How is it that paternity rights remain so entrenched in the Patriarchy

[Tumbulu]

OK, so last night I attended a fundraiser to help pay for the legal fees of a heartbreaking case that was lost. First of all, I am not privy to all the legal issues, not did I participate in any of the court proceedings. So please don't ask me specific questions about if they tried this or that.

What I know is that this wonderful 14 yr old girl in my daughter's ballet group whose mother battled cancer for 5+ years and lost was taken away from her stepdad (who is wonderful and loved and supported by their community) and given to her biological father (who had never paid any child support and who this child had never lived with- who the mother had never lived with either) who lives in another state. Thus this girl was taken away from her home, her school, all her friends and classmates, her ballet group- she was such a lovely dancer, too!- against her wishes. In fact the police had to come and take her as she refused to leave. Her relatives and the community hired a lawyer on their behalf which they lost and an appeal was also filed. But the judges said that their hands are tied.

They say that biological fathers, whether they support their children or not are the legal next of kin and even when the child does not want to live with them they have the legal right to take them against their will.

This judge ruled that this girl now must live with her biological father until she is 18 yrs old. If she runs away and comes back anyone who harbors her will be charged with kidnapping.

I am sorry, how is this horrible vestige of the patriarchy still in place unchallenged? I have heard from lawyers who claim that the biological father is always given custody and that it is living hell to prove abuse....which in this case was one reason the mother never lived with the biological father. And thought that the fact that he never paid child support would matter. It did not.

It was such a sad event and it is a horrifying reality.

[Horse with no Name]

1. After enduring a very long and costly custody battle

this is what I learned very quickly.

Children are still considered property in these proceedings.

None of the custody issues are "about them", only about the people who are fighting over them. The children have no "rights", while the parents sometimes have too many. Whoever coined the term "in the best interest of the child"...clearly has no understanding of what that is.

By the way, this wasn't spoken out of bitterness or anger...we won. That doesn't change anything though. It is what it is.

[Tumbulu]

2. I have heard this many times and so why?

Why are children still considered property? Isn't this a construct of the patriarchy?

[Horse with no Name]

5. Because they don't vote or have lobbyists

They have absolutely no voice in government therefore in the construct of our society, they are invisible. They are simply dealt with as a disposition of the divorce.

We went through a nightmare--because of a biological father that didn't want to pay child support and had more money than brains or decency. The custody battle for my grandchild cost between both parties around $275k, took 3 years of court time and multiple motion hearings, alleged contempt of court violations, temporary order amendments, etc.

Most times when the father chooses to fight, especially a wealthy father, the laws and rules weight heavily in his favor. We just refused to give up and in the end, what was good and right won over the money. It does happen--very rarely though.

[Tumbulu]

7. Oh I am so sorry to read this

how difficult for you and your grandchild. And so much money for the lawyers!

These laws need to be changed.

[dballance]

3. It's because the dicks with dicks wrote the laws

I'd be very curious to know if or how any of the laws that caused this travesty have been changed since women started becoming legislators.

One may be a biological father. But loving and caring on a daily basis, picking up a child when they fall off a bike and mending their scrapes, attending their dance recitals and proudly clapping and proclaiming "that's my child" is really what makes a parent.

I'm very sad for this girl. Since the article states her father had never paid child support I would take that to mean either he didn't care or that maybe he cared but was not financially able to do so (something I suspect of lots of child support delinquents during these bad economic times). In either case I can't imagine it's in the best interest of the child to be placed with him rather than a parent who has been providing and caring for her for some time.

[Tumbulu]

9. Yes, that is really the issue

Last edited Mon Dec 10, 2012, 06:31 PM - Edit history (1)

how do we change these laws to get them out of the age of patriarchy?

I really do not know why he did not pay child support. My guess is that he did not make that much money - he has his own business and chose not to. Hardly unique for the self employed.

[dballance]

12. I don't know why he didn't pay support either

So despite my desire to paint him as an evil, horrible person I reigned in my outrage until I am presented with more facts.

I'm really trying to do that more and not just "go off" on people.

[boston bean]

17. Please avoid using

the word dick/dicks to describe men in this group.

[dballance]

18. Sorry if I offended you

It was an attempt to use a verbal device in an interesting way. Of course, it was also a lot less vitriolic or mean than a lot of what I see posted here and a lot less mean than some of the things I've been called here in response to some of my posts which were completely free of any curse words or name-calling.

I am a man BTW.

[boston bean]

19. What have you been called here, by that I mean in this group?

I am asking you to refrain from using those words to describe men here in this group.

Your post wasn't interesting, it was weak sauce, and seemed rather a challenge, to see what women here would say to you in response. We don't want it in this group, we do not need it.

I am a woman, BTW.

[dballance]

21. Really?

I thought I was trying to point out the horrible travesty of the patriarchal laws and society. Especially in my comments about how biology does not make one a parent and I offered examples of what I think does make a parent.

