I Challenge ANYONE Who Claims that Hillary's Iraq Vote Disqualifies Her to Prove They Said the Same

[McCamy Taylor]

in 2004 about Kerry. If you can not provide proof that you loudly, aggressively repeatedly denounced Kerry as a war hawk at every opportunity, that you vowed to stay home in protest at the horror of having to vote for a Democratic nominee who supported the Iraq War, if you can not give actual links---no fair saying you muttered it under your breath or mentioned it to a friend once, or thought about it real hard---if you did not blog about Kerry's war vote, if you did not carry signs denouncing Kerry's war vote, if you did not devote columns to the subject of Kerry's war vote---

--and you now insist that Clinton's Iraq war vote disqualifies her, then you have either

1) changed your mind or

2) have a double standard as in it is only wrong if Clinton does it.

Come on guys. I am waiting for the links. I am waiting to hear how much you despise Kerry. I am waiting to read about how you fought tooth and nail through the primary and how you contemplated suicide after the Democratic convention.

Tell you what. I'll google someone who has denounced Clinton as a war hawk at every opportunity. Surely our friend, Will Pitt must have had some really harsh words to write about Kerry in 2004. I'll bet he raked him over the coals...

Oh my! Look what I found:

Yet for a Senator like Kerry who believes in bipartisanship, who chose to honor the office of the Presidency by practicing that bipartisanship, who trusted a number of publicly-made administration promises, who thought getting weapons inspectors into Iraq required the threat of force the choices presented in this vote were far more complex than those being made down on the street by the protesters.

http://www.truth-out.org/archive/item/46460-william-rivers-pitt--the-trial-of-john-kerry#14451360217641&action=collapse_widget&id=0&data=

Et tu, Pitt? Kerry's vote was complex. Clinton's vote was---simple? Why is that?

And look at this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x605385

Please bookmark this post, because I am puking sick of typing it over and over again.

Kerry did not say he would still have gone to war in Iraq. This is what he said:

"Yes, I would have voted for that authority but I would have used that authority to do things very differently," Kerry said after a short hike from Hopi Point to Powell Point on the Grand Canyon's South Rim.

You can bet I will bookmark this post.

[jfern]

1. Well

1. I certainly didn't vote for Kerry in the primary
2. Kerry was hurt by the fact that many were really voting against Bush and not for him. His vote for the war hurt his campaign, since Bush could just say "you voted for it".
3. Unlike Kerry, Hillary said there was an Al Qaeda Saddam connection
4. Unlike Kerry, Hillary voted for the Kyl-Lieberman amendment to allow Bush to go to war with Iran
5. Kerry had a history of being anti-war with some other wars
6. Unlike Kerry, Hillary wants a no fly zone in Syria where Russian planes are flying
7. Unlike Kerry, Hillary supported a coup against the democratically elected President of the Honduras.

[RobertEarl]

3. Nice list, jfern

Lots of Truth there.

McOP has a point, but like recent rants, goes way overboard. Hopefully your sound and reasonable explanations strike a chord with that OP and they ease up?

[jfern]

6. Yes

Kerry's Iraq war vote was definitely an issue. Dean probably would have been stuck at 2% in the polls if Kerry had voted against the Iraq war.

[BlueStateLib]

9. Kerry's and Clinton's 2003 aumf vote was for diplomacy not war

Mr. KERRY : "In giving the president this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days — to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough and immediate inspection requirements, and to act with our allies at our side if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force. If he fails to do so, I will be among the first to speak out."

Mr. KENNEDY :The better course for our Nation and for our goal of disarming Saddam Hussein is a two-step policy. We should approve a strong resolution today calling on the United Nations to require Iraq to submit to unfettered U.N. weapons inspections or face U.N.-backed international force. If such option fails, and Saddam refuses to cooperate, the President could then come to the Congress and request Congress to provide him with authorization to wage war against Iraq.

Mr. BIDEN: The President has not asked us to go to war. He has said he wants the power to be able to go to war

Mr. WELLSTONE. There is a critical distinction between going it alone and taking action in conjunction with our allies. Our focus should be going to the United Nations Security Council and asking for a resolution that makes it clear to Saddam Hussein that he must disarm. Saddam must give arms inspectors unfettered access. And, if he does not comply with this new UN resolution there will be consequences, including the use of appropriate military force. But we must do this together with our allies. We must bring the international community on board. This resolution allows for a preemptive, unilateral strike, which I believe would be a huge mistake
http://aumf.awardspace.com/

[jfern]

11. They knew what they were voting for

[JDPriestly]

33. Contrast their naive trust in Bush with Bernie's reasoned objection to the Iraq War Resolution:

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/video/flashback-rep-bernie-sanders-opposes-iraq-war

Sanders was smarter than all those guys put together.

That's why we prefer him to Hillary now.

And it was not just in that situation that Sanders' great intelligence and good judgment was apparent. He also voted against the Patriot Act which has been misused and which has a definition of terrorism that does not work well if you think about it carefully.

