DKos's One Pissed Off Liberal...nail on head again.

[madfloridian]

Performance and polish vs policy and truth

It seems a bit silly to me to argue about who 'won' the debate. Not because I thought my guy, Bernie, lost, I don't think that at all, but because people who have already chosen a candidate will see it through the 'optics' of their preexisting views. I'm sure Hillary won in the eyes of her supporters and the same goes for Bernie and his supporters. I think all of that is beside the point.

....There were also contrasts between the democratic candidates, perhaps subtler but no less important contrasts. While Bernie was characteristically blunt, others were threading needles, back peddling and dodging questions.

Webb – scary fucker, don't throw a hand-grenade at him.
O'Malley – polished, self-absorbed and devoid of honest emotion.
Chafee – goofy and uninteresting. His claim to fame? Never had a scandal.
Hillary – polished and charming but threading needles and dodging questions, particularly on Iraq and Wall Street.
Bernie – blunt and honest with the best interests of the American people clearly at heart.

Except for Bernie, they were all performers in the classic sense. They were trying to look presidential. Hillary won that competition. She was smooth and well rehearsed. I'd give O'Malley a not-so-close second on that point. He was very polished and well-spoken but his determined effort to immediately turn every answer to his record, while maybe a 'smart' debate tactic, underscored what he is most interested in, himself.

[wyldwolf]

1. LOL

It seems a bit silly to me to argue about who 'won' the debate. Not because I thought my guy, Bernie, lost, I don't think that at all.

[bkkyosemite]

3. Feng Shui is not caring too much

for arrows (thinking about your logo or should I say Hillary's)

[wyldwolf]

6. Feng Shui is a silly as crystals and homeopathy.

Perfect for Sandernistas.

[wyldwolf]

23. nice to see newbies. If you're anything, you're entertaining and non-consequential.

[merrily]

70. As opposed to neither entertaining nor consequential?

[truebluegreen]

72. S/he shoots, s/he scores!

[wyldwolf]

73. Yes - some of those here too

[merrily]

76. Sure are!

[Lizzie Poppet]

27. The arrow's pointed in PRECISELY the appropriate direction...

...for a Third Way corporatist.

[Ikonoklast]

50. Dog Whistles R Us.

HRC camp got that down pat.

[Bubzer]

56. Its what they're left with in the face of things like this

1. C-SPAN: Sanders (7.2k) |Clinton (938)
2. TIME: Sanders 60% | Clinton 12%
3. CNN: Sanders 81% | Clinton 12%
4. Drudge: Sanders 61% (126,448 votes) | Clinton 6.74% (13,925 votes)
5. Dailykos: Sanders 59% (7,970 votes) | Clinton 34% (4,659 votes)
6. Slate: Sanders 75% | Clinton 18%
7. Syracuse: Sanders 78.11% (3,190 votes) | Clinton 15.77% (644 votes)
8. Fox5: Sanders 77.35% (30,248) | Clinton 15.86% (6,204 votes)
9. MSNBC: Sanders 81% | Clinton 12%
10. Wishtv8: Sanders 77.65% | Clinton 13.15%
11. Advocate: Sanders 77% | Clinton 19%
12. Nationalreview: Sanders 558 votes | Clinton 39 votes
13. 9news: Sanders 8.9k votes | Clinton 2.2k votes
14. Wwnc: Sanders 78% | Clinton 15%
15. Philadelphia.cbslocal: Sanders 81.03% | Clinton 14.56%
16. Postonpolitics: Sanders 84% | Clinton 10%
17. AJC: Sanders +225 -20 | Clinton +62 -108
18. Controversialtimes: Sanders 84.42 | Clinton 10.39
19. Tcpalm: Sanders 74% | Clinton 18%
20. WRIC 8NEWS: Sanders 75% | Clinton 6%
21. WGY: Sanders 68% | Clinton 12%

All three focus groups declared Sanders the victor.

