So Bernistas are already descending into conspiracy theory land. A little soon, don't you think?

[DanTex]

Particularly this conspiracy theory. Hillary has a 100% lifetime voting record with AFT, and AFT commissioned a survey (a real, scientific poll, not a tally of Facebook comments) and found that Hillary was the favorite by a 67-19 margin. And the poll also found that 79% of the respondents supported making a primary endorsement.

Obviously the work of evil Hillary apparatchiks. Because, facebook / some-teacher-I-know-likes-Sanders / Eli Broad / poll-trutherism / etc. They must have infiltrated Hart Research (which lists none other than Bernie Sanders as one of their clients -- imagine the outrage if Clinton was a client!) and got them to cook the polling numbers.

Yup, that's the only explanation that makes sense. It can't possibly be that AFT members support Hillary by roughly the same margin as the rest of the Democratic party. And there's no way that AFT should be endorsing a candidate with a perfect voting record who has supported their causes throughout her career. That's just wrong!

[hrmjustin]

1. Just sad!

[Agschmid]

45. He should edit the thread title... Don't you think?

[hrmjustin]

46. I would use the term bernistas. It might offend some.

[Agschmid]

76. It will.

[TheBlackAdder]

137. Whoops! I clicked on this thread and was transported back to the third grade! nt

[hrmjustin]

138. Ok.

[cyberswede]

2. What's a Bernista?

[Fred Sanders]

3. What is the "Bern"?

[Metric System]

4. The slightly less militant wing of the Sandernistas.

[daleanime]

10. As a Clash fan...

I kind of like the term.

[cascadiance]

27. Ah the voice of the great fellow Ankaran Joe Strummer...

Wish he were still alive today to continue giving us great tunes when we need them now.

[daleanime]

30. Amen.....

[Rosa Luxemburg]

39. yes

[kenfrequed]

20. Ooh...

Can we keep that one??!!

I like Sandernista a lot better than Bernista. If we are going to have a derogatory and dismissive nickname for those of us that support Bernie Sanders could you please just make it Sandernista?

[DanTex]

25. I think "Bernista" has a better ring to it. And "Bern" already has an "n" so you don't have to add

an extra one like in "Sandernista". For example, with Hillary, I would go with "Clintonista" instead of "Hillarnista".

[kenfrequed]

26. Feh...

It only sounds better if you want to dismiss us baristas rather than dismiss us as socialists. I prefer the latter dismissal if you don't mind.

[daleanime]

28. Definitely Sandernistas....

rolls off the tongue.

[Ed Suspicious]

59. "Bernista" sounds like some sort of accident prone coffee maker.

[Sheepshank]

6. it appears to be the sworn enemy of Clintonians

[lark]

68. Think the real target of Bernie's ire are the pigistas

aka Repugs.

[jeff47]

18. The People's Front of Sanders.

Not to be confused with the Sanders's People's Front.

Damn splitters.

[iandhr]

19. You get props for a great Monty Python reference

[progressoid]

37. Someone who serves coffee to Bernie?

http://www.unionleader.com/article/20150317/NEWS0605/150319198/0/img


&q=70&maxw=650&stamp=

[daleanime]

5. So every one in the AFT feels that their voice was heard?

[DanTex]

9. I would imagine that the AFT Trump supporters probably feel left out.

[daleanime]

12. Well, I'm sure he does.....

nice to see that you care. Have a lovely day.

[Sancho]

7. Many AFT (and NEA) members in my part of Florida support Hillary.

The poll is consistent with my observation here.

Paid pollsters have nothing to gain by manipulating the results if they want to be hired next time. They do their best to gather a representative sample and report the results.

The entire point of the standard error is to estimate the possible results if another sample was obtained from the same population. In this case, Hillary is so far ahead that AFT saw no point in delaying an endorsement.

I've been on similar union leadership groups. Unions want two things: politicians who support the interests of the members (wages, benefits, working conditions) and candidates that the members will support (GOTV, donations, non-union issues).
Hillary is on track for both with AFT.

Bernie is actually a fail on both criteria: he proposes some policies that are not good for union members (Robin Hood tax) and also supports some issues that members don't support (gun control). Even without the poll, Hillary would be a better choice than Bernie.

I'll vote for the Democratic candidate, but Hillary is the better choice for me.

[ibewlu606]

79. NT

"Many AFT (and NEA) members in my part of Florida support Hillary." Are these some of the thousands of "educators" who voted for Rick Scott and then got punked for their troubles?

[Sancho]

87. The turn out in the last election was dismal...

and yes, we check the voting records to see what % of union members vote. It's lower than we wish, but better than the average population.

Charlie Crist did not get much help from the Miami hispanics because they were mad that Obama didn't follow through on his executive order. Also, Scott and Crist ran such an ugly and expensive bunch of ads that many independent voters simply didn't vote.

[Trajan]

8. Slowly but surely ... I have been erasing the despicable haters from DU

Join the club, DanTex ... This exile is forever ...

Once a hater, ALWAYS a hater ....

Gone ...

[Metric System]

15. If I erased the Hillary haters on DU I'd be talking to myself. I kid. Kinda.

[peacebird]

41. I have also Trajan, haters don't advance the discussion

[SCantiGOP]

169. apparently they want their own sandbox to play in

Any discussion of what they hope is happening hurts their feelings.
I was banned from the Bernie group for pointing out a factual error in one post. No one could have told who I was supporting from what I said, but absolute philosophical purity is required if you want to play.

[peacebird]

170. Same reason i got banned from Hillary group, & had not even realized I was in the group

When I replied to a post there.

One strike/you're out

[SCantiGOP]

171. it sucks both ways

I think this divide is worse than it was in 2008. It's supposed to be a trademark of the the GOP to tear themselves to pieces during the primary so they can't recover in the general election.

Battle lines are being drawn, nobody's right if everybody's wrong.................

