If Bernie Sanders loses, his backers may not be there for Hillary Clinton in November

[silvershadow]

Gio Vanecchia is so enamored of Bernie Sanders that he made a five-hour drive with his wife and infant son from South Jersey on Saturday morning to catch a glimpse of the progressive firebrand.

But what if Sanders loses the Democratic nomination? Asked whether he will be there to vote for the Democrat in November should Sanders falter, the 34-year-old union mechanic reacts as if the question is insane. There is not a chance, he insists, that he would ever support Hillary Clinton.

“She’s establishment,” Vanecchia said. “Most of the guys I work with think she’s a criminal.”

Usually, that sort of primary-season hostility means little when the general election rolls around. Even after bitter battles, voters generally coalesce around the goal of beating the opposing party.
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more: http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-clinton-sanders-20160206-story.html
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[roguevalley]

1. in my state it doesn't matter. If Bernie is denied through the

usual bs rather than not getting the majority of votes, a lot of people will not vote for her.

[pugetres]

2. That article highlights

a simple fact that many of the members of this site overlook when making blanket statements about "no true scotsman...". There is so much worry about if "your" candidate were to lose the primary, would you back "my" candidate while forgetting that a lot of the support Sanders is getting is from independents. They aren't beholden to some party line and they could care less about the purity tests.

If Clinton gets the nomination, she will only see a fraction of the Sander's supporters turn to support her because those independent voters have become democrats only for this voting cycle. I've read more than one comment online that basically says, "I'm a donkey this year but only because of Sanders."

[FrenchieCat]

6. The way I see it...

If Clinton is the nominee, she may lose some votes, but she will not energize the opposition vote as much as a Socialist screaming revolution and proposing to raises taxes to give you government run healthcare will after the GOP billions are done with him! That will generate seven hour lines of Republicans waiting to vote against him! They already think that they are losing their country, but this would be their tipping point! Not only Republicans, but even those independents, since not all Insependents are alike! Many are Indies because the are liberal about some things, but more consevative about other issues! An many don't like radical change.

What the revolution doesn't seem to take into account, is that the presidency is won by electoral vote, not the popular vote! You got a win enough states to get to the right number.

The theory is that Sanders will get a lot of people to vote that normally don't. Well, if those people aren't in Ohio, or there aren't enough of them, the revolution loses.

If Trump gets the GOP nom, there will be plenty of Republicsns who will stay home, and plenty of others, who will hold their nose and vote for who they believe would be the most stable, as opposed to voting for Trump.

And let us not forget, that Hillary Clinton would be the first woman presidential candidate on the ticket. Although the Sanders supporter like to discount that right away, when there is a choice to be made, don't think that she won't get extra votes just due to her gender, because she would.

[persuadable]

15. Both Trump and Bernie are anti-establishment

THEY MAY NOT BELIEVE IN THE SAME THINGS, but if one is nominated by one of the parties and the other is not, that one will get ALL of the anti-establishment vote. And this year, that includes many, many voters.

[JoeyT]

20. I think it goes the other way.

Republicans HATE Hillary. They're *still* all pissed off they couldn't knock out Clinton when he was president, and they transferred it to her, on top of how much they already hated her. Nothing will energize Republicans and conservative independents as much as a chance of sticking it to Hillary. Sanders could walk out wrapped in a hammer and sickle flag yelling about how he's going to tax everyone at 90% and it still wouldn't come close. They hate Hillary WAY more than they ever did Obama, and you see how stupid they've been about him for the last 8 years.

They'd turn out to vote in record numbers for Adolph Hitler if he was running against Hillary in the general. That's barely even a joke.

[LiberalElite]

23. Clinton won't energize the Repugs to come out and vote?

they hate her as much as they hate Obama!

[grasswire]

28. you are living in some sort of dream world

Republicans and Libertarians will crawl across broken glass to vote against Hillary.

I, as a Democrat, would be more inclined to hold my nose and vote for her in the GE if she was honest and trustworthy.

[daleanime]

29. What's her favorably again?

Anyone who even leans republican would crawl over broken glass to vote against her this fall, then again in '18, and again in '20. Meanwhile things passing though an increasing red congress will either be veto proof or some thing that Hillary and republicans can agree on. What are the odds of us, democratic voters, liking anything that republicans and Hillary agree on?

[pugetres]

42. Is "Independent" a 3rd party

or is it a group of switch hitters in a two-party system?

I'll let the indies define themselves. I can only watch how they take the lead to try to define it all.

