why i snapped: i will now vote for hillary in the ge if she is the nom

[restorefreedom]

yes, i have snapped. i have been on this board repeatedly and said i would never never never vote for her. she is a hawk. she is a 1% er. she can't win a ge (imo). i repeatedly risked a hide, an alert, or even getting tossed by saying i would write in bernie. i now intend to vote for the dem whoever it is.

my entire life has been about rescuing and saving animals. the horrifying hormel video not only is sickening in its own right, but it shows the rabid collusion between big ag and the usda. it would get orders of magnitude worse under a republican, esp with a sweep. they would gut the regulating agencies. this would result in even more horrific animal suffering and food products that are not safe.

yeah, i know what some think. they are pigs. so many important issues. why this one. we all have our issue, and they are all different for each of us. and i happen to believe we can concern ourselves with more than one thing. for me protecting animals is part of my religion, my life mission, it is at the core of who i am. in the absence of a viable third party, a vote for the dem is what my conscience requires me to do to live up to my responsibilities. i had previously thought my conscience would not allow me to vote for her...now i understand that it demands it.

i doubt anyone cared when i said i would not vote for her, and perhaps no one cares now. but since this is a discussion board, and since this is a major shift for me, i thought i would mention it. thanks for listening.

namaste

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. I applaud and respect your decision.

Your conscience has spoken and you are wise to listen to it.

Would that everyone had such cogent reasons as you.

Well done!

[restorefreedom]

4. thanks peggy!

as kramer once said to george costanza, the little man(or woman) knows all.

best to listen.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

5. +1 n/t

[Hortensis]

92. A principled position for good reason.

[Andy823]

2. We should all care

Who gets in the WH, and there are a million and on things that republicans will do if they win the WH that would be terrible for this country and everyone that lives in this country. No way in hell should we ever let them win next year, and the way to insure that is for everyone to get out and vote for whoever wins the nomination. I am glad you changed your mind, and I hope more people realize that not voting is not really a good idea, for a whole lot of reasons.

[Fawke Em]

3. Oh, I'm voting. Just not for HRC if she's the nominee.

Hell, it ALWAYS rains on election day here and I still vote.

I'll just vote for an independent and vote Dem down-ticket (if we have any running).

I live in a red state. I can vote for who the hell I please.

[restorefreedom]

8. yes people sometimes forget the downtickets

and they are so important. especially if trump or cruz is in the wh the makeup of congress will be critical.

[Fawke Em]

17. We'll probably not have anyone known running.

We really have no statewide Dems other than Steve Cohen.

[restorefreedom]

19. any chance they can drum up support

before next yr?

[Fawke Em]

26. No. We REALLY don't have any state-wide known Dems.

All of the major cities have Dems as mayors, so one of them might break out in the future, but not by next year.

[restorefreedom]

29. good about the cities, though. nt

[Fawke Em]

32. I've always maintained that it's not a North/South thing.

It's a city/rural thing.

I mean the divide of who votes Dem v. GOP.

Cities are always more progressive and Tennessee's four major cities prove that. My own mayor was the first woman mayor in the state, as well as the first Latina. Nashville just elected a female as mayor. They're BEHIND us and the Eastern side of the state is supposed to be the most conservative!

However, our Dem Party spent the last 12 years trying to push DINO, Third-Way on the populace (think Harold Ford Jr.) and it NEVER works. We need a populist. The state would eat that up with a spoon.

[restorefreedom]

39. i agree that the city/country divide is huge

hmm. i wonder what populist will rise up in that area. sounds like people are ready.

[merrily]

45. The House is projected to stay Republican for quite a while, just based on how

Republicans re-districted after the 2010 midterms and census.

I hope the projections are wrong, but that's what they are.

[restorefreedom]

57. yeah. they cheated and got away with it. nt

[merrily]

60. I'll say "eff 'em," even though I'm not sure what you mean.

[restorefreedom]

70. heh. i meant the slimy repubs

that rigged the districts and drew ridiculous maps to basically steal elections

[Art_from_Ark]

58. My state hasn't voted for a Democratic ticket that hasn't had at least one Southerner on it

since the 1940s.

And the closest presidential election in the state during that time was in 1968, when George Wallace beat out Richard Nixon by about 60,000 votes, and Humphrey was about 10,000 votes behind Nixon.