[peacebird]

172. Yes, I block only the truly rabid haters, who snipe & snear & provide nothing of value to discuss

There are those on all sides.

[SCantiGOP]

84. Oh no, you exiled him forever?

Might as well add me. And the other 20 recs so far. Pretty soon you will be talking amongst yourself; really add to the idea of informed discourse.

[Trajan]

113. Ok

[leftynyc]

95. You can't possibly be talking

about all the Hillary haters on this board who have simply taken over and behave like trolls. So put me on ignore as you obviously only want to talk with people who agree with you.

[Trajan]

115. I have a goal this election

Actually two:

1) Support and promote the election of Sen Bernie Sanders to the office of President of the United States during the Primary election phase ...

2) Support and promote the election of the Democratic Party nominee to the office of President of the United States during the General election phase ...

Along the way, I will use my best judgement to determine which members are over the top hateful towards their fellow Democrats, and therefore deserve to be shit canned and tossed in the dustbin of my ignore list ... You cannot unring the bell of hatreds ... Those who choose to insult their fellow Democrats NOW are those whom i would never consider as a friend .... Ever ...

Pretty easy ... nothing controversial here ... It's not like I am missing anything ...

The petty hatred has to go .... You willing to cross the line? .. That's where you will go ...

[leftynyc]

119. Then you must have dozens

of Bernie supporters on ignore. It's them that are the nastiest posters I've ever seen in my over 10 years on this board - they're the only ones being nasty (unless you're one of Bernie supporters that thinks being of the opinion he has no chance in the general is a personal attack). It's also only the Bernie supporters that threaten not to vote for the Democratic nominee. If you just go after the Hillary supporters, that's fine but it makes you nothing but a hypocrite.

[Trajan]

149. Guess what?

I rarely see them, because I don't participate in the negative threads against Hillary ... Other than a couple of minor complaints from me, I have no interest in trashing her ....

Bernie is my first choice ... If O'Malley or Warren somehow emerge strong, they would be my second choice ...

I love Hillary ... I love what her candidacy stands for from a historical perspective ... But I do think she us too far to the right, and that our nation needs more than half measures ...

I will pull the lever for Hillary if and when that day comes ....Why would I cut her down if she will probably be someone I vote for? ... That isn't me ...

[leftynyc]

167. Very glad to hear that

and I'm not talking about people like you. I have no beef with people who support other candidates - that's what democracy is all about. But every single thread about Hillary turns into a bitch-fest with the Bernie supporters as the worst culprits. I don't know of one Hillary voter that has said they wouldn't vote for Bernie but plenty that will stay home and let republicans win if Bernie isn't the candidate. I have no use for such people.

[artislife]

152. The nastiest?

Don't you remember the Kool Aid drinkers? Obamabots and other colorful nick names H supporters had for Obama supporters? We are worse than them? Or is it that it feels harder because it is the second time around someone comes out to challenge when it's her turn?


*I drank the Kool Aid, for full disclosure.

[bravenak]

162. I also drank the kool aid. Still an obamabot.

Voting for Bernie this time though. Hillary is ok. I'll take her if he loses.

[leftynyc]

168. I remember the primary battles of 2008

and they were every bit as ugly as this one but I also remember the trashing of Hillary every bit as much as trashing of Pres Obama. Those who were sure she would run third party, that she'd broker the convention. We Hillary voters tried to tell them Pres Obama was not the liberal lion they kept insisting he was but we were called awful names for NOT drinking the Kool Aid.

[Bobbie Jo]

157. This. nt

[truebrit71]

97. These threads are indeed very useful...

...to identify those that need to go on ignore..

[Trajan]

117. Indeed ...

I would not have considered this in the past, but, this cycle is quite different .. The ugly is out early and in force ...

This one especially .... I used to admire DT, until he/she started this shit ... Now I would never consider this poster to be a friend ...

[Sheepshank]

11. I'm pretty sure that the 19% percent that don't like Hillary have a choice once in the voting booth

I understand that they are the vocal minority, and vocal they are.

[SunSeeker]

13. K & R

[MannyGoldstein]

14. That's "Sandernistas", bucko

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=440551

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. You made some salient points but as exemplars to the world ...

You made some salient points but as exemplars to the world but we should refrain from calling our opponent's supporters names.

[QC]

21. Actually, Dan is the perfect exemplar of the Hillary faction

on this site.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. I rarely hurl epithets at my opponents except in self defense.

I want to be one of the repairers of the breach.

[kenfrequed]

23. And if you do...

I prefer Sandernista to Bernista. It just sounds cooler and you can get in a dig for us being too far to the left at the same time. Heh.

[whatchamacallit]

29. Fitting that Hillary supporters would identify with the Contras

[kenfrequed]

32. I don't think they actually do.

I haven't really seen a lot of Hillary supporters refer to us as sandernistas. I think it is more wishful thinking on my part.

[jeff47]

17. You can count on Dan to bring up the quality of any forum. (nt)

[virtualobserver]

24. Randi Weingarten...President of the AFT....joined the Board of Ready for Hillary- Jan 2014

She saw that Bernie was rising in the polls, so rather than wait until October as the AFT did in 2007, they took the poll now.

She was afraid that if she waited, Hillary might not be in the lead, or that the vote would be closer, and it would be awkward to endorse.
It is just that simple.

It is not a "conspiracy theory" that a person on the board of Ready for Hillary might be looking out for Hillary's interest.


Polls are just snapshots of a moment.

[DanTex]

48. I guarantee you there would be zero outrage and conspiracy theories if a union endorsed Bernie.

Particularly if the union was following the overwhelming majority opinion of its members. It's actually even simpler than your theory. Teachers, particularly AFT members, like Hillary, and have liked Hillary for a long time. No conspiracy necessary.

[Android3.14]

63. This comment says a lot about who you think most DU-ers support

And it ain't Ms. Clinton.