Sanders is just the best. There simply is not question about it.

He has been proven right on so many issues on which he took a stance that was against the crowd, against the accepted platitudes.

Another example of Bernie's superior judgment and ability to think independently is his answer to the question about what America's greatest security threat is at this time.

All the other candidates might as well have been reading from the media with their answers about this or that military threat.

Bernie in my opinion correctly identified climate change as the greatest threat. He did not read that in the Wall Street Journal or in the New York Times right before going to the debate. It wasn't the answer you see on the evening news, all the talk about Syria, ISIS, etc. Bernie thought for himself.

People who think for themselves and use their reason to come to answers that are not just taken from other sources without much criticism make good leaders. Bernie will be a good leader.

Generally, Hillary comes up with hackneyed solutions and "acceptable" statements, always politically correct, the focus-group tested answers. She is not a brilliant critical thinker. She is a crowd-follower and a crowd-pleaser. She is not a leader. In fact, what has she ever lead in her life other than the State Department, hopefully under Obama's guidance.

On the other hand, Bernie stands out in the crowd. He is a leader. He was mayor of Burlington, Vermont and was re-elected several times.

Bernie is the best candidate. That's all there is to it. He is the leader.

[enid602]

56. no

Bernie's 'no' vote just might be his single most important legislative accomplishment.

[stillwaiting]

34. We all knew at the time what that vote was authorizing. nt

[delrem]

36. NO! The whole world knew that Bush wasn't about "diplomacy".

The largest mass demonstrations in history prove beyond doubt that every conscious human being knew what Bush was about. Whether people came out and demonstrated or not, we all KNEW.

Don't tell me that if you were an adult at the time, that you didn't know!
"Diplomacy" wasn't even in the picture.
And there's no way you can rewrite that history, to make some bloody war-candidate appear different.

[KingCharlemagne]

82. Please show me where Kerry called for war crimes trials for the Bush Junta. TIA - nt

[reformist2]

2. Sorry, but if you voted for the war in Iraq and still can't apologize for it, you're a War Hawk.

[RobertEarl]

4. I ain't voting for Kerry this time!

Op has convinced me not to!

H still doesn't get it, tho.

[ion_theory]

53. This is all that needs to be said IMO.

I feel like she didn't want to apologize and give the typical "we were given bad intelligence" answer though. If she did it would hurt her because people will say what's to stop you from making a similar bad decision if given faulty intelligence. However, a simple "we made a mistake. I made a mistake and it haunts me to this day knowing we were lied to and rushed into a war we had no business starting. As President I will unsure all intelligence is properly vetted to ensure we can never make a disastrous mistake like invading the wrong country again."

But she won't say that, as far as I'm aware, because she's a war-hawk. Or excuse me, a "liberal interventionist." A Brookings Institute generated term if I've ever heard one. Anyone who does not come out and denounce what George W. and his Right-wing cronies did, from planning years ahead, to lying to the American public, to unnecessarily invading and killing hundreds of thousands of people, is not a true progressive and unfit to be the 'progressive party's' nominee for president.

[uponit7771]

54. Hillary has already said it was a mistake

[cprise]

60. That's not an apology. And if she tried

her recent alliances with neocons and her record in State would show her insincerity.

[artislife]

65. If only she had that one "mistake" for us to judge her

She is a war hawk. Look at her whole career. My personal feelings is that a lot of the border children are escaping from Central America and the bloody "mistakes" happening. She is willing to send them back.

As a Latina, sometimes I see her caring for women and children in a way that still separates children who are brown.

[Scootaloo]

78. Oh, a mistake!

Like washing your whites and colors together.
Or like forgetting to pick up cat food.
Or telling your blind date about your hernia surgery.
Or throwing a soda can in the garbage instead of the recycle.
Or lifting with your back, not your legs.
Or picking up the latest Stephen King novel.

You know... mistakes!

[uponit7771]

79. No, like voting against the Brady bill five times. Guns have killed more Americans than IWR

... vote

[Scootaloo]

80. We're talking about the Iraq War Resolution right now, uponit.

You know, that your candidate calls a "mistake," as if it were no more than spending too much at a yard sale.

[uponit7771]

89. We're talking about votes that were a mistake, one of them were Hillarys 5 of them were Sanders

... and none of the candidates can throw a stone

[Scootaloo]

91. The entire thread is about the Iraq War resolution, uponit.

So. Can you talk about this subject beyond bland apologetics that have the (perhaps unintended?) effect of writing off and dismissing the lives of millions?

[uponit7771]

92. Yes, I can.. Hillary made a mistake and admitted it ... sanders hasn't admitted shit

[Scootaloo]

96. As I noted... it's not a "mistake."

A mistake is spilling your coffee on your keyboard.

