Are Lutherans alienated/bashed here?

[turtlerescue1]

Of all the reasons the "other side" outrages me, the conservative christain (small "C&quot right has come in first. Its been irritating enough that its like they read a different Book than I do, they sure have a different summation!

Just visited two sites via DU, and OUCH fits. I wondered and of course discounted that my Democrats would be so vicious- NOW?????? Dunno.

It is an individual thing, you pursuit it or you don't. You wrestle to understand or you don't. Faith really isn't about believing in what is seen or tangible, its faith in what is unseen. And it requires the same sense of humor Marty Luther had dealing with Rome.

I just need to know if this is a place I'll fit or if there is only Limbo, because my grasp of meaning and content is 180 Degrees from that conservative christian (again SMALL "C&quot right.

So has the false teachers created a way to divide us even deeper?

[ZombieHorde]

1. You may want to post this in meta...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1240

We also have a religion group: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1218

All the different groups can be hard to manage for new comers.

[turtlerescue1]

2. THANKYOU!

[cyberswede]

3. ...just a heads up...

The Religion Group is for believers and non-believers to discuss religion. It can get a little contentious there - and some might feel there is "bashing" there from both sides.

You might check out the Christian Liberals & Progressive People of Faith group, which is a safe-haven group (meaning that it's a supportive environment for spiritual discussion).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1222

[turtlerescue1]

4. Tanks, and am on my way there, :)

[hunter]

5. Welcome! There are many religious people here.

The "Religion" forum is "Fight Club" but you don't have to go there if you don't enjoy that sort of thing. Some do.

Christian Liberals & Progressive People of Faith is the protected group, as mentioned above. That doesn't mean there is no debate; such a place does not exist on DU.

Posting openly about one's faith in General Discussion often draws hostility, but you won't be the only progressive Christian voice there.

Social Justice Catholicism is a major progressive force in my own community.

‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Matthew 25:40

[JNelson6563]

6. Welcome TurtleRescue1!

I see you have already gotten perfect advice so I am just posting to say welcome!

Julie--who was unaware Luther had a sense of humor

[turtlerescue1]

7. There are many volumes of Luther's Writings

I was sure when I opened that first one up I was going to find I hated the guy. Instead the humor spilled out, and had to keep laughing, but when you lived that long ago and you nail things to a gate that irritate your employer-and your employer includes the Pope, yeah, you sure needed a sense of humor.

Just in case... since I can't figure out how to add the link, its oldlutheran.com. Typical, and Marty would approve.
Love being liberal, progressive and stuffy-smirk

Been a democrat too long to feel excluded. Worse, if we don't find common ground, and some deep unity, its not just the individual that will suffer.

See I am realllly tired of praying for the GOP puppets to have an epiphany. Its hard praying FOR your enemies.

[JNelson6563]

8. You will have a lot of fun here!

I think it's evident you have a good sense of humor, you'll fit right in! The humor at DU is one of my very favorite parts! Far from feeling excluded, I think you'll feel quite comfortable.

Thanks for the link! I will check it out, sounds like there is interesting stuff yet to learn on ol' Luther.

Welcome and enjoy!

Julie

[CleanLucre]

40. it's called pranking

"when you lived that long ago and you nail things to a gate that irritate your employer-and your employer includes the Pope, yeah, you sure needed a sense of humor."

Martin Prankster

[cbayer]

9. Welcome turtlerescue! Someone in the lounge needs your help

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018130983

[noel711]

10. I'm LUtheran clergy (ELCA) woman, feminist, crazy...

I've been at DU for a number of years,
and often bashed.

To many liberals, 'christian' and liberal just dont' work.
to many, to be 'christian' is to be fundie and literalist,
and closed minded.
they need to get out more.

I try to hold my own, but often walk away from a fight,
after all, it isn't worth it.

Welcome.. and be who you are.
There will be some who don't like it,
tough toenails.
That's life-
but you won't be the sole lutheran...

unless you're LCMS or Wisconsin Synod (which oddly makes more
sense to me after the debacle on Tuesday-) !

[turtlerescue1]

11. Aye, there's the rub.

The great irony is that same vehemence can be found in both the Darwinist and the GOP brand of (small "C&quot christianity.