[DanTex]

66. Yes, most DUers support Bernie. I thought that was obvious.

[Android3.14]

99. My mistake

I thought you were implying the Sanders supporters were a minority group here. Please carry on.

[Recursion]

154. Is it? There are 200k+ DUers

Though I guess 50k of them are LibraryGirl, so...

[DanTex]

156. Yeah maybe not. lol

The majority of the most active DUers certainly seem to support Bernie though. But, yeah, there could be a silent majority.

[musicblind]

159. I support Hillary but have stopped posting.

I learned in 2008 that the anti-Hillary crowd here are as vicious as the Republicans. So now that it is primary season again, I'm just backing off. I'll be back to reading threads once the general election kicks in. You can't have a conversation with someone who hates you. It just isn't possible.

[arcane1]

69. A Hillary Super-PAC employee is going to endorse Hillary

There was no other possible outcome.

[DanTex]

78. A teacher's union whose membership overwhelmingly prefers Hillary, who ranks Hillary 100%, and

who has been supportive of Hillary her entire career is likely to endorse Hillary. That's true.

I was under the impression that support from labor unions and leaders was a good thing. Apparently not when it's Hillary.

[SCantiGOP]

158. DanTex

I've always been told not to engage in a battle of wits if it's obvious your opponent isn't armed.
Let them put all the Clinton supporters on Ignore. They can then sit in their room by themselves and chant "We're the kings and queens of the world!"
I think this cycle is much worse than 2008. I have stated several times that Sanders is my favorite Senator and I agree with just about everything he says. But if I question one inaccuracy in a post about Sanders it is alerted and I am told I'm being Ignored for Eternity!
I will work for Hillary Clinton because the prospect of a replay of the GWB Administration is too awful to consider.

[virtualobserver]

72. a board member of Ready for Hillary acting on Hillary's behalf....

is not a conspiracy theory.....hell, it isn't even a theory....it is a fact.

AFT did two polls and we see the results of the second.
Since Bernie has been rising in the polls, I sure that he had more support in the second poll, and that is why they endorsed immediately, before Bernie caught her.

In 2007, they also endorsed Hillary, but they did not do it until October.

It is the timing of the endorsement that is in question.
She did this on Hillary's behalf.

I can live with it, just don't pretend that the timing wasn't designed to help Hillary.

[DanTex]

83. And like I said, if a union whose membership overwhelmingly supported Bernie, which had built up a

relationship of trust with Bernie for most of his career, and which ranked Bernie 100% on the issues decided to endorse Bernie, nobody would be crying foul. Instead, people would say, yes, that makes a lot of sense.

And, yeah, obviously the endorsement was designed to help Hillary. That's the whole point of an endorsement: to help the candidate who you think best represents your interests. And it was also designed to help AFT's interests.

[virtualobserver]

92. But the timing only makes sense because Bernie was rising in the polls

The timing shows that Randi is part of the Clinton political machine, even if we didn't know of her connection to Ready for Hillary.

It is just one more indicator of the fear at Team Hillary over the rise of Bernie Sanders.

[DanTex]

96. Or maybe the timing made just made political sense.

For example, to grab the spotlight with an early endorsement. Who knows. Who cares. At the end of the day, AFT did exactly what its members wanted.

As to Hillary being worried about Bernie, you may be right. Not worried about losing the primary, but worried about being weakened by him enough to lose the GE.

[virtualobserver]

114. If she is worried about being weakened by a candidate who never attacks her....

then it is her message and her presentation that is weak.

You are right, though.....it does make political sense for an organization whose President is a Ready for Hillary board member to endorse Hillary.

[arcane1]

116. I believe "Priorities USA Action" is the PAC she's employed by, but you're otherwise spot-on

If she's also employed by "Ready for Hillary" I'll edit my post

[virtualobserver]

124. you are right, she only donated to RFH, thanks for the correction

[DanTex]

122. It also makes sense for a teacher's union president to be on the board of a PAC

for a candidate that has a perfect voting record for the union, and who has been on the side of teachers throughout her career.

[Smarmie Doofus]

51. Correct. n/t

[arcane1]

70. Thank you.

Too many on here want to ignore the role of big, untraceable money on this election.

[ruffburr]

31. I have avoided-

Getting into the Hillary vs Bernie bash fest going on on DU but I feel compelled to put my 2cents into the discussion, As I see it Hillary is inarguably a third way democrat and basically only offers more of the same, Governance by and for the corporate masters as do all the Republicans, If the planet is to survive we cannot have more of the same, If the people are going to prosper we cannot have more of the same, To borrow a line from Bob "The Times They Are A Changing" so in the end we as a society need change for the better not the same stale corporate governance, It's your vote use it wisely, Repeating the same mistakes over and over again is insanity, We cannot afford any more mistakes.

[glinda]

38. That s exactly how I feel.

[heaven05]

62. +1000

[uwep]

86. Banned from Sanders post for saying less

muck dredging for any of the Democratic candidates is offensive. I support Hillary and have done my best to shine a good light on Sanders, but I have a feeling that Sanders supporters may be repugs. The slime that is being used to smear Hillary has been manufactured by the repugs and now some Sanders supporters are taking up the messages. I do not despise Sanders, I just think that he is not the candidate that the Democrats needs right now. He needs to stay in the Senate.

[wendylaroux]

94. Thank you!

[Cosmocat]

160. Yes, but ...

Hillary is not as bad as all of that, but sure, Bernie is a full on liberal and she is less than that.

The only thing I will note is this ...

Even if Bernie beats the stupid and gets elected, he is going to be dealing with the same POS congress - A republican party that will be, literally 100 percent in opposition, something that we have not seen in our history really until now.

And, a democratic party that is about a 1/3 reliable liberals, 1/3 modestly progressive types that could break either way, and 1/3 you know you won't get them on anything that will be a problem back home ...

