Can't Choose Between Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton. Any suggestions?

[gobears10]

Last edited Mon Jul 6, 2015, 07:08 PM - Edit history (2)

Hello DU!

I've thoroughly analyzed the policy positions of both Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton, and I admire them both. If Hillary were to win the nomination, I would absolutely support her for president. However, despite volunteering for HRC in 2008, I'm willing to reconsider my support for her and back Sanders.

I admire Hillary Clinton because I think she's a pragmatist. She knows how the system works, and may be better than President Obama in dealing with a GOP-led Congress. While progressives should never lose sight of their long term goals, we must be realistic, and work on incremental changes while tying those to a broader desire for systemic change. In my view, Senator Sanders isn't as experienced in having to compromise and eke out legislative victories in the face of harsh opposition: he seems to be very firm in his convictions, which is both a positive and negative in politics.

I think HRC has updated most of her views on social issues since her 2008 run. It was bad that she opposed gay marriage for so long, but she welcomed the 2015 SCOTUS ruling on nationwide marriage equality. She called for immigration reforms that go further than what President Obama has done with his EOs. Her speech on mass incarceration was fantastic, and she's been front-and-center in talking about how America's not post-racial, how we need to solve gun violence, and how we need to address systemic racism and white privilege head on. Hillary's forcefully talked about racism in voter ID laws, and has brought up very important feminist issues. I feel on identity politics issues, at the moment, she is more vocal and forceful than Bernie Sanders. I understand that Hillary can be opportunistic and a cold-blooded politician at times, with her using a SuperPAC. But you have to play by the rules of the game in order to win. I think Sanders' unilateral disarmament of not using a SuperPAC will hurt him. Hillary has said she wants to overturn Citizens United with a constitutional amendment.

Yes, Hillary has supported horrible policies in the past: the Iraq War, the 2001 bankruptcy legislation, Bill Clinton's tough on crime policies, Clinton's "welfare reform" that hurt poor women of color, drug war policies, etc. She opposed comprehensive immigration reform for a while in her 2008 run, and opposed giving undocumented immigrants driver's licenses. She was against raising the cap on SS taxes in 2008, and opposed increasing the capital gains tax rate. She's cultivated strong ties with Wall Street. Having said that, I'm not someone who is a pure dove on foreign policy. I support arming Syrian rebels, am generally a supporter of Israel (despite disliking Netanyahu), and while drone strikes should be reformed, in general, I am supportive of their use. I also think we should be tough on Iran, and ensuring that it doesn't develop a nuclear weapon, and I support economic sanctions as a strategy.

So I'm more moderate on some foreign policy issues. Also on economics, I'm more moderate than some progressives. I support raising the minimum wage, but a nationwide $15 minimum wage could affect small businesses. I oppose the TPP, but I'm not against trade deals in general (Bernie Sanders is against trade in almost all cases, which I oppose. I think good trade deals are better than protectionism). I don't think we should "audit the Fed," and feel that that's bad economics. And to be fair, HRC has criticized the TPP, saying it doesn't crack down on currency manipulation, and that she'd probably vote "no" on fast track. Also, the scientific consensus is that GMOs are perfectly safe to consume, and nuclear power makes sense, so on these issues, I'm more moderate, and my views align better with Hillary's than Bernie's.

And Hillary Clinton's economic agenda will be far more populist than anything her husband, President Bill Clinton, would have endorsed in the 1990s. And even then, Hillary was a progressive, fighting for universal healthcare in the 1990s. And she's not necessarily beholden to Wall Street: as a presidential candidate in 2008, Hillary Clinton infuriated some of her Wall Street donors when she proposed raising taxes on investment-fund managers by eliminating the "carried interest" loophole. Mrs. Clinton also directly attacked the financial-services industry for causing the housing and financial crisis, and called for regulation of financial derivatives, instruments which had been free from regulation and oversight after a law Bill Clinton signed his last year in office. Hillary also lamented economic inequality, proposing several solutions to the problem, and vowing to create a cabinet-level position to fight poverty. Hillary's blasted excessive CEO pay, the mismatch between productivity and paychecks, and student debt.

I also think Hillary is better than Bernie in talking about and advocating for racial issues and gun control.

Plus, America still faces much sexism and misogyny in many areas, both in blatant and subtle forms, and elected the first female president would be a huge accomplishment.

