I'm so sick of anti-feminist trolls here getting a free pass.

[redqueen]

Why the fuck is it allowed?

Posting flamebait trying to shut down criticism of a movie which as ANYONE WHO PAYS ATTENTION TO FEMINIST ISSUES OR EVEN FUCKING BDSM ISSUES FOR FUCK'S SAKE knows GLORIFIED NON-CONSENSUAL VIOLENCE aka DOMESTIC FUCKING ABUSE.

IT IS GLORFYING AND EROTICIZING VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN! (Like SO MUCH porn does these days. 'but sexxx! so that makes it ok, right? as long as it's sexxxy it's just fun!' /kneejerking ignorant assholes)

And the many, many apathetic "so whats" from those too disinterested to consider that perhaps EROTICIZING VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN just MIGHT have something to do with the FUCKING PANDEMIC OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN.

That's it. I'm fucking done. These people get a pass and we're supposed to patiently hold their hands and sweetly phrase our objections to HAVING DOMESTIC VIOLENCE PORTRAYED AS EROTIC AND ROMANTIC.

[seabeyond]

1. can you believe? the argument in an OP. hey... shut the fuck up. you are not allowed to say

anything about raping and torturing a woman, that is for entertaining the masses, cause it is done in a bedroom, and probably elsewhere. so shut up. shut up now. and op telling us to shut up. cause if you actually saying it is about raping and torturing a woman for our entertainment, we might oh, like, feel.... guilty getting off on it. and that is wrong wrong wrong.

leave me alone......

not allowed to feel an ick factor. not allowed to shame. further.... hold NO moral judgment.

cause it is sex, and even if it is rape and torture, it is sex. and everything is allowed, so we can all have fun.

well, except the one being tortured and raped, maybe.

[redqueen]

4. I think I really am done with this place.

I've seen so many feminists leave after getting fed up. I've tried.

I started a nice, positive OP so that this wouldn't be my last but honestly, seeing so many line up to defend this shit... when as I said anyone who gives half a shit about feminist issues, and as those involved with the kink / BDSM community know... this book series glorified and sexualized violence against women.

And so few saying ANYTHING to challenge it. And so many proudly stating how ignorant they are, and how righteously they'll kneejerkingly defend it despite being completely ignorant about what they're defending, because sex.

So yeah, that's really just more than I can take.

[seabeyond]

5. there is one that is actively keeping the thread going redq. one. and ya... there are a few more

jumping up on toes, clapping the abuse of women, because it is a jab at the right. but, that is mostly ignorance or the same few with the desire to attack feminists here on du, specifically cause they fail so often in putting us in our place. the bottom line, it feels like this is a prominent voice. just as media made it feel like 50 shades was popular. it was not. it was a fabricated popular, just as tattoo girls was, to get the rape and torture of our women and girls out there in mainstream and to normalize abuse of our girls and women. the vast majority is disgusted by it, and have no interest in it and sees it what it is.

the few redq. these are gonna be the same few.

and they are doing it solely to create issues on du and for no other reason. how do you piss off the women the most? applauding the brutality toward women as mere fun and entertainment

[TDale313]

6. Do what you need to...

I certainly can't blame you for being fed up, but... Damn! We need your voice here.



If you do go, hopefully it'll be a break and not for good. Thank you for fighting the good fight.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

15. you sound like me the other day -

apparently everyone on here can discuss Hosts and how they do their job BUT me. I am a LIAR.

[Squinch]

61. Your anger jumps off the page, and I totally understand it. For me, when I saw that shit

going down, all I could do was roll my eyes. It seems as if those getting the free pass just live to see how far that free pass will go. And I am sorry, all those jumping in to defend something they clearly don't know anything about must just be so stupid!

I am with you in that I just don't know why I should continue to put myself in a place where there is so much dumb.

That response I had, the "Oh, here come the morons again," tells me I should probably be at least taking a break too.

I would hate not to see your name around here any more. Whatever you decide, you be happy.

[redqueen]

71. I made it through the first round of open rape apologetics on this board

back when we had admitted rapists explaining how they didn't think they were actually raping women, and people patiently or otherwise explained that no, sex with unconscious women is actually rape.

But this. This is people defending shit who claim to know what they're talking about. And it's still going on. I feel sick. I've said before this board is hostile to feminists. It is not a safe space.

