Bernie is not anti-immigrant. Fuck Vox, HuffPo, ThinkProgress, and mainstream liberal news outlets..

[gobears10]

These articles pissed me off:
1.) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-immigration_55ba6090e4b0b8499b18a18a?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000013§ion=politics

2.) http://thinkprogress.org/election/2015/07/30/3686282/bernie-sanders-immigration/

3.) http://www.vox.com/2015/7/29/9048401/bernie-sanders-open-borders

The thinkprogress piece was entitled "Why Immigration Is The Hole In Bernie Sanders’ Progressive Agenda." What a bs smear piece. The Vox article is called, "Bernie Sanders's fear of immigrant labor is ugly — and wrongheaded"

Fuck HuffPo, fuck Vox, fuck ThinkProgress, fuck these mainstream "liberal" publications for posting pro-Hillary propaganda and anti-Bernie hit pieces. Vox was fucking behind the whole "Bernie doesn't care about minorities, he views racism as a symptom of economic inequality" meme. While promoting Hillary as someone who is very socially progressive and should be praised on race and immigration. What a joke.

He doesn't actually have any juicy scandals in his past, nor is he inconsistent or hypocritical in his rhetoric and voting history, so the only way to go at him is to flagrantly misinterpret his behavior, words, and nuanced positions. Soundbite journalism and all. Here is the truth:

1.) Bernie Sanders is pro-immigration. He supports a pathway to citizenship for current undocumented workers in the U.S. He is also the son of an immigrant from Poland (his dad's family got killed in the Holocaust), and Bernie fully supports legal, regulated immigration. Bernie said today at a USHCC Q&A session that legal immigration is what makes America great, and that immigrants built our country. Bernie said one of the virtues of America is that we have people coming from all over the world with their own particular skills and ideas, something that makes the U.S. a unique country, something we should be very proud of. He absolutely does not think legal immigration should be restricted, and wants to continue welcoming immigrants. Bernie agrees that immigrants make America more American. Bernie Sanders, also unlike Hillary, wanted to let the Central American refugee children of last year stay in the U.S. (Hillary wanted to kick them out). Hillary was also opposed to giving undocumented immigrants driver's licenses in 2008, and favored a path to legal status over citizenship in 2008.

2.) Bernie is against completely open borders, a completely porous border, which no candidate for POTUS is in favor of, and would be a stupid idea to have for countries with a welfare state. What Bernie's against is the notion of deregulating the borders, allowing people to come in without any avenue to actual citizenship, and then watching as their presence simultaneously depresses wages and job markets for citizens and also harms the guest workers by keeping them as a perpetual slave laboring underclass. It harms them, it harms us, and the only people who profit from it in the long run are the de facto servant owners. That is why Bernie is critical of the H-1B visa program, in which high-skilled guest workers aren't guaranteed a path to a Green Card or to citizenship if the employer doesn't choose to sponsor them in the end. But Bernie absolutely supports people who want to immigrate to the U.S. through proper legal channels.

The people criticizing Bernie Sanders, or implying that he's somehow anti-immigrant, are complete hacks. Rep. Luis Gutierrez is a complete Hillary goon who said "I don't know if he likes immigrants," a complete smear of Bernie's record. Bernie isn't critical of immigration, nor did he say that overall, legal immigration is bad for the economy, depresses wages, or causes unemployment. He's just specifically critical of certain guest worker programs, not immigration overall. Immigration reform advocates who are "disappointed" by his statements are idiots. This isn't an area on which Bernie's "not progressive," or a blip on his otherwise liberal record. The mainstream media will do everything it can to marginalize Bernie, and progressives need to fight back.

[Xipe Totec]

1. K&R nt

[BainsBane]

2. Then he misspoke in that interview

because I got the same impression. Perhaps he needs some prep on interviewing with the media? There was that NPR piece too.

[Cheese Sandwich]

3. The liberal media in action. It's like they're reading from a script.

More likely cause is they need clickbait headlines and drama, plus super lazy reporting. Instead of looking at facts they just repeat conventional wisdom.

[Juicy_Bellows]

4. The machine is running.

His Vox interview is pretty clear. He said open borders is a Koch brothers dream. He is clearly emphasizing that the right wants to get as much cheap labor as possible. You have to be able to barely think but if you can do that his message is clear. The very serious people DO NOT want Sanders to gain anymore traction.

[Cheese Sandwich]

5. You're supposed to just repeat the party line: Immigrants only do jobs nobody else wants.

Oops that's not exactly true. We should still be pro-immigration but we should also address the wage and employment effects.

