At some point we should stop pretending that the anti-Hillary wing of the party is "pro-union".

[DanTex]

Because, the way things are going, by the end of the primary, most major unions in this country will end up being thrown under the bus by anti-Hillary "progressives".

Not only that, but a substantial portion of the same people are prepared to sit out the general election and let the union-busting GOP take over the country if the primary doesn't go their way.

People who bash unions and then sit by idly in the face of an impending GOP takeover are not concerned about the best interests of unions and working people.

[MADem]

1. A lot of the anti-HRC "Democrats" sound like Libertarians to me.

smh!

[darkangel218]

5. Seriously?

MADem
1. A lot of the anti-HRC "Democrats" sound like Libertarians to me.
smh!

[MADem]

15. Yes. If the shoe doesn't fit you, by all means, don't wear it.

Some light reading for you:

http://www.salon.com/2015/07/20/why_libertarians_should_love_bernie_sanders/

[Luminous Animal]

23. Have YOU read the article? Because nothing in that article

supports your opinion.

[MADem]

46. Everything in that article supports what I have said, which isn't an opinion, it's an observation.

The headline of the piece is this:

I gave up Ayn Rand for Bernie Sanders: How I grew up and traded libertarianism for a progressive “socialist”

Here's another article for you to chew on: http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-06-08/meet-the-voters-who-can-t-decide-between-rand-paul-or-bernie-sanders

[Alittleliberal]

68. For real?

That doesn't say what you think it does haha.

[Hortensis]

74. Consider - leftist libertarians don't have a candidate. If they're going to play, which side

are they going to play on and which candidate's team are they going to join? Perhaps you imagine them supporting HRC? To me, joining those hurling copying right-wing anti-HRC slurs over here seems a whole lot more likely. In fact, the only choice. (Although, strictly speaking, Jim Webb is somewhat left-libertarianish, "Jim who?" is a problem.)

[MADem]

84. I think the problem is that even though they are a small group, overall, libertarians have one of

those "big tent" POVs that encompass a range of "libertarian" thought, from conservative to liberal.

Many of the people snarking at me, here, only understand the "Ron Paul" school of Libertarianism, I suspect.

And yes, "Jim Who?" is a priceless and perfect example.

[MADem]

81. We can go back and forth all day, but yes, "for real." It does say what I think it says. nt

[Luminous Animal]

212. You are well aware that authors do not write their own headlines. Lyngar long

gave up on libertarians before Bernie entered the race.
But, as usual, you pander to the ignorant. You know damn well, few will click on your link and discover your bullshit.

[MADem]

214. Aw, look at you, with the invective and anger!

Luminous Animal
212. You are well aware that authors do not write their own headlines. Lyngar long
View profile
gave up on libertarians before Bernie entered the race.
But, as usual, you pander to the ignorant. You know damn well, few will click on your link and discover your bullshit.

You don't know that he didn't write that headline--it seems pretty integral to his narrative, in actual fact.

[azurnoir]

215. are you hoping no one reads beyond the headline?

[MADem]

216. No, of course not. Good grief, did the word go forth, or something?

Sure sounds like it!

[azurnoir]

217. Nope because the article doesn't say he traded Bernie for Ayn Rand because they're the same it says

the opposite in fact, you do understand that socialism and Randism are not the same , right?

[MADem]

218. Who's talking about socialism? Sure you read the article? The guy is clearly a left-leaning

LIBERTARIAN who was hiding out in the GOP, who has decided that he suddenly wants to affect a more progressive lean.

Maybe you should, errrrr, read the whole article.

That's a keeper!!

azurnoir
217. Nope because the article doesn't say he traded Bernie for Ayn Rand because they're the same it says
View profile
the opposite in fact, you do understand that socialism and Randism are not the same , right?

[azurnoir]

219. Leftists don't support Ayn Rand and socialism that would be Bernie ya know is opposite

of Rand's 'philosophy'

[MADem]

220. You keep talking about socialism. nt

[azurnoir]

221. and your link was about someone switching from Ayn Rand to Bernie Sanders

if you do not understand how socialism or Democtratic socialism plays into that, what can I say

[MADem]

222. I see you got the duty. Take charge of the post and all property in view....

and have one of those great nights!

[azurnoir]

223. are you suggesting there is an organized effort going on here to do what exactly?

[MADem]

224. Good night! nt

[azurnoir]

225. yep you too nt

[MADem]

203. Yes, it does.

[Scootaloo]

25. Ah yes. Deliver broad insult, then back off with "Well, not YOU!" when called on it

[MADem]

28. Are you saying that it is an "insult" that Libertarian/Democrats "Lite" are supporting Sanders?

Not sure what you're trying to say, here.

Because if you want to pretend he doesn't get a measure of support from that corner, you're wrong.

Now, if you want to run those people off, be my guest. Some of them are trerribly rude and don't do your candidate any favors.

[Phlem]

31. BLah Blah Blah

That's all you post. You didn't even read the article you linked too.

Guess someone has to sling that mud like a good little surrogate.

Little Rascal.

[MADem]

50. And you reply....blah, blah, blah indeed. You expect me to take you seriously?

I read the article that I linked "to"--really.

I don't call you a mud slinger or a "good little surrogate."

How telling that you've got to direct your ire squarely at me rather than discuss the matter at hand.

Phlem
31. BLah Blah Blah
View profile
That's all you post. You didn't even read the article you linked too.

Guess someone has to sling that mud like a good little surrogate.

Little Rascal.

[zeemike]

91. Too much horseshit.

This is far down this thread as I can read...I will leave it to you and the others to point out it stinks.

[Scootaloo]

33. You didn't say "Libertarians are supporting Sanders" in your initial post, did you?

[MADem]

43. You can read (again) what I wrote. Did my use of quotation marks confuse you in some fashion?

Some light reading for you, too:

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-06-08/meet-the-voters-who-can-t-decide-between-rand-paul-or-bernie-sanders

http://berniesanderssocialist.com/democratic-socialist/5-things-bernie-sanders-believes-that-are-actually-libertarian/

[Phlem]

103. Oh look, more blah blah blah!

If the people can't decide between Paul and Bernie, they were never Bernie supporters to begin with.