[Squinch]

73. If it were only ignorance, I could stand it. But there is a glee that goes along with the ignorance

Obviously none of them has read the book, but they are licking their chops at the chance to call people "prude," and making up arguments in their heads and convincing themselves that other people have made those arguments. Then they high-five each other over their vanquishing of those arguments that THEY made up and no one said. It's deranged.

[randys1]

77. Yeah, agree, but try and not leave, I know I want to everyday

whether it is some gun person (want to use a different word but will get banned) defending guns which is childish or some idiot who thinks Black people can be racists in America, etc.

The misogyny here and all over the world is outrageous.

I know men my age who are horrible on this subject and have not changed one ounce in their entire miserable lives, still disgusting pigs.

i am sick of so much I cant tell you, but I am with you, all the way...


I remember a Woman on another board saying "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" movie and or book was misogynist, so I said it was, because of my rule, if a Woman says it is, it is.

I took a lot of shit for that

[intaglio]

2. 50 Shades is just porn

Personally I find there is more accuracy about males and females connecting through BDSM in the film "Secretary"

[redqueen]

3. Personally I'm sick of people defending the eroticization of hierarchical power structures.

[Tetris_Iguana]

8. This needs to be put on bumper sticker.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

16. ^^^^ yes and yes what you said - ^^^^^

I expect a straight to DVD move for this film.

[whathehell]

81. Yep & all you need to say is "BDSM: as long as it's consensual" and, bingo!

Last edited Thu Jul 31, 2014, 06:27 PM - Edit history (1)

"It's 'all good' ...Despite the fact of how OBVIOUSLY it mirrors

the dominant male/submissive female patriarchy.

One 'submissive' female told me "I'm a feminist, too"...When I pointed

out the um, 'obvious' to her, she just got all pissy and resentful.

[BainsBane]

82. My view is it's best not to get after people for their private choices

Cultural criticism is one thing, but that kind of personal criticism of people is counter-productive and ultimately no one's business but their own. The problem is a society that disempowers women, not what women do in their sex lives.

[whathehell]

83. I'm sorry, but I don't believe, convenient as it may be to assume that stance,

that sex choices are completely divorced from every other aspect of one's psyche. That doesn't
mean, of course, that adults aren't free to exercise their own choices, however healthy or not
they may be.

[BainsBane]

84. On a cultural level they mirror broader social relations

On a personal level, they are none of ours business.

[whathehell]

85. What's posted on a public website, is not very "personal" and

is therefore open to commentary and opinion -- Sorry.

[MadrasT]

86. I have to agree with you there.

Sorry to butt in

If people are going to post shit about their sex lives on the internet, then feedback/opinion is fair game. If you don't want critique, keep it to yourself.



Having spent years in the BDSM world myself, I can only say part of the thrill was doing things that seemed so *wrong* on every level.

I got bored with it, felt like I did what I had to do, that part of my life has passed.

But anyway, yeah, if people are going to post stuff on the internet the idea that you can't criticize sex because IT'S SEX!!!!! and somehow sacred and off limits seems absurd to me.

[whathehell]

87. Thanks, Madras,

Not to worry, I appreciate your 'butting In'.

Yeah, like you, I get a little tired of the "Oh blessed sex, we must not comment"!

attitude. If it's so damned private, it should probably be kept to oneself.

Thanks for sharing.

[ismnotwasm]

7. What thread? Was it about 50 shades?

I went and reread "The story of O" when every one was reading that shit. The writing comes across better in French, which I don't read, but it's still an uncomfortable kind of book, not so much erotic as very disturbing, as O gets deeper and deeper into submission, and loses her mind. It's the essence of sexism and misogyny --the very end it has this:

"There exists a second ending to the story of O, according to which O, seeing that Sir Stephen was about to leave her, said she would prefer to die. Sir Stephen gave her his consent.”

"Excerpt From: Reage, Pauline. “The Story of O.” Lulu.com, 2012-04-04. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright."

The movie tried to make it about sex, but to me the book was more about about suicide.

50 shades, I refused to read because I read and heard that the writing was so bad, and because if I'm going to read erotica, I want it erotic. I agree the movie can only be boring crap, glorifying violence and sexual dominance toward women. SMBD is more complicated-- I don't know one single person involved in it who isn't fucked up in some way--but it's certainly not just about dominating and abusing women.