Or in another words, not close to any kind of congress that will pass any meaningful legislation.

i guess what I am saying is Hill isn't the problem, congress is.

Put Hill in there with a solidly progressive congress and she will pen what they put in front of her.

Put ANYONE in there with what will be there, and you will have the last four years ...

Bernie isn't changing anything ... In any appreciable way, at least.

[Capt. Obvious]

60. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

On Mon Jul 13, 2015, 10:57 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

*yawn*
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=441734

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Just gross. Inappropriate and adds absolutely nothing.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Jul 13, 2015, 11:04 AM, and the Jury voted 4-3 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: It's a troll
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I completely agree with the alerter. Inappropriate and adds nothing to the conversation. Easy hide.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Let's be a little more civil.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It might be inappropriate but the whole OP is inappropriate as well as many of the other responses down thread i can't single out and hide this one when worse in this thread not only get a pass but are cheered on
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Fetch me my fainting couch!

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Number23]

151. Awwww... what a shame.

Edit: I wasn't the alerter by the way. Just appreciating the irony.

[zappaman]

34. I love when trolls post this shit.

And it gets Recs!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251440414

[msanthrope]

57. I Miss Hannah bell on threads like those. nt

[zappaman]

77. Oh, he drops by now and again.

Doesn't stay long though....

[mythology]

35. As others have said, there's no reason

To come up with derogatory nicknames for supporters of a Democratic candidate.

They are deserving of respect if for no other reason than after the primary odds are that either Clinton or Sanders will be the nominee and will need the support for the eventual nominee.

[ibegurpard]

36. if AFT members choose to take issue with their union's endorsement

Then who the hell are you to say anything about it?

[1StrongBlackMan]

49. And you know the fb posters to be AFT member, how? ...

As one DUER noted ... a quick look at some of their profiles neglect to mention that they are teachers, and have other occupations list.

[ibegurpard]

54. I do not

Nor do I know that it's confined to Facebook and neither does OP.

[1StrongBlackMan]

55. So you are just believing them?

[ibegurpard]

61. Not necessarily

But i dont discount it either. The connections of this union president with the corporate education reformers and charter school pushers does not line up with the interests of teachers unions or public education. So its completely plausible to me that union members would be upset with this endorsement. Not to mention the history of arrogant snotty OPs from this poster.

[1StrongBlackMan]

73. Nah ...

it is more likely those opposing the endorsement are opposing it because the do not support HRC ... period. (And that is not so unusual.)

If the union president's connections with corporate education reformers and charter school pushers was a problem with the membership ... How did she become their president?

No ... what I think is happening is a few (maybe, several) union members (supportive of Bernie) didn't like the endorsement (because it endorsed HRC) and they took to social media to complain.

I suspect, with the relatively recent - "I am the political center of everything, regardless of where the larger organization is" sentiment that is cropping up, we will be seeing more and more of this.

[ibegurpard]

75. we shall see

[1StrongBlackMan]

82. Yes, it should be interesting to watch ...

as the endorsements roll in, will there be a correlation between whom one supports and complaining that the organization doesn't speak for them and demanding that the organizations withdraw the endorsement?

I suspect there will be.

[randys1]

110. I am a little confused about what the CT is, but one thing for sure is if anyone

is supporting charter schools, I wanna know about it.

Charter schools exist to destroy teachers unions and education and the democratic party

[BlueMTexpat]

40. I am a Hillary supporter and,

from my own experience of teaching, I certainly do not believe there is a conspiracy. If anything, this survey might understate Hillary's support among ALL teachers. AFT is more left-leaning than the National Education Association.

I don't appreciate threads that portray Hillary in negative terms on a Dem website - and this is certainly not one of those. But I also really would appreciate it if those of us who support her didn't use terms like "Bernistas" that might seem derogatory towards those DU colleagues who support Bernie.

Are some posts OTT? Yes, IMO. But, just as I try to call them out when I see them (most I just ignore), I must also say something about a term that Bernie's supporters might find offensive.

We have two wonderful DEM candidates at the top. IMO, their candidacies both complement and strengthen one another. I am a Hillary supporter and will remain so throughout the 2016 primary season. But if Dem voters actually choose otherwise, I will fully support that choice.

I appreciate the point that you are making, but the term detracts from it. JMO.

[artislife]

47. I like you nt

[lovemydog]

53. Thank you.

It's nice finding another ally. As someone who is leaning toward Sanders or O'Malley, I appreciate what you say. I'm not here to denigrate Hillary, Martin or Bernie. I'll gladly vote for and strongly support any of them in the general election. I believe Hillary has worked with AFT for a long time and has strong allies there. I also believe most teachers will inform themselves and vote for their choice of candidate.

[BlueMTexpat]

166. I truly believe that most DUers

are like us no matter whom we support now, thank heavens!

And yes, we have some great Dem candidates among the top three especially. Best of luck to you and your choice of candidate! Martin O'Malley was my governor and I like him a lot too. [My US residence is in MD although I am MT-born and currently live outside the US.]

Bernie is wonderful, but my support is fully behind Hillary because she is the only candidate who has been tested on both the national (First Lady & NY Senator) and international (Secretary of State) stages. While global issues and foreign policy may not register as among the top concerns for most US citizens, they are very important to me.

[lovemydog]

173. I think so too.

Yes, global issues and foreign policy are significant, as we live in a more interconnected world than ever before. That's partly why I haven't yet chosen who I'll vote for in the primaries. I want to hear each candidate out. I'm delighted you liked Martin O'Malley as governor of Maryland. I like what I've seen of him.

It's important to continue the Obama Administration's foreign policy of engaging other nations worldwide and working through diplomacy rather than isolationism or brutality. That's a major reason I like all three of these democratic candidates. They are all preferable to any of the republicans. I'd like to see more prosperity at home (particularly vis a vis a real increase in middle class wages) and a continuation of diplomacy and peaceful engagement abroad.

