Poll: Hillary Clinton bests Sanders as the Democrats' "change" candidate

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Democratic primary voters think former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, not Sen. Bernie Sanders, is the candidate more likely to bring about change if elected president, according to a new CBS News/ New York Times poll.

Sixty-two percent of Democratic primary voters think Clinton, the current Democratic front runner who served in the Obama administration for four years, could bring about real change in the way things are done in Washington. Fifty-one percent half think Sanders could do the same.







http://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-hillary-clinton-bests-sanders-as-the-democrats-change-candidate/

[Bread and Circus]

1. any of these subtopic polls needed to be weighted vs who those polled support in the first place

If you are not sure what that means let me know.

[VanillaRhapsody]

2. Lalalalala

I can't hear your polls I do not like...

Wait until you finally discover you are in a minority of voters....

[Bread and Circus]

4. I am fully aware Clinton is leading by a large margin the polls

And will very likely win the nomination.

I can accept reality.

You on the other hand, not so sure.

[VanillaRhapsody]

10. What poll am I denying?

I was the only one that was saying for weeks that Sanders was going to HAVE to proclaim he was a Democrat in public because he was't one....or the campaign was over.....to much ridicule from the Sanders supporters and it was even brushed off by Clinton Supporters...

Turns out I was absolutely right....

And you try to say "I" am unaware?

[Hortensis]

103. BUT, about this poll, the respondents may actually

be in tune with reality. In his quarter century in Congress, what great changes has Bernie brought about? Yes, he's done a few things, everyone's done a few things. But the agent for major change supporters like to think he is? No. No yet anyway.

Mark Leibovich in "This Town: Two Parties and a Funeral" quotes Washington Post editor Meg Greenfield in her memoir, "Washington": "Loners may be able to sell themselves electorally at home, but they cannot win in Washington, no matter how bad or good they are. Winning here means winning people over--sometimes by argument, sometimes by crafts, sometimes by obsequiousness and favors, sometimes by pressure and sometimes by a chest-thumping, ape-type show of strength that makes it seem prudent to get with the ape's program."

Let's face it, she's talking about the Bernies in D.C., the ones whose colleagues choose to endorse someone else by the hundreds. Of course, presidents are in a special and more powerful position, to put it mildly, but the fact that he'd never made a real impression on anyone until he took up Elizabeth Warren's banner may be showing in this poll.

[VanillaRhapsody]

104. Yeah...he has 2 claims to fame

naming a Post Office in Vermont...and VA benefits. Wow ....way to stick your neck out for "change"

[JonLeibowitz]

125. Better than wrongly voting for war and representing the interests of the credit card companies

But that's just my opinion.

[Hortensis]

130. But the statement is that the people polled believe HRC would

be a more effective agent of change than Bernie. It doesn't mean you should support her. It's just a statement to discuss. Like, "Oh, yeah? Well, those people are just a bunch of dumb doo-doo-heads."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. Would you please ask my interlocutor

Would you please ask my/our interlocutor to post his curriculum vitae or resume so us plebeians can decide how much weight we should assign his instruction.

Thank you in advance.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. Go patronize someone else.

any of these subtopic polls needed to be weighted vs who those polled support in the first place.If you are not sure what that means let me know.

If I need instruction in interpreting polls I assure you the denizens of this board would be the last group of people I would look. But thank you anyway.

[Bread and Circus]

7. Do you accept my premise?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. It seems a pretty straight forward finding.

Sixty-two percent of Democratic primary voters think Clinton, the current Democratic front runner who served in the Obama administration for four years, could bring about real change in the way things are done in Washington. Fifty-one percent half think Sanders could do the same.

[Bread and Circus]

13. Then you don't really understand what I am trying to say?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. I will respond after you respond to Post #8

I will use the same process that courts use to determine if an opinion qualifies to be an expert one.


Thank you in advance.