Having said that, there are areas on which I absolutely prefer Bernie Sanders' policies to Hillary Clinton's. Bernie has been consistent on his views for over 40 years, which I admire. I strongly support single-payer, Medicare-for-All healthcare, to the extent that that's one of the most important issues to me personally. Hillary Clinton has previously claimed she's opposed to single-payer healthcare, preferring to build off of the existing third-party, employer-based system of private insurance. She thinks single-payer is incredibly unrealistic because of the opposition it would face from the insurance industry, and feels that Americans wouldn't want "socialized medicine." That makes me strongly dislike Hillary. She even attacked Obama from the right in 2008 because Obama supported single-payer a few years back. I thought that was low and pathetic.

Bernie says we should raise top marginal tax rates above 50% for the very rich, which I absolutely agree with. Bernie says that we should break up the too big to fail banks and reinstate Glass-Steagall, an issue on which Hillary Clinton is silent on, because she got 400k in speaking fees from Goldman Sachs. I like Bernie's idea of helping worker-owned cooperatives. Bernie has a full throttled defense of labor unions, the decline of which has been one of the worst national tragedies in my opinion. He vigorously opposes the TPP, which Hillary has waffled on. I strongly support Bernie's policies to tax wall street speculation to pay for tuition free college at public universities. Hillary has only vaguely talked about "debt free college." I don't think we should cut entitlement programs or do a chained CPI, and we should instead expand SS, Medicare, and Medicaid, as well as food stamps, child nutrition programs, and public education. I also do support Bernie's $1 trillion stimulus in rebuilding infrastructure and rebuilding the middle class. Bernie's also way better than Hillary on the environment, with Hillary being a huge proponent of hydrofracking, a practice that I feel should be banned. Bernie's consistently also opposed the Keystone XL.

Bernie's been super consistent on LGBT rights, supporting full LGBT equality in the 1970s, supporting gay pride parades as Burlington mayor, opposing DOMA in 1996, and supporting marriage equality before HRC. Bernie's been ahead of the curve on addressing mass incarceration, for-profit prisons, and other racial issues, being a civil rights activist in his youth. He talked about economic progressive ideas way before Elizabeth Warren was. He's better than Hillary on civil liberties (NSA, drug war, Patriot Act, flag burning amendment), death penalty, and refugee issues. Hillary wanted to send back the refugees from Central America back to their home country, while Bernie supported helping them.

Hillary's trying to craft a message that is progressive without vilifying the very wealthy, who constitute her donor base. While crafting a message that appeals to the middle class, she also can't be too liberal, otherwise she'll piss of investment bankers, large corporations, and tech moguls who are giving her lots of money. Her message is the standard Democratic Party establishment message (albeit a more version) that "if we're all in this together, we'll all be better off." She feels that a rising tide lifts all boats, and we should increase the pie for everyone, and that a more inclusive economy based on middle class economics will uplift everyone: the workers, the middle class, and rich and large corporations. Smart economics will help working families AND improve company profits. Focusing on long-term investment instead of short-term growth will create an environment of sustainable growth that will help everyone. This is all from her kickoff speech.

Bernie, however is different. He wants to directly vilify and attack the billionaire class, large investment banks, and essentially, destroy Wall Street as we know it. He feels that money has been redistributed from the middle class to the upper class, and through his social democratic policies, will redistribute policies back to the working class. He's a modern day democratic socialist whereas Hillary Clinton is a modern day liberal.

I just feel Hillary overall presents herself better, is more professional, is extremely experienced, very brilliant, and super knowledgeable about a whole range of issues. I don't think she's a Third-Way corporatist or DLC centrist like how some on here portray her as. Bill Clinton definitely was, but Hillary's much more liberal as her husband.

But Bernie comes off as disheveled, unprofessional, and very angry at times. But again, I like Bernie's authenticity and honesty, and I feel his frustration, and understand why his style is what America needs. I just don't know if that will be appropriate if he's elected president. Hillary at least will give progressives a seat at the table: yes, she's consulted by Larry Summers, and other Wall Street insiders, but also has reached out to Joseph Stiglitz, Paul Krugman, and Robert Reich. So it's not as if Hillary will screw over progressives.