Thanks for your kind words. All the best to you too.

[BooScout]

42. What is also sad....

Is that disgruntled Bernie supporters went and started an on line petition to try and repeal the endorsement.....using the logic that if they could get enough non-teacher Bernie supporters to sign it, they actually stood a chance of getting the endorsement repealed. I guess they are looking to Bernie for guidance, since he is running as a non-Democrat in the Democratic primaries.

[Buns_of_Fire]

43. Well, you certainly convinced me, you silver-tongued devil, you.

By the way, Eli Broad is one of the sleaziest pieces of poo that exists outside the fifth circle of hell. I used to work at one of his companies, and believe me, even *I* have more class.

[Agschmid]

44. The title of this thread is not appropriate.

I would edit it to show respect to people who might not share the same view.

[winter is coming]

50. Bernista?

Buh-bye.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Your title is what makes this site suck

as to the conspiracy...I have seen the outrage. It might be very local, but to be honest I did not expect an endorsement for anybody this early. Given Weingarden is a member of the PAC it lends itself to it.

[silenttigersong]

58. I have a question

How can it be a fair vote if Vice President Biden has not declared ?

[HooptieWagon]

64. I totally understand how the teachers feel.

In 2008, DWS and other Florida Clinton minions pushed forward the Fl primary, ahead of the previously agreed-upon window, in order to game the election for Clinton. Then when it blew up in their faces, she was all over TV, spewing lies from her smirking face. It was totally disgusting, and I swore I would never ever cast a vote for Hillary or DWS under any circumstances.
This situation with the AFT is exactly the same bullshit. No doubt a whole lot of teachers will make the same vow I did in 2008.

[arcane1]

65. "Bernistas"?

So mature

[madfloridian]

67. Here is this "Bernista's" post of facts, not theory. You may call me anything you wish.

If you feel better when calling names, go for it. This is only one of the reasons that teachers are upset, because they are the victims of plans such as TURN. They can't do a damn thing about it as their union (unions) are controlled by education reformers.

I have much more about this topic, so be thinking up some other names for me. I think our country is 100% ready for change...teachers more than anyone else.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251440203

Take time to read it before you call names.

Signed

Bernista madfloridian

[Ichingcarpenter]

88. BA in early education MA in special ed k through 12 here

they should have put it to a vote which they didn't not a poll none of my colleagues got polled and yes we are upset on this undemocratic process. It was too early and did not include the democratic playing field.

Hillary plus Bill......... Hill.billy.....oh I'm so clever and a silver tongue devil............ we need to stop the silly name calling

it makes Hillary supporters look stupid and immature.

[Maedhros]

89. Oh, madfloridian...

[madfloridian]

90. ....

Tell me about it. Name calling works so much better.

[SoapBox]

71. Oh ya...

ALL of us are supposed to march along blindly behind (roped off) HRC.

Do not support anyone else...march Zombies, march.

And why? Because her supporters said we are to do that...march Zombies, march.

NOT!

That is what is great about America, we all get to vote. And no one can order us to vote for anyone we don't want to...period.

And the bashing? I don't need to bash...her record and detailed history speak for itself...as does Bernie's record and history.

I choose Bernie.

[madfloridian]

74. Oh, in the post I linked above I forgot the link Teacher Union Reform Network, Broad's baby.

http://www.turnweb.org/

And check out the members and associated groups.

Oh, and think of more names. It inspires me.

[Myrina]

80. I love this time of year ... so easy to figure out who to put on Ignore ...

Thanks and buh bye ...

[HassleCat]

81. Please call us Sandanistas

I don't know if it's less insulting, but it's more fun. Thanks. Or maybe Sandernistas.

[Ino]

161. Bernistas...

Sandanistas... all fun.

But not as much fun as Hillarities!

[Scootaloo]

85. Or alternately, the union leadership stepped over the membership.

It's not that uncommon with unions, unfortunately. SEUI did it a few times while I was a member, I've seen AFL-CIO do it, and the Teamsters are kinda famous for the leadership having policy disconnect from its members. That AFT might have the same stumble now and then shouldn't be a surprise, and certainly isn't your conspiracy theory.

The question is whether the endorsement was arrived at fairly, with strong union participation. Not whether "strings were pulled for Hillary." You can argue that 1,150 people is sufficient for a poll with 4.1% MOE tolerance, but that ignores the problem - Unions are democratic institutions, and making democratic policy decisions for 1,600,000 people based on the opinions of 720 of them in a poll that only 1,150 knew was happening is not terribly democratic.

it's not the results that are the problem. it's how the union leadership arrived at that result. The problem would be the same with any union-wide policy decided by 0.07% of the membership.

[DanTex]

91. As you noted, the sample size in the poll was plenty big enough.

There is simply no plausible argument that the union leadership didn't do exactly what the overwhelming majority of its members wanted.

If AFT''s bylaws explicitly say that a full vote of all members is required before any endorsement, then you would have a point. But since that's not the case, and the survey shows without the slightest doubt that the membership was heavily in favor of this decision.

Moreover, the AFT leadership is elected by the members. They aren't appointed by God. Being a democratic institution doesn't mean having an all-member referendum on every issue. What happened here is that the people who were elected by the membership made a decision that was supported by the overwhelming majority of the membership. There's nothing undemocratic about that.

[madfloridian]

93. Unions, 2 especially, are being used to get school reform done.

Read the links:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251440203

http://www.turnweb.org/

Be thinking up more names.

[DanTex]

98. OK. The relevance about this to the theory that the endorsement was cooked is what exactly?

Unless I'm mistaken, Randi Weingarten has won re-election from AFT membership two or three times. Apparently the teachers don't share your concerns about her.

[madfloridian]

101. They are finally catching on. They are catching on to ed reform tactics also.

Teachers are passive by nature, they have to be to keep their jobs.