Bernie has the guts to say that but it clearly makes some people worried.

Because it leads to the question of what kind of policies we need in order to make sure everyone has access to jobs and basic needs when there are a lot of new workers arriving every day. And the answer is people need some basic guarantees for economic security. It's easy to see why some people don't want the conversation to go down that road.

[Juicy_Bellows]

6. You said it much more eloquently than I.

His message isnt anti immigration - that is crystal. Those trying to paint it that way are revealing their true colors.

[Cheese Sandwich]

7. I think maybe Bernie ought to start pulling back from so many press interviews.

I get why he needed a lot of interviews at first but now his name is pretty well out there. There is a point past which the risk of damage from an interview just isn't worth it.

Bernie ought to know when he sits down with Ezra Klein for an interview he is going to get a question like "do you support open borders" ?

There's no politically safe way to answer it.

As bad as these headlines are, imagine the headlines if he would have answered yes I'm for "opening all the borders". They would be even worse. It would have been the actual end of his campaign I think.

[Juicy_Bellows]

8. You make a good point.

He might want to slow down the interview train a bit. Did you find Ezra kind of an ass on that Vox interview? I did, didn't really expect it from him.

[Cheese Sandwich]

9. Kind of.

He seemed kind of like a smug ass. But I'm not sure if it's just my bad attitude. I might have to watch it again.

[BainsBane]

11. He needs handlers, and he needs to listen to them.

He's not running for VT Senator anymore. He's making mistakes that hurt him with key Democratic constituencies. Political language is loaded. Why do people think Clinton is so careful with her words? She's been at this a long time. You all can complain about Clinton being scripted all you want, but the fact is she makes few of these slip ups.

The OP can claim it's all BS, but I picked up on that same thing when I read the interview. I'm not at all surprised it's making the press rounds. In addition to being politically inconvenient for him, it's inaccurate. Immigrants, or hypothetical open borders, which do not exist, are not responsible for youth unemployment. They are not going after the same jobs. In an alliterative America where those jobs paid much better, they could conceivably be competition, but that would look like a very different America with much higher food costs.

I also think he ought to quit milking this Koch brothers shit. It's getting old and sounds hollow. That works for campaign finance, but not border policy. There is no reason to invoke them in that context. It's empty scapegoating. It's not that I feel bad for the Kochs. I could care less. Rather, it insults the intelligence of voters, and that I don't like.

[Cheese Sandwich]

12. Ah yes the party line, immigrants only do jobs nobody else wants. Thanks for that.

[BainsBane]

13. Yes, well then there is the other party line

that they are criminals depositing anchor babies, living off welfare, using our healthcare and resources. Do you prefer that one? (No need to answer. I think we both know I have a pretty good idea about your thoughts on that are).

You know anyone that wants to pick oranges or work in slaughterhouses for minimum wage or less, who want to work as day laborers without benefits? That is all a function of the companies that set the terms for that labor. Any effective deterrent to undocumented migrant labor focuses on hefty penalties for employers. It's highly effective. So effective that such penalties have been taken down where they existed. Better to use the labor and then scapegoat them for problems in the economy to rile the base.

[Cheese Sandwich]

14. Goodbye

[BainsBane]

15. Oh, I'm not going anywhere

that you can count on.

[Cheese Sandwich]

18. You're making a lot of racial or ethnic stereotypes,claiming immigrants only work picking fruit and

slaughterhouses and stuff like that.

You should get out more. You'll see immigrants working in all manner of places. Including restaurants, landscaping, construction, hotels, grocery stores, department stores.

When you claim immigrants don't compete for jobs it's a lie.

For example you said:

They are not going after the same jobs. In an alliterative America where those jobs paid much better, they could conceivably be competition, but that would look like a very different America with much higher food costs.

Bernie is right. Immigrant labor competes in the labor market. It affects access to jobs and wages for other workers.

We can still be pro-immigration but we must acknowledge the impact on the labor market. And we should make policies to address it.

[BainsBane]

19. I'm speaking of primary industries

and I did in fact mention many of those industries in another post. There is a spell check error in that excerpt. It should read in an alternative America. Yes, immigration affects the overall labor market and wage levels. If borders were completely sealed, Americans would have to fill those jobs, which would mean employers would need to raise wages or figure out how to outsource production (which we know they do whenever possible). That kind of economy might look more like Japan, where wages are higher but then food costs are much higher. But then of course Japan also has immigrant labor.