Having said that, Hillary's "professionalism" can be pretty damn pathetic at times. She comes off as super calculating, changing her message to whatever audience she's dealing with. Her speech is always controlled, and her so called "town hall" events were in tightly controlled settings. I'm tired of focus-group tested, blow-dried answers. Bernie is a super blunt, straight-talker. Hillary, instead, shifts her opinions based on the polls. I admire Bernie's surge in Iowa, where he captured 33% of support from likely primary voters in the Democratic Party, and how he's only 8% down in NH behind Hillary. His grassroots campaign raised $15 million in such a short time, he's racked up key endorsements, he's gaining labor union support, and he's drawing out massive, massive crowds. That speech at Madison where he drew 10k people was amazing. I don't know if Hillary can generate such organic crowds of people that are truly that passionate about her. Bernie's unvarnished liberal message is resonating with a lot of voters, which is why I'm considering him.

But I'm torn. I think both of these are excellent candidates with their unique strengths and negatives. What do you all recommend?

[daleanime]

1. Duck....

[PADemD]

2. ...

[Ron Green]

3. Hmm, let's see... The unvarnished truth, or

the untruthful varnish? How to choose, how to choose?

[Enthusiast]

48. LOL!

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[virtualobserver]

4. Bernie represents a more dramatic shift......but both will be pragmatic in certain ways

Do you feel that the country needs a dramatic shift?

[gobears10]

9. good

if you can convince me that Bernie can be pragmatic, and is willing to work across the isle to forge reasonable compromises, I will be much more inclined to support him. I want a POTUS that can get stuff done, rather than just talk about stuff.

How will Bernie be successful if a GOP led Congress blocks everything he wants? I just feel Hillary will be more savvy in dealing with them, and will be more creative in her uses of executive power to address climate change, help working class americans with overtime pay issues, etc.

But if you can convince me that Bernie's capable of being pragmatic, and he has concrete legislative accomplishments, I'll probably back him.

[randys1]

13. As long as the teaparty has any influence, both Bernie AND Hillary can stand on their heads

if they want to, because the American Taliban, the America hating teaparty assholes, will oppose them as they have Obama for the same reason.

Well, in Hillary's case it will be because she is a she, and in Bernie's case it will be because he is a socialist or some nonsense like that.

Neither will get a drop of cooperation from the terrorist organization known as the teaparty.

Therefore why not have the most aggressive person in the WH, the one who will AT LEAST talk about what we need, even if the terrorists wont allow it.

[sabrina 1]

44. Bernie will not negotiate with terrorists from the TP. That will be the difference. Hillary

like Obama, has stated she will 'work with Republicans'. IF I had been a supporter that statement would have lost me right there.

Reaching across the aisle she claims, is the way to go.

So it would be eight more years of the same thing.

No thank you.

Sanders unlike either Hillary or Obama, has no problem slamming Republicans right to their faces and he enjoys showing them up, for their obstructionism, their bigotry etc. It is a JOY TO BEHOLD.

So you are quite wrong. Bullies need to be put in their place, and Bernie is just the guy to do it.

To even compare his way of dealing with Republicans to Hillary's like comparing apples and oranges.

He does without the power of the veto pen, watch him when he has the power of the President. I can't wait.

[Human101948]

15. He has meaningful accomplishments, but reaching across the aisle is a fool's errand...

The Republicans will be even crazier if they lose to a "socialist." They did everything possible to block Obama and he isn't even close to a socialist.

But here's an example of Bernie's work--

Over the years, Sanders has tucked away funding for health centers in appropriation bills signed by George W. Bush, into Barack Obama’s stimulus program, and through the earmarking process. But his biggest achievement came in 2010 through the Affordable Care Act. In a series of high-stakes legislative maneuvers, Sanders struck a deal to include $11 billion for health clinics in the law.

The result has made an indelible mark on American health care, extending the number of people served by clinics from 18 million before the ACA to an expected 28 million next year.

As one would expect, the program was largely met with plaudits from patients and public health experts, but it has also won praise from even the biggest Obamacare critics on Capitol Hill. In letters I obtained through multiple record requests, dozens of Republican lawmakers, including members of the House and Senate leadership, have privately praised the ACA clinic funding, calling health centers a vital provider in both rural and urban communities.

read more at--

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/06/gop-senators-support-sanders-obamacare-expansion/

[sabrina 1]

46. Hillary has said she will reach across that aisle,AGAIN.Bernie will be an adult

as he always has been when dealing with these temper throwing children. He will make THEM reach across the aisle.