I don't see how asking the question about if or how laws have been changed since women became legislators is an affront or challenge to women. It was an honest inquiry and I hoped the response to be that a lot of those laws have been reformed in a positive way. You are obviously reading my inquiry in a negative way in which it was not intended. It shows your bias to others.

Now, more directly addressing your statements. I'm not allowed to make a challenge in your group? I'm not allowed to challenge people to discuss or defend their positions whether they are male or female? You don't "need it" in this group? Does that mean you only want sycophants in your group who agree with your every word?

No, your posts are the ones that are weak and uninteresting because you seem to feel I should not challenge you and post in this forum just because you are female.

[boston bean]

22. This post is not anywhere near anything I have discussed with you

in this post, or what I have asked you not to do.

[dballance]

24. So You must be looking for the pony in your room full of BS.

"Your post wasn't interesting, it was weak sauce, and seemed rather a challenge, to see what women here would say to you in response. We don't want it in this group, we do not need it."

That statement was not a challenge to my opinion or implying I don't respect women or my right to post in the forum? Yep, right.

[boston bean]

25. because I agreed with your overall point.

I asked you not to use the words dick/dicks when referring to men.

[sufrommich]

23. Thank you,bean. nt

[FrodosPet]

33. Being a "Father" is easy

All it takes is sperm.

Being a "Dad" is not about sharing DNA. It's about something more important: Sharing love.

[LiberalFighter]

4. Possibly the best solution would had been to terminate the biological father's rights

considering he wasn't paying child support anyway. I would had first started with having the legal proceedings to get child support and continuously getting him thrown in jail. And then give him an out. After that, make sure the step dad adopted the child. Otherwise, there aren't any other alternatives that I know.

[hollysmom]

6. true, if the step dad had been able to adopt the girl, there would have been no problem.

of course, we don't know the details or if this has been a constant struggle with the biological father to begin with.

[Tumbulu]

8. Yes, this is the sort of thing I just don't know about

I just posted what I knew.

I wanted to ask all sorts of questions, but everywhere I went last night people were just sobbing or recovering from sobbing. I was with many people who needed to be comforted for having lost a very hard heartbreaking battle.

[hollysmom]

14. I am sure you did what you could

some times you ask questions and some times you just have to act as needed.

[SheilaT]

10. I also wonder if the mom ever had

a will and the kind of paperwork necessary to make sure the stepdad would retain custody.

This is a sad story, and needs to serve as a lesson to anyone who might remotely be in this situation to take care of the legal details ahead of time.

The other thing that strikes me as a little surprising, is that at age 14 the girl was not allowed to talk to the judge and state her own preference.

There really is a lot here that we don't know.

In a similar vein, too many people do not do what they should to secure their rights in situations like divorce. I was talking the other day to a woman who has been completely passive for a couple of years about divorcing her husband, and I kept on telling her she needs to get a lawyer, she needs to establish various things to protect herself. But she seems to have a naive faith that it will all work out just fine. I would not be the least bit surprised if the next time I hear anything of her situation, she'll be on the losing side of the divorce settlement.

I am not about to suggest that all men are bastards, or all women are castrating bitches, but anyone in anything other than a secure, stable relationship (and even most of those people) need to be completely clear-eyed about their own rights, what their state's laws are about divorce, and so on.

[Tumbulu]

13. The little that I know about this- at least in CA

is that what is in the will makes no difference in terms of where the judge is obligated to send the child. The will can stipulate where funds will go to support the child, but the court cannot rule to send the child to someone other than the biological parent unless that parent is in prison or something along those lines. The court can ask the father to allow the child to reside with the person/people that the deceased parents stipulated in the will, but cannot force that parent to give up rights unless there are criminal issues.

I can only guess that the biological father refused to allow the stepdad to adopt this girl. I do not know in this case. I am not close enough. It just makes my blood boil though as these sorts of laws need to be changed.

I, like you, am amazed that a 14 yr olds wishes were ignored by the court. I had some sort of an idea that by that age the child's wishes would have some weight. She grew up in this town, and was taken away from her entire community against her wishes.

I am sorry for your friend.

I agree with you that there are great and awful and everything in between people of both sexes.

[SheilaT]

16. I realize that we are both dealing with a large lack of

specific information. However, I was under the impression that designated guardians for a child (in this case it would have been the step-father) can be binding. I also recognize that what I'm thinking about is the legal stuff put in place in case both parents die, which was the kind of thing my husband and I had in writing when our children were young. But we remained married to each other until the children were grown.

This sounds like a genuinely sad situation.

[ismnotwasm]

11. The biological father is a complete asshole

All legal proceedings aside. Here is a traumatized child who lost her mother, who is made to live with what sound like essentially a sperm donor who doesn't want to continue to pay child support. I hope that kid finds an advocate in whatever state she's going to.

