Destroy this meme, "Bernie can't win in the general election, that's why we need

[Cleita]

Hillary." What they are saying is that Bernie can't beat Jeb or the rest of the Republican clown car so we have to hold our noses and vote for the corporate candidate with the fat campaign war chest instead.

My contribution for rebuttal is that Bernie doesn't need all the propaganda funds. His message is so populist and sincere that the majority of Americans will respond to it. Former candidates with oodles of money have lost in the past. Money does not trump all.

Feel free to add your reasons for why this meme is untrue.

[Jumpin Jack Flash]

1. Hillary is using surrogates to attack Bernie..

and yet Bernie is doing exceptionally well, and has no surrogates....

Amazing isn't it? That's usually the first line of attack...

[Spitfire of ATJ]

31. I've seen a few newbies show up that read like a bot.

[Kalidurga]

2. Bernie can win and we will show up an any and all rallies within our travelling distance.

I will be at a canvasing meeting on Wednesday. We will be talking a whole lot over the next couple of months on how to reach a whole lot of people without a whole lot of money. And Bernie will win because he is right and everyone else is wrong (except O'Malley he is mostly right too).

[Cleita]

3. That's our plan here too, just to show up at places where people gather and

talk to them about Bernie. It costs practically nothing.

[Kalidurga]

4. I made a Bernie button I am going to start wearing it everywhere.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

32. They're available at his site for $5...

https://store.berniesanders.com/product/button

[Kalidurga]

33. I like my homemade. I can wear that and make a 5 dollar donation w/out getting a button back.

[Wilms]

5. Repub neighbor is interested in Bernie.

He'd be really unhappy with Bush being the repub nom. And he will not vote for Clinton.

[Cleita]

6. Many Republicans are. Maybe it's because he was an Independent for so long,

they think he's not partisan.

[Wilms]

8. In my neighbors case, he digs the honesty.

He doesn't like everything Bernie says, but he likes a lot of it and believes it's sincere.

Who am I to argue with that?

[cui bono]

11. +1

Same with my coworker.

[appalachiablue]

7. Bernie gives people someone to Vote FOR, which is an incentive and distinct advantage.

Integrity, concern for people, a fighter against inequality and oligarchy, and a refreshing face make Bernie a very appealing choice in a race with likely candidates from two familiar political dynasties.

People recognize in him a genuine populist leader and fighter working to improve their lives, their children's lives and the environment we live in. Money is Not everything. Kids, this country is in bad shape, and if the political gravy train between Washington and Wall Street isn't stopped we may never get out of the ditch we're in. And it's a big ditch.

[Cleita]

15. And the ditch is getting deeper too. eom

[appalachiablue]

20. Very deep, as in Grand Canyon deep. Scary.

[leftupnorth]

9. I think we all know how much the right hates Secretary Clinton

They will be out in force to vote against her.

Bernie actually appeals to Republicans, in my experience. I know 4 people personally that vote republican most of the time, and they've all DONATED to Bernie. These people aren't self identified leftists in any sense of the word. They even disagree with Bernie on quite a few things, but they get it when it comes to campaign finance and trade.

Now, that, to me, means there are people on the 'other side' that will vote for Bernie. Between them and the rest of the Democratic coalition, we could really turn the tide of corporate control in this country for good.

I don't see any of the other candidates energizing people on both sides like Bernie does. Everyone recognizes honesty when they see and hear it, even if they don't agree. They'll vote for that over what they've come to realize is cynical pandering from establishment candidates any day.

[Cleita]

18. Yes, Republicans may also even vote for Bernie from the scuttlebutt I'm getting even on this

Last edited Mon Jun 15, 2015, 03:41 PM - Edit history (1)

thread. I listen to liberal talk radio in the morning and there have been callers in who say they are Republican or Liberatarian but like Bernie and are looking at him as their candidate. It sort of makes sense though that Bernie has been able to win for more than 25 years in a state that is rural and conservative for the most part. It's something to think about.