[TTUBatfan2008]

18. The issue is...

Even if you don't agree with all of Sanders' agenda, the one thing we all know is that he is not in the back pocket of the bankers and war mongerers. Even diehard conservatives can admit he has more integrity than anyone in their movement other than perhaps Ron Paul (who also refused corporate money and fought the big banks/war machine).

The one thing everyone knows after they research Bernie's record is that he will veto anything that fucks over the public, like a rotten bankruptcy bill or trade agreement...and so forth. We know he will not drag us into unnecessary wars that cost too much money and blood. This appeals to everyone who is fed up with the status quo.

Once you have this knowledge of his integrity compared to all of the other candidates, it would be easy to simply not vote for any of the others. I live in Texas so it won't matter in my case, but I'm sure it will be a tougher decision for people in purple states like Ohio/Florida.

[LiberalArkie]

35. Plus there are a large group of Bernie supporters who are voting for the first time

and registered and plan on voting for Bernie. I do not think that any of the Republican candidates have turned non voters on that much. Nader did and Ron Paul turned a large amount of non-voters into at least one time voters. I am hoping that these people will continue to vote but history does not seem to bear it out. They will vote down the ballot in the primaries but if the person who turned them on is not elected or if the candidate is not embraced by the winner, then that new voter is lost and may be lost forever.

[randomelement]

36. I am one of those who changed their party affiliation to participate in the Democratic Primary

Let me make it clear - for me, this isn't just any Presidential election, it's THE Presidential election of my life. I have watched for many years while this country has gone further and further into decline - all because of greed. And now, after all of that, I see the giant shit sandwich the "establishment" has left to my kids and grandkids ....

and I'VE HAD IT!

For 35+ years, the greedy fuckers have had a chance to show us all what real capitalism could be, with tax break after tax break after tax break. And where are we now?!? - a wage inequality that is off the charts (literally) - a nation's wealth handed over to the biggest pieces of shit I've EVER seen (who have talked themselves into believing they deserve it!)

So, I'm done with their little experiment in disaster capitalism - the fuckers had their chance to show us - their time is over.

To me, they have one choice and one choice only at this point - they can either agree to the redistribution of the wealth to correct the egregious inequity (through the taxation that Bernie has suggested) or they can suffer the fate of those who tread this very same path back in the late 1700's in France.

As I said, they have one choice - and I'm not the only one to feel this way.

As pigboy at Goldman Sachs said - this is a "dangerous moment" ....

He has no fucking idea -

Apologies if I offended anyone with this screed - but if you're thinking that Clinton can count on the independents, you'd better rethink your conclusions - she's part of the problem

[Pastiche423]

37. I am another that changed to registered Democrat

the day after Bernie formally announced.

I have been waiting since 1972 to find a candidate that I WANTED to vote for. Bernie is that candidate.

If he is not on my ballot on May 17, I will write his name in.

[malokvale77]

38. No offense taken.

I loved reading your screed.

[dana_b]

41. yes - well said! and I'm also and independent turned Dem (for now)

I'm actually further left than most of the Democratic party and got pretty turned off after how the liberals/progressives were treated 8 years ago. So I have been an independent since and JUST registered as a Dem last month in order to vote for Bernie. My daughter, her boyfriend and even my Republican sister are all registering as Dems for Bernie. If he doesn't win the nomination, none of us feel any loyalty to the Dems. I don't believe that Clinton gives a hoot about my daughter's future and the fact that she can't afford university, is having difficulty finding a decent paying job while she struggles through school, that she's afraid to have children because of climate change and what she and her kid(s) will have to contend with due to it. I also truly believe that Clinton will say almost anything to get elected.

Nah - I don't care about purity tests, but I expect candidates to have some kind of integrity, generally try to tell the truth (lol!), and to be more in line with the majority of the U.S. than the top 5-10%. I don't think that's too much to ask but it's been difficult to find. Bernie gives us some hope.

[littlewolf]

3. I firmly believe that people are going vote

for the winner of the nomination.

[marble falls]

4. I support Bernie and if he doesn't get the nod, I will vote for Hillary.

[marew]

10. Disagree completely!

Especially after what Madeleine Albright said yesterday. I will not vote for any candidate simply because we share "lady parts"! Women who don't support women will end up in hell? Really? And Hillary appeared to love it. Thanks M. Albright for reducing the race to something merely sexist. Lost all respect for Albright after that comment!
PS: And I am 69 years old!

[bvar22]

16. Gloria Steinem was near as bad on Bill Maher last night.

Blinded by the vagina.... I thought that only happened to high school boys.

