]

42. That's mighty white of you to say.

Let's face it: Clinton's campaign knew full well that she runs into trouble whenever she's not reading from a script. That's why they worked so hard to limit the debates.

[Vattel]

100. A phrase can be offensive even if in common use (e.g., "illegal immigrant")

[tritsofme]

7. You guys are fucking ridiculous. No apology forthcoming.

[caraher]

9. Where did she ever defend Zimmerman?

Trayvon's mother endorsed her, and she has said Zimmerman should never have been allowed to own a gun.

[Arkansas Granny]

10. Oh, just stop. As another poster mentioned, these are common colloquialisms that have been used

in this country for decades. Just because some people attach another meaning to the phrases it doesn't mean that apologies should be demanded from anyone who uses them in conversation.

[riderinthestorm]

13. I think we need 85 million threads thrashing this, just like Bernie saying "token"

Just to be fair. Or maybe we need the 110 billion outraged threads about it, just like you all did with "corporate whore" amirite?

[arcane1]

19. Don't forget the phony outrage over Bernie's use of "ghetto"

Wow, they really piled on with their dishonest "offense" then!

[riderinthestorm]

20. Oh so right. The shrieking decibel level over that was insane

What's crazy is "off the reservation" actually is offensive. But the Bernie Sanders supporters will let this one go soon enough because we just don't roll that way.

[vintx]

26. They only dish it out. When it's served back to them they cry foul. nt

[Kentonio]

39. Like the 'common' use of Native American stereotypes in things like sport team names and logos?

Or perhaps the way racist African American related imagery and expressions were 'common' until a few decades ago?

[Arkansas Granny]

61. If you look hard enough, anyone can make a statement that someone else might find offensive.

For example, to "stand your ground" used to be considered a desirable trait. It meant defending yourself and your beliefs, not backing down, not be bullied.. However, since those words have been used in connection to the tragic death of a young man that the phrase now has a negative connotation and should no longer be used. Not everyone got the message.

[ret5hd]

51. That's mighty white of ya'. Just call a spade a spade and be done with it!

[IdaBriggs]

131. Like "corporate whore"? nt

[Blue_In_AK]

11. It may be a common colloquialism,

but definitely tone deaf for a Democratic politician and a phrase that should be mothballed.

[Nye Bevan]

12. She probably was not aware that the phrase has become politically incorrect.

Probably not a bad idea to apologize to anyone who was offended.

[RoccoR5955]

14. Yeah, she has to "evolve" into realizing

that this comment is patently racist against native Americans.
Yet another point on which Clinton has to get with the program!

[Zynx]

16. This is phony outrage.

[RoccoR5955]

17. I guess in some people's opinions it is

But ask a Native American.

[leftofcool]

31. Yes, thank you. As a registered tribal member, it is not offensive.

[polly7]

34. You live on a reservation?

I have friends who do who would probably pound the p* out of anyone saying it to their face, and I wouldn't even bother to intervene.

[leftofcool]

55. Not now. Growing up I did for about 8 years.

[polly7]

56. Well then you should know how difficult life is on some reservations in the first place ...

and in the second, how much Native Americans and First Nations People still fight the racism when they do leave them - including ugly, bigoted language.

[leftofcool]

77. You wouldn't know the first thing about it

Instead of whining about something not even related to Native American why not do something to help Native Americans. Here is a good program to get you started:

http://www.anelder.org/

[polly7]

82. Really? You need to think again, except I don't really give a shit what you think.

I'm not the one trying to minimize bigotry.

[okasha]

99. Thank you for your patronizing false outrage.

You "don't give a shit" what an actual Native American actually thinks about the phrase.

You do realize--no, you probably don't--that that hypocrisy is offensive to us.

[polly7]

101. I give a shit what any indiginous person would think about a phrase

that's been used to put them down with since it first originated. Just as I do about bigotry towards anyone.

Your defense of it is more than offensive, it's sickening. Check out a mirror for the hypocrisy, if you call yourself a moral and decent human being.

[okasha]

108. I call myself Tsalagi, Western Band, Ani Tlvdatsi of the Ani Sahoni.

Twice now, you've been told by indigenous persons that the phrase is far less offensive than the false indignation of a white person.