[demigoddess]

65. the down ticket is important, but so is the WH

and when you vote for the Dem nominee, whoever it is, you are still saying something to the opposition. Sometimes it is important to vote AGAINST. Especially when it comes to people who want to go to war, kill gays, prevent birth control. etc. The world would be horrible if the republicans got a majority in anything.

[tazkcmo]

79. Yes you can.

Even if you lived in a paisley state, plaid, striped, polka dot, pink, orange...you get the idea!

I come from a large family that encompasses the whole political spectrum. While I don't agree with some of my siblings I support their right and all citizen's right to vote their conscience.

[restorefreedom]

6. i hope everyone votes no matter who they vote for

there are so many important races. i always planned to vote for every office. i guess not voting is its own "none of the above" vote. i do believe that c.u. is making it harder to allow candidates in who might generate a lot of interest because the price of admission is just too high for most.

[LiberalArkie]

7. We all have out "days". I have been bouncing from manic to depressive so much the last

couple of weeks, my dog has started to freak out. One moment singing and whistling have a great time and the next time curled up in bed.

[restorefreedom]

11. wow even the dog noticed?

yes this could be a long year for us and our household companions.

[Persondem]

9. Very nice post. Thank you. K & R nt.

[restorefreedom]

10. thx :) nt

[onecaliberal]

12. I can respect that.

[restorefreedom]

14. :) nt

[Kath1]

13. Thank you.

We cannot have a Trump or Carson.

[restorefreedom]

15. hard to believe those are the frontrunners. nt

[Kath1]

21. I know.

I think that is scary.

[restorefreedom]

23. don't want to increase the scare factor,

but i think cruz and rubio have a real shot, too

[Kath1]

27. Can't stand either one of them.

The GOP clown car just has to be defeated.

Our lives depend on it. For real.

[restorefreedom]

30. yes, lives, literally.

i just did a process of elimination and i ended up with trump, rubio, cruz, kasich and maybe carson. and kasich is not likely imo. so that pretty much leaves the lunatics

[Kath1]

38. Lunatics, yes.

Bad for women in particular and bad for the country.

[restorefreedom]

40. and bad for many who support them, ironically. nt

[mythology]

90. I find hard to believe that they are even considered candidates

Much less being frontrunners. Nothing about either of them strike me as presidential.

[restorefreedom]

91. carson will flame out, he has no cred or experience

with all his faults, at least trump can play the "i am a businessman" routine. everyone thought trump was a one hit wonder...kinda fun watching the establishment gop wetting themselves.

[jwirr]

16. Or even a Jeb.

[Fawke Em]

18. Rubio.

It will be Rubio.

[jwirr]

20. Heaven help us.

[Fawke Em]

25. Just be sure and protect your water bottles.

[restorefreedom]

50. i just got that lol. nt

[Kath1]

22. I think Jeb is finished.

But he scares me, too. No way I would vote Republican this GE!

[Luminous Animal]

24. How could it get worse under Republicans? It is already as worse as it can get

under Democrats.

[restorefreedom]

33. it is pretty bad

i just started wondering if their fantasy of gutting all the regulatory agencies came true, what might that look like.

most of them are placeholders now, but they could be completely eliminated.

[SammyWinstonJack]

34. ...

[okasha]

41. Look at the late 20th.

century history of Central America, Argentina, Chile, Uganda, Congo, N. Korea, Namibia, others too numerous to name.

"Worse as it can get? (sic)" Bullshit.

[Luminous Animal]

44. I addressed a specific point presented by the OP. I won't address YOU who tries

to divert.

In case you forgot on your long journey from the OP to your response to me, the topic is massively failure to regulate the meat industry.

[okasha]

54. The thread wandered all over the place.

Your "it" was not clearly related to the OP, and your response reads as a general, not specific statement.

[Art_from_Ark]

61. Well, Chile and Argentina were, in large part, Kissinger's doing

He had a hand in the coup that toppled Salvador Allende in Chile, and supported Operation Condor in Argentina, which led to the kidnapping and often murder of desaparecidos in the 1970s and early 1980s.

[okasha]

66. True.

And Reagan's crime syndicate was heavily involved in Central America; see School of the Americas, Atlacatl Battalion, etc.

Not sure what your point is here.

[Art_from_Ark]

67. My point is, you listed some countries where at one time conditions were pretty miserable

I was pointing out that at least a couple of them probably wouldn't have been as miserable if Kissinger had not gotten involved in them.