[seabeyond]

9. good post. we will have a week or two of those applauding this trying to get this a norm, like rape

porn on du. making a lot of women sick.... to their stomach, as they get off on it with giggles. then it will fade away and die.

at the expense of women. always. just FUN. a game. for some. the few.

[ismnotwasm]

11. Exactly

And not one of them would consider being a submissive either. It has to be about dominating women, not getting their own precious asses whipped, or burned or shocked or or humiliated with much worse. And since they seem to be cheerleaders for the most idiotic of pornography, they'd know exactly what I'm talking about.


It's like prostitution, how many of these men would go make a living performing fellatio on 5 or 10 or 20 men or so a night? To do it no matter what their tricks looked like, smelled like, what their personal hygiene practices were--Even if it was "good money"?

zero.

And I guarantee they couldn't keep up with that many women in similar circumstances either.

Fucking chickenshits.

[seabeyond]

12. that would be the reason hetero male porn is 87% about humiliating, denigrating the woman. that is

what they need to get off and that must be escalated to continue getting off

Fucking chickenshits.

but... by gosh. we dare not say it out loud cause then their conscious might come into play, and where is the fun in that.

and to say is fuckin OUT LOUD on du. in an op. fuck. lets be obvious.

[LiberalLoner]

34. +1

[Tuesday Afternoon]

18. I have not read The Story of O ... or saw the movie ...

The movie tried to make it about sex, but to me the book was more about about suicide.

Does O ask to kill herself and, Sir Stephen gives his permission so she obeys/complies ... so she was so far gone she had to ask permission to commit her own suicide because that would preferable to life without Sir Stephen ?

[ismnotwasm]

45. Yup-- only the book isn't clear what happens-- it ends there

It's a horrid book and what I like about it, is the near complete lack of eroticism, there are sexual scenes described, and perhaps some would find them erotic; I do not. So they are described, but not particularly graphically however, the Dom/Submission relationship *is* described in very graphic detail

This excerpt, toward the end describes as scene where she is punished for "A boy" falling in love with her, gives a sense to the language

*Graphic*

“But I belong to you," O said. "Punish me. When Eric comes..."
 
An hour later, when he was shown a grotesquely bound and spread-eagled O strapped to the two columns, the boy blanched, mumbled something and disappeared. O thought she would never see him again. She ran into him again at Roissy, at the end of September, and he had her consigned to him for three days in a row, during which he savagely abused and mistreated her.”

Excerpt From: Reage, Pauline. “The Story of O.” Lulu.com, 2012-04-04. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

It gets worse.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

47. thanks for the excerpt, ism. -

and the use of the word *boy* brings on another level. because when I think of *boy* I equate it with not being able to give legal consent ... interesting

[Tuesday Afternoon]

10. dear lord. not sure I want to see this but off to search anyway

[seabeyond]

13. hey woman. this one can turn into an all day thing, if the guys feel they

have put women in their place. i am running away. now... lol. before i get sucked in and waste a day.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

14. ha! This is my weekend to work so, yeah. Not even posting in the thread although

I do think there is some merit in the statement about *wealth* porn.

The writing was so childishly horrific that I could not get past the 3rd page of the book.

Apparently, she bites her lip a lot and that annoys the rich dude ...

[seabeyond]

17. " I could not get past the 3rd page" general consensus. pr blitz. that is all it was.

a fucking media and pr blitz. people bought it, said, wtf.... and deleted off kindle.

the media giggled all the way thru selling ti to women.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

19. it was a hoot to watch as it went through the pseudo/ jr league club where I worked at the time.

funniest thing is - it was a 70 something Rehab patient that started it going around where I work.

Imagine That !!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

20. oh -- I see another thread about all this ... I think this is the one to which rq is talking about

what is hilarious to me is = Dude ... don't want to be in YOUR bedroom ever ... trust me on that. You need not fear I ever want anywhere close to YOUR general location much less YOUR fucking bedroom.

That OP is a trip.

[seabeyond]

21. exactly. keep it in your fuckin bedroom, please, and i wont give a fuckin flyin shit. exactly. nt

[ismnotwasm]

22. I see you trying to explain that

clearly, using small understandable words-- then the responses try to wiggle out of it. Cracks me up.