[Bread and Circus]

18. So you can't just respond to my premise without me giving you a CV?

Should we all post our CV's on DU before speaking?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. Only

Should we all post our CV's on DU before speaking?

-Bread and Circus

any of these subtopic polls needed to be weighted vs who those polled support in the first place

If you are not sure what that means let me know.

-Bread and Circus[

Only if they hold out themselves out as an expert.

[Bread and Circus]

24. So you don't understand my premise then?

[VanillaRhapsody]

25. I don't think YOU understand your premise...

[Bread and Circus]

26. So you understand it but don't want to directly respond to it?

Does it make you feel uncomfortable?

[VanillaRhapsody]

27. waiting to hear how YOU understand it...

I am quite comfortable....comfy chair and my coffee...how about yourself?

[Bread and Circus]

30. So you don't agree with DSB my premise is self evident?

Do you want me to help you?

[VanillaRhapsody]

32. Do you?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. He's patronizing you as well, now.

[VanillaRhapsody]

56. I know....

I love how Sanders supporters think they are smart...simply because they support Sanders!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

61. It is an interesting dynamic...

What happened to the old saw, "that self recommendation is the least effective form of praise" ?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. You patronized me right out of the box...

any of these subtopic polls needed to be weighted vs who those polled support in the first place.
If you are not sure what that means let me know.

You post your education in the field of social science and social science research and I'll post mine, fair?

[Bread and Circus]

33. So you do understand but just don't want to respond and would rather make ad hominem attacks?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. Your first response to me was an ad hominem attack when you patronized me , remember?

any of these subtopic polls needed to be weighted vs who those polled support in the first place

If you are not sure what that means let me know.

-Bread and Circus

[Bread and Circus]

39. Do you not believe I was being earnest?

What part of my first response would lead you to believe I wasn't being earnest? Do you not see I was giving you the benefit of the doubt?

And why after all this have you not addressed what I hinted at in the first place?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. I believe you were trying to be patronizing.

IMHO, my thread upset you and you patronized me as a way to give voice to your uneasiness. That's okay. Your associates were upset at my posting of the thread too and lashed out in other ways, often with me as a target.

[Bread and Circus]

55. I am sorry you were offended. I apologize. Would you like to respond to my premise now?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. Democratic primary voters believe Hilary is more likely to bring about change if elected president

EOM

[Bread and Circus]

58. I have given you plenty of opportunities to truly respond, why don't you?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. Asked and answered. This thread is really causing you consternation, isn't it?

EOM

[Bread and Circus]

62. Do you think you actually provided a real honest response to the premise?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

64. Veracity is my calling card./nt

[Bread and Circus]

67. I feel you are just squirming around something you don't want to admit. Why?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

70. Admit what...My inference is that Dems believe Hillary is more likely to get things done.

That would have been a better question.

Which candidate is more likely to get things done?

[Bread and Circus]

73. Why don't you just answer the question?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

76. Which question?

EOM

[Bread and Circus]

77. Why do you avoid addressing the original premise and keep squirming around?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

78. I answered your question. Do you have another one?

EOM

[Bread and Circus]

83. Do you think just copying and pasting what you already wrote adequate discussion?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

84. I answered all your questions. Now you are just badgering me.

EOM

[Bread and Circus]

86. Are you uncomfortable with me asking questions?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

91. Not necessarily.. It is kind of entertaining to watch you try to get an alterable response.

EOM

[Bread and Circus]

93. I just thought you liked the attention, love. Do you want me to stop?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

94. Veracity is my calling card. I like to see my threads at the top of the page.

EOM

[Bread and Circus]

97. Hopefully for the right reasons?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

99. Any reason... Any publicity for my brand is good publicity.

EOM

[Bread and Circus]

102. Your brand?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

105. Like Apple, Microsoft, and starbucks

EOM

[Bread and Circus]

106. So you have a brand here in DU? A brand?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

108. Like NIKE, Adidas, and New Balance

EOM

[Bread and Circus]

110. Do you realize that sounds a wee bit arrogant?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

112. Like Oprah and Ellen

EOM

[Bread and Circus]

114. You sound silly are you being serious?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

116. Like LeBron James, Michael Jordan, and Magic Johnson

EOM

[VanillaRhapsody]

35. Pot meets kettle!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. Who would have thought this thread would be the source of such consternation ?