[okasha]

69. Again, so?

That has nothing to do with the point I was making, which was that it's a long way from "the worse" it could be in the US at this juncture.

[pnwmom]

59. Everything would get worse under Rethugs. Their mission is to shrink the government

until it could be drowned in a bathtub.

[yardwork]

73. Everything gets much worse under Republicans.

[restorefreedom]

76. yes...they want to dismantle everything for free market. nt

[yardwork]

84. Over the past four decades, Republicans have dismantled regulation and oversight.

The abuses in agribusiness are a direct result of the anti-regulatory hysteria that began among Republicans in the 1970s and continues to this day.

Congress has the most power in this regard. We must take back the House and Senate, and keep the White House. It's the only way to get things back on track.

[restorefreedom]

85. yup, congress will be key to getting eyes back where they are needed. nt

[fbc]

28. Most people who say they won't vote for the other dem are full of it.

Let's say Hillary is a piece of cake and Bernie is a slice of pie. You may have very strong feelings about which one you like better now, but in the general election when your other option is a pile of dog shit, either one will look very appetizing.

[restorefreedom]

35. fwiw, i was thoroughly committed

to not voting for her. it never occurred to me until today that i actually could do it.

no one is more shocked than i am

[Hortensis]

93. You're clearly stronger than many.

[restorefreedom]

94. or crazy, not sure which :) nt

[Hortensis]

95. Lack of certainty can be destabilizing. I know. :)

[restorefreedom]

96. i am relieved that i don't have to think about it anymore

in my mind, its done. now i can focus on bernie in the primaries as well as other races. when it is ge time, then i will shift gears. but as much as i disagree with hrc vehemently on many issues, i feel a sense of peace and absence of angst. weird wild stuff...

[Hortensis]

97. No, I understand. If I could choose my own frontrunner, well out

ahead and very likely to win nomination, it would not be HRC because of things I don't like either; but since it is her I'm downright grateful she's worked so long and hard to become such a strong, capable candidate and glad of the positions we do share well enough. There is real comfort in that.

[restorefreedom]

98. indeed, and well said. nt

[Thespian2]

56. Good...but

When ones calls a Repukkkian a "pile of dog shit," one is being accurate in defining the GodOffalParty,...but is that characterization fair to the dog?

[Martin Eden]

31. I will vote to keep out the Rethug, if necessary

I live in Illinois. If Hillary is the Dem nominee and there is any chance my state could swing to the R, I will hold my nose and vote for Hillary Clinton.

Regardless, I'll vote in all the down ticket races.

[ibegurpard]

36. nothing wrong with thst

So will I. I just hope to hell we are smart enough not to put her up.

[restorefreedom]

46. i hope so too. i think bernie has the best chance in the ge. nt

[MisterP]

37. Clinton suddenly has a pro-pig platform?

[restorefreedom]

42. not that i am aware. but the gop is all about big ag

and they will do everything possible to increase profits for them. screw the animals, screw food safety.

[MisterP]

48. and a policy of treading on their heels while tossing out occasional pro-gay stuff ends up where?

plenty of Western Dems are running around shrieking that any photos are "food sabotage" or whatever

[restorefreedom]

49. yes the dems in big ag states are not likely

to be allies in that regard. since big ag and climate change are on a collision course, will be interesting to see where some of these dems end up.

[okasha]

43. She and Sanders both

have excellent records on humane issues.

[restorefreedom]

47. good to know. nt

[Jack Rabbit]

64. She's always had a pro-pig problem

Ever since she allied herself with Legs Dimon and Pretty Boy Lloyd.

[Bread and Circus]

51. I share your horror. I personally care a lot about this issue too.

[restorefreedom]

52. its like i said. i realized how horribly horribly bad the gop is on this issue

and i just snapped. just like that. and i have a special place in my heart for pigs. this is beyond awful.

[Bread and Circus]

53. Well I didn't need that to remind me of the callousness and horrors of the RW... but all the same

I think this is an atrocity and it breaks my heart.

I am glad there are others here who share in that.

[restorefreedom]

55. i have "met" several here at du.

i am encouraged by how many more people care about this than when i started many years ago.

[F4lconF16]

62. Perhaps this thread might enlighten some people about why

PoC still support her despite her general neoliberal/neoconservatism.

Good to know. My conscience feels the same about that issue as it does about the others. You probably know where I stand on Clinton.