[virtualobserver]

16. one example, his work on the Veterans Affairs reform bill

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/04/bernie-sanders-2016_n_7514328.html

. Miller called him a "realist" whose inability to play coy was refreshing.

"He is very open and honest as he goes through the process," Miller said. "You know where Bernie is coming from."

Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), who helped write the Senate version of the VA reform bill, praised Sanders for having the gumption to drop F-bombs one minute and counteroffers the next.

"Negotiating with Bernie was not a usual experience, because he is very passionate and he and I are both very strong-willed people and we spend a lot of time banging our fists on the table and having the occasional four-letter word," McCain said. "But at the end of the day, Bernie was result-oriented."


But I do believe, he will make use of the bully pulpit in a big way, which is even more important and he will shape public opinion

[Snotcicles]

18. Well if he wins the presidency, that alone will demonstrate a seismic shift against the odds

that gives his issues a resounding mandate that this country is demanding change.

[R. P. McMurphy]

39. ^^THIS^^ nt

[Admiral Loinpresser]

47. Did you consider Bernie reaching across the aisle to McCain?

On Thursday, McCain and Sanders said that neither side got everything they wanted in the bill.

"But right now we have a crisis on our hands and it is imperative that we deal with that crisis," Sanders said.

http://thehill.com/policy/defense/208396-sanders-mccain-reach-deal-on-va-bill

[Enthusiast]

49. There are few reasonable compromises to be made with radical corporatist Republicans.

Pragmatic in this case means caving to corporate interests. We don't want that kind of pragmatic.

[elleng]

5. HERE:

Martin O'Malley

1. Ended death penalty in Maryland
2. Prevented fracking in Maryland and put regulations in the way to prevent next GOP Gov Hogan fom easily allowing fracking.
3. Provided health insurance for 380,000
4. Reduced infant mortality to an all time low.
5. Provided meals to thousands of hungry children and moved toward a goal for eradicating childhood hunger.
6. Enacted a $10.10 living wage and a $11. minimum wage for State workers.
7. Supporter the Dream Act
8. Cut income taxes for 86% of Marylanders (raised taxes on the rich).
9. Reformed Maryland’s tax code to make it more progressive.
10. Enacted some of the nation’s most comprehensive reforms to protect homeowners from foreclosure.

Mother Jones magazine called him the best candidate on environmental issues.
Article here:
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/12/martin-omalley-longshot-presidential-candidate-and-real-climate-hawk

Meet Martin O’Malley, Hillary Clinton’s Latest Unlikely National Security Critic.

The former Maryland governor offers a more wary foreign policy, contrasting himself with a more hawkish Clinton and Republican field.

If Hillary Clinton is betting that 2016 won't be a national-security election, at least for the Democratic base, Martin O'Malley is betting she's wrong—and that voters want a candidate who will be more wary about wielding U.S. military might.

"The invasion of Iraq, along with the subsequent disarming of the Iraqi army, the military, will be remembered as one of the most tragic, deceitful, and costly blunders in U.S. history," O'Malley told the Truman National Security Project's annual conference. "And we are still paying the price of a war pursued under false pretenses and acquiesced to, in the words of Dr. King, 'by the appalling silence of the good.' "

Though he never mentioned Clinton by name, it was an obvious reference to the former New York senator and others' vote for the Iraq war, and part of an attempt to distance himself from Clinton's more hawkish brand of Democratic foreign policy. "Today's challenges defy easy solutions. We may have the most sophisticated military in the world, but we don't have a silver bullet." . .

He cited the threat foremost in voters' and candidates' minds: the Islamic State. "No threat probably better illustrates the unintended consequences of a mindless rush to war and a lack of understanding than the emergence of ISIS," he said. . .

'Malley responded to Republican candidates' calls to send more U.S. troops to Iraq by noting that the use of U.S. military power could actually boost ISIS. "We must be mindful that American boots on the ground can be counterproductive to our desired outcome. We will not be successful in degrading ISIS if the number of militants taken off the battlefield is exceeded by number of new recruits replacing them," he said.