1. Frank Luntz Focus Group: “The participants agreed overwhelmingly that Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders was the big winner at the first Democratic debate.”
2. Fusion Focus Group: “Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders was the most popular candidate among a group of young registered Democrats responding to Tuesday’s Democratic presidential debate in Las Vegas. The panel voted 8 to 3 for Sanders against the runner-up Hillary Clinton, with one panellist saying it was a tie between the two.”
3. CNN Focus Group: “Majority of CNN Focus Group Think Sanders Won First Debate”

http://www.emediaworld.com/politics/sanders-won-the-cnn-poll-but-you-must-see-this.html

[nolabels]

67. That silly margin of error bares its head again!

Wasn't there a poll one time or another where 16-17% of the populous believed there have been space in aliens that have been or currently in contact with earth.

Funny thing how they have came out with a new thing today that they have discovered a large space aliens structure only a few thousand light years away.

[wyldwolf]

7. Feng Shui is a silly as crystals and homeopathy.

Perfect for Sandernistas.

[madfloridian]

15. Saying it twice doesn't make it any truer.

[bkkyosemite]

17. LOL

[artislife]

43. He's a gem.

There is some serious seething in those posts....

[Ed Suspicious]

58. What's that guy's problem? What an angry little man.

[madfloridian]

61. He was just as angry at Deaniacs as he is Bernie supporters.

Been going on for years.

[nxylas]

68. I always thought Wyldwolf was a she

Not sure why I thought that.

[madfloridian]

69. Nope.

[rwsanders]

24. Didn't see the debate, but by your response

and the fact that you made sure you posted first must mean he did really, really great.

[wyldwolf]

25. so now the order people respond to posts in is indicative of something?

The progressive conspiracy and faux outrage engineers have been working too long today.

[rwsanders]

81. I'd say yes, when it is accompanied by snide remarks and disparaging labels. Take a chill pill.

Buh bye.

[wyldwolf]

82. Ridiculous. Your reply is a prime example of someone posting something for the sake of posting

[Ed Suspicious]

60. He did alright. He is unquestionably my candidate.

Hillary presented herself very well. Didn't win my vote, but she has her act together.

[merrily]

71. Emphasis on act?

[Ed Suspicious]

74. The words were chosen carefully.

[merrily]

77. Just as I suspected, Ed Suspicious!

[TheBlackAdder]

9. The logo says, "Right Turn Ahead." When or how sharp of a turn it will be is unknown. nt

[whatchamacallit]

40. During the debate I posted this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251675143

That was my honest impression of Hillary's performance about 3/4 way through the debate. I thought Bernie did well, but then my support is based on more than a debate performance or a poll or a blog post... People on DU are losing their shit trying to prove THE WINNER!!1! My question, like the OP's, is to what end? What do you think winning the DU fracas buys you? Nothing was decided last night and there's a long way to go.

[Bubzer]

55. It would definately be silly to argue who won...

There are two camps at issue in this regard... the group of pundits who gave their corporate-directed opinion, and all the other groups who participated in polls.

1. C-SPAN: Sanders (7.2k) |Clinton (938)
2. TIME: Sanders 60% | Clinton 12%
3. CNN: Sanders 81% | Clinton 12%
4. Drudge: Sanders 61% (126,448 votes) | Clinton 6.74% (13,925 votes)
5. Dailykos: Sanders 59% (7,970 votes) | Clinton 34% (4,659 votes)
6. Slate: Sanders 75% | Clinton 18%
7. Syracuse: Sanders 78.11% (3,190 votes) | Clinton 15.77% (644 votes)
8. Fox5: Sanders 77.35% (30,248) | Clinton 15.86% (6,204 votes)
9. MSNBC: Sanders 81% | Clinton 12%
10. Wishtv8: Sanders 77.65% | Clinton 13.15%
11. Advocate: Sanders 77% | Clinton 19%
12. Nationalreview: Sanders 558 votes | Clinton 39 votes
13. 9news: Sanders 8.9k votes | Clinton 2.2k votes
14. Wwnc: Sanders 78% | Clinton 15%
15. Philadelphia.cbslocal: Sanders 81.03% | Clinton 14.56%
16. Postonpolitics: Sanders 84% | Clinton 10%
17. AJC: Sanders +225 -20 | Clinton +62 -108
18. Controversialtimes: Sanders 84.42 | Clinton 10.39
19. Tcpalm: Sanders 74% | Clinton 18%
20. WRIC 8NEWS: Sanders 75% | Clinton 6%
21. WGY: Sanders 68% | Clinton 12%

All three focus groups declared Sanders the victor.