Did they never study the levels of literary works? The story level, the symbolic, the metaphoric, and later- finally-that "Spiritually Linguistic" level. Music. Poetry. The Fine ARTS. Art. Theater. The Classical composers, how did they ever write those notes? isn't it all from a place of inspiration within? Frankly isn't all Inspiration divine?

It is easy to see what is ugly, cold, mean, heartless, but isn't it easier and a lot more pleasant to see wonder? The taste of a juicy peach, a lemon, an orange, a grapefruit.
The birds and their birdsong. Humor, the frog, the cat, the giraffe, the hippo. Scents, oh yeah, lavender, cedar, skunk.

and its ELCA. We're an experiment in progress. Our new pastor began as a nun, she completes the work and will be ordained this winter. Our congregation is such a great mix of backgrounds. A few grumble, but then we're Lutherans, we fear change and yet what did Marty bring? Love it.

[noel711]

12. Aye, Turtle.. you ask the ultimate question:

"Did they never study....?"

Nope.
don't make me do the difficult work of thinking.
Too much trouble.
And thus the state of our society today.
We, as a nation, want it easy.
We, the people, want the 'Burger King' analogy of life:
"I Want it MY way..." and the hell with anything that isn't
'black or white...'

Occasionally I find a fellow traveler in life,
but on the whole this life is like herding cats.

As to ministry: I remind myself often that I was put into
my circumstances to love the people, but its often very hard.
For many of them... being compassionate is something new.
There are situations where I struggle with what I must say,
which is often 'No.'

And on with the experiment, which is us.
Much more fun than having all the pat answers..

[LiberalFighter]

13. If there is any bashing of Lutherans it don't happen much and I haven't seen it my recollection.

Besides there are different Lutherans. Some more liberal. Some more conservative.

[noel711]

14. Thank you Liberal...

There is a spectrum.. so to speak, of Lutheran theology,
and of biblical interpretation.

But not everyone sees it as you do;
to many liberals: Lutherans are a church,
and churches are christians,
and christians are ""*$!!CHRISTIANS!!$*""
and we're all alike.

Nonsense.

[LiberalFighter]

15. I use to be WELS Lutheran -- no more

My understanding it is to the right.

There really isn't much education on the matter. I had 5th thru 8th grade with them. Confirmation classes. There really isn't much discussion in classes or real explanation of history or anything. As kids of that age not prone to challenging elders.

Did some Bible Study but found that to be superficial.

Since being in an environment where I am not pressured to believe I have been better able to understand the issues and see the conflicts of the beliefs and Bible. The way I see it is that it is not all bad but it is also not all good. What people need to do is take themselves to the very beginning of time for people to better understand why people began to believe what they did.

[noel711]

16. WELS? Bless you!

Another church where you aren't encouraged to think,
just what to believe.

heaven forbid we think..

The bible as a literary/historical document is fascinating,
but to be expected to swallow it whole without question
is horrible. There is far too much to digest,
and too many loose ends, as well as too many questions...
it takes more than a lifetime to understand.
But I guess that's why its a book of faith.

Glad you are here!

[geardaddy]

17. I've never seen any Lutheran bashing on here.

But living in a Lutheran heavy state (MN) I have no problem with ELCA. Wis. and Missouri synods are nutso in my book.

So, if that's bashing, then I'm bashing, I'll admit it.

[noel711]

18. No, that's not bashing...

Bashing usual includes the phrase:

"How the fuck can you believe that shit you moron!"

Etc etc etc.

Sadly... its just the sense that all christians are alike
and believe all the fundie, literalist crapola.
and no, they don't want to listen to differences.
Just easy to think everyone is alike...

[grantcart]

19. Lutherans and Episcopal are OK but Methodists and Presbyterians are scorned.

Seriously though the Lutheran minister upthread is pretty accurate.

There are many here who reflexively bash all religions and others that bash all things Christian.

If you have a thin skin on the issue then you will want to stay away from GD.

On the other hand if you are comfortable in your faith you should be able to defend its reasonableness.

I wouldn't take religiious discussions here too seriously, a lot of people are reacting out of personal anger at the way that they have been treated by Christians in the past.

You might find it a good place to practice turning the other cheek.

[turtlerescue1]

20. thanks

It's that anger! Prevents commonunity.