[seabeyond]

24. really, so fuckin funny. isnt it. lol. and way too easy. it is foolish. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

23. the egotistical presumption of that OP astounds me. Dude! We are talking about a fucking MOVIE -

not your BORING bedroom. Get a fucking grip.

[seabeyond]

25. i think this is the problem. the porn, the humiliation and degradation of women IS their sex life.

their bedroom. all of us are actually doing it in a bedroom. we are not seeing movies and porn as our sex life. hence. their confusion.

light bulb moment.

i am brilliant.

i tell you

[Tuesday Afternoon]

28. !

and for me



Confusion. That they do not know the difference between sex and violence. And they don't want us to explain their difference. They like their confused neurological pain receptors Partners to stay just the way they are.

Yes, that is what is happening.

[ismnotwasm]

30. All decent SMBD porn has a "don't try this at home" warning

I cruise porn sites every so often to see what's up. The danger in movies like 50 Shades, unless there's something in there I don't know about, is people trying out things the when they have NO idea what they're doing. The other thing is women are trained from birth to be "submissive" not in an SMBD way-- just not sexually assertive. We get called names when we are. I actually think that's part of the basis for the popularity of the book.

SMBD practitioners in the local club I'm familiar with (no it's not my thing-- I just have a few friends) Are interviewed, toured, safe words carefully explained.

One time they put on a exhibition of women in stirrups with a lecture on female anatomy. I had a male friend that went, who said it was respectful and helpful. (Also not my thing, but the ignorance of people and sexual anatomy, male or female always shocks me. One time we admitted a person who had to have a candle surgically removed from their rectum-- we usually don't get those ones -- they go to another hospital and/or other floors)

[Tuesday Afternoon]

33. I used to work in the ED at the local hospital ...

don't get me started about about *things removed from rectums*

I think there is a website devoted to that very thing ...

the submissive training on all level for females ... yes. and then combined with the confused pain/pleasure receptors.

However, I think, talking about it on a biological/scientific level takes the *fun* out of it for that bunch of yahoos ...

which is what makes it even more deliciously funny and ironic for me.

[seabeyond]

38. the really sick part with men is stating women fantasize about rape. in womens fantasy, it is a

whole lot, but rape is never what it is. in a fantasy women have all the control. rape. there is no control for the woman. so to state that women fantasize about rape is false. they make up the scenario. they create who with. they decide exactly what is done.

there is nothing about rape, in a womans fantasy.

[ismnotwasm]

46. Oh but it's JUST a MOVIE

A rape fantasy though-- the woman must "want" it.

Logic applies where convenient

[ismnotwasm]

50. Starting a thread on that

Would get locked in a New York second.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

52. for shame, ism ...

... you know I am NOT allowed to question the Hosts and their ability to lock. I totally LIE about shit like that.

[ismnotwasm]

55. Oh yeah My Bad

[MADem]

26. The "flamebait" thread has a long history here at DU.

IMO, it's one of the things that makes DU suck. Is it going anywhere, though? Hell, no.

Some people think the only way to have a conversation about a topic is to frame it in a way that is guaranteed to piss off a substantial segment of this community. Then the replies begin, the rhetoric gets heated, and the jury sweepstakes begin, with Hide The Post games being played all over.

Not that anyone would take me up on it, but I am uninterested in both book and movie--one COULD pay me to read/watch, but they'd have to pay me very well indeed.

[seabeyond]

27. "the jury sweepstakes begin"

man, that is said perfectly.

agree with your post.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

29. true enough but, only since the inception of DU3 did the jury sweepstakes begin

adding another layer to the hypocrisy that goes on around here.

[seabeyond]

32. do you know. i rarely got a post deleted with du2. i knew the rules and followed. moderators were

consistent.

the only time i got the hide were the few i walk over the line, purposely, to hand out a fuck you. lol

otherwise very very few of my posts got a delete.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

35. me too, sea. me too and the very Fairest thing about is that the post that started it all was

deleted, too.

The passive post that started all the aggressive got the same treatment.

[MADem]

36. Well, it's one form of tribalism over another.

"Moderator" tribalism only worked if one agreed with the moderators who happened to be making the decisions. "Juror" tribalism is a bit more of a pig in a poke; it's like the lottery.

Jurors aren't anonymous to the admins, though. The admins know plenty about the jurors/alerters just from their votes/alerts--I imagine that information is helpful when deciding who needs a tombstone and who doesn't.