[MADem]

118. Not if their signature issue has to do with isolationism or 2nd Amendment concerns.

Voting can be very single-issue for some people.

Phlem (4,606 posts)
103. Oh look, more blah blah blah!

If the people can't decide between Paul and Bernie, they were never Bernie supporters to begin with.

The immature subject lines don't do you any favors.

[Phlem]

132. And your false facts serve you how?

Oh that's right, you want to win the Bernie Bashing contest.

[MADem]

133. If something is a fact, it is not false. nt

[Phlem]

135. Wow.

Twisting the night away, huh.

[MADem]

136. The snark doesn't help you make any points. nt

[Phlem]

147. That's right, I forget your the

be all end all of information, logic, and opinion since you pass it around so freely!

[MADem]

150. Personal invective and bad grammar don't make the sale, either.

Phlem
147. That's right, I forget your the
View profile
be all end all of information, logic, and opinion since you pass it around so freely!

This is a "discussion" board. Not a cheerleader's forum.

[Phlem]

173. "This is a "discussion" board. Not a cheerleader's forum."

.

You WIN!

[Armstead]

186. Isolationism? You mean like not going into a stupid and destructive and needless war in Iraq?

Not setting the match to a tinderbox in the Middle East for no good reason?

If that's your yardstick, call me a libertarian.

[MADem]

202. Well, he didn't mind Kosovo, and he has no problem with drones, so that's probably a poor choice of

a word. And then, there's Lockheed-Martin, and that dreadful fighter plane, and the continued funding of combat materiel, above and beyond standard, CR personnel line items, so yes, I will concede he's not really an isolationist.

[Armstead]

207. You missed the irony there

So now it's a bad thing that Sanders is not a monolithic pacifist hippie, but may actually be pragmatic, and view situations individually?

On balance, I trust Sanders a ot more than the neo cons. He's not totally against any intervention -- but he's not likely to support something stupid like, oh invading a country like Iraq for no reason, and helping to unleash the hounds of hell in that part of the world.

[MADem]

208. I don't dispute your trust in him at all. I know you are a supporter.

All I'm saying is that he appeals to different factions for reasons that, if examined, are oppositional, and some of those factions are going to be sorely disenchanted, likely well before the general.

[Armstead]

210. Some, but not necessarily all

and any gain is good

[karynnj]

75. Great the more people who love Bernie Sanders the better!

However, even if libertarians love Bernie, that does not mean that everyone supporting Bernie is a libertarian. It certainly does not mean that Bernie Sanders is a libertarian.

In fact, a few years ago, at a town hall Bernie had at the Unitarian Church at the top of Church street in Burlington - he was asked by a Ron Paul supporter, who praised him whether he saw himself as agreeing with Ron Paul on issues. Bernie's answer was fantastic - outlining how there were huge differences in their philosophies and that on economic issues they were completely opposite. Bernie - rather famously - is a democratic socialist. On the size of government and economic justice it is ridiculous to suggest that a democratic socialist is the same as a libertarian.

[Armstead]

189. You seem to ignore one key phrase in that article

"When I was a libertarian-leaning Republican, I..." Note the use of the word "was" rather than "am" or "is" or "are"

As for the rest of that article...I suppose it escaped your notice than it is criticizing conservatism, Corporatism and the delusions of libertarians in believing the government is the institution that exploits them.

[MADem]

191. I don't ignore it.

And I read the article, with it's "Come to Jesus" conversion message. Several times.

The point remains that the writer came out of another camp. Like I said elsewhere, the GOP ripped off their left wing, cooked it, dipped it in hot sauce, and ate it. The people that didn't leave quite naturally became "libertarian leaning" because that was the only outlet that offered anything resembling 'freedom.'

Further, I am not sure why you insist that all Libertarians are conservatives. Some of them take the view that the government is tyrannical and it's "liberation" to be freed from the boot of government oppression--that without those silly rules, that people would be free to pursue their own happinesses, economic and otherwise--they want government to abolish all laws that create rules for, and limit the behaviors of, people in any way, and they should have absolute privacy in their affairs, even if they involve behaviors that are illegal under our present system. They might not want to pay for things like roads and schools, but they want to have the freedom to go where they please and not educate their children if they so desire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism

[Armstead]

192. And if more people Come to Jesus, so much the better

Not too long ago, everyone in the Democratic Party was wrestling with the "What's the matter with Kansas" question i,e, Why do so many people vote against their own interests?

At least it used to be the goal to try and win them over to the side that truly does represent their interests. Used to want to build a Big Tent.

If more people like the author of that piece "see the light," I should think that would seem to be a positive thing....And if Sanders can have anything to do with that, good for him.

[MADem]

201. Well, the odds are they will be disappointed.

They'll be wanting one type of "change they can believe in" and when it falls short of their expectation, they'll turn on their hero and excoriate him mercilessly.

And that grouping of people has ideas as to what constitutes freedom, but they do not necessarily marry well with the ideas of those who feel that a social safety net (medical care, social security, decent roads, schools, wages/working conditions, etc.) is important. See, you make rules about that kind of stuff and you impinge on their "freedom."

There is a tension between the two poles--it's not a coming together exercise, IMO--it's more like a "which faction might win" thing.

[Armstead]

206. It all depends on individuals. It's not cut and dried

We're not branded with a D or R or "Left" or Right" regarding all issues at birth. Some people are more ideological than others, but it's all a spectrum, and people are capable of changing their earlier opinions. Or setting priorities about what is most important. Tere are people who might be in favor of regulation of corporations, even though they are libertarian in otehr ways.

Remember those "swing voters" that Democrats so often tout as the margin of victory? It's kind of funny that when there's a candidate who might appeal to them, but os not in the establishment mold, that is suddenly no longer the goal.

And it's not "all about Bernie." The author of that piece agreed with that: "Despite my appreciation for his ideas and policies, Sanders, nor any public figure, is the messiah. I don’t believe in an all powerful savior, political or otherwise, but I do believe that ideas and people matter, and Sanders offers something that we haven’t tried before—unabashedly progressive ideas."