Don't mind turning the other cheek, got friends who feel liberal views are an outrage as they follow the directions of some on DayStar. That particular cheek is now "normally
reddened.

Its a terrible thing that results in consistent distrust, it turns into a rubber stamp, and that is just wrong and bad. Worse, tooo many times when the Dems really need to be united, we become splintered-THIS time we need the Unity. WE certainly have the quantity, all we need is the unity-the democratic republic is in more jeopardy than have ever seen it in my 60 years.

[JNelson6563]

24. I'm in agreement on the unity thing

but I have to tell you, since our first exchange on this thread....my daughter went to visit Grandma (her dad's mom) down in Detroit suburbs. While the kids ad I are unbelievers daughter still agreed to go to church with Grandma, who's old and frail, 'cause it would make her happy.

At the service the pastor went on and on about how Obama is not a real Christian, talked about abortion, same sex marriage, non-Christians and such. My daughter was horrified, declared to be utterly shocked that some of the pastor's diatribe was to accuse the various enemies cited as "bigots". She gave a wry smile, rolled her eyes and said "Yeah, you guys are the bigots".

Thought you'd be interested to know one young person's take on their recent experience at a Luthern church. I'm sure some branches are more humane but, going by this, some are as bad as the fundy churches.

I wouldn't be looking at the Luthern church as a whole as Dems. Not at all.

Julie

[turtlerescue1]

26. I am sooo sorry.

First thought: someone has chosen the "wide road" over that "narrow path". And the price from that venom has led yet another person to be discouraged and angered, and you cannot blame that young person. Good for her for her response.

It is a precarious frustrating place JNelson6563. The Loudest voices get heard the easiest.
Still, at another time the "leaders at the Temple', the Pharisees and Sadducees, also screamed from the pulpit about the Law given to Moses, and the one time one particular person became angry was at the moneylenders in the Temple. Not much as changed, the greatest harm is done by those who KNOW better, and if they don't know better then they aren't studying the training manual.

In 1974 a Louis H. Valbracht wrote a small book, called "The Follies of Fundamentalism"- am sure he had NO idea how destructive his "observations" would be in 2012.

I am sorry for the experience. The Creator I believe in, the one who has sustained and carried me repeatedly when there were no options for my independent self, the same one who likely wishes I would lose a few pounds. This is NOT a cruel, vicious, hate-mongering Creator, quite the opposite. Dunno perhaps my close friend of fifty years is right, she wrote God put His mark on us long ago. BUT the Creator I believe doesn't make preferences, isn't myopic and sure likely isn't pleased with the Fundies. I know they sure make it difficult to follow the Gospels in daily life. Laws are "matter, they have form and take up space", Spirituality cannot be seen or touched.

Last week after one of my rants about the destruction caused by the likes of some names I won't mention here, but Hagee is one of them. A friend said "How tragic. When we are afraid, we have our faith to keep us hopefilled, but wouldn't they be even more afraid?"
I dunno. I am not quick to comprehend, have to do this 360 of walk, squat and ponder-and sometimes in more circles than most merry-go-rounds.

Yet "you will know them by their fruits", and these fruits by some are impossible to swallow or enjoy.

A third time I say it: I am sorry for this event. The Best shepherd/teacher is Gentle.

For what its worth: there are three synods among Lutherans, the Wisconsin is the harshest; the Mo. well when in church school, my dad who paid for my education as well as the taxes for public schools, was not allowed to be a member, because he was a Mason, came from a long line of Masons and a Union member, which explains why he was a Mason-neither he nor I were pleased. The ELCA is the newest, and by far the gentler.
Yet a few years ago there was a huge rift because the intent was to allow and welcome homosexuals as ministers- some minds are just cemented! Even at my little church here, way out in the hills, we now have a woman pastor, AND she brought in more than just organ music- a few are outraged, while most of us aren't sure it matters what instrument makes a "joyful noise".

All I can do is pray for an Epiphany, and AHA moment.
Peace be to you -

[JNelson6563]

34. Me too.

It is especially sad that there are actually people who are Christians that are wonderful who get crowded out of the picture by those who....are not.

I have worked hard to teach both of my kids you can't judge an entire group by the actions of some. I am pretty sure my daughter knows all aren't like that. I did explain there are different "synods" in the Luthern world and all I know is they seem to be different "mission statements", as it were. Grandma's was obviously from one of the less humanistic ones.