1. Frank Luntz Focus Group: “The participants agreed overwhelmingly that Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders was the big winner at the first Democratic debate.”
2. Fusion Focus Group: “Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders was the most popular candidate among a group of young registered Democrats responding to Tuesday’s Democratic presidential debate in Las Vegas. The panel voted 8 to 3 for Sanders against the runner-up Hillary Clinton, with one panellist saying it was a tie between the two.”
3. CNN Focus Group: “Majority of CNN Focus Group Think Sanders Won First Debate”

Clearly, the overwhelming majority thinks Bernie won. It's not even close.

http://www.emediaworld.com/politics/sanders-won-the-cnn-poll-but-you-must-see-this.html

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

2. OPOL is always a righteous read. nt

[madfloridian]

44. Agree with that.

I was impressed when he found out he had inadvertently hurt someone's feelings. He posted a big apology post. That's being kind.

[Uncle Joe]

4. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, madfloridian.

[madfloridian]

45. Very welcome, Uncle Joe.

[JaneyVee]

5. "Fair and balanced".

[99th_Monkey]

8. The one thing I liked about O'Malley was his closing statement

instead of re-iterating his policy positions & making it about him, he instead
reflected on how cool it was to be one-of-5 on a debate stage having an intelligent
debate about real issues voters deeply care about -- in stark contrast to the GOP freak-
show of insults & petty bickering about how best to screw the American "Little People",
immigrants & minorities & poor folk, along with how best to further destroy the
middle-class in America.

I liked that.

I'm a Bernie support however, and feel Bernie did great over-all.

[retrowire]

16. yeah, I'd shake O'Malleys hand for that. n/t

[MadCrow]

30. I, too, was impressed by O'Malley's closing statement.

He definitely highlighted the contrast between the Democratic and Republican debates.

[Duppers]

31. +100

O'Malley also made points with this Bernie supporter. I think the OP was too rough on him.

[madfloridian]

79. I think OPOL was rather rough on O'Malley.

I disagree with him on that.

[ibegurpard]

10. spot-on

Although I do think Hillary showed some flashes of fire and unscriptedness. She needs to do that more.

[madfloridian]

11. OPOL's opinions of other candidates do not necessarily reflect my own.

Not necessarily. But maybe a little.

[elleng]

12. 'Determined effort to immediately turn every answer to his record' is CRITICAL

for a candidate about whom many knew little, and whose most important asset is his record accomplishing difficult tasks as an executive.

Too damn bad some see this as 'self-absorbed.'

[madfloridian]

14. As I said, OPOL's opinions are his.

[FSogol]

48. At least he has a record of accomplishments. People like the OP* never see their own biases.

Whose record and ideas should have O'Malley spoken about?

Reminds me of during the last election when the Washington Post printed an article accusing HRC of being ambitious. Like anyone running for the Presidency of the US wouldn't have ambitions.



* OP meaning the writer of that article, OPOL. I'm not referring to madfloridian.

[elleng]

52. Oh right, 'ambitious!'

FSogol!

[RobertEarl]

13. Bernie won just by being there

And he put on a good showing.

Now America has a better grasp of who Bernie is. Hillary has been running forever, Bernie just started. Bernie wins!

[jtuck004]

19. This. n/t

[dpatbrown]

21. AGREE

I totally agree with you. Both sides can argue, but undeniably, Senator Sanders won for the reasons you gave. You hit the nail on the head.

[Hortensis]

18. Well, at least give Hillary credit for triumphing over her "likeability" problem.

No, no, it's not that SHE is unlikable, it's that people tend to like men more as they become more powerful and tend to like women less as they become more powerful. That why her enemies on the right and in the MSM have been telling their audiences every day how unlikeable she is.

That people are talking about everything in politics BUT the giant factor of her womanhood does not mean it doesn't exist. It means it's far more pernicious and embedded in our power structures than people realize.

That's only one of the "she did everything they did but did it dancing backwards and in high heels" things that went on on that stage last night. Women have to be better to be seen as equal. And she was SO great that she managed it, and then some.

[DJ13]

20. "she did everything they did but did it dancing backwards and in high heels"

Four of them were in a debate, Hillary was auditioning for DWTS.