Going into a devastating war, with eyes wide open? That's not a mistake. You can't just go "oops, oh well, elect me anyway"

[AgingAmerican]

93. Nobody died from the Brady bill not passing

nt

[uponit7771]

95. People have died due to help of Sanders bad gun stances in America

[AgingAmerican]

97. Nobody died from the Brady bill not passing

Sanders agrees with every measure in Obama's gun control package after Sandy Hook. You are blowing smoke out your ass.

[Motown_Johnny]

5. Our opinions have "evolved". That is what thoughtful people do you know.

We have taken in more information and have made a more informed decision. We don't just make up our minds and then that's the end of it. Only Republicans do that.

Sound familiar?


If the person you want to be the leader of the Free World can pull this shit, then so can a bunch of anonymous nobodies posting on a echo chamber of a message board. Or do you hold her to lower standards than you do us?


Besides that, we didn't really have a candidate who opposed Iraq in 2004. Howard Dean is about it and he blew himself up with that crazy yell of his. He was the front runner for a while. Bernie supporters have even been compared to Dean supporters, as if it were somehow a bad thing.

Anyways, it isn't 2004. We didn't know just how stupid that 2002 vote was at the time, but we do now.

P.S. I am not saying that her vote disqualifies her to be POTUS. Not even the vote plus the 19 minute speech she gave in favor of it does that. Not even when you add in the valor theft that was her claiming to have run from Snipers in Bosnia. I don't think she is disqualified from being POTUS, not even after all of that. Even the no fly zone in Syria which she supports on top of that doesn't make me think that she is disqualified. It just makes me want someone who doesn't make such bad decisions. It makes me want Bernie.

[JDPriestly]

35. Actually, this is not true.

" Howard Dean is about it and he blew himself up with that crazy yell of his. He was the front runner for a while."

Howard Dean did not blow himself up. A hostile, conservative media blew him up. As we have seen since the trumped up "scream" lie, Howard Dean is a very reasonable man who would have made a great president.

We allowed the press to blow up Howard Dean's campaign.

We are not going to fall for that with Bernie. That is why we have a serious problem about CNN's handling of the coverage of the debate results following the debate.

We re not going to let the Dean trick work this time.

Bernie is our candidate and we are going to stick with him.

[Motown_Johnny]

73. Agreed, I oversimplified that point

because it was not really the focus of the thread, or even my post.

[Luminous Animal]

7. I voted for Jill Stein. Fuck the war mongers.

[cprise]

62. Yeah, I changed to (I) and voted for Stein in the general

But I was not in a swing state.

[SidDithers]

76. You voted for Jill Stein instead of Obama?...nt

Sid

[Fawke Em]

87. I think they mean instead of Kerry. n/t

[SidDithers]

98. In 2004, Jill Stein was running for State Congress in Mass...

Her only Presidential campaigns have been 2012 and 2016.



Sid

[Luminous Animal]

112. Yes. I did. And I voted for Nader instead of Obama.

I am a Green Party member and I have been for a long time and I (gasp) support my party when I think my party's candidate is the better choice. I also support Democrats and have campaigned for many of them for local, state, and federal office (Barbara Lee.. swoon!). In fact, I volunteer during every campaign cycle, sometimes in San Francisco, where I live, and sometimes in the East Bay. Sometimes I campaign for the Democrat OVER the Green Party candidate.

This cycle, I am volunteering for a Democrat running for supervisor. The election is in November. And when that is over, I will put my efforts and talent towards electing Bernie. A Democratic candidate for the Presidency.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

100. Me too. And, she's running again.

[BlueStateLib]

8. 60 Words And A War Without End

"That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons in order to prevent any future act of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations, or persons"

Congress voted to give the president this broad power to authorize force on Sept. 13, 2001, just two days after the attacks. California Rep. Barbara Lee, a Democrat, was the only person — out of both the House and Senate — to vote against it, despite its potentially broad implications.

“I said, 'This is too broad. It’s not definitive.' It was open-ended,” Lee told Radiolab. She wanted to show unity with the President but worried about the ambiguity of the AUMF.

“This is the legal foundation for everything the U.S. has done from Guantanamo Bay to drone strikes to secret renditions to Navy Seal raids. It’s all been hung off these words. One lawyer, who was in the Bush administration, said 'Look, this sentence is like a Christmas tree. All sorts of things have been hung off of this,'" said Gregory Johnsen, Buzzfeed's inaugural Michael Hastings Fellow and the author of "60 Words And A War Without End: The Untold Story Of The Most Dangerous Sentence In U.S. History," which inspired the podcast.

[ohheckyeah]

17. I thought Bernie

voted against it but this says only Rep. Barbara Lee was the only one in both the house and Senate to vote against the authorization. Which is it?

[eridani]

22. That was the Afghanistan war. Even Kucinich voted for that n/t

[ohheckyeah]

64. I'm not

sure what Kucinich has to do with anything. I was asking for clarification because of the confusion of the article.

[JDPriestly]

37. Berme has repeatedly stated correctly that he voted for that 2001 authorization for the War in

Afghanistan because Bin Laden and Al Qaeda attacked us from Pakistan.