How many times does it take to get through to you?

[polly7]

110. Good for you.

I call myself a human being who cares about everyone and anyone, regardless of who they are.

You can shove your claim to be the only one with a right to care about people - indigenous, or anyone else, straight up your *.

[okasha]

112. I made no such claim.

Perhaps you need to take a few minutes to get control of all that hyped-up indignation.

[polly7]

113. And perhaps you need to check out that mirror. nt.

[Number23]

117. I gotta say, I've seen some bullshit around here but the garbage that you and leftofcool have had to

swallow in this thread is definitely up there.

It's not the first time I've seen someone who is not a member of an affected community feel the need to "explain" something to someone who IS a member but it's definitely the first time I've seen it done in such a moronic and hateful manner. Props to you and leftofcool for not saying EXACTLY what you wanted to say. I know that must have been hard.

[okasha]

118. Thank you!

It's irritating to be Whitesplained by someone who obviously has no idea what s/he's talking about and then goes on to try to out-PC you on the proper designation of your own people.

But you and other members of the AA group know this better than any of us. Until the language police staggered onto the scene today, Bernie and his supporters have pretty much ignored NDN's. You guys have been under assault from.the beginning.

[Number23]

135. And even seeing how this bullshit behavior has affected their candidate, they still just can't help

themselves. It will be one of the many, many things discussed in the post-mortem of his candidacy.

Yeah, we've been under assault from the beginning but keep in mind, this is the same group that tried to pretend that when Sanders said "when you talk about ghettos, traditionally you are talking about African American ones" he was talking about everything but what he ACTUALLY SAID he was talking about. Squawking "Warsaw ghettos! Warsaw!!" in a pathetic and stupid attempt to deflect from what he actually said.

And when actual black people expressed shock and dismay over his comment, these same folks brushed it off and complained it was "manufactured outrage." But here, you have actual Native Americans saying that what Hillary said was a storm in a tea cup and these same folks that brushed off the concerns of black people are now determined to be outraged on BEHALF of you guys, I guess because you are too stupid to know that you've been insulted. I'd say what I want about these people but at this point, the whole damn Internet has said it 5000 times already.

[politicaljunkie41910]

121. Thanks for calling Polly7 out on her hypocrisy. It's getting beyond ridiculous.

[Baobab]

130. She's trying to demean native Americans by implying that they are similar to Trump

She also should disclose that she and Trump are friends.

[okasha]

143. Ah, no.

You're trying to demean a Native American (me) by offering your truly crackbrained "interpretation" of Hillary's words. Do you really think that Native Americans are stupid enough to believe your shite? Are you that stupid?

[Nye Bevan]

73. YES. "Pounding the p*" out of someone is MUCH better than politely explaining why it's offensive.

You have some great friends.

[polly7]

75. I do have GREAT friends. Thanks.

That is how offensive that term would be taken by them, and I couldn't give a shit what level of outrage you think they should hold to. I worked in bars for many years and watched waaaay too many come into town and get beaten up - talked to in horrible ways first though - by bigots who believed they should 'stay in their reservations' and so many ugly things I won't even post of.

Yes, they're good people. NO, they don't have to take bigotry with the politeness you think they should. I don't like violence ... but if I walked up to, for example, a black person and asked why they were off the plantation, do you not think I'd get my face punched in? It's the SAME ugly bigotry and stereo-typing.

[okasha]

105. "Some of her best friends are Native."

We've heard that dog- whistle often enough.

Lots of white noses out of joint in this thread. Not so many darker ones.

[polly7]

107. No, some of my friends are 'First Nations People'.

I live 20 minutes from them. I played ball and hockey against them for two decades and got to know some very, very well. I've worked with two with the ambulance service over the years. I see many EVERY second day at the store, the dentist, doctor, the bar .... wherever the fuck we want to be.

No, those I even know well are not my 'best friends', they're good, loyal friends. And they'd never stand for bullshit like yours face to face. Though I doubt anyone here would dare.

[leftofcool]

33. No it is not!

I don't know anyone our Tribal Council who would think this.

[tritsofme]

18. LOL, should we ask Tom Petty for an apology too? Some people really are way off the reservation

This is probably the most ridiculous spat of whining I've seen in weeks, and that says a lot given what has transpired over that time.