Of course, we know there are other factors at play.

[VanillaRhapsody]

48. Oh yeah....

"a woman running the country? Hell Nah!"

[AgingAmerican]

138. When they feign ignorance

It is because they cannot refute the premise. It's what they do.

[Bread and Circus]

140. Apparently.

[Bubzer]

100. It's also missing a margin of error, which given the small sample size would be rather large.

[peacebird]

3. Of course she bests him on CHANGE, it's what Camp Weathervane is best known for!

She's been changing her positions to sound like Bernie & Elizabeth all year.... Too bad she'll 'evolve' back to her WallStreet friendly coroporatist ways if nominated. Also too bad the only thing she's stayed steady on is being a warhawk.

[Art_from_Ark]

9. This ^^^^^

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. Thank you for your input and may the rest of your life be the best of your life.

[peacebird]

14. And yours as well!

[VanillaRhapsody]

29. Perhaps unlike him....

she listens!

Oh and by the way....you must be talking about someone else.....because lord knows...you haven't read the public record.

http://ontheissues.org/Hillary_Clinton.htm

[Dawgs]

42. That chart is so fucking funny.

Thank you.

[RiverLover]

45. ....

[NBachers]

92. My favorite part is the mirror-image pictures.

[upaloopa]

51. That's about the limit of the anti Hillary memes isn't it. Corporatist and war hawk and weathervane

I was hoping some Bernie person would be a little more creative. Those memes are so old and time worn they aren't fun to read anymore.

Come on get a little original and spice this primary up some more. Obvious by the poll 61% do not believe those old memes.

[peacebird]

52. I could go with "we came, we saw, he died", or sniper fire at the airport if you prefer?

[Bubzer]

98. What you call memes I call facts. If you think they're not true, please provide evidence.

[upaloopa]

117. That is so like right wing tactics

Throw out bull shit talking points then tell somebody to defend against them

[Bubzer]

118. You're deflecting. Do you have evidence to the contrary or not?

By the way, Dems dislike Corporatists and war hawks and flip floppers... the right wing, on the other hand, likes all those... since they benefit from them.

In other words, none of those detractions originate from the right wing. They come from dems who're critical of hillary... but please feel free to post any evidence you have to the contrary.

[upaloopa]

128. There is no need to expect people to play your games

[Bubzer]

129. Expecting a reasonable level of proof before accepting a challenged statment is a game?

You're the one being directly challenged here... not people.

Attacking the arguments being used against your candidate, and expecting to not be asked to justify those attacks leaves you with a very weak position.

You don't have to provide proof... but I wont take you seriously otherwise. If you're okay with that, then we've nothing more to discuss.

[upaloopa]

131. Look if you come here and make a bull shit statement

it isn't somebody else's job to prove it is bull shit.
It deserves to be ignored

[Bubzer]

132. We're not talking about sombody else. The statement was directed at YOU... Because YOU posted BS.

You're the one claiming that Hillary's well know status as a corporatist, war hawk and flip-flopper is nothing more than a meme. So, you're the one with the burden of proof. You are right, your comment does deserve to be ignored... but I thought I'd give you an opportunity to back up your statement.

[BainsBane]

142. The GOP will bring change

If that is your standard.

[mmonk]

6. Polling Democratic Party voters just shows

how uninformed many are. Bernie's positions are the furthest from the status quo through any intellectual measure.

[BlueMTexpat]

19. While I agree with your premise about Bernie's

positions being the furthest from the status quo, the poll seems to be less about the positions themselves than about which candidate will actually be able to implement the positions s/he espouses.