The Iraq War Resolution that Bernie voted against was in the fall of 2002.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution

I corrected this misunderstanding on the part of the poster to whom you are responding but apparently this misinformation continues to be spread on DU.

Bernie voted against the War in Iraq and for the War in Afghanistan.

Bernie has explained that he believes we should always try to negotiate before going to war but that he believes that war can be justified if we or our allies are attacked or if there is a genocide.

Remember that Bernie's family is Jewish and Bernie is quite aware of the Holocaust. He is not at all costs a pacifist. He does believe in self-defense and the defense of others.

The Afghanistan War fit his criteria; the Iraq War was a war of aggression and did not fit.

Here is Bernie's statement when he voted No on the Iraq War Resolution.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/video/flashback-rep-bernie-sanders-opposes-iraq-war

Hope this clarifies these facts.

[ohheckyeah]

63. Thanks -

The way that article was written was confusing. I did research and one article said he voted for the Iraq war.

[ohheckyeah]

70. You might want to change Pakistan to Afghanistan in your first

sentence. You wouldn't want to spread misinformation.

[treestar]

26. If that's how it was worded

how did anyone vote against it? 911 gave Bush so much political capital it isn't even funny. Everything was "national security" then for that reason.

[JDPriestly]

38. There were two war resolutions.

The first was in 2001 and it was a war resolution concerning Afghanistan. Bernie voted for that because Al Qaeda and Bin Laden attacked us from Afghanistan.http://www.sanders.senate.gov/video/flashback-rep-bernie-sanders-opposes-iraq-war

The second was the Iraq War Resolution in the fall of 2002 and Bernie voted against it. Here is Bernie's explanation as to why he voted against the Iraq War Resolution.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/video/flashback-rep-bernie-sanders-opposes-iraq-war

Here is information about the 2002 Iraq War Resolution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution

I explained this to the poster to whom you are responding, and I hope he now understands the difference between the two resolutions and why Bernie voted for the 2001 resolution but not the 2005 resolution.

It is unfortunate. We all make mistakes. I hope that the poster will take down that post.

[ohheckyeah]

67. No,

they didn't attack us from Afghanistan. The 9/11 attackers were mostly from Saudi Arabia.The others were from the United Arab Emirates (2), Egypt and Lebanon.

Has anyone ever really won a war against Afghanistan?

[KingCharlemagne]

86. The Bush Junta cynically and cravenly used 9-11 as a pretext by

which to take sides in an internal Afghan civil war. The US backed the discredited Northern Alliance to our eternal ignominy and shame.

[Fawke Em]

88. True, but the funding came from bin Laden and the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Not all, of course, which is why there are pages from the 9/11 Commission blacked out in reference to Saudi Arabia and other counties we consider "allies."

Mustn't mess with the propaganda, now.

(Not you - I mean the media)

[JDPriestly]

39. We discussed this before. There were, as I explained on another thread, two war resolutions.

The Iraq War has nothing to do with the 2001 terrorism war resolution.

Bernie voted for the 2001 resolution because the terrorists attacked us.

It is the 2002 Iraq War Resolution that Bernie voted against.

The first was in 2001 and it was a war resolution concerning Afghanistan. Bernie voted for that because Al Qaeda and Bin Laden attacked us from Afghanistan.http://www.sanders.senate.gov/video/flashback-rep-bernie-sanders-opposes-iraq-war

The second was the Iraq War Resolution in the fall of 2002 and Bernie voted against it. Here is Bernie's explanation as to why he voted against the Iraq War Resolution.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/video/flashback-rep-bernie-sanders-opposes-iraq-war

Here is information about the 2002 Iraq War Resolution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution

[Major Hogwash]

46. Bush had already started the Iraq War in August of 2002.

So, all of this talk about the IWR is pointless.
It is moot.

[JDPriestly]

50. The Iraq War officially started in the Spring of 2003.

The Iraq War[nb 1] was a protracted armed conflict that began with the 2003 invasion of Iraq led by the United States. The invasion regime toppled the government of Saddam Hussein. However, the conflict continued for much of the next decade as an insurgency emerged to oppose the occupying forces and the post-invasion Iraqi government.[49] An estimated 151,000 to 600,000 or more Iraqis were killed in the first 3–4 years of conflict. The United States officially withdrew from the country in 2011 but became re-involved in 2014 at the head of a new coalition; the insurgency and many dimensions of the civil armed conflict continue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War

The Afghanistan War started in 2001.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_%282001%E2%80%9314%29

Preparations for the Iraq War were underway early on even being discussed in 2001 according to the book about the Bush Secretary of the Treasury called the Price of Loyalty.

As we now learn from the Hillary e-mails, Blair and Bush agreed to pursue war in Iraq in the Spring (maybe April) of 2002 but the Iraq War Resolution was not passed until the Fall of 2002 and the Iraq War did not officially start until the Spring of 2003.