There is a long history of border policy in this country that has actively promoted Mexican migration--primarily for agriculture, but yes over time other industries. When the economy retracted, the government rounded up those workers and sent them home. We are not talking about a recent phenomenon but rather a 100 yr long history. I know some two years ago immigration levels were at a low level. That generally happens when the economy declines. I expected they have rebounded some but haven't looked more recently. Regardless, it makes no sense to tie current low rates of unemployment to immigration. That has much more to do with structural economic changes since the 1970s: de-industrialization, the decline of unions, outsourcing, and the development of service and a finance-based economy.

I think a balanced immigration policy is fine, but using that to explain youth unemployment pits American against Mexican workers. It also comes in the context of a long trajectory of xenophobic comments by the GOP, which lives off that crap.

Then the fact is there is a party line on immigration because of Hispanic voters--American citizens. Bernie can ignore that if he wants, but that he is likely to lose those voters. They see that as not just about immigration but part of overall scapegoating of them as Hispanics--again due to a long history of just that. If Sanders supporters succeed in opening all primaries to Republicans, that tactic could conceivably work, but not with a Democratic electorate. That is political reality. He is an independent running as a Democrat. He isn't used to having to court Democratic constituencies. Thus he makes gaffes like those in the interview discussed in the OP. You yourself said he ought to quit giving interviews. This episode is a reason why. I suggested he ought to get some good handlers and listen to them, then he can give interviewers again. He may not like it, but he can't win a national election talking off the cuff. That is reality.

[Cheese Sandwich]

20. Really? You think Hispanic people are too dumb to understand basic math?

When you bring in more workers, more people are competing for a limited number of jobs, and it has a downward pressure on wages.

I'm pro-immigration. And we should ask common sense questions like how do we have more immigration while also protecting the workers from the extra competition in the labor market. Politicians pander and say immigrants only do jobs nobody else wants. It isn't true and everybody knows it.

You said

They see that as not just about immigration but part of overall scapegoating of them as Hispanics

So you think they would rather be pandered to and told obvious falsehoods about how immigration doesn't affect employment and wages in the US labor market?

I would disagree. More likely Latino workers want some basic guarantees and economic security, just like all the other working class people who have been ignored for far too long.

I think like other working class voters we are all ready for a dose of reality and for a leader to stand up and tell the truth on these issues. We need jobs, income, security, protections and some basic fairness and guarantees. Not pandering and feel good platitudes.

The party line is the way it because it lets spineless politicians escape these tougher questions about how to address the effect of immigration on the labor market and wages. They won't ask those questions because it leads to the question of what kind of policies we need in order to make sure everyone has access to jobs and basic needs when there are a lot of new workers arriving every day. And the answer is people need some basic guarantees for economic security. It's easy to see why some people don't want the conversation to go down that road because our whole system is arranged to not provide those things.

[BainsBane]

23. It's not pandering and it's not falsehoods

Your view of the labor market is one dimensional. It isn't basic math, and if you want to make that case, you need evidence to support it.

Americans rarely identify themselves as working-class, in part because of American ideology of upward mobility and in part because there are few manufacturing jobs anymore.

Race and ethnic identity are key in the US. Many people of color experience their lives through their racial and ethnic subject positions. The fact is, they experience daily shit from racist white people, hear it continually in the media. Additionally, many Latino families are amalgamations. You act like there is no overlap between American citizens and immigrants. A number of families have members who contain both, who have family back in Mexico or Americans born in this country whose parents are undocumented. You want them to rally around a platform scapegoating those workers for the economic dislocation of neoliberal capitalism? You aren't appealing to intelligence. You're appealing to prejudice and ignorance. That is the lifeblood of the GOP. If Sanders does that, he loses the Hispanic vote as well as white Democrats who don't appreciate racism and scapegoating. It's not a Democratic position. It's not a pro-labor position. We are talking about a Democratic primary. Party "line" as you call it exists for a reason. They are common positions among voters in the party.

Labor unions, by the way, suffered from their determination not to include undocumented workers or to organize across national boundaries. I thought some had learned from that experience. What you talk about undermines rather than strengthens worker solidarity, pits worker against worker instead of against capitalist.

I get that the Sanders campaign is drawing from white middle-class people frustrated at the decline of their own privilege. That is a losing demographic, as the GOP is learning. They can only win by gerrymandering and can't get a majority of the vote since they exclude the majority of Americans. Sanders is showing support from some of those very conservative voters in the polls, and he may benefit from that in open primary states. It isn't enough, however, to win the nomination or the general election. Acting like the GOP is not a good move for Democratic voters. It's not even a good move for the GOP.