[hrmjustin]

26. I know there are anti-Hillary people here who like Rand Paul.

[Warren Stupidity]

70. way to elevate the discourse justin

I do believe there exists a Hillary supporter who likes Donald Trump.

See how that works? yes it is inane shit stirring bullshit.

[hrmjustin]

99. I try buddy!

[Armstead]

187. Go back and read DU during the Iraq War debate

He was pretty popular these parts back then for his stand. Not just among "anti-Hillary" people, whatever that means.

[hrmjustin]

232. Rand Paul was popular back in 2003 here?

[Armstead]

233. Ron Paul, his Dad was.

I should have clarified....Peas in a pod.

[Warren Stupidity]

7. Ah the approved new talking point from the hate-bernie-supporters site.

That's good. You caught us fair and square. Yup we are all Rand Paul libbers pretending to be Democratic voters. Maybe now you can get Skinner to start the purge?

[DanTex]

11. It is interesting that DU's favorite pundit, HA Goodman, is a Rand Paul supporter, don't you think?

[MADem]

60. You've got some nerve, stating the obvious!

HA Goodman has contributed some remarkably Bernie-friendly essays. Of course, he also tried to insist that George Bush--not Bernie--was "the real socialist."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/bernie-sanders-is-not-a-socialist_b_8047266.html

[Fawke Em]

66. Did you take a poll?

H.A. Goodman is not DU's favorite pundit.

If I had to take an educated guess, I would say that honor would go to Robert Reich or Paul Krugman, with honorable mentions going to Thom Hartmann, Rachel Maddow and, overall, Keith Olbermann.

I'm a Sanders supporter and I think Goodman misses the mark quite frequently. His latest on the unsecured email server started quite strong, but he wishy-washed in the middle until it became muck. It wasn't a very well-written article at all.

[Armstead]

188. And some people here like to spout Rush like and Hannity like bromides

Hippie punching, tossing around "Socialism" like Hannity.....

[MADem]

17. See the link upthread. The caveat applies to YOU, too.

Don't feel as though anyone is forcing you to place your foot in that shoe, should it not fit you. Spare me the aggrieved attitude, too--I'm not moved.

[Hortensis]

19. Rand Paul's sounding very much like a social conservative, just raised libertarian.

[Ken Burch]

9. "smh!"?

Is that a thing?

What does it stand for?

"slightly more hoarse!"? "sinister matching handbags!" "small metal hamster!"?

[Warren Stupidity]

10. probably some sort of bat signal thing

[darkangel218]

13. LMAO!!!!

[Art_from_Ark]

228. "Send more help"

The tag team of Bernie-bashers is getting the stuffing knocked out of them.

[MADem]

18. I can only shake my head at people who don't understand what that means. nt

[Blus4u]

24. Some More Horseshit?

Do I win?

[MADem]

29. You win the prize for not being able to see the forest for the trees, and then responding smugly, to

boot!

smh!

[SusanCalvin]

92. Shake acknowledged. nt

[m-lekktor]

21. snort my hiney!! seriously

shake my head is what it means.

[beam me up scottie]

166. LOLOL!

[Jurassic Fiend]

45. Smack Mah Head!

[Phlem]

104. Some more horseshit.

[Hortensis]

32. Could well be, MADem. Leftist libertarians tend to profoundly mistrust religious and union

power structures, as well as others, if anything more than government.

And goodness knows we see some really frenzied and extreme attacks on those here. Libertarian personalities must come in mild flavors, too, but most of the real thing I've seen or read are anything but moderate, which would certainly fit some of the comments here, such as the need to do away with religion. Uh-huh.

(Note this refers to true libertarian personality, perhaps 13% of the population, not people mistakenly calling themselves libertarian because it's in style or something.)

[MADem]

55. I think there are many flavors of libertarian, as well, from the

"Republicans who want to smoke pot" model, to the more hard core "rugged individualists" who want to force everyone in need to rely on charity but who also want to burn all the charitable religious institutions to the ground.

I also agree that a lot of "libertarians" call themselves by that label because they think it's cool, like skinny jeans or those artfully arranged floppy wool hats!

[Hortensis]

62. Good thing for us real libertarians are a small group since we're not interested in

turning our nation into various third-world countries, a fascist state, or a continent of anarchist power centers.

[MADem]

90. I am not one, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Dem, and too old to change my stripes.

But I do recognize that libertarians encompass a broad range of political thought, from liberal to conservative and points between (much like Democrats, though you'd never know it from reading DU alone). Once upon a time, the GOP used to have a liberal wing, but they chopped that off, cooked it to a crisp, dipped it in hot sauce, and ate it.

[Hortensis]

106. We'd all be better off if southern conservatives were still

fighting the Civil War with conservatives in the "North" from their base in the Democratic Party. Divisions now are nothing to what they once were. Unfortunately in this case, though I can't really be sorry they're the GOP's problem now.

[MADem]

116. I'm glad they cut and run--because a huge chunk of the Dem base would be still sticking with the

Party of Lincoln were that the case.

[Hortensis]

121. Hmmm, too possible. But united conservatives have been a disaster.

[MADem]

124. The only way they can win is to stop people from voting.

Oh, and lie--they're good at that, too.

We are approaching a tipping point, I think. Even conservatives, I suspect, are getting tired of their own bullshit!

[Hortensis]

128. So agree. It really seems like it. That election interference thing, though...

What will keep selective voter purges from continuing in even larger numbers in 2016 when so many victories were achieved with that and other old-fashioned election-stealing methods. Fraudulent felony purges in Florida alone may have cost Gore the 2000 election.

John Roberts, who already had a long history of opposing voting rights and was in the middle of that fight for the GOP, is now Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. And now with electronic voting and no way to verify votes in many states...

[MADem]

131. You're right--they screw with the machines, too...where they can.

That whole business with the license cut backs in Alabama--that's just disgraceful, and so obvious!

http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/09/voter_id_and_drivers_license_o.html


Closures announced Wednesday will leave 28 Alabama counties without a place to get a driver's license.