I was working very long hours in that period and heard snippets of Colin Powell's UN speech on my way to work one morning so I did not follow the news carefully -- reading the LA Times which printed outright lies about Iraq and did not realize to what extent Bush was lying right away.

In April of 2004, during the Kerry campaign, Vanity Fair published an excellent expose that debunked among other things the evidence regarding WMDs in Iraq.

Keryy was already a candidate pretty much at the time that article was printed.

[ohheckyeah]

66. Actually the 9/11

terrorists weren't from Afghanistan. They were mostly from Saudi Arabia.
The others were from the United Arab Emirates (2), Egypt and Lebanon.

[msongs]

10. aided and abetted by all those vermont reps and senators who have voted for military funding

since then - voting to fund the military perpetuates bush 2, and now obama's wars

[SwampG8r]

59. What I get from your post is

You equate sending people.stupidly to fight a totally stupid war with making sure the soldiers who have been stupidly sent are unfunded?
You equate starting a stupid war with supplying troops what they need to fight.

[LoveIsNow]

12. I was 14 in 2004.

And I wanted Wesley Clark to be the nominee.

[JDPriestly]

40. Wesley Clark was also my first choice. Too bad.

He was horrified by Bush's war in Iraq.

[Alittleliberal]

81. +1

I was 10. Never supported a warmonger. Never will.

[Fawke Em]

84. Me, too.

I was "Clarkie" on this board back then.

In fact, I got TSed for saying Kerry's Iraq War vote disqualified him for me. It was after he was the nominee, so I was in violation, I realize.

So, I guess I could prove I said it if I could find it.

I came in as something else (Scoop-something - don't remember) during the forgiveness period, but lost that log-in after moving and changing ISPs (thus email addresses, so I couldn't ask for it), but I was rather busy with a newborn during the primaries in 2007-2008, so I wouldn't have been here much, anyway.

P.S. I did end up holding my nose and voting for Kerry, but only because Bush was HORRIBLE. Not that it mattered. My state is die-hard red.

[Scootaloo]

13. Over a million Iraqis are dead, McCamy. many, many more are refugees

Untold numbers have been bent, broken, and bloodied in ways that you or I will never know or fathom. We simply can't. Senators Clinton and Kerry had an active hand in delivering that fate to those people. And here you are, standing on the skulls and bodies and playing "gotcha."

I voted for Kerry in the general election 2004. His opponent was George W. Bush, who had a much greater hand in the destruction of Iraq and its people than the Senator did.

But George W. Bush is no longer a feature of our electoral politics. Nor is John Kerry.

[JDPriestly]

41. I liked Kerry in 2004 and voted for him.

I liked Obama in 2008 and 2012 and voted for him.

I worked hard to elect Kerry and Obama and part of the reason was that they were much less evil than Bush or their Republican opponents.

I like a lot of things about the Obama administration, but it could have been and could be a much better administration.

This time, I am voting for the best of the best, Bernie Sanders. I'm not going to vote for the lesser of two evils which would be Hillary vs. some Republican.

If you want to know the difference between that 2001 resolution against terrorism that authorized the Afghanistan War and the 2002 Iraq War Resolution that Bernie voted against, please see my post #39. (I think that is the number.)

It's a little confusing. I have corrected the misinformation being spread about Bernie's vote several times and am hoping that some misleading posts will be removed by their author.

Thakns.

[ohheckyeah]

69. If you are referring to me

I asked for clarification. I didn't attack Bernie or "spread misinformation" - I asked a question.

[Ken Burch]

14. I did. And a lot of others here did.

Dean and Kucinich supporters said it over and over and over again.

It wasn't current Bernie supporters giving Kerry a pass on his IWR vote.

And it didn't matter that Kerry said HE wouldn't have used the authority to go to war...he KNEW, and HRC KNEW, that Bush would. Dim Son had made it clear that he would take passage of the IWR as a mandate for war. There was never any ambiguity about Bush and Cheney's intent.

[cprise]

48. Yes, it caused a big rift and expulsions from this site.

The ones supporting the anti-war candidate were the ones who were booted.

[Ken Burch]

15. Trick challenge on your part.

It's extremely difficult to trace posts we made in the 2004 version of DU.

If we assert that we did call Kerry out on his IWR vote(which happened in thousands of posts on DU that year), and can't find the actual links, will you assume we are lying?

If so, why?

[KingCharlemagne]

90. OP is playing Gotcha! with the blood of 1000000 dead

Iraqis dripping from his candidate's hands.

My, aren't the Hillary supporters a classy group?

[Admiral Loinpresser]

16. My wife was a Dean delegate in the 2004 convention.

She could not stomach voting for Kerry on the floor of the convention. So she gave her floor pass to an alternate who did vote for Kerry. We went to a bar in Boston close to the convention and lamented that Bush would be elected because a bunch of sellouts like Annie Oakley, Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt, Biden and other Republican-lite wannabes abandoned principle and didn't give Americans a clear-cut choice.