[Tarc]

21. Lol, political correctness

[JonLeibowitz]

25. How.....trumpian?

[Live and Learn]

30. No kidding. Pathetic, isn't it. nt

[Tarc]

115. No, just no desire to be language policed by the losing candidate's fanboys

[ucrdem]

23. What did I miss? It's a perfectly reasonable and rational response yes?

[leftofcool]

27. I am a registered tribal member. It's just more whining bullshit!

And by the way, Indian Country Today is not representative of most NAs.

[Live and Learn]

32. Pretty sure you don't speak for the majority. nt

[leftofcool]

52. I think I can and here is what is offensive:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1107121152

[Live and Learn]

70. You are correct. That is a highly offensive OP.

Claiming DUers haven't supported Native Americans is total crap.

[leftofcool]

78. You really want to put your money where your mouth is try this:

http://www.anelder.org/

[seabeyond]

35. Then again, calling Clinton a whore is merely.... "insensitive".

[ucrdem]

40. LOL

Yeah not exactly equivalent. I missed it the first time as I hadn't heard this objection before but it's a fine objection so it probably wouldn't hurt to apologize as she obviously hadn't heard it before either.

The thing is, "off the reservation" is a euphemism for "f*cked up bigtime," so now a euphemism for the euphemism needs to be found. Something tells me "senior moment" isn't gonna fly.

[kennetha]

36. Wow.

A phrase that maybe had a derogatory beginning a couple of hundred years ago, loses any real hint of derogation in ordinary usage. Some people decide they want to single handedly resurrect its derogatory status, and thereby make it an utterable word, and turn anyone who uses it -- without even the hint of derogatory intent -- into some kind of racist.

The wonders of linguistic politics.


For some history of the phrase

http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/06/29/326690947/should-saying-someone-is-off-the-reservation-be-off-limits

[Kentonio]

41. Which other racist phrases would you like to defend given their common usage?

[kennetha]

47. hmm

phrase with a "radicalized" origin

and "racist phrase"

are not synonyms.

[Kentonio]

49. Phrases that come into being as degoratory towards a minority are by their very definition racist.

[kennetha]

50. you have no idea how language works

really, none.

[Kentonio]

54. Good work.

It's always a sign of a strong position when you have to fall back on 'You're like just totally wrong and stupid!'.

[kennetha]

57. I could give you a course in social linguistics

but I don't have time for that. Sorry.

[Kentonio]

147. Maybe after you spend more time..

Learning about the racist derivation of many commonly used expressions and how they still invoke feelings of ostracization in ethic communities you might be in a better position to start.

[snowy owl]

38. Small thing. It would be nice if we could all lose those kinds of colloquialisms. Me, too.

[loyalsister]

43. This is not a dog whistle

it's bigoted language. It's a metaphor that was originally and intentionally used to disparage Native Americans.

I agree about the machismo language. She has a habit of doing that ("we came, we saw, he died&quot . It is a huge turn off coming from anyone.

[kennetha]

48. about 200 years ago.

does not reflect its current usage

[loyalsister]

60. That terms only has meaning because of it's usage from 200 yrs. ago

As ordinary compassionate and culturally competent people have grown more educated and sensitive, they have realized it is indefensible bigotry to use that and other ugly colloquialisms. Sec. Clinton continues to show her true colors.

[polly7]

59. Yes, it is bigoted and ugly language. nt.

[Travis_0004]

45. Some people are too easily offended

Who cares. Maybe she should have chose her words better, but lets just move on.

[IdaBriggs]

134. Yes. Just like we all did from the reference to "corporate whore".

[ohheckyeah]

46. CNN played it often enouh to make sure to get people pissed off. Everybody who hates Hillary

Feel better? She's already apologized.

[yallerdawg]

58. Isn't it amazing!

Her answer to the question about the bizarre candidacy of Trump, his outlandish comments repeated by Tappart and how she will handle it in her campaign - and you find three freaking words to bash Hillary one more time!

Is it a compulsion?

[oasis]

124. So many here are getting called out on their fake outrage.

Most entertaining.

[Beacool]

62. No need to defend nor apologize.

It's a colloquialism that has been used for many years.

Much ado about nothing......