I don't think they're prepared to discourage "flame bait" OPs, though. They're clickbait, and clickbait earns money. They gotta eat and buy shoes for the kids. This is their "job" where it's simply our amusement, so I would imagine if they had to make a decision between limiting discussion to that which is measured and orderly and reasonable, and buying groceries every week, they'd pick the latter.

When it gets too weird I go for that HIDE THREAD button. It's like a Lower Your Blood Pressure clicker!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

40. Truth ... they are First and #1 Businessmen with families to support

They're clickbait, and clickbait earns money. They gotta eat and buy shoes for the kids. This is their "job" where it's simply our amusement, so I would imagine if they had to make a decision between limiting discussion to that which is measured and orderly and reasonable, and buying groceries every week, they'd pick the latter.

All decisions here are driven from that mindset.

I could go on about a theory I have about it all ...

how morals and ethics or the lack of can be good short term or the effects of long term.

That extrapolates into what we are watching with worldwide economy and so I can't fault The Holy Trinity ... so yeah.

I usually stay philosophical about it all ...

However, there is the odd one or two posters where I decide hell and be damned I will speak my mind and take a hide.

[ismnotwasm]

31. Yeah I'm going to hide every thread

It could be an interesting conversation, but not with hysterical and misleading rhetoric, not to mention your average shit stirrer. Outside of here-- I'm done with it.

[Squinch]

60. I agree. These guys are all just fighting with the mommies in their heads at this point, and

no one needs to be getting in between that nonsense.

[freshwest]

80. +1

[Squinch]

39. Yes. He is the one who gave us boobs in space among other things. He lives to flame, and I

would not be at all surprised if he were paid to do it. And then the other morons just step right in line behind him like little baby ducks.

[seabeyond]

41. +1. nt

[MADem]

43. Boobs in Space? I've heard of Jews in Space (Mel Brooks) ....

[redqueen]

54. She was referring to this demonstration of sexism on DU.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024521817


She can't answer you because she got yet another bullshit hide.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5293775


Meanwhile the trolls keep on trolling.

[ismnotwasm]

57. How the hell was that hidden?

Because she said bullshit? Fail? That is truly bizarre.

[BainsBane]

68. There was not one jury comment on the results

Not one reason for the hide.

The alerter cited her use of the word "bullshit" as uncivil. If that were applied uniformly, most of DU would be suspended now.

[Scootaloo]

76. It was hidden because the poster's name is "seabeyond" n/t

[MADem]

58. Skinner was correct to label that thread as off topic.

It's "questionable" as a lounge thread but it might have been slightly less inappropriate there if the focus had been on the unusual venue for/challenges encountered by the photo shoot. If it served simply as an oogle-fest, then probably DU isn't the place.

There's nothing wrong with appreciation of the human form in all its glory, but drooling and objectification just aren't really in step with the philosophies of most people here, I don't think.

I've gotten a couple of bullshit hides myself, lately--there's really not much you can do when people target you because they don't like your opinion!

Hopefully Skinner is perceiving patterns, and by the time election season rolls around he'll have enough material to justify doing a clear-out. I think there might be a bit of a zombie-sock problem happening lately, but that's just a feeling...!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

62. Honestly that shit does not even belong in the lounge -

Last edited Sun Jul 27, 2014, 12:01 AM - Edit history (1)

Shit is shit and it still stinks. Please don't stink up the lounge with that shit. Thanks.

[MADem]

74. Well, I wouldn't start a thread of that type anywhere, not even in the lounge.

That said, if people want to oogle models (and I'm not limiting the oogling to young women, either--the male models get paid a small fortune, too, these days) and comment on their delightful appearance, which they work very hard to achieve and get paid a bundle for as well, that would probably be the better place to do it.

For those who don't appreciate that kind of thing, and who find it offensive, it's easier to avoid there. The lounge is the place for silliness, and that kind of thing, while very common (otherwise there wouldn't be a huge modeling industry) is silly. I think if we get into territory where we prohibit anyone from saying that a person "looks nice," we find ourselves in parody territory. Humans do judge other humans based on their appearances. Some people are more critical than others. I'm in the "You're never fully dressed without a smile" camp, myself, but others like to judge people more critically. It's a pastime with some, like watching gossipy television shows or playing Mrs. Kravitz at the window and seeing what the neighbors are up to. It might not be high-minded, but people DO do it, and to pretend they don't is just not realistic. So in my POV, it's best to put that stuff in the lounge.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

75. I would agree with you if this were DU2 but, on DU3 with GD being so lounge-y any more

it really just does not matter. Blurred lines and so on ...