I said it then and I say it now. Anybody without the character to oppose Bush on the war was not and never will be qualified to be president.

[cprise]

43. I was a Dean supporter, too. What OP is missing...

1. That the anti-war movement didn't pick up steam until some time into Bush's second term. Many of us were drawn to Dean and energized because of his repudiation of the war and his criticism of Kerry.

2. The official hype about the war itself was still dominant... it was still unfolding and people had no actual sense (yet) of it being a disaster. There was a vacuum about casualty info and The Lancet had not yet published its landmark report.

3. Both Kerry and Dean were DLC. Dean was more willing to flout Third Way economics, but his associations were still there.

4. Deaniacs ran into major opposition here from mods and the head honcho. I think mine is one of just a few Deaniac accounts that did not get tombstoned. We migrated our activity to sites like PeopleForChange (a name that used to be verbotten here).

-

The contrast with Clinton is that she thinks a mere claim about being misled will suffice, yet she is still arguably a war hawk --- one who now goes to a Bush neocon (Kagan) for advice and she promoted his wife in the State Dept. Kagan recently wrote a takedown of Obama's foreign policy for being too weak... Clinton then voiced the same criticism against Obama.

She was pushing Obama toward regime-change policy as soon as unrest appeared in Libya and then Syria.

There is also all the other water under the bridge. We are more hard-bitten, poorer now, rattled by disasters and Clinton is still pushing interventionism abroad and free trade treaties! Prices are rising and there is simply less headroom and tolerance for the old evasions and backstabbing of working class people.

There is overall too much flip-flopping and opportunism coming from Hillary. She had real power during Bill's term in the 90s -- like a cabinet member who couldn't be fired and who could fire people -- but we are told we must not judge her for Bill's (often nasty) work. You heard Elizabeth Warren, "there were skidmarks in the halls when she got back" to the White House. Even when she defends Bill's failures, like NAFTA, its supposed to go down the memory hole. Her campaign is lying about NAFTA, just as its lying about TPP.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

58. Very well said. n/t

[Perogie]

18. HILLARY ISN'T JOHN KERRY

lol

[Travis_0004]

19. Kerry wasnt on walmarts board of directors while they fought unions

Is that good enough?

[Spirochete]

20. I voted for Kerry

in the general - not because I'd forgiven him for voting for the war, but because he was running against the one who actually started the war.

[eridani]

21. It's certainly why I didn't support him in the primary

And why I won't support Biden now. The neocons started the war. Dems who did not oppose it are mostly guilty of cowardice. Clinton unfortunately went the extra mile and publicly advocated it.

[moondust]

23. Duelfer Report released Sept. 30, 2004.

Dem Convention July 26-29, 2004.

I don't know how many voters were paying very close attention at the time, but the Iraq Survey Group did not release its final report discrediting the WMD claims until a couple months after Kerry became the nominee. Thus it was still technically an open question during the primaries.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. As a dispassionate observer it is my considered opinion...

As a dispassionate observer it is my considered opinion that none of Ms. Taylor's interlocutors were able to undermine her thesis that certain posters are not consistent when it comes to rendering judgment and forgiving or contextualizing past mistakes, all the sophistry, casuistry and obscurantism not withstanding.

Ms. Taylor, you carried the day... A job well done...

[treestar]

25. +1

At this point, you'd think Hillary and only Hillary was responsible for Iraq.

[djean111]

42. At this point, you would think Bernie was responsible for every gun death.

See how that works?

[JDPriestly]

44. The fact is that we now have a candidate who bravely voted against the 2002 Iraq War Resolution

We should vote for him.

He is also stronger on a number of other issues, especially with regard to the banks, the TPP, which Hillary is being shady about and other issues.

Here is Bernie's speech when he explained why he voted no on the 2002 Iraq War Resolution.

The first resolution was in 2001 and it was a war resolution concerning Afghanistan. Bernie voted for that because Al Qaeda and Bin Laden attacked us from Afghanistan.http://www.sanders.senate.gov/video/flashback-rep-bernie-sanders-opposes-iraq-war

The second was the Iraq War Resolution in the fall of 2002 and Bernie voted against it. Here is Bernie's explanation as to why he voted against the Iraq War Resolution.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/video/flashback-rep-bernie-sanders-opposes-iraq-war

Here is information about the 2002 Iraq War Resolution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution

[ohheckyeah]

72. Except the attack

came from Saudis. So we attacked Afghanistan. Yeah, that was smart.

[virtualobserver]

85. Bin Laden, their "Saudi" leader, was operating from Afghanistan......

Last edited Sun Oct 18, 2015, 05:18 PM - Edit history (1)

Should we have invaded Belgium to look for him?

[ohheckyeah]

102. That would make

as much sense as attacking Afghanistan when the perpetrators were from Saudi Arabia. And Bin Laden was eventually killed in Pakistan. Few countries have ever beaten Afghanistan and none occupied it successfully.