But Obama's admin has pushed the reforms so hard and so fast, reforms Bush couldn't get through because Democrats fought him.....that parents, teachers, and students are hurting.

Oh, they are catching on fast.

They are making connections now to how it all got started...the "reforms" that is.

There is harm in making such an early endorsement. The union loses its leverage over the candidates. They started polling in February, way too early.

I am not concerned this will hurt Bernie among teachers, in fact I think it will help him.

[DanTex]

103. OK. I don't know much about school reform.

But, from what I read, it seems like the reform crowd (e.g. Cambpell Brown) still dislikes the unions and Randi Weingarten every bit as much as they always have. Maybe I'm wrong, but she always seems to get singled out by the right as the big impediment to their free market utopia plans for schools.

[madfloridian]

107. There's no love lost between Campbell and Randi, I gather.

Not sure exactly why.

If Randi had not been an instructor at the Broad Institute then I would perhaps consider her less blameless. But she knew his tactics. Those superintendents trained by Broad and sent out into the world are ruthless and punitive toward teachers and parents and schools.

Campbell has huge money behind her also.

[Scootaloo]

102. For a poll, yes.

Can you imagine if every democratic institution made policy based on polls?

Like I said, it's a system problem, not a results problem.

[DanTex]

104. Very few democratic institutions make policy based on referendum.

Most of them are representative democracies. That's what the AFT is. On some issues, I imagine they do referendums, but evidently not for endorsements. Instead they have another process in place which includes a membership poll. As far as I can tell, the process they used this time is basically the same as it has been for a while. So it appears that the AFT membership is satisfied with the process. The only reason I can see for the outrage and conspiratorial speculation is that the outcome wasn't what some people wanted.

[Scootaloo]

108. Well, you can count me out of your conclusion

The only reason I can see for the outrage and conspiratorial speculation is that the outcome wasn't what some people wanted.

One, I'm not outraged. Two, i'm not seeing conspiracy. And three, the results don't matter to me much. There's a billion fucking organizations who will be launching endorsements between now and the convention, some will go Clinton, some will go sanders and, if 2008 is any indication, at least a few will go from Clinton to Sanders. In the end, teachers vote like anyone else -according to what they want, not according to endorsements.

As for conspiracy... I dunno man, if nothing else, doesn't having the union president on one of hte candidate's super PAC boards seem like a conflict of interest? I mean I know nothing about Randi Weingarten beyond hte positions she has, so I don't want to be like yes, some people are doing and accuse her of nefariousness. But, as Clinton supporters like to say, "it's bad optics," nevertheless.



maybe chill your own wild-eye torch-and-pitchfork hyperbolic insult-fest, before trying to accuse others of it.

[DanTex]

111. OK, but there's a currently a 60-rec OP calling the endorsement "apparently-cooked".

And blaming it on "Clinton Inc.'s heavy-handed tactics". I believe that "outrage and conspiratorial speculation" is an accurate assessment of that OP and many of the responses.

Randi being on Hillary's SuperPAC is not a conflict of interest, but an alignment of interests. She thinks that Hillary would be a good president, and that Hillary would support policies beneficial to teachers and to AFT. She's a politically active figure, it's part of her job. It's no more of a conflict than the fact that Randi is a registered Democrat, and AFT generally supports Democrats. That's because Democrats are better for teachers than Republicans.

Like you said, there are going to be endorsements to all candidates. If a union headed by someone who has known and supported Bernie Sanders for a long time decides to endorse him with the support of a huge majority of its members, I predict no outrage and conspiracy theories at all. Instead, people will just think, yeah, well naturally that union supported Bernie, not only was their membership heavily in favor, but the leadership is familiar with Bernie and knows that he is the best guy to fight for their interests.

[Scootaloo]

118. And you've recced all the threads accusing Sanders of sounding just like the NRA

Even started a few in similar vein. Amid threads accusing Sanders of "not caring" about immigrants or people of color. Even to the point of trying to hold him as guilty for Virginia Slavery. Amid of course, all the insistence that he's "too extreme,' "too old," and - of course - "too Jewish." Oh, and his hair, and his accent, and the demographics of Vermont, and all that shit.

So, when you see one thread getting sniffy over the AFT vote, my suggestion would be to acknowledge that you've endorsed and engaged in worse against Sanders, and get over it.

[arcane1]

120. .

[DanTex]

121. That's because he did sound just like the NRA when defending his vote on gun industry immunity.

Which, by the way, was the NRA's top legislative priority at the time. Sorry, but Sanders was wrong on that issue, and I don't think that progressives should be making excuses for the gun lobby simply because they don't want to believe that Sanders has any faults. I stand by that.

I also stand by the fact that Sanders isn't currently reaching minority voters, something that is not only evidenced by polls, but something that his campaign has acknowledged. Also that he is prioritizing economic issues over social issues, and this is a legitimate complaint by people who think social issues are important. I never said anything about him not caring about immigrants, or being too old or too Jewish, or being racist or any of that. In fact, nobody has called him racist on DU, that whole thing is a straw argument designed to deflect from criticism that he doesn't place enough emphasis on social issues.

And I stand my the opinion that he would not fare well against the GOP. Part of this is because he is too far left for the general public, being for example a self-described socialist. Part of it is that he won't be able to compete financially. And, yes, while his ideas are appealing to white liberals like you find in Vermont, the country's demographics are not like that at all.

All that is legitimate, even though you might disagree. OTOH, claiming that the AFT endorsement was "cooked" is conspiratorial stupidity.

[Scootaloo]

123. No, he didn't sound anything like the NRA.

And yes, go ahead and defend all your bullshit about Sanders. As i said, you have engaged in worse, stupider thigns agaisnt Sanders, and his supporters.

Build a bridge, dude.