Truth is and I have said it before ...

The Lounge is no longer needed and could be shut down and I doubt anyone would miss it.

[MADem]

78. I think the lounge keeps a lot of crap at bay.

Go have a look and imagine where that stuff would end up otherwise--the lounge is a great catch-all, I think the trick is getting more people to use it. It would solve a lot of issues.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

79. Yes, if More People Would Use It but, They Don't ... so you see the conundrum here.

meh.

There are more Hosts than Guests at this point.

Ironically, funny.

[Luminous Animal]

67. Arrgh! I can't believe sea's post was hidden.

[JoeyT]

37. And they're deliberately misrepresenting what the book is about.

It's totally about consensual sex!

Well, not really. It's more about an ultra-rich dickbag abusing someone, and raping them repeatedly, until their will breaks. I can't fathom why a feminist might object to that.

You'd think they'd object to it over the idea that ultra-rich dudes are awesome and should be able to take what they want, if nothing else.

[seabeyond]

42. perfect post. all around. thank you. their cheer for abuse of women being their entertainment

outweighs their disdain for the privileged rich. men. i say. it is not a party issue, it is a mans issue. well. it is not a class issue, lol, it is a mans issue.

[DonCoquixote]

69. class and party

Allow me to say this. The people who go to the leather shops and play around are consenting couples. They are not the people "50 shades" attempts to glorify. 50 shades is tripe, and it is hated by many because it is explotiative tripe, which attempts to sell an image for profit that has NOTHING to do with what many consenting adults do every day. My point is that it is a class issue, where the idea of a rich slimebag doing things that would get his ass kicked out of many clubs is the focus.

And no, I would not watch this as entertainment. I have watched things that are erotic, but this is not one of them, it is tripe, and destructive tripe. I would say though that if it is attacked as "XXX" and not for the tripe, people will walk right into the trap of "no such thing as bad publicity." On the othe rhand, there was a movie called "showgirls" it was trying to cash in one the XX factor, but it was instead attacked it was it was , GOD AWFUL CRAP, and it died....HARD.

[el_bryanto]

44. What irritates me is that I don't see people arguing they shouldn't

be allowed to make this movie or this book; I do see people arguing that this book and movie are bad. And the response is to attempt to shut down any discussion critical of this book and movie.

So this isn't about free speech; this is about silencing speech they don't like.

Bryant

[Squinch]

48. What irritates me is that they are railing against people who are speaking against consensual sex

acts when NO ONE is speaking against consensual sex acts.

It's a lot of people who don't know what they are talking about getting very mad that this thing that they know nothing about is being called what it is.

[ismnotwasm]

49. I know right?

There don't want a conversation they want some weird argument.

[Squinch]

59. And they just pulled that weird argument out of their asses. It's as if I were to post an OP

that said, "All of you who are telling me that I must wear a fez every Tuesday can GO TO HELL!!12! You are INFRINGING on my RIGHTS!!!@##!@" And then a lot of people chimed in to say, "Yeah! No fezzes if we don't want to! You can't tell us to wear fezzes!"

When of course, no one ever told me anything of the sort.

The silliness here used to be bothersome. Now it is just so tiresomely stupidly predictable.

[el_bryanto]

51. THey move it to consensual sex because it's safer ground

It's an old argumentative technique - declare what your opponent is against and then attack that - the Straw Man argument.

Bryant

[Tuesday Afternoon]

53. it is hilarious to watch. and how they keep defending their right to remain ignorant

hey ... who wants to waste their time arguing with logic like that? not me and bless the ones on here that try.

[thucythucy]

56. The same weird argument applies to porn in general.

If one tries to analyze and critique various aspects of porn as being classist, sexist, racist, homophobic, you immediately get the counter-argument "You're anti-sex" or "you want to ban...." or "you're a prude..." blah blah blah. "Stay out of my bedroom etc."

Interesting that you rarely get this response to critiques of other media. If someone on DU points out, say, the racism or classism in a TV ad, you're not very likely to get the free speech argument in reply. No one (or no one I've seen) responds with "You want to ban all advertising."