[TTUBatfan2008]

19. Hillary's statement during the debate...

was in a weird way one of the most sexist things I've ever heard. She said because of her gender she cannot be part of the Establishment. This implies that women are not allowed to achieve enough to be in the Establishment, which is utter bullshit. Hillary is a great example of a lady who has achieved a lot and is very much part of our country's political Establishment.

Very successful lawyer
Board of Wal-Mart for many years
First Lady of Arkansas for many years
First Lady of the United States for many years
U.S. Senator from New York for many years
Secretary of State for many years

If that is not the Establishment, then I do not know what is. Playing the gender card in the way she did during the debate is also a huge insult to the intelligence of people watching. She is a smart lady. Please do not treat us like we are fools. Bernie Sanders would be the first Jewish President and you never see him playing the Jew card at all. It's all about the issues, namely THE biggest issue of our time: money in politics.

[LiberalElite]

24. Elsewhere here there's a post

that says Steinem has since apologized. She misspoke.

[bvar22]

33. She probably watched a tape of herself, and was as disgusted as I was.

Now, she is trying to do some damage control.

I "misspoke", LOL.
I can imagine trying THAT one on my father when I was a child.
I wouldn't be here today if I did.

That is the most over abused excuse for LYING used by our elite Political Class.

[marble falls]

17. I certainly won't vote one way or another because of Ms Albright's rational...

but I am going to have no trouble at all voting for Hillary Clinton IF Bernie Sanders doesn't get the nod because I refuse to vote directly for any of the GOP or indirectly by not voting at all.

The one and only option past Bernie is Hillary and I will actively support her if she's the candidate.

Any other choice regardless of the principle is foolish and self harming.

And I am 65.

Bernie got Hillary to finally pull SS off the table. He got her to turn her back on Keystone and the death penalty. All we have to do is hold her to those new positions.

[bvar22]

22. Hillary "says" she has become a Populist ever since Sanders started closing in.

We all are well aware of Hillary's relationship with the truth.
Do you really believe her Campaign Pablum?
or her past record?


I have a problem believing anything Hillary says during campaign season.
I've always been suspicious of last minute Jail House Conversions.
Nothing in her body language, affect, or voice indicates she is being honest with her sudden Populist evolution.

[marble falls]

43. I have a simple question for you:

Hillary vs anyone in the clown car?

[FrenchieCat]

5. If people don't want to vote

That is their choice! However, this almost sounds like extortion! So I say do what you've got to do! It just means that those folks care more about their leader and it means that they don't much about this country! They've decided that both parties are just the same! Sound like a 3rd party Naderite! and so that's life!

[marew]

14. Say what you want...

But ONLY YESTERDAY did she agree not to cut SS. She was for so many things before she was against them! She checks which way the wind blows constantly and says merely what the people in front of her want to hear. People are tired of it! We do not want someone whose convictions change with the tide! People who care about their country do not vote for a seriously flawed candidate even in their own party! Especially after being told you will go to hell for not voting for that person. Did you see H smile when Albright said that? I would have intervened immediately if I'd been H. Just vote for H only because she's a woman! SICK! I could not take it- changed channels immediately!
And, yes, I would love to read what she said to Goldman-Sachs during three talks where she was paid $625,000. What is she hiding?

[LiberalElite]

25. Somehow I get the impression

that you think we're all 3d party Naderites here.

[marble falls]

44. Last election the Gop offered "self deportation" ....

This year we're threatening "self voter suppression". Its a lemming like behavior.

Electing Trump (or Cruz or Carson or ...) passively sounds like a piss poor strategy I bet would be welcomed by the GOP unless one would rather make a vote directly for Trump as a protest to Hillary, in which case they would jump for joy and the RNC would put you on the mailing list.

Both of those options are not wise and accomplish nothing good. Disengaging is not a rational option!

[Feeling the Bern]

7. Okay, time to look at her rhetoric

Let's see, she's insulted labor unions, women with independent minds that don't vote for vagina, the young who don't know any better, those who are dreamers because the support Bernie Sanders. I'm waiting for her to call people who disagree with her losers.

She has made me feel really good she even wants my vote.

[spinbaby]

8. I'm for Bernie, not against Hillary

I don't get the hostility, they're both fine candidates.

[marew]

11. Really!

Remember when H complained she was "dead broke"? What a whiner! I am a retired graduate lever social worker- I have seen "dead broke"! H has no clue what poverty is! Of course Wall Street, among others, helped her out of her 'problem' big time! And there are times when H was swayed by contributions- others on here have documented such! So we know she lies!