And in contrast to a Republican field whose speeches are laced with the red meat of "radical Islamic extremism"—an attempted ding at a president who they claim "won't name the enemy"—O'Malley said, "We must do more to amplify credible local voices in the region to reveal ISIS for what it is: a gang of murderous thugs who have perverted the name of one of the world's great religions."

But his clearest attempt to tie Clinton's tenure as secretary of State to what he framed as a short-sighted overeagerness to jump to military force in response to turmoil and instability abroad was in invoking Libya. "We must realize there are real lessons to be learned from the tragedies in Benghazi," he said. "Namely, we need to know, in advance, who is likely to take power or vie for it once a dictator is toppled. Not after." . .

Doug Wilson, formerly an assistant Defense secretary for public affairs and now O'Malley's senior foreign policy adviser—and also chair of Truman's board of advisers—insisted that the candidate's speech was not intended to indict Clinton or any other candidate, but rather to lend some insight into his national security strategy amid questions of how a former governor with little experience on the issue can serve as commander in chief at a time of global turmoil.

"There is no mention of Hillary or the Republicans," Wilson told Defense One. "People knee-jerk frame Benghazi with Hillary. And what he is saying is you've got to stop doing that. Benghazi is not Hillary 2016, Benghazi is an example of what happens when you topple dictators and do not know or understand who comes after them.

"Martin is not poll-driven," he said. "If he was, he wouldn't be in the race. He's doing this because he thinks there needs to be some different discussions going on in terms of America's role in the world. … He's not a Brookings Institute foreign policy wonk, but he's travelled, he's met foreign leaders … he's essentially putting his interest where his mouth is."

http://www.nationaljournal.com/defense/meet-martin-o-malley-hillary-clinton-s-latest-unlikely-national-security-critic-20150629

Buses hydroplane through a torrential downpour; lightning streaks the green leafy expanses of the Eastern Shore of Maryland. Just a day prior, I stood at the Baltimore airport and watched scenes of terrorist attacks on three continents: a beheading, a bombed mosque, a devastated resort. A new resourceful enemy rises from ashes of foreign policy misadventures.

O’Malley and the poetry of greater purpose

I overhear the black workers at the rental car desk reflect on the president’s speech in Charleston, how he had sung “Amazing Grace.” Not one, but two glassy-eyed and homeless men wait for me at the curb of my hotel. One’s sign says, “Homeless with HIV, please help.” It is hard not to be discouraged at home and abroad with such storm clouds.

The buses stop at a house on a river where Gov. Martin O’Malley is having dinner with the friends of a long career. Green plastic tablecloths and cheap fold-up chairs crowd under a tent. Rain stops. Martin joyfully anticipates the fight ahead; gives thanks. Then he surprises with a poem, “These Chesapeake Men” – about fishers who selflessly brave the storm-tossed sea for those they love.

Shades of Robert Kennedy; politics and grace. With Martin, there is a poetry of greater purpose. Just the day prior, Martin gave a landmark foreign policy address, then joined the marriage celebration at the steps of the Supreme Court. A day of boldness of heart and leadership; to which he is no stranger. Passing marriage equality. Defending it at the ballot box. Fifteen years of hands-on executive experience. Data-driven governance. A Maryland DREAM Act. In a phrase, New Leadership.

Martin doesn’t need to “evolve” – he has led; never has that been more clear. On equality, terrorism, gun violence, racism, immigration, climate change, rebuilding our cities, economic rebirth – O’Malley comes out swinging.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/home/17536348-95/my-turn-omalley-and-the-poetry-of-greater-purpose

[djean111]

6. Oh, going to all of this trouble - makes me feel so good and so right about supporting Bernie!

Thank you! PS - this would have been more believable if you asked DU which candidate to choose, and why, not going on at length before, of course, choosing Hillary. After taking cheap shots at Bernie. For myself, I would never ask an online message board which candidate I should support. And you were not, either.

[gobears10]

7. I'm not choosing Hillary

I more or less view them equally, and explained why I like them both. But I'm looking for convincing arguments why I should pick one candidate over the other

[Vincardog]

8. Write down your top 7 priorities. List the candidate next to each one who most reflects

Your position on each issue.
Add up the number of times each candidate appears,
Support the candidate who most strongly supports your interests.