[virtualobserver]

103. Afghanistan was harboring Bin Laden...he only escaped to Pakistan because of Bush

[ohheckyeah]

104. It was stupid and immoral.

The U.S. killed innocent people and sent the military on a wild goose chase to get bin Laden. He was captured and killed by a small force in Pakistan due to intelligence. Why did Sanders trust Bush to attack Afghanistan to get bin Laden? Where was the great judgment?

"We successfully attacked and occupied Afghanistan" said no country ever.

[virtualobserver]

105. When your country is attacked, you need to respond

If you don't agree with that, I can respect that,,,,,who do you support in 2016?

[ohheckyeah]

107. I just don't think Afghanistan attacked us.

A crazt man led Saudis to attack us.

I'll vote for the Democratic nominee in the GE. I'm not really thrilled with anybody running right now so I may just skip the primary. I was leaning toward Hillary but am not totally comfortable with that.

[virtualobserver]

109. That man was in Afghanistan

[TheFarS1de]

106. That is a myth .

Both Alexander the Great and Genghis Khan subverted the area . Then the Indian Raja's took over for a while .Britain tried twice and failed (one of the few examples). The Russian's did not "loose" the war , other factors played into that outcome . It was basically a draw as Gorbachev decided that the cost would be too great and withdrew .

Bin laden had reasons for being in Afghanistan and that is where the target was at the time .

[ohheckyeah]

108. I know the

history, but the Afghanis extracted a large toll and nobody actually won.

[peacebird]

27. Hillary lied about coming under sniper fire at an airport. She is for more outsourcing, & H1b visas

She is against labelling GMOs, against resinstating Glass Steagal, against the $15 min wage, FOR fracking, for Monsanto, against breaking up too big to fail banks. There are a LOT more reasons NOT to vote for Hillary than just her warhawk tendencies!

[orpupilofnature57]

28. + 1000 for Courage and Vision !!!!!!!

[tblue]

32. ^^This^^

The most perfect summation I've seen yet.

[JDPriestly]

45. Thank you.

[djean111]

47. Yup. Maybe Hillary supporters are single issue voters, and obviously they think Bernie's

supporters are single issue voters.

But we are not.

I agree with your whole list.

[uponit7771]

74. Similar can be said about Sanders, none of the candidates can throw stones despite his

... supporters since of entitlement that we all support him.

Some know his record... the positives and negatives, those who don't are still asking

[EndElectoral]

29. Love the Tolstoy quote

"You consider war to be inevitable? Very good. Let everyone who advocates war be enrolled in a special regiment of advance guards, for the front of every storm, of every attack, to lead them all."

- Leo Tolstoy

[JDPriestly]

30. We didn't really have a choice at that time.

Now we have Bernie who was one of the very few who voted against the Iraq War Resolution.

Bernie just has better judgment than either Kerry or Hillary, but he was not running in 2004.

Kerry was the best we had in 2004.

Bernie is the best we have now, and better than Kerry was in 2004.

In situation after situation, Bernie has assessed the facts correctly and voted and spoken out wisely.

Bernie is a real leader.

I like Kerry very much and supported him in 2004, but I do not think that he had the strong leadership temperament that Bernie has.

Kerry is a great guy. Gets along well with people, but he is not as able to get out in front of the crowd and stand on the side of wisdom as Bernie is. Bernie has an exceptional degree of moral courage. Probably more moral courage than any politician in my lifetime although Jimmy Carter had a lot. Obama is up there, but not on the level that Bernie is.

We did not have a Bernie running in 2004.

[bigtree]

31. that was a huge point of contention for many DUers in that election

...Kerry was savaged for his vote here.

One thing that helped him pull himself from under the bus was an explanation which had far more repudiation of his vote than Hillary has ever offered.

[cprise]

49. Seems you joined DU just after all the action. Dean supporters were very passionate. n/t

[cantbeserious]

51. Have Been Ant-War All My Life From the Moment I Could Comprehend Photos Of the Carnage

eom

[TM99]

55. Did not vote for Kerry in the Primary.

I voted Green in the General.

I have not and will not let anyone whether they have a D after their name or not get off the hook for the Iraq War.

[99Forever]

57. Prove a negative?

What a streaming pile of fresh, nonsensical bullshit.

BTW, have you stopped beating your wife?

[PowerToThePeople]

61. I would have voted Hillary in 2004

I would have voted for a pet rock in 2004.

ANYONE but Bush!

It is not 2004 anymore and I am not willing to sell out my standards this year.

[Persondem]

68. You can tell that folks don't like being called out on their hypocrisy by ...

... all the comments that have zero to do with the IWR vote. They are just attempts at distraction.

Doesn't seem like anyone has taken up the challenge of providing evidence of their "disgust" for Kerry.

Nice post. Keep'em coming.