[DanTex]

125. Yes, he did. For example, the inane "baseball bat" analogy. He also tried to blame the gun violence

problem on gangs, another NRA talking point (gangs account for only about 15% of homicides). He also grossly mischaracterized the law he voted for, insinuating that it was just about frivolous lawsuits. He suggested that gun control advocates were somehow trying to demonize the rural hunting lifestyle. At one point he even spoke a variation of "guns don't kill people". Bernie is great on almost every issue, but not guns.

As for the rest, I've explained in my last post the arguments I've made about Bernie's candidacy. They are all legitimate.

[Scootaloo]

126. Do you need me to build one for you?

It'll cost you twelve bucks. Gift your purchase to "Twilight Sporkle" (yes. I know) and I'll have your bridge constructed by the end of the day.

[DanTex]

129. How about you demonstrate by example. Show me the love you have for Hillary and her supporters.

[Scootaloo]

130. I don't have any. I also don't start threads shitbagging them, though.

[DanTex]

131. Oh, I see. What you're really looking for is a one-way bridge.

Bashing Hillary can continue, but responding to that Hillary bashing is way out of bounds. And, of course, pointing out any flaws with Bernie is beyond the pale.

[Scootaloo]

133. You can't get your boxers in a bunch that people do the exact same thing you do.

It's hypocritical.

[DanTex]

135. Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you.

What's missing in this discussion, of course, is substance. That's where I'm right and you're wrong. You see, Bernie did actually parrot the NRA when defending his vote for that immunity bill. On the other hand, the AFT endorsement was not in fact "cooked" by "Hillary Inc."

[AgingAmerican]

100. Now going the 'conspiracy' route?

And you say you believe that Bernie is the better candidate? lol

[DanTex]

106. No, I think Hillary is the better candidate.

And, no, I'm not going the "conspiracy" route. I'm pointing out that the conspiracy theories around the AFT endorsement are silly.

[AgingAmerican]

109. That's not what you said last week

You said, 'all things being equal you prefer Sanders': http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251433865#post131

[DanTex]

112. All things being equal I prefer Sanders. But all things are not equal. So I prefer Hillary.

[Scootaloo]

134. Isn't the crux of your argument a belief that Sanders "can't win the general"?

[DanTex]

136. Yes.

[Scootaloo]

139. Do you believe Democrats will not vote for him?

[ibegurpard]

141. corporate conservadems will not vote for Bernie

Bank on it.

[DanTex]

142. I think he'll lose too many independents/moderates.

I think being a self-described socialist is a big vulnerability in the US. Yes, even still today. I also think that he'd get massively outspent, and he won't have enough firepower to combat the GOP attack ads. I get that he's standing on principle by avoiding all PACs, but the problem is, that puts him at a huge disadvantage.

I would feel a lot better about his GE chances if there were other people as far left as Bernie elected to the senate. But there aren't any. Basically, trying to elect a Bernie in any state other than Vermont is something that has not happened, at least not in the last few decades. For me, the danger of a GOP president is too great to take this kind of risk.

[Scootaloo]

143. "Because socialism" is not a very well-thought answer.

At this point in American politics, the democrats can already write off voters who would be scared off by the word "socialism." That's why the Republicans have been throwing at us since the nineteen-fucking-seventies.

As for independents... Sanders has been an independent for over forty years. His core issues in the campaign center around the sort of things that push people away from the parties to become independent. I can't say sanders has independents in the bag... but if any candidate from either party has a strong chance among them, he's the guy.

Certainly more than Clinton, who is an iconic example of "Washington insider" and who has the unfortunate baggage of running a pure money campaign. There's also that common "dynasty" bugbear. Independents aren't real big fans of nepotism in general, and even if you don't agree with them, I'm sure you realize there are people who would be concerned with having Bill and Hillary back in the white house for another four to eight years.

Now we come to moderates. I will for the sake of argument presume you mean moderate democrats. do you mean yourself? Wil lyou sit 2016 out, or even vote republican, if Sanders is the nominee? I don't think you would, personally (I hope you wouldn't.) But htne are you making the argument that while you would vote for sanders, the group you identify with politically wouldn't? It's not a very convincing argument to make, if that's the case.

And if you're comfortable vouching that moderate dems will sit out the election if sanders is the nominee (and thus hand the presidency to Walker) then you have to also realize the antipathy the left has towards Clinton. Which creates roughly the same problem for her.

Now, I don't think that "moderate dems" have the same level of antipathy towards Sanders that the left does towards Clinton. After all, while the left trends towards idealism, moderates are more "pragmatic" right?

And finally, let's consider the happy reality that the republicans have no serious challengers. I cannot picture a Democrat losing the presidency in 2016. not against anyone from that clown car. I think Walker is probably their best shot, and all it takes is a few news pieces on Wisconsin and his ass is grass. That';s the reality we're going into here. There will not be much of a horse race, no matter who we nominate.

So, we might as well get the most bang for our buck. And that comes from Sanders.

[DanTex]

145. It's accurate though.

Yes, the Republicans try the socialism thing every time, but this time is different because Sanders is a self-described socialist. Previous Dems have been able to say, no, I'm not a socialist, this is dumb. Sanders won't. There was a recent poll where only 48% of respondents said they would "consider" voting for a socialist. I don't feel good at all going into an election where only 48% of the people would even consider voting for the Democratic candidate.

Yes, Bernie is an independent, but he is not representative of independents, who are mostly centrist, sometimes vote for Dems and other times for Reps. Just the kind of people who might consider Bernie extreme or radical and go for the "safe" or "mainstream" choice. There's a reason that candidates on both sides pivot to the center after primaries are done. It's because if your opponent can paint you as out of the mainstream, you have a problem. This is why Hillary, being less liberal that Bernie, already having been FLOTUS and SoS, is in a much stronger position with centrists than Bernie. Plus she would have much more money than Bernie, and money is important (that's why politicians spend so much time raising it).