[Fumesucker]

20. Being able to implement and being willing to implement are two quite different things

[NurseJackie]

23. It's his demeanor.

I don't like it, and apparently a lot of others feel the same way I do.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. Do you think his demeanor is rubbing off on his supporters, Nurse Jackie?

They seem to treat me unpleasantly.

[NurseJackie]

121. Hmmm.... I don't think Bernie's demeanor is "rubbing-off". Instead …

… I suspect that many of the most grumpy ones were already like that to begin with. Perhaps Bernie's demeanor has made them feel more comfortable in displaying their true selves. It appears those social norms have been discarded, and one's normal internal-filters and self-control now play no role in their behavior.

So, with regard to many (not all) of them, he didn't "make" them that way, nor did he "change" them to be anything different that what was already lurking beneath the surface. Instead, he allowed them to be more comfortable with letting it all hang out and with an anything-goes approach.

I think it's interesting to note that so many of Bernie's supporters become disproportionately outraged when their behavior is returned in-kind. Even the mildest snark or humor is met with despair and overreactions and swarms of indignant self-righteous alerts. I often wonder exactly what it is they are expecting?

If that subset is expecting it to improve Bernie's poll numbers, or if they're expecting to change people's minds, then it's obviously not working very well. I wonder if they'll realize that and try to figure out what they could be doing differently that would produce better or more desirable results.

Many of them appear to be more interest in drawing battle-lines and digging trenches, instead of building bridges and opening lines of communication.

(PS: Don't let them get to you. I think you're great.) <3

[DemocratSinceBirth]

124. "(PS: Don't let them get to you. I think you're great.) <3 "

Thank you.


I believe a lot of what you discuss is a function of their absolute moral certitude...Folks who believe they have a monopoly on moral certitude make me uncomfortable. I am proudly heterodox and eschew all forms of orthodoxy. That's why I am a small (l) liberal.

[LovingA2andMI]

66. Now it's Bernie's "Demeanor"....

What will it be next week? His age, hair, like of blue shirts, the suits her wears or the fact he flies coach on the plane?

[NurseJackie]

87. Not just "now" ... ALWAYS. That's been the biggest thing that has always turned me off about him.

And yes, since you brought it up ... his wash-and-wear polyester suits and un-ironed shirts and uncombed hair are also off-putting as well. It's not exactly the proper image that commands respect as a world leader. There's a certain level of gravitas that one should expect from a world leader, and their grooming and personal presentation is part of the entire picture. He's clearly lacking in that area.

[justhanginon]

69. Thank you.

If I want to see a curmudgeonly old man I just have to go and look in the mirror. Since I live alone, my occasional yelling doesn't bother anyone.

[LovingA2andMI]

79. Age Discrimination Much....

WOW, just wow --- "curmudgeonly old man"....

[justhanginon]

85. I'm 79 years old and still, hopefully, have at least some semblance

of a sense of humor about aging. And please stay off my damn lawn!!!

[NurseJackie]

89. Hypersensitive much?

Actually he IS old. Calling it "age discrimination" when someone points it out doesn't change that fact.

It's pretty clear that the objection here is that he comes across as a grumpy coot. That won't play well on the world stage. I'd find it to be a bit embarrassing.

Policy-wise, he scores within 2% points of Hillary in an online "who's your match" quiz I recently took. So in that regard, I have no big issues. It's just that I have serious doubts as to how someone with his surly demeanor would be able to be persuasive.

If everyone is laughing at him behind his back, and rolling their eyes when he walks off of Air Force One looking like he just woke up from a nap in his Lay-Z-Boy recliner, he won't be successful.

[LovingA2andMI]

109. Jumping in on a thread that did not include you in the conversation much?

And this....Well, WOW, just WOW --- maybe stepping away from the keyboard might be BEST for ya....as its obvious you have not been at DU long enough to do know might have went a wee bit over the top with this....