That map could also be labeled "Where do all the black people live?"

[Hortensis]

140. ITM, half this forum thinks their the evil demon they have to defeat is HRC.

[MADem]

142. That cartoon is superb!!! nt

[TheKentuckian]

181. No, the demon is clearly the Turd Way which must be flushed in order to actually be able to

seriously contest the TeaPubliKlans and Clinton is merely the current face of the phony center, more secular and inclusive wing of interventionist, corporate enabling, anti civil liberties, Wall Street dominated right on its multi decade effort to assimilate the Democratic party.

[Doctor_J]

44. yes, libertarians who want socialized medicine, schools, universities, and mass transit, and

$15 minimum wage.



You people get more "hillaryous" by the day

[Hortensis]

64. Not everyone has well integrated political beliefs, Dr. Thinking things through

very thoroughly is not exactly a strong point of zealous types, especially newly hatched ones.

[MADem]

101. Ahhh, the "you people!"

Wondered how long it would take for that to crawl out...!

Doctor_J
44. yes, libertarians who want socialized medicine, schools, universities, and mass transit, and
View profile
$15 minimum wage.



You people get more "hillaryous" by the day

More light reading:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/07/07/why-we-shouldnt-call-bernie-sanders-a-liberal/

[whatchamacallit]

72. Everyone sounds like a libertarian to the pro-establishment, democratic right

[MADem]

85. Well, the provided essay was written BY one of those libertarians, so your thesis has a

few kinks in it.

[beam me up scottie]

168. The right wing of the party has been red baiting since Bernie announced, too.

EEEEK!

BERNIE'S GONNA TAKE MY YACHT!

[karynnj]

77. Because many support a democratic socialist? Doesn't sound Libertarian to me.

Not to mention, Bernie walks the walk as to supporting unions:

[MADem]

79. Are you suggesting those people in that picture are libertarians?

Or are you confusing "libertarian" with "union member?"

I am not taking your point, at all.

The trend on DU is to disparage unions as non-representative of their membership, owing to the NEA endorsement.

[karynnj]

95. No, they are union members, who are being supported by a candidate who is a democratic solcialist

I am disputing your entire logic supporting this idiotic op.

Simply put.

1) You have articles that say some libertarians like Bernie Sanders

2) You then somehow take this to mean that Bernie Sanders supporters are libertarians - because some are.

3) this apparently supports the OP because libertarians are anti union.


You are way too smart to really believe that the majority of people who support someone other than Hillary Clinton are libertarians.

[MADem]

115. I made a simple observation.

I have provided links that back up that observation.

For my trouble, I've been called names and gotten the usual grammar school mocking. It's like "lather, rinse, repeat" up in here.

Now, let me break down what you just said:

1) You have articles that say some libertarians like Bernie Sanders
Yes, I do--that's quite accurate. SOME libertarians. I've posted them here.

2) You then somehow take this to mean that Bernie Sanders supporters are libertarians - because some are.

No--NO, NO, NO. I didn't "somehow take that to mean" that at all. You go back and read what I wrote. Words have meanings. I didn't say "Bernie Sanders supporters are libertarians." You said that. What I said, precisely, is "A lot of the anti-HRC "Democrats" sound like Libertarians to me." And they do. Particularly the 2nd Amendment types, and the isolationist types, and the people who want to force all the religions that provide charitable outreach from the public square along with the charletans and mega-church bullshitters.

3) this apparently supports the OP because libertarians are anti union.
What I've observed--and this is a separate issue entirely--is that since the NEA has chosen to support what some people here regard as the "wrong" candidate, that a number of people are now decrying/deriding/denigrating the UTILITY of unions, the validity of elected union leaders to represent their membership, and the entire representation process (local representatives who act on behalf of rank-and-file members)of the unions. I am reading, here on DU, that "unions suck" (that's shorthand for all of the issues I have articulated previously) and I am not reading it from Clinton supporters. It's sour grapes, and then some.

[shenmue]

82. Yes

[Tommy2Tone]

89. That would make them nonDemocrats

Which is what I think most of them are.

[MADem]

94. Could be. Hard to say.

I think some (apparently I have to say NOT ALL, just SOME, loudly and often or face 'hurt feeling' squeals) people don't really know what they are here-- at DU, anyway-- but they like the style of the board and the lively conversation. I've seen plenty of POV that does not hew to the party platform at all. Perhaps they're "cafeteria Democrats?" Who knows?

[Cali_Democrat]

2. Good point

If anything, they're anti-union.

[Fawke Em]

38. If anything, you guys live in some odd bubble.

It was an incredibly stupid point.

[merrily]

236. +1

[MADem]

56. I think some would be pro-union if the NEA had endorsed the desired candidate.

This union support thing, it's rather fungible, I notice.

Where the union stands depends on where the supporters sit, I've noticed. It's pretty blatant, too.

[Fawke Em]

63. We have and still do support the rank and file union members.

They'll be the ones voting for Bernie. Not the TPP-supporting, union basher Hillary just coz their upper echelon told 'em to.

[MADem]

123. One percent of a union membership complained, and that generated a number of "NEA sucks"

threads here.

My take is this: rank and file union members have local representation. If they aren't communicating their wishes to their local representatives--that's their fault. If they are communicating their desires and their representation is ignoring them, then they need to fire their representation.

The fact of the matter is, though, that there has been no massive outcry. The majority of the union appears to support the decision that the leadership announced.

As for the leadership, a union president who started out as a cafeteria worker, and who worked her way through college, taught grade school, often in tough neighborhoods, and got a graduate degree isn't an out-of-touch elitist--that's an up-from-the-ranks leader. I suspect she has her finger on the pulse of her membership.

[Bluenorthwest]

165. That's one Union. My Union will not make any Primary endorsement, some have endorsed Bernie

and more will endorse one or the other. Attacking Sanders supporters as if we are anti Union when many of us are in fact Union members because one Union endorsed Hillary is just idiotic.
The OP is a load of crap. It's Union hating, divisive, anti labor bullshit. That's what it is. Are you a Union member? If so you should not be engaging in such crappy tactics.