While I hope this ends well, the selfish actions of the biological father make it extremely unlikely.

My husband got custody of his girls because the mother left them, but there was an older boy, (my husband stayed with first wife through that pregnancy, even though he wasn't the biological father) he could NOT get custody of the boy, the biological father had no interest and the mother gave him up for adoption and subsequently, my two step-daughters have a brother they have never met.

[Tumbulu]

15. It seems that way to me as well

Just sad. I hope that she can make it through all of this. Perhaps there are good things about this man that I do not know.

[d_r]

27. I agree he is acting like a jerk

when your daughter just goes through that sort of loss your job as a parent is to make things as good for them as you can, not to add drama.

[seabeyond]

20. 4 yrs, and she has power and control. unless we are talking an harmful environment,

Last edited Tue Dec 11, 2012, 12:59 PM - Edit history (1)

this is doable. not optimal, but doable. the net allows connections to last. four years. not a lifetime. she can do this.

all you stay connected. see if you can connect with biological father to see if embracing him will allow a chance to work together for the best of daughter. see if people can see this as an advantage to create a relationship with father. important to all kids.

there is opportunity and it is in the adults place to makes this as easy for the girl as they can... in all way, whatever way.

and as you say, this is with very little info.

but, it is what it is. so now it is time to make it so these four years are least painful

anyway.... i have seen it

hence my saying.... four years. anyone can do four years.

[Tumbulu]

29. Well, yes, in fact that is what people are already doing I heard

They were taking turns making trips up to visit her (although the dad is allowing only certain people up and conversations are all monitored and they cannot bring up anything sad....oh my goodness!) and sending letters and calling....but all very monitored and the phone keeps being taken away. All very hard things for people to deal with.

It all seems so cruel to me. But then I do not know his side of the story.

I just resent that a biological father who has not supported the child has this much power and control over here. Sorry, I do think this is from the patriarchy.

[d_r]

26. I'm sorry for this

and its just my opinion, but I don't think this is the result of patriarchy. The same would have been true if it had been the girl's biological mother and a step-dad - the "blood" parent would always win. Even if it was a deadbeat mom.

It might be a result of traditional views of family, but it isn't really "patriarchy."

[southernyankeebelle]

28. If this girl is 14 yrs old she should have the right to say who she will live with. But when the

girl turns 18 there is nothing the natural father can do. She can and could move with her stepdad and her natural father couldn't do anything about it. How sad they couldn't work out a deal between the natural dad and the stepfather. Maybe the girl could of lived with the stepdad during the school year and visit her natural dad during the summer. Then the girl can make up her mind if she wants to continue that relationship.

[missingthebigdog]

30. Are we being fair to bio dad here?

My heart goes out to this child and to all who love her, but you have to wonder what the whole story is here.

If bio dad has provided NO support, and has had NO relationship with the child, why would he even want to parent her now? Why would he be suddenly willing to expend so much energy and money fighting for her? Step-dad seems to be willing to take on the responsibility, so what's in it for bio dad?

It isn't all that unusual for moms to discourage a child's relationship with his or her absent father. This may be what happened here.

On another note, this is why it is critical to pursue the avenues available to you to terminate the parental rights of a parent who is not involved in the care and upbringing of his or her child. It's too late when you are dead or incapacitated.

Most states have statutes allowing for termination when a parent neither contacts nor supports a child for a period of time. Here in Arkansas, it is one year. But you have to petition the Court, nothing is automatic.

[ismnotwasm]

31. He could have worked something out

A 14 year old girl has certain ideas about life. She was given no choice, no right to choose. She doesn't know her biological father. He could have introduced himself into her life a different way.


This is a personal story, if it was something on the news, I would tend to agree with you. The father paid no child support, and I've seen enough Dads (and have personal experience with my step-daughters biological Mom acting the same way) skipping out on relationships to avoid that alone. My best guess is he figured he gets the kid, he pays no support. There is the idea he's been angry and bitter and took this as an opportunity to take control of his child but the way he did it shows a distinct lack of character.

I agree with you on parental termination, but that's a fight in and of itself; perhaps the mother and step-father didn't want to make more waves then they had to.

[Tumbulu]

32. Again I do not know

I am not close enough. I have heard bits and pieces and those bits and pieces do not tell the entire story.

I have spoken to lawyers about this, though, and at least here in CA it is not at all easy to sever the rights of a biological father, at least that is what I was told. The lawyers advise women to make sure not to put the dad's name on the birth certificate. Hmm, who knew?

The point that I am trying to discuss is that clearly this is an issue that needs legal updating.

I think all agree that parenting is about the doing- the staying up all night with the colicky baby, the ear infections, the teaching of the first words and first steps, the picking up from school, the helping with the homework, the providing the meals and homes and nurturing environment. That is it about the real work of it all. Not some legal right to posses someone against their will.

I do know that about this situation, it was against her will and still is.