[Scruffy1]

71. Carried signs,organized protests, helped put millions on the street.

When the NY times (intended small cap) got rid of Chris Hedges for telling the truth, which should have been obvious to the most casual of observers, and the Dems mostly laid down to the reality of media war frenzy, when 40% of dems believed that Sadam had something to do with 9/11 the vote was cynical by both of them. Yeah, I voted for Kerry, who I don't care for because there was no other option, but after 50 years of this shit I've had enough. The whole idea of 8 years of another Clinton makes my old blood boil. If Americans are dumb enough to believe anything the media hypes, they deserve to get screwed again. This time around, I will throw my vote in the trash before endorsing another ultra rich crypto-fascist.

[moondust]

75. "he trusted my judgment."

Debate: "Obama hired me for tough global job because he trusted my judgment."

Except that he didn't trust her to exercise good judgment when committing or not committing troops anywhere because that was HIS job and HE had the last word. As President, Hillary would have the last word.

Obama knew that the Clinton name was known around the world for not starting wars and not straining relationships with long-time allies as Bush/Cheney had done. At a minimum, hiring Hillary as SOS was a smart PR move whether she actually did anything or not.

[SidDithers]

77. DU rec...nt

Sid

[Live and Learn]

83. I didn't vote for Kerry in the primary. Enough said. nt

[Android3.14]

94. Blah-blah-blah challenge blah blah-dee blah

All you reveal is the thoughtless reasons you support Her Majesty.

[BuelahWitch]

99. I thought Kerry was a terrible candidate

Didn't caucus for him.
Didn't send him a dime.
Didn't phone bank for him.
Held my nose and voted for him (as I will do if Hillary is the nominee and I am well enough to vote).

Gephardt, Lieberman and Kerry spent the first debate (or forum, whatever) fighting over who was the most like George W. Bush. I said fuck that shit. I supported Dean. My education began a few weeks later (from both DU and progressives in my community). I learned about IWR, DLC and the third way.

[HassleCat]

101. It's just a comparison for me

When evaluating Sanders against Clinton, one voted for the war, and one didn't. I do agree with you it's too early to refuse to vote for Clinton in the general election. That's a serious decision, and should not be made prematurely, nor made on the basis of one issue. We don't even have a hint who the Republicans will nominate, and that would be, or should be, a heavy factor in deciding not to vote for the Democrat.

[Nye Bevan]

110. "I'm going to hold my nose and vote for the despicable warmonger"

said not many DUers in 2004.

[Ken Burch]

111. Actually, said a lot of people, all across the country.

If Kerry had only taken the votes of people who still thought the IWR was a good idea in 2004, the outcome would have probably been something like this:

Bush 38%

Kerry 20%

Third-party Left 42%

There were few, if any Democrats and progressives in 2004 who still thought the Iraq War was just or that Bush could ever be trusted not to invade Iraq by then.

So no, you've got nothing to sneer at people about.

[lawexpert]

113. Hillary did not vote for the Bush Cheney invasion

Hillary Clinton Never Supported the Bush/Cheney Invasion of Iraq: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/05/22/1386838/-Hillary-Clinton-Never-Supported-the-Bush-Cheney-Invasion-of-Iraq

Hillary Clinton did not "vote for war". Listen to her own words before the vote.: http://m.dailykos.com/story/2015/11/06/1445490/-Hillary-Clinton-did-not-vote-for-war-Listen-to-her-own-words-before-the-vote

Sanders voted for the following wars:

Somalia; S.J.Res. 45 (103rd): Resolution Authorizing the Use of United States Armed Forces in Somalia: http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1993/roll183.xml

Sanders voted for the Afghanistan war: To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against those responsible for the recent attacks launched against the United States.: http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2001/roll342.xml

Sanders voted for the Kosovo War: S.Con.Res. 21 (106th): Kosovo resolution: http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1999/roll103.xml

Sanders voted for all kinds of Military intervention: BERNIE'S VOTES FOR WARS, MILITARY AID, AND MILITARY CONSTRUCTION.: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=932256653498448&id=872520466138734&substory_index=0&__mref=message_bubble

Sanders voted for Yemen , Libya, and Syria. Sanders was a cosponsor of the No Fly Zone in Libya: https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/112/sres85

Bernie Sanders backs Obama on Syria war: https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/10/07/sand-o07.html

Sanders expresses reservations about Obama’s deployment of troops to Syria but Sanders still supports Obama against Isis: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/10/30/sanders-expresses-reservations-about-obamas-deployment-of-troops-to-syria/
Bernie Sanders says he would use drones to fight terror as president: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/11/bernie-sanders-drones-counter-terror

Bernie Sanders Wouldn’t End Obama’s Drone Program, Promises To Use It ‘Very Selectively’: http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/08/31/3697175/bernie-sanders-wouldnt-end-obamas-drone-program-promises-to-use-it-very-selectively/

Bernie Sanders on ISIS War Drones and Solutions:

Sanders supports Airstrikes and Special Missions

Compare this record against Hillary Clinton: There is no comparison. Who is the war hawk? Bernie Sanders of course.