[MADem]

172. Who is doing this attacking of which you speak?

You know, I have observed that the Sanders supporters I know "in real life" -- not here on DU, mind you -- regard Clinton as a viable but second choice. To an individual, in fact. I haven't heard one Sanders-supporting person express hate, ire, dislike--anything like that. Simply a preference. They like his new car smell, or something--he's something different and that is appealing.

I don't see those people, expressing their preference, as part of the "anti-Hillary wing" of the Democratic Party. It's only here on DU that I encounter this creepy kind of "enemy" vitriol, usually accompanied by boat loads of poop references--shit, horse shit, bullshit, crap, shitflinging, etc. It's like a meme. It's odd. Look at some of the responses in this thread--it's piled higher and deeper!

I find it interesting that you, too, morph the term "anti-Hillary wing" into "Sanders supporters." Like I said, I've only seen that kind of thing here on DU. Not IRL.

[mcar]

3. Good points

[azmom]

4. Hey, Dan where were you yesterday?

I missed your posts in a sadistic kind of way. Glad you are back.

[Ken Burch]

6. The polls prove Bernie's as electable as HRC now.

The "we have to go with HRC or we're doomed" argument has been totally discredited.

[Warren Stupidity]

8. non-sequitur much?

[Armstead]

12. Naw. People are just complaining about the process and the timing of endorsements

It's safe to say that most Sanders supporters are also very supportive of unions and see unionization as an important part of democracy.

However, unions are institutions, and like all institutions are imperfect. They are subject to internal politics, disagreements, corruption and all the otehr foibles of human nature. Just like government, business, religion, etc.

As such, they are not immune from criticism. And if people object to specific actions, such as premature endorsements and a perception that the leadership might not be operating democratically, then criticism is warranted.

But if people want to try to score cheap political points by implanting a "Bernie is anti-union" or Bernie is a "Union Buster" or "Sanders supporters are libertarians who hate unions" there's nothing to stop it.

[cyberswede]

16. yep.

The say that Sanders supporters are anti-union is pretty silly. Shallow, lazy thinking.

[Doctor_J]

51. more like calculated lying

Every single Sanders supporter I know thinks unions should be grown and strengthened. This op and the new meme from the Sanders hate site are lies.

[SusanCalvin]

93. Yeah, these efforts to plant memes are kinda interesting. nt

[merrily]

237. +1

The supporters of those who give incentives to send jobs overseas, etc. are the pro worker, pro-union group now. Must be backwards day on DU every day.

[upaloopa]

41. "And if people object to specific actions, such as premature endorsements and a perception that the

leadership might not be operating democratically, then criticism is warranted."

What makes an endorsement premature? Is it because they didn't endorse Bernie? Why is the leadership not operating democratically? Is it because they didn't endorse Bernie? Why is the criticism warranted? Is it because they didn't endorse Bernie?

In your paradigm only Bernie is worthy of union endorsements and if he doesn't get them something is wrong. That saint Bernie attitude is why he will never get much more that 25% support.

[Armstead]

53. Yeah Bernie supporters somtimes have double standards a well as positions of integrity

Surprise, Surprise Sgt, Carter!

Sometimes criticism is based on a position of intellectual consistency -- sometimes it's perception based on biases,

Newsflash, people who supporters of Sanders is a multitude of individual humans.

If you'd bother to take off your own bias glasses, you'd see that the criticisms are not monolithic. Sure some are sour grapes -- just as Clinton supporters would be griping if a union endorses Sanders.

Others are people in or very familiar with the operations of unions, and believe the leadership is not taking members into account.

Me? I thunk it is too early for unions to be making endorsements in a primary.

In otehr wordd a lot of different people with varying perspectives.

Human nature is a strange and wonderful thing.

[upaloopa]

61. I responded to one person ONE PERSON

Talk about bias!

[Armstead]

83. un huh

"That saint Bernie attitude is why he will never get much more that 25% support."

That was not just directed at one person. I don;t alone have that kind of power that my opinions could determine what percentage each candidate gets...If I did I might behave myself better.

[upaloopa]

87. Well then behave yourself better and we will all be happier.

[Indepatriot]

14. Hillary's pro TPP stance is Anti-Union to

the core. She's the one throwing them under the bus.

[darkangel218]

30. That^^!

+ 1 mil!

[Hoyt]

80. The largest unions -- like teachers and government employees -- aren't directly impacted by hysteria

around the TPP. Maybe they recognize it is good for our collective future. Heck, members in unions for law enforcement and fire fighters, most service industries, etc., won't be hurt by TPP. Most of those will be helped, even Truckers will benefit.

[SusanCalvin]

96. Corporate tribunals being placed above governments

Is good for no one but the plutocrats.

[Hoyt]

98. We've had those tribunals since 1959. Sorry, hasn't happened. In fact, every one of the countries

party to the TPP, as well as European Union are fine with the ISDS. Why -- because they know that needed foreign investment will not go to countries that can take their company assets and/or treat their company unfairly to promote domestic companies.

[SusanCalvin]

162. Why it turns out you are correct,

But could be said to be incorrect at the same time.

Yes, they've been around, but they're getting used and abused (if that's not redundant) more and more. I'm sure you're aware of recent egregious examples.

So I'm against anything that perpetuates this system.

Thanks for the incentive to do a little research.

http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21623756-governments-are-souring-treaties-protect-foreign-investors-arbitration

[Hoyt]

167. Fair enough, at least you looked.

[restorefreedom]

183. ^^^^THIS^^^^ nt

[840high]

209. ....x10

[SidDithers]

20. DU rec...nt

Sid

[whatchamacallit]

58. You surprise me sometimes

I know you're way smarter than this. Why do you rec nonsense?

[Scootaloo]

22. Which people would this be, DanTex?

Let's see some substantive support for your latest flailing.

[cherokeeprogressive]

27. I don't believe union endorsements necessarily translate to votes from members.

I'm not sure whether that makes me anti-Hillary or anti-union in your book.