[Ned_Devine]

34. Cartoons by your sig line

What is that cartoon in your responses? I see it every time you post, but I have no idea what it is. It's great art

[DJ13]

35. I actually dont know

I ran across it in a .gif search on Google a long time ago, then decided to use it.

[Ned_Devine]

36. It's mesmerizing!

I can't stop watching it! I like your Hitch Hiker's Guide avatar too! I picked Dean as my avatar long before he endorsed Hillary. I'm pretty disappointed in him for that.

[DJ13]

37. I'm disappointed in him as well

Power corrupts I guess.

[FSogol]

47. Those are characters from the game, Team Fortress. n/t

[tex-wyo-dem]

26. Obvious Hillary feels the possibility of...

Her being the first woman POTUS is an advantage since she brought it up all on her own last night.

Her answer to the question of how her presidency would differ from President Obama's was kind of weird.

[Hepburn]

29. Hit me like she was channeling Maggie Thacker

She completely turned me off last night.

[truebluegreen]

75. A disservice to women imo:

I wouldn't vote for anyone just because of gender and I don't think that should be a campaigning point (if it were, VP Palin would have been a selling point for McCain).

[passiveporcupine]

28. Totally disagree with the reason for disliking her

Becoming more powerful has endeared more people to Elizabeth Warren, not less.

Hillary comes across as an authoritarian, something she inherited from her classical conservative dad.

But she did come across as more likable in this debate. She was very polished, and part of that is appearing "likable". She's had some tutoring.

To me the appearance does not matter. It's the meat of the debate that matters and in my opinion, Bernie still won, because he does not have to play games in getting his point across and accidentally saying something he really does not mean. Truth always wins out.

[eridani]

42. Other than the waffling, I actually liked her performance until she got to the Iranians as enemies

--part. That reminded me of "We came, we saw, he died." Utterly disgusting. Iranians certainly aren't saints, but they are thousands of times better than the Saudis.

[Samantha]

32. Maybe the realistic answer to "who won" can be boiled down to one thing

Just put aside the propaganda spewed forth by the corporate mouthpieces. Put aside the inside-the-Beltway crowd and just ask this one question: who walked out of that auditorium with much more than they walked in with? If the stats being reported as to money raised as a result of the debate, number of new Facebook followers, and opinions of focus groups, the answer is Bernie Sanders walked out with much more than he arrived with.

I call that a winner.

Sam

[madfloridian]

41. Yay, good point you just made.

Thousands of new followers on the web, 2 million dollars in overnight donations...A lot.

[BeanMusical]

64. +1

[Rosa Luxemburg]

33. Shows how gullible people are

People like reality shows, celebs and fashion fueled by the pathetic media. I wish America would grow up.

[madfloridian]

39. .....

[historylovr]

46. Amen!

[whatchamacallit]

38. Couldn't agree more

Thanks OPOL!

[Enthusiast]

49. Kicked and recommended!

[marym625]

51. if dodging questions, talking in circles and sounding rehearsed is Presidential

Then yeah, Hillary won in that area.

[BeanMusical]

65. +1

[NonMetro]

53. He calls Webb A "scary fucker"?

I think that kind of language should be reserved exclusively for people like Ben Carson and Ted Cruz. Now there's a pair of "scary fuckers!"

[Dem2]

54. "Except for Bernie, they were all performers in the classic sense."

It seems the author's bias came shining through at this moment since clearly this is open to interpretation.

[upaloopa]

78. Bernie's foreign policy answers were as weak

as answers by the others on various subjects. His Black Lives Matter and gun control answers were learned a few months ago but of course only he can evolve. Everyone else is lying.
I doubt he can ever live up to the expectations of his supporters. At some point they will see him as yesterday's news.

[Fearless]

57. And the internet polls are indicative of who people support.

So, what does that say?

[truedelphi]

62. And ain't it very interesting that no one on DU is mentioning

How Hillary Clinton supporters thought she won the debates between her and Barack Obama, back in 2008.

It doesn't mean much, does it?

[Fearless]

63. People see what they want to see. Yes.

[Gamecock Lefty]

59. I Used to Love DU . . .

Until the BernieBots took over.

[BeanMusical]

66. "The BernieBots"

Interesting.

[frylock]

80. u mad?