If Consent Was Really That Hard, Whiny Dudes Would Fail At Every Aspect of Life

[ismnotwasm]

Getting consent through non-verbal and even verbal communication: Even teenagers do it every day. So can you.

I’ve been traveling, but in our new age of fancy mobile devices, I have been able to somewhat keep up with the reaction to the feminist reaction to the force-a-kiss Audi ad. It is, of course, entirely predictable. If I may paraphrase every dudely tantrum: “But consent is HAAAAAAARRRRRRD. Your insistence that men have basic good manners/read women’s body language/ask if you’re not sure to make sure sexual attention is wanted is scary and weird and too HAAAAAARRRRRD. Knowing the basic rules of social conduct is pretty much IMMMMMPOOOOOSSSSIBLE, and thus cannot be a basic minimum in order to flirt/kiss/we’re-not-saying-it-but-it’s-implicated-so-okay-penetrate a woman. Cuz HAAAAAAARRRRRD. Wah.”

Let’s be clear. Despite the claims of misogynists, feminists are not actually asking for a triplicate form to be filled out to have a conversation or kiss or even do the nasty. I’ll quote myself in response to the Audi ad:
All they needed to do was have him come in, have her look at him, have their eyes meet and suddenly she’s melting and he walks up, consent obtained, and they make out.

So, non-verbal consent is fine. Feminists, unlike anti-feminists, believe men are as smart as women and can handle the many communications that are conducted throughout the day with non-verbal communication. But we also understand that sometimes non-verbal communication is a bit unclear. But we don’t demand triplicate copies even so! There’s this thing on your face called a “mouth” and you can push sound vibrations through it to do something we call “ask”. Madeline Davis has examples that even the whiniest of dudes can handle:

http://mobile.rawstory.com/therawstory/#!/entry/if-consent-was-really-that-hard-whiny-dudes-would-fail,51126beed7fc7b56701ac8c5

[Bok_Tukalo]

1. I love that scene in ET where Eliot grabs the girl and gives her a smooch

<OPE>

[ismnotwasm]

2. He was under the influence of Bogey

At the time. Had to stand on a chair too, didn't he?

[redqueen]

3. She is spot on. Those that claim it's hard are simply liars.

Love this:

Since they can manage to get through the day without picking their noses, masturbating in public, and being mauled by animals and/or the cops because of their stated inability to read social cues or understand when and where sexual behavior is appropriate, I am forced to conclude they’re lying when they claim they can’t interact decently when it comes to women. I propose, instead, that they force themselves on women (or at least fantasize about it) because they’re angry with women and want to punish them for daring to think we have a say in who we want to flirt/kiss/have sex with.

Also, this is the first of an excellent if lengthy couple of blog posts re: consent.
http://radtransfem.wordpress.com/2012/01/10/under-duress-agency-power-and-consent-part-one-no/

[seabeyond]

5. sigh... yes. hearing enough of the sing song phrases men have made up over time, it is clear they

get it.

and clear it is a fuckin' game.

again, it is a society that idolizes/glorifies the male sexuality to the absurd.

[seabeyond]

4. Feminists, unlike anti-feminists, believe men are as smart as women

sing it sisTAH. ya know. that is all. lol

[Shivering Jemmy]

6. I don't really understand non-verbal consent.

I'm a man, fair disclosure. But I don't really get how anyone can assess non-verbal consent. I can't even tell when someone is mad at me unless they tell me. Facial expressions all look pretty much alike to me. And frankly, if you look me in the eyes I really just want to look somewhere else. It's paralyzing. I have never been able to tell when a girl (when I was younger) or a woman (now) likes me. I don't think I've ever dated anyone unless they asked me out first. I think I'm a pretty smart guy, so it's not generic stupidity.

I think I probably have some kind of mental or social deficiencies in this area that normal people don't have, so the argument in the excerpt probably doesn't apply to me. But for some of us non-verbal consent (non-verbal anything) *is really hard*. Of course the solution(for me, at any rate) isn't assuming that someone actually wants you in a sexual capacity. It's assuming that they don't and waiting for them to tell you. Or if you really like them, tell them and hope for the best. Worst case scenario is they think you're odd and avoid you (which is like as not to happen anyway). Verbal consent causes the least amount of trouble for everyone.

[MadrasT]

7. I have the same issue.

I can't understand anything unless it is explicitly communicated to me with words. And I take nearly all statements literally. Sometimes I can figure out that it wasn't meant to be literal, but I can't actually grasp what they were "hinting" at. I just know they weren't being literal. This frustrates the crap out of me, and people get frustrated with me because apparently I am not "hearing" what they think they are saying.

I do not read between the lines or pick up signals or anything like that. I wish people would just fucking SAY what they mean instead of hinting around it. People who know me well know they have to be very literal or I will not understand.