[gobears10]

10. will do

single-payer healthcare is my number one priority. Bernie is the only candidate talking about that. on other issues, including debt free college, ending mass incarceration, protecting Social Security, empowering labor unions, ending Citizens United, and protecting the environment, Bernie outclasses Hillary.

On the issues, Bernie more strongly supports my interests than Hillary then.

[Vincardog]

22. There you have it. Glad I could help you clarify your thinking.

[thesquanderer]

11. I think you have a good balanced perspective

and there's no reason you have to make up your mind now. Between now and primary day, there will be debates and other things that will challenge both their campaigns, and I bet something yet to happen will put you over the edge one way or the other.

[Maedhros]

12. Vote for the candidate that DOESN'T have a history of horrible policy positions...[n/t]

[Snotcicles]

14. Whats the Rush? as far as the Third Way DLC stuff goes,

keep in mind the Clinton Foundation bought the DLC website and historical records. For what purpose I do not know.
But it's not like there isn't a connection or interest there.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

24. CF bought DLC records for

for use/storage/display at Clinton Presidential Center.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0711/DLC_records_to_Clinton_Foundation.html

[demwing]

17. I'm sorry, but I don't believe you are truly divided

You clearly support Hillary. Vote your heart. Not sure what you're up to hear, but it doesn't come across as realistic.

[gobears10]

19. no i don't

how do i clearly support hillary? my number one issue is single-payer healthcare, and hilary opposes that, while bernie has consistently been a strong supporter of it.

[bettyellen]

41. Ignore the paranoia, don't let it effect your judgement of Sanders or Clinton

Lots of good people here giving you advice without that bullshit. You'll get these accusations if you don't hate Clinton. It is what it is.

[LWolf]

20. What do you think of Rahm?

Do you support his "unique strengths," or abhor his "negatives"?

WDRE? Who Did Rahm Endorse?

He had an influential presence in the Clinton and Obama administrations. Who did he already endorse for '16, and do you want his further influence?

It all depends on what kind of Democrat you are. If you're a neo-liberal Democrat, follow Rahm's lead.
That's what a "modern day liberal" is: a neo-liberal.

Or you can back the candidate who best represents the 99%. Hint...it's not the neo-liberal.

Which side of the party divide do you choose?

[JaneyVee]

21. Anyone but Republicans.

[randys1]

26. Should not have to be said on this message board, yet it has to be said and repeated

daily

[pennylane100]

23. If you are reaally undecided,

toss a coin and then examine how you feel about the one that won the toss. If you are still undecided, try best out of three.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

25. I recommend you rent a very fast car with no top.

And you'll need the cocaine. Tape recorder for special music. Acapulco shirts. Get the hell out of L.A. for at least 48 hours.

[zappaman]

34. I'd look out for the bats...

[Dr Hobbitstein]

35. Not to mention the fucking golf shoes.

Without them, we'll never get out of this place alive.

[HFRN]

27. how about a third way? Omalley? nt

[zappaman]

28. Still at it, eh?

[HFRN]

30. ?

[zappaman]

31. Uh huh

Carry on.

[HFRN]

32. ?

[zappaman]

33. Thanks for the reminder.

Got laundry to do...

[HFRN]

37. ?

[FSogol]

42. ^^^This^^^

[PoliticAverse]

29. Watch the upcoming primary debates. n/t

[Iggo]

36. Yep: Bernie Sanders.

[NorthCarolina]

38. Watch one of Bernies speeches. He touches on Trade in them,

and you are incorrect in stating he is against all Trade, or even all trade agreements. What he DOES say is that he is NOT on board with trade agreements as they are currently being drafted that favor corporate profits to the detriment of the middle class. He does support trade, and trade agreements that support the American worker. I toally agree with his stance on trade. i think if you take a second look your concerns in that area may be abated.

[R. P. McMurphy]

40. I recommend Bernie but Hillary would . . .

be an excellent President also.

You can't go wrong with either one (or with any Democratic candidate except Webb).

Just make sure to vote Democratic in the general election.

[MisterP]

43. her record on Honduras is obscene

it's an atmosphere of total terror: 20 opposition candidates, 40 journalists, a hundred transvestites, and 200 Aguán peasants have been murdered under the new regime
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/06/clinton-honduras-coup/

she also helped push that little venture in Libya that turned out so thunderingly well

[ibegurpard]

45. yes

Ignore most of the garbage you read on this board.