If everyone is laughing at him behind his back, and rolling their eyes when he walks off of Air Force One looking like he just woke up from a nap in his Lay-Z-Boy recliner, he won't be successful.

[NurseJackie]

111. "Private" conversations should be by email or

by private messages. What exactly were you expecting to happen on a public thread?

If people object to others participating, or if honest observations and difference of opinions are so distressing, then "stepping away from the keyboard" might instead be good advice for them.

[NurseJackie]

122. PS: By the way. Look upthread. It was YOU who responded to ME, originally. (Remember?)

See post: 66. Now it's Bernie's "Demeanor"....

I did not harangue YOU for "jumping in" on a subthread that didn't originally include you. Why would I? What a silly thing for anyone to get so upset over!

[Freddie Stubbs]

113. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

On Fri Nov 13, 2015, 11:18 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Hypersensitive much?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=802545

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Age discrimination, no matter what our feelings, thoughts or ideas are about a candidate for POTUS or the cross-promotion of such there of, should not be tolerated at DU.

The two examples:
"If everyone is laughing at him behind his back, and rolling their eyes when he walks off of Air Force One looking like he just woke up from a nap in his Lay-Z-Boy recliner, he won't be successful."

And this one is worst, same thread and really below any standards for DU:
"And yes, since you brought it up ... his wash-and-wear polyester suits and un-ironed shirts and uncombed hair are also off-putting as well. It's not exactly the proper image that commands respect as a world leader. There's a certain level of gravitas that one should expect from a world leader, and their grooming and personal presentation is part of the entire picture. He's clearly lacking in that area."

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Nov 13, 2015, 11:29 AM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: While I abhor the argument, it needs push back, not hiding. The same can be said about Hillary's pants suits and her often appalling hair. Degrading statements about candidates based on appearances is below the belt but not grounds for a hide.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It is not "age discrimination" to point out the advanced age of someone might be a problem...not pointing it out with Reagen led to two years of a rudderless
Presidency.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Yes,this is all ageist bullshit designed to antagonize and disrupt, like virtually everything this person posts. MIRT needs to take a careful look at this poster.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I don't hide much, but that last paragraph fits the bill of hurtful and rude to more than just Bernie supporters.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[LovingA2andMI]

127. Yes,

It was alerted, as it should have been. The end result was REAL CLOSE -- which should tell the poster something -- but its doubtful considering the tone overall in this thread. Sad to see. Real sad.....

[NurseJackie]

145. :-)

I need only look across the room. (A cranky coot, but I love him anyway.)

[onecaliberal]

88. Like paying favors back to all the corporations who are paying for her campaign?

[NurseJackie]

90. .

[BlueMTexpat]

107. So all these persons who say they believe that

she is the candidate best able to implement change are corporations? Is that what you are saying?

I'm afraid that your sense of reality and mine do not coincide.

[onecaliberal]

119. And I will sleep soundly tonight with that knowledge.

[BlueMTexpat]

123. Oh, by all means please do. eom

[Freddie Stubbs]

115. Corporations are prohibited by law from making contributions to federal campaigns

If you have evidence of any corporations doing so, you really should contact the Justice Department.

[onecaliberal]

120. Surely you're not that naive.

[berni_mccoy]

16. She's the candidate of change, that's for sure

If you mean changing her mind on issues. She'll make your head spin she flip-flops so fast!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. Thank you for your input and may the rest of your life be the best of your life.

[upaloopa]

54. Now there is a post that is a bit original and not the same old meme but the smilie has lost it's

Last edited Fri Nov 13, 2015, 10:46 AM - Edit history (1)

effectiveness by now. It is used so often and nobody is laughing not even you.

[berni_mccoy]

63. It hasn't 'loast' anything LOL

She spins me right round baby right round.

[upaloopa]

80. I love that song thanks

[onecaliberal]

101. Change your position when corporate masters demand you do so.

[tecelote]

21. Get the message for Change out there!

No matter who the candidate is, we need them to promise Change before global warming and WWIII do it for us.