[restorefreedom]

77. i understand. and the hawkish stance is why

i still have trouble with the idea of a clinton presidency. it is one of my main issues. but i wondered the other day whether a clinton war or a repub led war would cost more lives. they would both be awful, but since clinton has said iraq was a "mistake" and she has adopted more liberal positions on things, we can hope that some of the people she hires will have enough sense to advise her about the true costs of war. repubs would go in screaming like lord of the flies.

[Jack Rabbit]

63. Thank you for your deeply personal insight

If Hilarty is the nominee, I will probably end up holding my nose and voting for her, against my better judgment. However, don't ask me to give any time or money to her.

It will be a vote against the GOP nominee, whoever it is. They all suck. Hillary sucks, too, but they even worse than she does. I will continue to oppose neoliberalism, which I expect to be her touchstone for all policy decisions. Neoliberalism is crony capitalism, institutionalized bribery and imperialism all rolled into one. It's a terrible way to govern a country. I will continue to fight against the terrible trio of trade deals presently under consideration. I will continue to fight for the right of all human beings to living in a clean environment and a sustainable economy with social justice for all, which necessarily means advocating the supplanting of fossil fuels with renewable sources of energy, revitalizing labor unions and reforming the banking system, part of that program being the reinstatement of the Glass-Steagall Act.

Even with Hillary Clinton -- or even a real loser like Donald Trump -- in the White House, I will continue to believe another world is possible.

[restorefreedom]

78. i also believe another world is possible

even glimpses of it in our lifetimes. i do believe that win or lose, bernie has opened the toothpaste tube, and there will be no putting it back. too many people are now aware of the obscene collusion between pols and the uber rich. they are looking for answers and solutions. and they are not prepared to swallow the same bullshit sandwich that has been fed to us for years and years. i think thst we will make progress in all the things you mentioned. bernie has lit the fuse, and the fire will not go out this time. people want change.

[Beartracks]

68. THIS > "conscience would not allow...now i understand that it demands it"

Right on, restorefreedom! I'll vote for whichever Dem gets the nomination, too.



Even if someone truly feels that Hillary is the lesser of two evils, then it is still one's duty to prevent the worse scenario. If you have to vote FOR Hillary in order to vote AGAINST the Republican, THEN DO IT.

That little voice telling you that "not supporting" Hillary in the GE by not voting for her, is a cool, rebellious, conscience-soothing thing to do -- that voice is not your friend.

Would you seriously intend to keep showing up at DU to bitterly complain about the dismantling of Democracy during a Carson or Rubio Administration -- a regime you helped to bring to power by not voting against it?? At that point, no one's going to care much that, at least you didn't vote for Hillary.

Look, I get it. The corporatocracy would be quite happy with a Clinton Presidency. But would you, and your family and friends, and your coworkers, and your planet, be happier with the draconian, anti-education theocracy that is the alternative?

Sometimes -- okay, way too much of the time -- politics really is about choosing the lesser of two evils. So you must vote for the candidate that is CLOSER to you across all issues, even if that candidate is far from perfect. There's a reason this cliche exists: "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good." Despite any faults Hillary has as a person or as a candidate, she'd still accomplish a lot of good things, too. Can you say that about any of the Republican candidates?

So stump like hell for Bernie or O'Malley in the primaries. But if Hillary gets the nod, it's not just her that needs your support. It's also the rest of us. Oh -- and also the few progressives and really good Dems in Congress, who don't deserve to be left to the four winds of a resurgent GOP. Oh -- and also the SUPREME COURT, which can expect some new blood from the next President. Never forget that.

We need a (D) in the White House, even if it's a DINO at this time. We all do.



==================

[restorefreedom]

80. i wasn't tryin to be rebellious for its own sake, truly

i have a real issue with her war stance and i remember that i was almost ill after voting for kerry (iwr vote) although i like him much better now as sos. as to du, i expect i would still be here but not necessarily talking politics..other issues. what we really need imo is a healthy three or four party (loosely structured parties) system representing most people along the spectrum. i would also like to see different grouping of primaries and getting rid or changing the ec. and getting rid of c.u. will be a tough fight, but we have to try.

[Beartracks]

86. Sorry, the vent wasn't intended to be pointed at you!

I was directing my thoughts at the proverbial "you" not the restorefreedom "you!"