[Cartoonist]

12. This is why Hillary must drop out

She can not count on the idealistic independents. As a Democrat, I will hold my nose to protect it from her stink, should she win the nomination, but I don't see the young people who are drawn to politics for the first time because they are energized by a man who speaks truth, vote for a nouveau plutocrat.

They will become disillusioned and see the system as rigged. Many will give up on politics, and we'll have to wait another generation for a rebirth while Wall Street and the MIC sit side by side at the desk in the Oval office with Hillary or the republican de jour.

[Mbrow]

13. Looking at some of the replies,

I agree that most Dems will vote for HRC, they might be holding their nose when they do it but they will. BUT please remember the low turn out in the mid terms and even during a presidential election when there isn't a candidate people can't get behind. There is a reason we lost the midterms, people felt they were voting for the same old shit and they were. If we elect a REAL progressive president you know he will be doing his best to help others get elected as will the current ground swell. My wife and I saw it here when BHO was elected, we had a HUGE ground swell of people ready and willing to carry on for Dems state wide. And what did the state dems do? FUCKING nothing, not one single thing to get all those people young and old who were willing to help, they fucking threw away the e-mail address , would not give them to us, the local captains to work with or to get volunteers and they were so willing! at the caucus they came in droves! we normally got maybe a hundred, we had over a thousand! All that was lost because the establishment Dem trashed it. Now that my little rant is done If HRC wins the primary it will be the same, the people Bernie inspires will not vote for the same old trash, they will not vote for the same old trash down stream. Please remember a lot of the seats we lost in both houses were blue dogs and people are tired of this BS.

[HooptieWagon]

31. Probably most Sanders Dems would vote for Hillary in GE.

A fair number won't, tired of having to hold their nose to vote for a corporatist yet again only to be thrown under the bus for another 4 years. It does get old.
A lot of Sanders support is Independants, especially youth, that have no particular loyalty to the Democratic Party or they would be Democrats all along.
And Sanders does pull in some Republican support.
Sanders isn't Obama, but he does pull in enough support from a broad coalition that he can win the GE. Clinton is also no Obama. She'll pull in far fewer Independants, zero republicans, and fails to inspire many progressive/liberal Democrats. She cannot get the turnout she needs to win, especially since republicans have been waiting 24 years just for this moment to vote against her. It won't matter who heads the GOP ticket. It'll be a bloodbath for Democrats all down the ticket.

[JPnoodleman]

21. My great grandmother has a lot of admiration for Bernie Sanders, ....

Though she never says who she is going to vote for. She has been declaring since 1996 apparently that she won't live to election day anyway so proclaiming a candidate will jinx her. Now at 101 years old, maybe she was right to not jinx it.

[TeddyR]

26. If you don't want to vote for the individual Democrats nominate for the presidency

Then you aren't a true Democrat. I prefer Bernie but I'll vote for whomever wins the nomination, be it Hillary, Bernie, Biden, Warren or someone else. Better that than a President Trump or Cruz. But if you want to stand on misguided principle and see President Trump gut the ACA, or undo same-sex marriage, then stay home and, when you do, join a party other than the Democrats. I can envision one scenario that I don't vote for the Dem nominee, and that is if Hillary wins and is indicted before the election, in which case I expect Biden or someone else to step in.

[yourout]

27. I see no way the young vote turns out if Hillary wins the primary.

Whether or not she can win the General without them I do not know but without the young vote down ballot will be a blood bath.

We have a chance to take back the Senate but only if Bernie is the nominee.

[21st Century Poet]

30. Young people are important.

This is an important point. Young people are notoriously apathetic when it comes to voting. The fact that Bernie Sanders has energised them is a great boon for the Democratic Party. It would be a great pity for the party to potentially lose all those votes now, and I don't see how young people will remain politically engaged if Hillary Clinton is the nominee.

[HooptieWagon]

32. Truth ^

[silvershadow]

34. ^THIS. nt

[Rosa Luxemburg]

39. Hillary does not appeal across the political spectrum

she would have to rely on a older population of Democratic voters to come out

[eridani]

40. Depends on what you mean by "be there for"

I've convinced a lot of the alienated young voters in local Sanders groups do vote for the Dem candidate whoever it is, and have gotten through to them (I think). However, what they will NOT be doing is doorbelling, phonebanking and donating a few bucks every now and then.

[DaGimpster]

45. My wife is a life long Democrat, and a strong '08 HRC supporter

And is now starting to grumble she might not vote if Hillary is the nominee. The comments of her surrogates, particularly over this weekend, have really soured her mood. She was very offended being equated as a traitor to her gender if she didn't vote for Hillary

I am still going to vote straight D ticket, no matter what the outcome.