Now we come to moderates. I will for the sake of argument presume you mean moderate democrats. do you mean yourself? Wil lyou sit 2016 out, or even vote republican, if Sanders is the nominee? I don't think you would, personally (I hope you wouldn't.) But htne are you making the argument that while you would vote for sanders, the group you identify with politically wouldn't? It's not a very convincing argument to make, if that's the case.

No, I mean moderate independents. Centrists. I personally am a liberal democrat, and I will vote for whoever the Dem nominee is. I think most moderate Dems would vote for Sanders, but he might lose a few of them, more than Hillary would. On the other hand, you're right that Hillary would lose more liberals, although she consistently polls very well with liberal Democrats (as does Obama).

And finally, let's consider the happy reality that the republicans have no serious challengers. I cannot picture a Democrat losing the presidency in 2016. not against anyone from that clown car. I think Walker is probably their best shot, and all it takes is a few news pieces on Wisconsin and his ass is grass. That';s the reality we're going into here. There will not be much of a horse race, no matter who we nominate.

I wish I shared your confidence on this, but I don't. It's gonna be close and the GOP will spend billions. Bush is a serious threat -- he can paint himself as moderate. Walker, clown that he is, won twice in Wisconsin, which is a relatively liberal state. Remember, we live in a country that (almost) voted for W twice. Where half the people think that creationism should be taught in schools. Where people want to keep the government away from their medicare. I saw a poll a while back where something like 20% of Americans think the are in the top 1%. There are no guarantees.

Finally, even though I agree with Sanders on the issues more than Hillary, the reality is that either of them is going to be severely limited by congress in what they can actually accomplish. Very little of the stuff Sanders is proposing is going to make it through. The limiting factor in either case is going to be how much either one can maneuver congress to the left. The important thing is putting a Dem in the WH, because a GOP presidency would be a disaster.

[Scootaloo]

147. No, it's really not

You're hinging your argument on a fear that republicans might successfully red-bait a sub-demographic of independents. While somehow believing Clinton will do better with the same demographic under the same circumstances.

It's a very strange argument that only makes sense if you're working backwards from a predetermined conclusion, Dantex.

[DanTex]

148. I think the "very strange argument" is the one that claims that a self-proclaimed socialist

can win a national campaign in a country where only 48% of the people will even consider voting for a socialist. How does that add up?

I've seen zero evidence that anyone as far left as Bernie can win a state-wide election in any state outside of New England, the West Coast, and Hawaii. And even winning all those will be a challenge. You don't see many self-described socialists in the senate.

Yeah, maybe Sanders can bring about an unprecedented leftward shift in the electorate. Possible, but not likely. Especially being enormously outspent.

I think this is where we agree to disagree. If I had your confidence that Bernie was just as viable in the GE as Hillary, I would be supporting him. But I sure don't.

[RichVRichV]

153. Where will all these independent/moderates be in the primaries?

Explain to me how Bernie is going to get past Hillary in the primary and get eaten up in the general?


Are all these independent/moderates that you speak of who won't vote for Bernie going to just not bother in the primary? Or are they busy voting over on the Republican side? And if they're on the Republican side in the primaries, how is Hillary going to get them? Where is this mythical swarm of people going to come from in the generals that only hurts Bernie?


Maybe you think Hillary is going to throw kid gloves at Bernie and not attack him if he gets close to her in the polls? Do you believe she is going to just roll over and hand the nomination to him? I thought she was a fighter. She's sure never backed down in any of her other elections (primary or generals). Do you think she'll back off of angles the Republicans won't if she's going to lose because she's nice?


Or maybe you think the Republicans and their advocates are just smarter than Hillary and her advocates at attacking?


So where is this magical path that Bernie becomes the Democratic nomination and then gets eaten up and spit out by the Republicans. Why do you have so little faith in your candidate that you think the Republicans can beat him where she couldn't?


If Bernie gets by Hillary then he's earned the nomination and will be very ready for anything the Republicans can throw at him. Hillary is simply smarter and better at playing the game than the Republicans are. If Bernie makes it by her he's proven he belongs there.

[DanTex]

155. They will not be voting in the primary because they are not Democrats.

Actually, I don't think Bernie is going to get past Hillary in the primary. But if he does, it will be the liberal base that does it, not independent moderates. The primary electorate is very different than the GE electorate.

[AgingAmerican]

164. He would mop the floor with independents

Independents don't like the status quo. That's why they left their particular party. Hillary represents the status quo.

[AgingAmerican]

163. "No, I think Hillary is the better candidate" "I prefer Sanders"

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Cleita]

105. Are Hillarybots enemies of the Bernistas?

Enquiring minds want to know.

[Renew Deal]

127. Some people can't accept that a reasonable liberal can support Hillary.

And it's absurd. They think that if Bernie just speaks to them they will be converted. That's not real.

[DanTex]

128. This is the answer. They think it's simply impossible for anyone to support her unless there's

some kind of corruption going on, or unless they've never heard of Bernie before.

[madfloridian]

132. Read my link again. The connections are real.

[ibegurpard]

140. They know the links are real

They are coming from the perspective of politics as marketing and it angers them that it doesn't work the way it used to.

[uponit7771]

150. Sanders said he's not a liberal... I'm not surprised liberals wouldn't be attracted to him

... Or would be attracted to someone more liberal

[mmonk]

144. I really don't care if others want to screw themselves,

it's something I'm not capable of. The only problem is when we all keep going down as a result.

[Vinca]

146. This feels like deja vu all over again.

I remember DU in 2008. Some of the posts I'm reading could have been posted then. Change "Obama" to "Bernie" and that's pretty much it. Same baloney. I wondered then if Hillary got the nomination how they would beg the people supporting Obama (who had been trashed on a regular basis) to vote for her. Obviously, we never found out since the absolutely horrible candidate we were supporting won the nomination. It's a shame we always end up like 5th graders on a playground at recess. "Bernistas." Ha!

[AgingAmerican]

165. Says the daily perveyor of anti-Sanders conspiracy theories

nt