Apparently a lot of people do a lot of communicating in ways that are not spoken with words, or by using words that "hint" at things, but it all goes WHOOSH right past me.

It isn't lack of intelligence or education, my IQ is 160+ and I'm well educated.

In my case it is more like an Aspergers spectrum *thing* I just live with.

(I am female not that it matters.)

I am a big fan of verbal consent for all things.

[ismnotwasm]

8. I agree

I think the article is in response to certain ads, as well as the general harassment many women experience.

It's funny, how when you're older you can talk to people you've known for a long time and they'll say 'I used to have such a crush in you'

I'm very good at non- verbal cues, probably better than a lot of people, but its also very easy to be wrong, or mistaken in what I'm thinking.

I've been with my husband for over 20 years, and we will still mistake each other, and we know each other so well and are each others best friend.

[seabeyond]

9. wow y'all. interesting both of you. i excel at the nonverbal. it is where i shine. lol.

i do get that not all people do this well, and i say it like it is kinda gal also, for those that do not read the nonverbal.

but, i love the nonverbal and playing in that game. those tests where you just look at the eyes and tell what the emotion is. i always get a 10 out of 10, or 9 out of ten.

the thing. people that are not nonverbal are aware and like you and madrast say, you recognize so you verbalize.

[MadrasT]

10. LOL i get like 2 out of 10

and i figure those were just lucky guesses

[seabeyond]

11. that is funny. but, being the nonverbal kinda gal i am... i took note i recognized you that are

unable... bah hhahahah, and will verbally tell you. so it all works out.

my hubby is clueless. i have to tell him... always. my oldest is good. always was. even at a very young age. he would pick it up with an adult and look at me why and adult was beind condescending or mean when the adult thought they could get it by the kid.

my youngest... tries but not great.

this is fun.

[CrispyQ]

12. Did you ever watch the TV series 'Lie to Me'?

There are three seasons of it. I thought it was fascinating. Plus I love Tim Roth.

I think most people suck at reading non-verbal cues, the first reason being that a lot of people are so self-absorbed they aren't genuinely focused on the other person. The second reason being the tendency to interpret the cues in a manner that supports what interpreter wants.

I married late & dated a lot. I never had a time when a man misinterpreted my message. In a clear, firm voice, you say, "No, I've changed my mind!" & then you break of all physical contact immediately. If I had girls, this would be a serious discussion.

[seabeyond]

14. " If I had girls, this would be a serious discussion." for real. and having boys, it is a serious

discussion. lol

ya.

no, never heard of the show.

[CrispyQ]

16. Yes, serious for boys, too, but my point with girls is this -

break all physical contact immediately.

If you say no, but you still have your arms wrapped around the guy, in our culture, that indicates ambiguity & is often used as a justification to push forward.

Check out the series. I think you'd like it. Netflix has it.

[seabeyond]

17. i agree.

we focus on the boys behavior. i equally think we need to address the girls. no wishy washy ... not fair.

[seabeyond]

18. i was thinking. the thing i have been picking up on of late. we talk equality with girls,

but we are still making them powerless. that is often an easy out, but not the right choice. we have the expectation with our boys to be responsible with the choice and decision. they are the ones self empowered. they learn to be that. cause that is the expectation.

what i am finding i am doing now with certain things is saying. that is hers to do. do not take her power away. you are making her weak and not allowing her to be strong. these behaviors are in the "taking care of". so it is not a conscious desire to dominate and control.... benevolent. we do it to "take care of" the girl cause she is a girl. but in essence make her powerless.

[CrispyQ]

13. Which reminds of something that happened last night - lol.

It turns out that my husband has actually been listening to some of my fem-rants.

We were at the store. I needed bus passes so we went to the service counter. The woman working the counter was in her 40s, I'd guess, attractive & pleasant. While I was the one conducting the business - asking for the pass, paying for the pass - my husband was the one she gave all her attention to.

As we were walking out the store, I said, "She was interested in you. If I hadn't been there, she would have outright flirted with you." He scoffed & replied, "You're soooooo wrong on that! She's just one of the poor women who is so conditioned by the patriarchy to give her attention to the man, not the woman." I laughed & told him, "I'll give you an A for effort & for listening, but trust me, I'm right on this one!"

[seabeyond]

15. that is so fuckin' fun. i love it.

that your hubby was aware enough for that. and he is right, i have seen a lot of that. generally it is with the man addressing the hubby even if the woman is the one talking and asking and doing. and the woman is conditioned. whether interested or not, a partner to the man there or not, she feels her DUTY to flirt and give the man attention.

doesnt bode well if that woman is a waitress looking for a tip. lol.

nonverbal communication. it may effect tips. whether a person is aware and consciously picks up, or is unaware yet has a feel.

[ismnotwasm]

19. LOL

My husband had this Gay man flirting with him one time, but it was cute and obvious enough that even he couldn't deny it.