[polly7]

63. It means EXACTLY the same to indigenous people as 'being let off the plantation'

would mean to a black person or 'barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen' for a woman.

What is so hard to get about that and why would it not be offensive???

[Beacool]

65. Oh please, always with the fake outrage.

[polly7]

66. I DO get outraged when whole groups of people are considered not worthy of respect.

You fucking betcha.

[Beacool]

67. Did Native Americans file a complaint over Hillary's use of that colloquialism?

Other than Nina Turner, that is. She's a Sanders' supporter.

[polly7]

69. I have no idea if anyone has or will file a formal complaint about her using that bigoted term. nt.

[leftofcool]

80. No and no. Isn't the concern touching?

[R B Garr]

88. +1 Nina looked positively thrilled at the opportunity to smear Clinton. She

was giddy about it. Her demeanor made me realize it's more about Clinton gotchas than actual "concern". Sanders' whole campaign is nothing but maligning Clinton. So tired of their phoniness.

[kennetha]

91. Can't stand Nina

[Beacool]

92. Of course it is.

That's why I labeled it as "fake outrage". The vultures are out in force.

[polly7]

93. The only thing 'fake' here appears to be you.

Defending bigotry.

I wouldn't brag about it, it's no wonder you're projecting it onto me.

[panader0]

84. So is the N-word.

[silvershadow]

68. I bet she didn't say that when she visited the Native American communities. Oh, wait-

she didn't visit those communities at all. Bernie is the only one who did. Bernie is the only Presidential candidate ever to do so. Thats' right.

[Beacool]

72. She has met with tribal leaders over the years.

This is the latest meeting from March.

"Hillary Clinton met with Native American tribal leaders in Washington state Tuesday, promising to be a "good partner."

Clinton visited Chief Leschi Schools in Puyallup, where she appeared before more than 40 people. The school has about 1,000 students from preschool to 12th grade.

After a musical performance, tribe chairman Bill Sterud introduced Clinton, recalling when tribe members marched in an inaugural parade for President Bill Clinton. He said the tribe has a number of needs, including help with cleaning up Puget Sound."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/latest-clinton-meets-tribal-leaders-washington-234310906--election.html?ref=gs

[silvershadow]

74. Darn it! Foiled again! Well I tried.

[okasha]

119. One of the first things she did as First Lady

was meet with the Haudinasone Grandmothers.
Now-President Obama visited the Crow reservation when he was still a candidate. Sanders has missed being "first" by a couple decaded.

[leftofcool]

83. Bernie has never done anything for Native Americans

Here, send him this link and maybe he will do something:

http://www.anelder.org/

[Lazy Daisy]

170. Maybe look before leaping

http://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-native-american-rights/

https://berniesanders.com/issues/empower-tribal-nations/

Supporting Hillary to the fullest enthusiasm is great. Don't disparage the other candidates with lies to do so though.
It's unbecoming.

[DCBob]

71. Wiktionary defintion: (US, politics) To break with one's party or group, usually temporarily.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/go_off_the_reservation

[Gormy Cuss]

85. Same source:

go off the reservation

(literally) To leave a reservation to which one was restricted.

And there's no dispute that the principal meaning is traced to its origins, so when a pol uses it, it's at best insensitive.

[DCBob]

89. "Literally".. no one uses that term literally or interprets it as literally.

[Gormy Cuss]

149. The source draws a straight line from the literal origin to the figurative use

and you chose to ignore that in your post. That's a bit dishonest.

[okasha]

120. Are you aware that all military bases

are also referred to as "reservations?" "Off the reservation" also means AWOL, though I believe it's falling out of use in that context.

Not all reservations are "Indian reservations." But keep the outrage going.

PS--I had a look at your link. The phrase also means "to break with one's political party," which seems to describe at least two candidates currently seeking nomination.

[Gormy Cuss]

150. Are you aware that there is no such association at the link?

And I'm not "outraged." I'm just pointing out that the phrase is indeed problematic because it derives from a racist origin.

[okasha]

161. The military usage is not documented at the link,

which is why I noted that it seemed to be passing out of usage. It was, however, used by my father's generation to refer to military bases, and he was a career Army officer until he got crosswise with his Colonel and resigned. All "Indian reservations," by the way, were originally military installations. You can't have a concentration camp without guards, after all.