[gordyfl]

31. The Revolution vs The Evolution

Clinton resists change. Bernie Sanders is the only candidate in either party who seems to feel our politics shifting, perhaps because he’s expected the change for so long.

His battle with Hillary could become epic, forcing not just her but the Democratic Party to choose between the middle class and the donor class; between corporate and democratic rule.

[VanillaRhapsody]

37. HIS battle all right

one he is quickly losing...

She is not the one that had to BECOME a Democrat!

I guess Sanders moved huh?

[retrowire]

36. no bullshit

do you honestly believe this and why?

[VanillaRhapsody]

38. polls

next!

[Rogue Democrat]

43. Not issues?

Very interesting.

[VanillaRhapsody]

50. The question was...do I believe this OP

yes I do...

you asked why....

I answered...polls..

next!

[ibegurpard]

40. It's not a question of ability

It's a question of willingness. Hillary cannot be trusted as an agent of change...unless that change is a march towards further privatization of public goods and services. Her record just doesn't show anything else.

[moobu2]

41. I think a Bernie Sanders presidency would actually be a huge setback

for the good guys.

[Ed Suspicious]

74. Define "the good guys."

[moobu2]

133. The Democratic Party.

[Ed Suspicious]

143. That's strange. I think he's just what the doctor ordered.

. . .for the good guys.

[Cali_Democrat]

47. Makes sense.

Bernie's been in Congress for nearly 25 years.

[LovingA2andMI]

60. 2Pac....

Has been dead since 1996 so, yeah, and, what does 2Pac has to do with Hillary Clinton run for President in 2015/16?

[Robbins]

65. what a joke

Clinton the candiate of the establishment and insider candiate of change

On issues alone Bernie is break from both the Clinton/Obama corporistism and the republicans.

Bernie is the outsider who is consent.Clinton isn't.

[deutsey]

68. +1

[Fearless]

71. Complete bull.

[Ed Suspicious]

72. Lots of talk about perceptions, still little talk about policy.

[coyote]

81. Standard procedure for Hillary supporters

Because they know they cannot defend her on the issues, but she looks "presidential". I guess they are easily fooled by putting lipstick on a pig.

[Geronimoe]

75. Yes, she evolves

Changes all the time, depending on who she is talking to.

[AlbertCat]

82. Well....

...... they already know her name.

And obviously that's about it if they think she's gonna bring change.


Her entire popularity is based on name recognition. It's so obvious.

[Bubzer]

95. No margin of error and no explanation on who was weighted and why.

With 418 unweighted and 431 weighted, anyone could make this poll say whatever they wanted it to say. This is another bad poll. The lack of a margin of error is a dead give away.

[raindaddy]

96. Over 80% of those polled approve of the way the President has handled the ecconomy...

So it looks like whoever participated in this poll wouldn't know change if it hit them in the face.

We're going to have to get used to the idea that the Democratic party doesn't necessarily represent the views liberal voters in this country.

If Clinton does win the nomination and her Presidency doesn't reflect the traditional Democratic Party perspective she's campaigning on we'll see a continuation in the decline of people registering as Democrats.

They'll have to get Debbie Wasserman Shultz to work has hard for the Democrats has she has for the Republicans in the name of saving the illusion of a two party system.

[William769]

134. Kick & highly recommended!

[Todays_Illusion]

135. She will bring the same kind of change the Republicans will bring. and that is why the big money is

so generous to her campaign.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

136. Thank you for kicking my thread and may the rest of your life be the best of your life.

[Todays_Illusion]

144. I appreciate subtlty, done.

[AgingAmerican]

137. The exciting world of 'moderate'

This is so funny

[DCBob]

139. I think this is related to voters thinking that Hillary's experience and political connections...

will help her to get things done. Which I wholeheartedly agree.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

141. Evolution doesn't have a direction. Up/down, Left/Right, Forward/Backward.