Odd convolution too: to defend "freedom of speech" these folks essentially are telling us to STFU.

Please don't go, Redqueen. Take a break if you need to, but without you DU would be so much less. I for one would be less likely to stay, if voices such as yours are no longer here. Don't give the trolls the satisfaction of driving you off--I think that's truly the intent--to silence feminist voices here in the same way feminists have been quashed in so many other places.

It will be sad to see them succeed in silencing yet another feminist, in what is supposed to be a progressive forum.

[Squinch]

63. I agree about redqueen's voice. It is one of the few reasons I still come here. And you are right

too about porn getting a free pass to be classist, sexist, racist and homophobic.

[DonCoquixote]

64. bottom line

The sort of BDSM done in 50 shades is not, nor should it be considered, regular BDSM that is done between CONSENTING ADULTS!, therefore, this book does NOT deserve the same protection we would offer to two adults that are just having fun. The motto adopted by many is "safe, sane, consentual" three things the asshole "protagonist" in this book is NOT!

Yes, this book is sexist, and no, it does not matter that it was written by a woman, that was imitating Stephanie Miller, another woman whose book Twilight GLAMORIZED BEATING YOUR SPOUSE and KILLING HER. At least, unlike Twilight, this book was not marketed to teens, but if this movie gets money, then it very likely may be.

I would love to see real BDSM couples rip this flick apart, especially as it exploits them and sells a false image that they hope will sell merchandise.

I have locked horns with redqueen before on this issue, but as far as attacking 50 shades, I will gladly fight alongside her in that trench, especially as I know people who are sick sick sick of having to tell their friends "no, we do not LIKE that fucking book, much less want to imitate that."

Especially because the "dom" in this one is just another rich tool who thinks the world revolves around him (minor spolier altert, I guess) If I wanted to see rich tools get what they want so they can hide their lack of manhood, I would watch Fox News.

[ismnotwasm]

65. +1

[Gravitycollapse]

66. I've never been compared to Rick Santorum...until today, of course.

My participation in such discussions always seems to start out naively. I think it's possible to have a meaningful debate. I forget where I am. Then they invariably descend into these meta discussions on the discussion itself.

Why have I spent dozens of posts discussing whether or not I'm allowed to discuss the subject at hand?

This goes back to an OP I posted a couple days ago where I claim we spend the majority of the time on this website skimming the surface of subjects, throwing insults at each other, getting nowhere.

[kickitup]

88. I was late to the party and have been getting caught up. You did nothing wrong . . .

presented your argument well and made it very clear you were not judging or prescribing behavior. I did the same as you, starting out naively, making the comment that it bothered me that so many women were/are attracted to the book, and that I am also bothered by my own submissive tendencies. I guess in retrospect I worded it poorly, in that by "bothered" I mean "bothered in a curious way," if that makes sense. I wonder what these submissive desires say about us and our culture. I never expected the response, which included the suggestion I seek therapy for questioning my desire. I just couldn't believe it. Since when is self-examination frowned upon? I don't want to skim the surface - I want to dive in, even if it takes me to uncomfortable depths.

To give them the benefit of the doubt, I honestly wonder if your argument was over their heads. They seemed not to understand what you meant by "politics," thinking you meant Democrat or Republican and I think they thought you were saying there is a correct way to have sex. They didn't understand your greater point, which was that everything we do is, in a very big way, influenced by the political or power structure. At least I think I have your argument right as I'm trying to recall from memory your words.

I just remember seeing your comments and feeling a great relief that I was not alone. So thank you.

[BainsBane]

70. Here is a synopsis of the book

That someone pointed me to who actually read it: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/FiftyShadesofGrey

It shows that it does indeed depict rape, as you argued. You can point to that in future discussions.

[redqueen]

72. What would be the point of future discussions?

I mean, I get that we have to explain rape to republicans.

I even got that we had to explain it to rapists here.

But explain it to people who swear up and down that they're in-the-know about bdsm? About feminist issues? People who read the book and still managed to somehow interpret fucking rape as consensual sex?

I'm just...no. I really do feel sick. Things are much worse than even I thought. And I already thought I was pretty cynical.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

89. you have no idea how sick of it I am. Wish I could rec this post a million times and I do mean

One Million Times.