[SoapBox]

25. Several neighbors...

Female, widowed or divorced (and I do like them and consider them friends) have all said about HRC...can't stand the woman and would never vote for her.

I know 2 would generally vote Repug...I'm thinking this is my chance to try and get them to look at Bernie.

I've posted for ages...there is Bush burnout but not as much as HRC burnout. If it's HRC and Jebbie, he would win.

(He's gonna come off as the smart one of the Krazy Kandidates...back to that old Compassionate Conservative bullshit.)

[SheilaT]

10. Bernie can win. Which is not to say he will win,

that's something else entirely.

I honestly find the meme "Hillary can win. Hillary is the only Democrat who can win. Therefore, ignore any and all other contenders and submit to the collective, I mean inevitable." I could be very wrong, but I think her supporters vastly under estimate just how hated she is out there, just how vulnerable she is to many attacks, some fair, some not. She is doing slightly better this time around in terms of not screwing up, but she has still shown a remarkable degree of tone-deafness and obliviousness to many issues. In her defense, she's doing a good job of jumping on the bandwagon, carefully saying what she's been told needs to be said. To me, there is a huge lack of sincerity on her part, and it's scary.

[BrotherIvan]

14. +1

I said in another thread, that if the rest of her campaign is as horribly run as the last two months, she is going to have a very rough time. Her campaign thinks that fluff will get her across the finish line. They are trying to emulate Obama but obviously have no idea why he won. They think that hiding from the press doesn't remind people that they don't really trust her much. They think optics are more important that policy, and judging by the loyalists, that is mostly true.

Once the gloves come off for real, look for lots of party shenanigans. That is going to be the way she will win. She made a deal at the convention and she expects them to honor the deal. Voters be damned.

[jeff47]

12. It's untrue because we can count to 270.

To win the presidency, you need 270 electoral votes. Your nationwide popularity is irrelevant for whether or not you are sworn in.

We don't need a candidate that can try to make Texas competitive in 2016. Because we won't win Texas in 2016, just like the Republican won't win NY or CA in 2016. And we don't need to win Texas in 2016.

Yes, Clinton polls higher than the Republican field. But we don't have a national popular vote. She gets just as many electoral votes from CA with a 90-10 win as a 51-49 win, but that 90-10 scenario looks great in national polling.

Instead, the race to 270 is critical, and she's much more of a risk there.

Right now, the Democratic nominee has 257 electoral votes locked up. They're the electoral votes for the "blue" states. The only way those votes go to a Republican is an incompetent Democratic campaign.

To win, the Democratic nominee needs 1 large "purple" state, or 2 small "purple" states. Get VA and you win. Get CO and IA and you win. Each of those are pretty easy for the Democratic nominee - VA needs to overwhelm rural turnout with DC suburb turnout, and both CO and IA respond well to populism.

The Republican candidate starts with 149 electoral votes locked up - the "red" states. Lower population, so fewer electoral votes. To reach 270, the Republican candidate needs all 10 "purple" states, and needs to turn one blue state. That is going to be very, very hard. It's one of the main reasons the Republican field is such a clown car - the people who can count all the way to 270 are staying out of the race.

There's only one glimmer of hope for the Republicans: Turnout. If Democrats stay home and Republicans turn out, they can win.

The centrism that has guided Clinton's career has been shown to hurt turnout in 2014, 2010, 2004, 2002 and 2000. It relies on voting against the Republican instead of voting for the Democrat. "Crazy liberal ideas" won in 2008 and 2006 via higher Democratic turnout - Democrats gave candidates to vote for, instead of "vote against the Republican".

If Clinton can't pull off her sudden conversion to populism, then she may cripple Democratic turnout. At the same time, Republicans have spent the last 30 years convincing their base that the Clintons are Satan incarnate. Her presence on the ballot would be a huge boost to Republican turnout. Risking losses in "rural/urban divide" states that make up all of the "purple" states and some of the "blue" states.