[Lazy Daisy]

171. How old is your dad?

Because for the last 40 years I've known Army is either Fort or Post

[Chasstev365]

81. Ever Notice It's Always the Same Hillary Aologists on DU Who Downplay Everything She Says?

[kennetha]

90. This sort of nonsense

Is what gives the left a bad name in many circles. Let's focus on real things not this sort of silliness, please.

We've got an election to win

[TM99]

141. So does that mean

that y'all have evolved and find the phrase 'Democratic corporate whores' now fully acceptable for every day use?

[cherokeeprogressive]

145. Okay, how about the Death Penalty? Compromising on abortion? The TPP?

[jillan]

86. I don't know what's worse. The fact that she said it or the fact that so many people are defending

her saying this.

[Smarmie Doofus]

96. Zillions of reasons for sane people NOT to vote for HRC.

But good grief: we are now stretching ID politics and PC to the level of MEGA-absurdity.

Most normal people cans see this; many DUers, tragically, cannot.


As some grown-up upthread pointed-out: they are *colloquialisms*.

AS SUCH: Her use of them does NOT mean she hates Native Americans or loves George Zimmerman.

Good god. Can we talk... and *think*... about important stuff now?

[Lizzie Poppet]

106. So by that standard, "off the plantation" is okay, right?

How about "mighty white of ya?"

Just colloquialisms, after all...

[lindysalsagal]

97. The comment made me wince. She should apologize. Simple. Done.

Indigenous people were forced onto reservations for immoral grred, hatred, and bigotry. Not something that should be used casually.

[rock]

98. "off the reservation" may be slightly insensitive

Let's hear what some American Indians have to say, shall we? I completely defer to them.

[seabeyond]

122. This is what a spokesman for Native American said:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1871606

[rock]

125. That is about the most even response I could imagine

Thank you seabeyond!

[seabeyond]

126. You are welcome. I think so also, especially as I have not considered it myself.

hearing it called out, I totally agree we can throw it away. I am a proponent that words matter. It still generates the "isms" that are unacceptable. It is not hard at all for me to simply reject any form of denigration.

Lesson learned. Another one. There will be others. I have had these considerations with sexist slurs, anti gay slurs. Things we do not even consider because they have become a part of our day.

[passiveporcupine]

102. I hope this won't turn into a popegate.

This is the 2nd thread on this topic, and I hope there won't be too many more.

What she said was careless, but she was not intentionally demeaning Native Americans, and I think we all know that.

It would be nice if she apologizes, but she doesn't apologize for much, so don't get your hopes up.

Let's just let this drop soon...Kay?

[Vinca]

103. This is one of those things that is fine for Hillary to say, but a criminal offense if Bernie does.

She's a saint. A halo follows her around. She does not offend.

[Smarmie Doofus]

109. You don't know how lucky you are.

Or DO you?

[Califonz]

129. I see only 25 of 125 posts in this thread!

Arguing with shills is like wrestling with a pig...

[Smarmie Doofus]

111. A much as I can't STAND Clinton.....

.... your critique is beyond the pale.

[Fairgo]

114. Sorry pal, it's all foam,

no beer.

There's enough real outrage brewing out there...no need to mug a figure of speech.

[Squinch]

116. Maybe what you need is a nap. Are you getting enough sleep?

[Spacedog1973]

123. Typical

[MrWendel]

140. THIS.

[Cheese Sandwich]

127. This isn't her first display of casual racism. She's got quite a long history of it actually

[2banon]

132. Non-Conscience Bigotry in political language context is the problem.

I believe is the issue....

[Jitter65]

133. Try something else, please. Desperation is showing nt.

[postatomic]

136. My only question

Is why the fuck is The Sandman sticking up for Clump? Maybe the two of them should become running mates and Clump can help The Sandman attract furry animals to live on his head.

[cherokeeprogressive]

144. The replies to this thread PROVE we are in Bizarro World. Hillary could use RETARD as an insult...

and you people would say "She's from Arkansas! That's what they say when they buy new tires for their car!" even though she hasn't driven one in decades.

Hillary could Call Elton John a faggot, and you people would say "Faggot? That's a cigarette!"