Sure, there are those who vote with their union cards rather than their heads. We call them lemmings (even though it's a misnomer and the lemming thing isn't real).

A little story for you... In 1994 I became a member of AFT out of necessity. Sometime in 1996, the teaching staff at the school I taught at were required to attend an after-school meeting with our AFT Rep. We were given pamphlets that instructed us who we were to vote for, with checkboxes so we could indicate our intent. I listened dutifully until the Rep instructed us to sign the back page and return them to her before leaving.

I slowly began to tear my pamphlet into small pieces and when I was done I got up, dropped them on the table in front of her, and walked out. There were a couple audible gasps from those who'd do whatever AFT instructed them to do, and giggles from everyone else. I was outside smoking a cigarette when most of the rest of my co-workers walked out of the room as well. Needless to say, educators at most schools in my district heard about it, and it surely didn't help my poopularity [sic].

I don't give a fuck who my union tells me to vote for. My vote is my own. I'm sure a large part of the NEA membership feels the same way. When I worked for GM and was a member of the UAW in 1980, I don't even remember hearing who the union endorsed. I guess that'd be because of the difference between auto workers and educators.

[HooptieWagon]

34. Ooohhhh, straw man!!!

So the red-baiting didn't work out? Your lame attempts at flame-baiting sure are good for morning lolz.

[Fawke Em]

35. Do you ever get tired of making stupid assumptions?

Actually, a better question would be, "Aren't you ever ashamed with the theories you come up with?"

No Sanders supporter has bashed "unions." We've questioned the motives of the upper echelon - just like we do in any organization that seems to make pronouncements from on high without consulting their members/employees/users - but no one is busting the rank and file union members. In fact, most Sanders supporters here are rank and file union members.

[Phlem]

149. It's not just him.

The active group is starting to become apparent. Just follow the Op's and the names will become familiar.

[whatchamacallit]

36. How does Hillary getting endorsements from union officials

translate into Bernie supporters being anti-union? As a longtime member of several unions (AMF 47, IATSE...) I find this ploy bizarre. Another bullshit-based OP.

[Live and Learn]

37. Union membership has steadily eroded under the establishment leadership of both parties.

Only Bernie will help unions to make a come back.

[whatchamacallit]

40. There's no room for reality

in these just-throw-shit-against-the-wall-to-see-what-sticks posts.

[Phlem]

42. Oh look, more, bullshit.

It just pours out of you done it?

[Fawke Em]

71. Proving I care about my fellow man, I'll be glad to start collecting to provide

him a year's supply of this:

[Autumn]

48. Unions have been attacked for years. Why haven't the democrats been fighting against those attacks?

Putting on their comfortable shoes and walking with them so to speak. I have not seen many democratic leaders out there standing up for Unions against the GOP . So who is throwing who under the bus?

[Comrade Grumpy]

49. Crap spewed, job done. You've earned some R&R at hillarysupporters.com

[whatchamacallit]

52. Lol!

[Doctor_J]

54. ah. That explains this ridiculous op

I don't visit hate sites.

[Ed Suspicious]

57. Sometimes I get the impression that this guy is here only to stir shit. I may be wrong, but it's

the impression that I get.

[HooptieWagon]

76. First impressions are often correct.

OP likes the attention he gets from flinging feces into a fan. Most people would be embarrassed to be covered with their own shit, but apparently not Dan.

[CentralMass]

86. I believe that your instincts are correct.

It is notable that at every Bernie Rally that I am aware of, he has labor union representation as opening speakers, who receive thunderous applause from the 10's of thousands in attendance. Yup, no union support there.

[sarge43]

109. I think you called n/t

[JoePhilly]

119. Maybe he should create an alternative persona ...

... and post OPs using that persona's voice.

That seems to be very popular around here.

[SixString]

138. Nailed it.

[DanTex]

143. I've spoken to "this guy" and you're mistaken. His intent here is to shed light on the hypocrisy

of people that claim to support unions, but reflexively bash them for the sin of supporting a candidate who has had their backs her entire career.

[840high]

211. Clinton likes TPP

[beam me up scottie]

175. BINGO. Look at some of his other ops:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251499588

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251581267

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251621588

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251640800

[neverforget]

184. I especially love the red baiting ones.

Nothing like a red scare to keep the troops in line.

[beam me up scottie]

185. EEEK! Bernie's gonna take my company and my yacht!

I really wish people would quit feeding him because it just encourages more of the same but sometimes I can't help myself either.

[NorthCarolina]

59. Pretzel Logic

YAY

[LoveIsNow]

65. Number one. Most of us are pro-Bernie,

not anti-Hillary, though I know from reading your posts that you will never believe that (see fallacy: invincible ignorance).

Secondly, wtf?

I feel great pity every time I read about a union endorsing Hillary. It's like they are holding on to the thinnest handhold with their fingertips (the DLC-style Democratic party) and there Bernie is, holding down a rope, but most unions are afraid of letting go of the fingerhold in order to grab the rope.

[AgingAmerican]

67. And you came to this conclusion how?

Another in a long line of linkless OPs

[Major Nikon]

105. ...

[AtomicKitten]

69. Giddyup!

[karynnj]

73. Bernie Sanders has prominently joined picket lines for unions here in Vermont

https://twitter.com/sensanders/status/557238916261371904

Beyond joining the picket line, he was the leader they went to for support.


http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/local/2014/10/28/fairpoint-cites-vandalism-strikers-plead-talks/18055843/

It is ridiculous to label everyone not for Hillary as anti union. It is both obnoxious and without any basis in fact.

[cantbeserious]

78. Ever More Attacks On Bernie And Supporters - So Sad To See Democrats Suckered By These Tactics

eom

[Thinkingabout]

88. Hillary supporters are pro-union, I am pro-union and pro Hillary also. A smart union will be

trying to elect Democrats.

[HooptieWagon]

113. Maybe the H1B visa holders...

Will join unions and vote for Hillary.