It did occur to me though that such experiences may lead to negative remarks, I just hope people get into the habit of using the word "some" quite liberally. "Some Christians are jerks..." "Some atheists are assholes..." You get the picture.

Because "all" doesn't apply!

Good to have another voice of reason from the religious among us!

Julie

[CleanLucre]

41. my parents Presbyterian church/family of 4 decades

has been taken over by fundamentalists. Those who don't like it were given a letter with a list of other churches to go to. The Right Wing stealth movement doesn't just begin in local school boards.

[wyldwolf]

21. Any supporters of Lex Luthor shouldn't be here. :)

... ohh, LUTHERANS... they're fine with me.

[noel711]

22. THAT was my morning LOL!~

NOw off to to my duties...

the Tree of LIfe is the theme for the day,

and I am privileged to baptized little Jordan and Eva..
two beautiful little girls.

Then off the the trail to pound off some sweat.

Life, altho contentious, is good...
for a radical, feminazi lutheran pastor that is.

I'm sure some would take issue with that.

[turtlerescue1]

23. Tree of Life.

Awwww, bet its a good one.

So far my morning has consisted of trying to email my US Rep, who rode into office on the Tea Party, ought to tell you the impact a stuffy Lutheran will make eh?

Wonderful for the two baptisms, the ONE sacrament we need MOST! "This is most certainly true."

Well there is that matter of communion, seems to be constant need.

[noel711]

25. I email my US Rep... a tea partier, Mike Fitzpatrick..

who won despite the character of the former rep, Patrick Murphy.

Fitzpatrick is a douche...
because I email him, I am on his email list,
and get the most bizarre letters..

He really doesn't care what we think.
Tea Baggers do the bidding of the master,
and who cares what the minions think?

Constant communion? Yes please.

[turtlerescue1]

27. Yep!

Every time i think of communion_
Pastor La had been trying to get me to join or at least participate. Every Tuesday was SecondHarvest-so I would get up at 4:30 a.m. to go to Pastor Paul's and pick up about 120 assorted bread products and then go to the parking lot and help with the set up and distribution of the produce. One time we had this astounding overwhelming amount of fresh grapes, breath-taking amount left over. Pastor La came out, and I suggested he take the grapes and make wine for communion. He said "What would it take to get you to come and join in communion?" I replied "Well that depends on how big the glasses are Pastor." Of course I joined...later.

Ain't it just this great awareness of "efforts in futility" writing our GOP Reps? Still it does keep one's sense of humor refreshed. Am to the point I start off with "Yep, its that Diingbat once more...."

After some weeks I'm pretty sure I qualify for an IV of Communion!

[noel711]

30. I like that attitude...

I really think the 'christian' conservatives are threatened by the
liberal view of the gospel. Its' almost laughable...

4:30 am? Now that's dedication!

[hrmjustin]

28. As an episcopalian I love lutherans!

[noel711]

29. Ah.. we're kissin' cousins..!!

Kiss, hug, peace of Christ!

[hrmjustin]

31. You too noel711!!!

[TBF]

32. Religious bigotry is against the terms of service

of this website.

Try posting in the "religion" group - http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1222

Hopefully it will go ok

Welcome to DU!

[Taverner]

33. I'm a positive Atheist, and I have no problems with Lutheranism

Martin Luther, different story

[noel711]

37. True, Luther was a hot mess....

lots of psychoanalysis available,
but he drove the fiirst wedge in the roman catholic church...
and the pieces are still falling away.

Luther had a few good ideas, but he was a man of his time,
and much of what he believed is tripe.
In fact, he didn't want a church body named after him...
who would?

[Taverner]

38. He wanted to stage a coup and become pope!

His antisemitism was pretty nasty too...

On the other hand, I like that whole nailing your grievances on the door thing...

Tempted to try that at my job...

[noel711]

39. No, Taverner, I don't think he wanted to be Pope...

Antisemitism..yes.

Pope? I don't think so.

He had a wife and 6(?) kids..
wouldn't have worked well in the vatican.

I used to stick post-it notes on my church's door...
Made for some happy times....

[cpacker]

35. Hi.

Hi.

[turtlerescue1]

36. Hello