Hillary could call Ellen Degeneres and Jodie Foster lesbos and you people would say "Lesbos? That's an island in the Mediterranean!"

Hillary could piss in Michelle Obama's Wheaties and you people would defend it somehow.

It's fucking bizarre and sad.

[bobbobbins01]

146. I honestly wouldn't have picked up on it...but I did notice something else.

I posted this in the other thread about this, but I'll repeat it...Imagine if Bernie had said:

"I have a lot of experience dealing with women who sometimes get off the reservation in the way they behave and how they speak."

Heads would be exploding.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

148. I wonder how the apologists feel about the Washington Redskins.

[Ned_Devine]

155. It's one of those expressions people say without thinking, but a definite no-no in broadcasting

I worked for a broadcast clearing house in Boston for a number of years where we provided news, traffic, weather and sports for nearly every radio and television station in New England and several other states. In the middle of the banter one of our anchors used the expression with the affiliate host on the other end and we had to do a lot of clean up over it.

[salinsky]

157. Reminds me of that old Seinfeld episode ...

[procon]

159. Trump and his loyalists are making the same comments I'm reading in this thread.

On a scale of 1-to-10, where does it fall and how much credence should I give her remark? Is it more than a stupid gaff, more like a deliberate insult, or proof she hates native americans, an intentional or unfortunate gift to her detractors?

[underthematrix]

163. You're right. It's offensive but is that

gonna make me wanna switch my vote to Bernie in the CA primary? Nope. I'm still going with the MOST qualified candidate. The lawyer, the former FLOTUS, senator, Secretary of State and author.

I recall a time when white folks used to address black people on the street EVERY DAY ALL DAY with hey n*****

PBO handled it so well at WHCD re CP Time when he called it "things white people shouldn't say."

[Lazy Daisy]

172. DING DING DING

Exactly right. This isn't the end of the world. She misspoke. If she comes out and says she used a phrase that's inappropriate (which I think I read she has) then done. It's not an outrage thing, it's an oh shit thing.

I think where the outrage is coming in is the defense of it. It's wrong, say it's wrong, correct it going forward and move on.

[dana_b]

168. "Off the plantation"

For those of you who think this is no big deal, would you accept it if she had used "off the plantation" instead of "off the reservation"? Or is that offensive? I think it's very offensive JUST as "off the reservation" is to Native Americans.

[underthematrix]

173. Well for me it falls under the category of no BIG deal

when I compare it to a candidate who chooses as their AA outreach ambassador a man who referred to my beloved President as the first "niggerized president" - that candidate would never be my FIRST choice. I would only vote for him if I had no other DEM choice

Hillary grew up in a conservative Republican household so she knows these people well. Her father used the N word until he died as a descriptor for black people. Thank God she had a mother who wanted her to be somebody who encouraged her to challenge the narrow mindedness of her upbringing. Thank God she attended Wellesley a college where wealthy white women were more likely to harbor liberal views on social issues.

Hillary's consciousness would never allow her to select someone so disrespectful to my beloved President as her outreach person. Non POCs may hate President Obama but in the AA community, he is everything to MOST of us.

But here's what I really care about - BLACK EXCELLENCE BLACK WEALTH BLACK SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY BLACK PARENTING BLACK POWER BLACK LEGACY BLACK HISTORY. I care more about the number of POCs being accepted to ivy league colleges. Malia is going to HARVARD! Thank you POTUS and FLOTUS. You did good! Another young AA woman got accepted to 8 ivy league colleges and she also chose HARVARD!. She decided on HARVARD because they already have a large group of Nigerian-Americans attending. We have the Urban Academy in Chicago (all male school) in which 100% of its AA graduates go on to four year colleges and universities. This is everything. I try to encourage my people not to get sidetracked by the bullshit which is worrying about something some white peep said.

We can worry about white folks saying things they shouldn't or we can position ourselves to assume leadership positions that frame the conversation. Yes we should confront the racist text but then we need to move on and pursue those things that will have a long term positive impact on the AA community, the nation and the world.

Hillary is not afraid or jealous of successful powerful AA peeps. We know this because they make up a lot of her inner circle. So yeah #ImWithAuntee #ImWithHer