[Cheese Sandwich]

25. Where's your evidence?

I've presented the same amount of evidence you have.

Believe it or not immigration isn't the top issue for most immigrants. Some Mexicans I know laughed because where do politicians get the idea the only issue immigrants care about is immigration?

They want job security, better pay, paid sick days, guaranteed vacations, paid parental leave, safe reliable child care, pensions and social security guarantees, health care as a right, affordable college.

You're way off the mark if you think immigration is the most important issue for immigrants.

[Adrahil]

24. More people also means more demand....

I don't support open borders, but I DO support MUCH more generous immigration policies with a higher minimum wage. Let's bring the underground economy of illegal immigration into the light and get those people legal protections. Unrealistically low immigration quotas fuel illegal immigration. And an illegal immigrant is a ripe target for exploitation.

Our country has prospered due to periods of high immigration. Let's make it legal.

[Aerows]

27. You just predicted it about 4 posts up.

Annnnd - Here it is. LOL!

[freshwest]

16. About the Koch brothers and other oligarchs, don't they exploit immigrants, too?

Now I have to go and read all of those articles to see where the outrage developed. I'm starting backwards, from your post and working my way up the thread.

But the GOP wants illegals to stay in that status to exploit them for cheap labor. They could have made the right choice many times but it's all about keeping the price of labor down

Also they want them to have no benefis or worker protections. tI believe Obama, some years back, did, or tried to, ensure that illegals get the same wages and benefits in order to treat them better and end this terrible black market labor situation. People are hurt badly by it, illegal and legal immigrants and natives.

.

[BainsBane]

17. Migrant labor is used chiefly in agriculture, meat, and construction and landscaping

To my knowledge. The Koch brothers may in some of their holds use undocumented labor. I don't know, but to continually use that trope is at best simplistic if not an outright distortion. There is a 100 yr history of US border policy in which the US government opened border for ranchers and farmers when they needed the labor and then deported immigrants when the economy contracted. That labor first was located primary in Texas, NM, and AZ, along the border, but over time also reached up into the agricultural areas of the Midwest. Cargill, GFoods, Dole, Del Monte, and the many hundreds of farmers who supply them are more likely to depend on that labor than the Koch brothers.

[beam me up scottie]

10. Another meme bites the dust.

But will be endlessly recycled here by the same people who brought you "Not Good Enough Bernie".

K&R

[NCTraveler]

21. Gutierrez has done more positive...

Gutierrez has done more positive work for immigrants and work on the positive movement forward of compassionate and progressive immigration reform than Sanders or any poster on du. Sick and tired of seeing blanket condemnation of such a good man because a stupid comment hurt people's feelings. Get over it and go see all he has done. Sanders doesn't come close to Gutierrez progressive record on immigration. Not even close. Trashing the leading progressive whole cloth because of a stupid comment.

To be clear, Sanders record on immigration is anemic at best when compared to Gutierrez. Gutierrez leads in this area for progressives, not Sanders.

[DanTex]

22. The Vox article was very good, and also brought to light some of Bernie's weaknesses.

What Ezra Klein was getting at with the open borders discussion was more of a philosophical question, and Bernie seemed to not get it at all and just bulldozed through with his usual talking points.

The philosophical question is a good one: for most people in the world living in poverty, simply coming to the US would drastically increase their quality of life and earning potential. So, if we're interested in global inequality, doesn't that imply a massive increase in immigration to the US, possibly even to the extent of open borders?

Bernie replied by saying this is a Koch Brothers proposal (it isn't, as far as I can tell), and also that massive immigration would result in a lot of cheap labor which would hurt American workers. As the article points out, the view that immigration hurts American workers is at odds with the economic literature on the topic. And it also carries the moral implication that protecting American workers is more important than lifting people out of dire poverty.

[Luminous Animal]

28. It may not be a Koch brothers proposal but it is certainly a concept that they promote. Primarily

through the libertarian outlet, Reason Magazine, a publication that the Koch's have funded for decades.

Reason magazine, in print since 1968, has long focused on immigration policy in general, and, specifically, open borders—the idea that people's movement across national boundaries ought to be free of government restrictions.

http://reason.com/archives/2015/04/30/open-borders-in-america/

The CATO Institute, also heavily funded by the Koch brothers also defend open borders.

I think Ezra Klein does not know what "open borders" mean. It's a libertarian market-based scheme to exploit labor without any of the benefits of citizenship... ever.

[HFRN]

26. 'Bernie is critical of the H-1B visa program' One of the few to tell the truth about it

here's Hillary on the issue - one word 'MORE'