[Cleita]

16. Good reasoning on the electoral vote. I hope everyone reads this as to why we have to turn out.

I think Bernie will get the turnout. Many Democrats I know are very lukewarm about Hillary and may not bother to vote if she's the candidate. That is worrisome.

[BrotherIvan]

17. This!!! A million times this!!!!^^^^^^^^^^^^

People need to understand this fully. I tried with an OP that didn't go very far.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12801719

I may try it again some day or you might be more successful.

Democrats need to understand the math to realize that whomever wins the primary will win the general. That means, they should vote their principles. And more especially because the Republican field is so loathsome, the general will be a mud fight, but not the precarious climb so many think it will be. Just as Obama vs McCain or Romney were really not close at all. It is only a horse race for the media.

It's simple ARITHMETIC!

[jeff47]

19. To be fair, I'm stealing a lot of analysis from that same source. (nt)

[BrotherIvan]

23. It is a very logical and compelling argument

People are internalizing the propaganda that the country is center right when every poll shows that the voters are not.

THIS poll shows what our government's priorities are. And these are supposed to be left-leaning elites. Think about the truly neoliberal wealthy and it explains everything.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026835829

People, especially those who are trying to be politically active, need to understand these basic concepts and the media has done it's best to make sure that they don't.

[Ed Suspicious]

29. Very good post on the realities of our electoral challenge.

Thank you.

[TBF]

13. Nothing has changed since 2008

She was beatable then and she is beatable now.

1. The right has an irrational hatred towards her and will dig up all the scandals.

2. The right will also attempt to drum up hate with the "socialist" label but Bernie is the best anecdote to that. Everyone can see his record from the past quarter century and know what he stands for. What you see is what you get.

Given these two choices for candidates I prefer Bernie because not only are my issues in alignment with what he believes in, but he actually has been in Congress nearly 25 years. Hillary has fine professional service, but other than the State Dept has she really had a job in which she has been responsible for a large entity? I guess board of directors at Walmart might count, but that is not something I'd want to emphasize on my resume.

[ReallyIAmAnOptimist]

22. Right. Democrats (and Americans) voted for change 8 years ago...

...and are still waiting for most of it.

Hillary is a step backwards from BO (which is why she lost to him then), and it's the same now.

The country is in crisis. We can't afford another Republican-lite Dem! Bernie is the real deal, a real leader. He can (and I think will) surprise the "experts" and win the nomination, just like BO did.

[SoapBox]

26. Yes...

I too think she is beatable.

And about the Haters attacking the Socialiist...people are kinda dumb and I'm not even sure they would know a "Populist" agenda if it hit them and I've seeing that word a lot in articles.

So I'm alway just going to say, Popular agenda.

[rbnyc]

21. I'll say it again, if HRC goes to the general, voters stay home.

Bernie's hurdle is the primary, not the general. Many people.feel that both major parties work for the same wealthy elites and they are not registered as Democrats. In states with closed primaries, we need to get these voters to register as Democrats.

Once he wins the primary, he inspires high voter turnout which favors the left.

Bernie is our best chance to defeat the Republican.

[woodsprite]

24. Obama was "Change we can believe in!", Bernie is "Change we can depend on!" n/t

[SoapBox]

27. ^This^

[JDPriestly]

28. Bernie can win in the general election because Americans are fed up and broke and

want someone who will fight for them.

Bernie is showing that he will fight for them, for me, for you, for us, and that is what all Americans from the Teapartiers to the pee-on-the-TPPers want.

[swilton]

30. Two reasons

1. Hillary's negatives (in both parties) have always been a liability.
2. Ralph Nader's new book Unstoppable on building a right-left alliance.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/book-review-unstoppable-by-ralph-nader-on-building-a-left-right-alliance/2014/05/30/08587b08-e11e-11e3-8dcc-d6b7fede081a_story.html

[Enthusiast]

34. You are right, Cleita!

People will respond to sincerity. There have had quite enough of the alternative.