[Thinkingabout]

126. Probablly will, it will be a good experience for them.

[Gore1FL]

97. I was in aunion for 15 years. I am pro Union

I am not pretending that, nor am I pretending my support for Bernie!

Next.

[DRoseDARs]

100. Uh huh, next you'll tell us Sen Sanders voted for the repeal of Glass–Steagall.

Oh, wait, one of your fellows tried launching that propaganda and was laughed off the board.

[Bernblu]

102. Clinton will send more jobs overseas and that will weaken unions

This is one of the dumbest posts I've seen on DU. Neo-liberals like Clinton send our jobs overseas and union membership has been declining. Vote for Clinton if you're happy with this because more jobs will be sent overseas and unions will continue to decline when Clinton is President. If you want to help working people and unions vote for Bernie.

[ornotna]

107. You could post this over in Omaha Steve's Labor Group

Ask the union guys what they think of your OP.

[Ed Suspicious]

129. +1

[SusanCalvin]

163. That would be hilarious.

[Maedhros]

108. We're not sitting idly by.

We're working to elect a Democratic President who will fight the Republicans instead of conspire with them.

[Vinca]

110. Odd, the facts seem to point to the exact opposite of your post.

[TheProgressive]

111. Desperate Hillary Supporter (tm) syndrome...

Sanders supporters, by definition, are for all people. Sanders supporters, if I may, are FDR/JFK REAL democrats who want the best for everybody and our planet... including unions. How lame to say that Sanders supporters are anti-union.

Real democrats want a Real Democratic Candidate. Clinton is not a real democrat - Sanders is.



Note: I am on a iMac and can't put in the TM symbol. The Alt sequence did not work. Any suggestions?

[CentralMass]

112. Right on.

[TheProgressive]

179. Tooooo Cooollllll

Many many thanks 1000words!™


Is there some sort of list for these special characters for the iMac?

[concreteblue]

114. More Rovian "Attack them on their strengths"

From the Shillaries.
OTOH, it is a strong indicator of the desperation the Clintonistas are brought to in the face of the polls, the tens of thousands that see Bernie in any given week, etc.

[MindfulOne]

117. Logical Fail. Guilt by association. Because we oppose NEA leadership we oppose unions?

Bullshit.

[Ino]

120. I can't believe I haven't ignored you yet.

Done.

[Z_California]

122. Oh cool, another "Sanders supporters are bad because..." Thread

Thanks for another intellectually dishonest post.

This Sanders supporter is the son, nephew, and grandchild to Union Ironworkers among whom were business agents and Democratic organizers. All are Sanders supporters.

You have zero credibility and your OP's and comments are consistently infuriating and lacking in intellectual honesty.

You and your crew of HRC supporters have made it difficult to have an honest conversation on DU, and I don't appreciate that.

[MisterP]

125. this is GD:P, not the sandbox: you're going to get answers and reality pops yer bubbles

[DanTex]

127. Oddly, I haven't gotten many answers yet, just ad hominem attacks.

[HooptieWagon]

130. Which was your intent.

If you insist on flinging shit into a fan, you're obviously expecting to wear it.

[DanTex]

134. No, my intent was to highlight the hypocrisy of people who claim to be pro-union, and yet routinely

throw unions under the bus, and come up with conspiracy theories to explain why unions endorse a candidate who has had their back their entire career.

[MADem]

137. +1. That's the very disconnect I am seeing, as well. nt

[DanTex]

141. No surprise that's your opinion. Mine's different.

Bernie supporters seem to consider anything not sufficiently praising of their man is "flinging shit." Best to get used to the fact that there are a lot of opinions out their, and yours is a minority even among liberal Democrats.

[Warren Stupidity]

146. an answer to a logical fallacy: "er, that's bullshit". You got that all over the place.

[DonCoquixote]

198. what facts have you given

to say bernie will "throw unions under the bus?"

Not the photo which showed him in a picket line,

Not my video where Hillary with her own words supports H1b Visas, a measure which was meant to weaken unions.

If you are going to accuse people of lies and illogic, it makes sense you would show some actual...well evidence, unless of course you are here to insult, in which case, there are many sites that will let you do just that.

[MrMickeysMom]

144. You know the BEST way to "bash" a Union?

It's to have the candidate make an emergency unplanned appearance to get you to endorse her, regardless of what the members of your union seriously want to consider.

THAT'S Union bashing, for fuck's sake.

[Warren Stupidity]

145. Here's another way: support 'free' trade agreements that kill domestic jobs

and export those jobs to countries with little or no enforcement of environmental or workplace safety and with, of course, no unions.

[MrMickeysMom]

174. Kickin THAT shit...

[DonCoquixote]

148. that's ok

because of the h1b visa Hillary supports, there will be no need for employers to even worry about unions.

Hillary threw labor under the bus a long long time ago.

[Thinkingabout]

151. How many union jobs do you think is replaced by h1b visa?

[whathehell]

157. What you said..

[Thinkingabout]

180. Must be zero, I don't know of any.

[beam me up scottie]

152. Cheer up, Dan. Everyone knows who the pro-union candidate is.

https://cdn1.lockerdome.com/uploads/d73de6fa0da8c4a91f9f41c53af1965694a82fb6e383d668e69cb60b82c25ad0_large

[DanTex]

153. I agree. The unions have spoken clearly with their endorsements, and their candidate is.........

[beam me up scottie]

155. Management has spoken. Got any pics of Hillary walking the picket line, Dan?

[Bluenorthwest]

169. Bernie Sanders

National Nurses United -- a 185,000-person union and the largest group of nurses in the country -- endorsed Bernie Sanders at their national conference Monday.

"Bernie Sanders has a proven track record of uncompromised activism and advocacy for working people, and a message that resonates with nurses, and, as we have all seen, tens of thousands of people across the country," NNU Executive Director RoseAnn DeMoro said in a press release announcing the endorsement. "He can talk about our issues as well as we can talk about our issues. We are proud to stand with him in his candidacy for President today."
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/10/politics/bernie-sanders-nurses-endorsement-2016/

[bowens43]

154. blah blah blah blah.......