I, too, have serious concerns about parts of her record, yet still greatly admire other parts. But I have the gravest of concerns about the Republicans getting even more power... so to me, our duty is clear.

And I agree: Kerry is an excellent SOS.

================

[restorefreedom]

88. no worries, i didn't take it that way

and hey if we can't vent here, we are rightly and truly screwed

[olddots]

71. I will still nevervote for her

thankyou for these 11years .goodbye

[RiverLover]

75. olddots

Don't you dare go anywhere.

[restorefreedom]

81. i understand and respect that position

we all need to vote our conscience, whatever it tells us.

peace

[Scuba]

72. As I've said before, if she's our nominee I'll hold my nose really, really tight and vote ...

... against the Republican presidential candidate.

I don't believe she gives our party the best chance to win. In fact, I don't think she can win.


If she's our candidate, Republicans will turn out in record numbers to vote against her while Democrats will have the lowest turnout in presidential election history. Their side will sweep the table.

[restorefreedom]

82. yes i am very concerned about a sweep

I think Republicans will turn out in record numbers to vote against her, and it could cost even more seats in the house and senate. I think Bernie has the best chance to win in a general. As I said another comment, I held my nose to vote for Kerry because of his iwr vote, and I promised myself I would never do it again. but I'm always willing to reconsider as circumstances warrant. It was a hard vote though as this one will be.

[RiverLover]

74. Nothing like voting for a recipient of Tyson campaign $$$ if you care about

the treatment of animals.


Are these chickens life forms, or just a commodity?

http://cdn.thedailybeast.com/content/dailybeast/articles/2015/08/04/hillary-clinton-s-mega-donors-are-also-funding-jeb-bush/jcr:content/body/inlineimage_0.img.800.jpg/47957880.cached.jpg

( ^^^ click for image )

To be fair, he has given a bit more to Bush. There will be a difference. A bit.

[restorefreedom]

83. i am not suggesting that anyone running is a champion of animal rights

but the repubs want to completely gut the regulating agencies such as usda, of course they are already in bed with big ag, but under a rubio or cruz it would get orders of magnitude worse. worse for the animals and say hello to a lot more cases of food borne illness and antibiotic resistant bacteria.

it is a choice between two bad choices. but one seems to be to be much worse on this issue. i would prefer kucinich but that didn't happen.

[Romulox]

87. OP is incoherent; Hillary has not championed animal welfare. nt

[restorefreedom]

89. no she has not. but the gop has tried repeatedly

to dismantle regulation that affects animal welfare and food safety for their buds in big ag.

[RiverLover]

99. What we need are Democrats who give a da*n. (the gop never will) Check out the Dead Pit~

This week, we speak to New York Times reporter Michael Moss about the Dead Pit, a USDA livestock research facility in Nebraska that has caused the deaths of thousands of animals in the name of higher profits.....Originally aired March 19-26, 2015.

Listen here, if you can stomach it~
http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/americas-test-kitchen-radio/e/409-the-dead-pit-the-true-shocking-story-of-the-us-meat-40305082

Also see~
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/20/dining/animal-welfare-at-risk-in-experiments-for-meat-industry.html?_r=0

We need Democrats who are actually Liberal, that's what we need.

[restorefreedom]

100. i fucking hate capitalism. greedy bastards and murderers. nt

[MoonRiver]

101. Thank you!

Animals, and, in some ways, especially farm animals, are the most important issue for me. The environment is right below, but these go hand in hand.

[restorefreedom]

103. yes, me too. animals and climate change.

nice to "meet" kindred spirits..

[MoonRiver]

105. People like you and me are "the voice of the voiceless."

They are so much more important than politics. Very glad to "meet" you also!

[restorefreedom]

107. definitely more important. oh yeah. :) nt

[still_one]

102. There are a lot of reasons to vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is, and I am very concerned

that the republicans will play the 9/11 card, and the American public might be duped again

[restorefreedom]

104. please elaborate.i am curious...you think people will fall for

the terra terra ploy again, all these years later? is this because of what just happened in france?

[still_one]

106. I don't have to elaborate, you just did. This will now become an election issue, and the Democrats

will have to formulate how to deal with with it, and they will have to do it in a unified way with our allies.

[restorefreedom]

108. ugh. that's all i got right now. nt

[still_one]

109. there are no happy or ideal prospects

[restorefreedom]

110. nope..nothing good...all bad. nt