[AtomicKitten]

156. Maybe YOU should stop pretending Hillary is Pro-Union.

45 times Secretary Clinton pushed the trade bill she now opposes
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/15/politics/45-times-secretary-clinton-pushed-the-trade-bill-she-now-opposes/

Cables Show Hillary Clinton's State Department Deeply Involved in Trans-Pacific Partnership
http://www.ibtimes.com/cables-show-hillary-clintons-state-department-deeply-involved-trans-pacific-2032948

Hillary Clinton's Record of Advocacy and Support of the TPP
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/17/1393899/-Hillary-Clinton-s-Record-of-Advocacy-and-Support-of-the-TPP

First lady records show Clinton promoted NAFTA
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN1933416820080319?i=1

Hillary's NAFTA Lie
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hillarys-nafta-lie/

Hillary On Record For NAFTA Support
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/02/24/463048/-Hillary-On-Record-For-NAFTA-Support

When Clinton Promoted Outsourcing
http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/opin/pr_freetrade.html

[whathehell]

158. Say what?..I'm pro-union AND pro-Bernie....

Who among Bernie's supporters is "bashing unions"?

[jfern]

159. Unions shouldn't back someone who served on the union busting

Walmart board of directors for 6 years

[Bluenorthwest]

161. What Union are you a member of Dan Tex?

Most of the Union members I know, including myself, are supporting Bernie Sanders. Because he's pro Union member.

[Teamster Jeff]

164. Clown

[highprincipleswork]

170. The union leadership may back her, the actual teachers, not so much.

[link:http://www.politico.com/story/2015/09/hillary-clinton-teachers-union-214190|

As this reports, Hillary is getting the endorsements of the leaders of lots of things. The actual union membership, not so much.

This is a problem. Just like the lack of debates and the DNC.

Hillary may win the nomination, but not have a mandate or plurality or an electorate she can count on. That would really be sad.

We need more debates, to let the public choose who would really be the best candidate. I chosen that way, I have no problem with it. Under the current system, the Democrats are just one other corrupt institution in my book.

[beam me up scottie]

171. Congratulations, Dan. You managed to piss off DUers who are union members now.

You were hippie bashing and insulting young Bernie supporters in the other thread.

Who's next, grandmas?

[DonCoquixote]

193. of course

The Conservative wing of the Democrats, aka those the GOP had the good sense to drive out, will do and say anything to get the Democrats to abandon working class folk in favor of the Plutocrats.

[beam me up scottie]

196. They're drawn to threads like this too, it's their red meat.

Any reason to bash the left, if it wasn't Bernie they'd find another to vilify.

[DonCoquixote]

199. They should be thankful for Bernie

Or else the media microscope would be on Hillary, who would keep on being silent thanks to DWS, Our lady of incompetence and backstabbing.

Yet if Dws manages to crash this reef, the same Hillary voters will vote for dws in 2020.

[beam me up scottie]

200. Don't even JOKE about that.

DWS in 2020 ----

[rurallib]

177. where did you pull that load of horse crap from?

[Babel_17]

178. Union member here

Long story short, it's like they tell us at the meetings, speak up if you want to be heard.

[TheKentuckian]

182. What a phony and willfully misleading frame with plenty of pseudo drama

Are there calls for a reduction in collective bargaining rights?

Is someone withdrawing their support for card check?

Are folks pushing "right to work" all the sudden?

Is there an uptick from this alleged group in support for "free trade"?

Where are those posts encouraging free riders?

Show me the calls for shutting down strikes.

What bus exactly have unions been thrown under? The disagree with leadership's endorsement circulator? A bus so lightweight that a toddler could punt it into a stable orbit.

PLEASE! That thar shit is beyond weak all the way to pathetic and dishonest.

The say anything gang rides again.

Some say Camp Weathervane but the guidance system seems much more akin to Captain Jack Sparrow's compass that unerringly takes one to where they truly want to go from anywhere.

[Katashi_itto]

190. Is this week's new meme?

Cool story bro

[Logical]

194. LOL, Dan being Dan once again. Always entertaining! Nt

[PowerToThePeople]

195. Total bullshit OP.

No wonder I full ignored you.

(had to log in on another window and refresh this page to respond)

Enjoy your stay.

[Vattel]

197. Is this satire?

[Gothmog]

204. Agreed

[Dawson Leery]

205. Vile.

The far left is as bad as the far right when it comes to attacking Hillary Clinton.

Just as in 2008, the Obama supporters, now Bernie supporters are threatening to sit out the election if Hillary is the nominee.

It is beyond absurd. The far right is making similar kindergarten level threats if they are given Kasich/Jeb/Rubio as their candidate. "Give me what I want or else!"

[Bohunk68]

227. Your 2008 remark does not jive with my memory of that time.

It was the Hilllary supporters who became the PUMA's. You know, Party Unity My Ass? The same is happening all over again except this post uses projection.

[SunSeeker]

213. K & R

[eridani]

226. Members are perfectly free to ignore their leaders n/t

[John Poet]

229. At some point we should stop pretending that the pro-Hillary wing

of the party is pro-union.

They must be more "pro-Walmart" if they are backing Hillary.

[liberal N proud]

230. Anyone or any group not supporting Bernie is likely going to be thrown under the bus on this board

Those are my observations.

Some of the Bernie supporters are scorched earth types, do it my way or no way.

[marlakay]

231. We belong to a strong union

My hubby is retired from Bart in SF.

They havent sent me anything about who they are for yet.

I am totally pro union as i believe Bernie is and will vote for him no matter what union says. The management at unions is not always what the people want.

[restorefreedom]

234. there is an antihillary wing?

and no one invited me?

gee i thought i was PRO bernie.

but bernie will absolutely not "throw union people under the bus"

Bernie's policies better represent union workers than anybody else is in this campaign, although I think O'Malley's would be good too.

and as I said before, many of us are not fans of loyalty oath, no matter how its presented. If the Dems put up a candidate that is in favor of the 1% and they lose, it's their fault not ours.

[merrily]

235. Typical bull puckies.