General Discussion

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)

172. I also highly doubt an important scientific observatory breaks on "red/blue" lines.

Reply to ellisonz (Reply #171)

Tue Apr 7, 2015, 02:39 AM

Apr 2015

Last edited Tue Apr 7, 2015, 03:49 AM - Edit history (1)

(Edited to add: I think this thread is proof enough, of that)

Petition away, I guess we'll see.

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212 replies

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Stop The Construction the TMT Telescope on Mauna Kea and the Arrest of Mauna Kea Protectors [View all] ellisonz Apr 2015 OP

I personally am glad to see this advance in astronomy. dolphinsandtuna Apr 2015 #1

But at what cost? ellisonz Apr 2015 #2

Please explain your objections. More clearly... Adrahil Apr 2015 #126

Most in this thread who say that are not listening to the answers. The US has nearly wiped out... Hekate Apr 2015 #198

I support the building of the TMT. longship Apr 2015 #3

There are 13 already. ellisonz Apr 2015 #5

Well, I respectfully disagree. longship Apr 2015 #11

"Hawaiians should be proud to host it." ellisonz Apr 2015 #18

Again, there have been world class scopes on Mauna Kea since the 60's. longship Apr 2015 #24

"It is a little late to start claiming foul." ellisonz Apr 2015 #28

Sorry. I unequivocally support the TMT. longship Apr 2015 #30

I support TMT Katashi_itto Apr 2015 #52

Ellisonz, the dynamic you are arguing against is the mainstay of American practice. freshwest Apr 2015 #109

The Mauna Kea observatory is above 4000 meters. longship Apr 2015 #112

I may have missed it, but you might do better to tell Ellisonz their belief system is medieval. freshwest Apr 2015 #114

Certainly there will be no pollution. longship Apr 2015 #116

That's not true. The amount of chemicals used on the telescopes is significant. ellisonz Apr 2015 #167

As A Amateur Astronomer, The TMT Is A Huge Step Forward cantbeserious Apr 2015 #4

But at what cost? ellisonz Apr 2015 #6

Better To Spend The Money On Science Than War And Welfare For The 1% cantbeserious Apr 2015 #7

But money on science at what cost? ellisonz Apr 2015 #8

You keep saying that. "At what cost?" Callmecrazy Apr 2015 #9

This one is as big as all the others combined. ellisonz Apr 2015 #14

There are numerous archeological sites on everywhere on this planet. jeff47 Apr 2015 #157

There are hundreds if not thousands of protected sites. ellisonz Apr 2015 #185

Once again, why must this sacred ground be protected, when other sacred ground is free to develop? jeff47 Apr 2015 #187

Here is the answer to your question: ellisonz Apr 2015 #189

So this is where Hawaiians speak to their gods. KamaAina Apr 2015 #194

What Controversy - What Ethics - Telescopes Are Already On The Mountain Top cantbeserious Apr 2015 #10

There is the point of contention... Chan790 Apr 2015 #34

"We need this telescope" ellisonz Apr 2015 #67

To make discoveries that will forever change us all. longship Apr 2015 #78

You're very presumptive. ellisonz Apr 2015 #80

Know everything??????? longship Apr 2015 #81

"You appear to be woefully ignorant of science." ellisonz Apr 2015 #83

I notice that you continue to frame in cultural impact. longship Apr 2015 #88

This is not a fringe protest. ellisonz Apr 2015 #95

Hmm! No ecological pleas there. Only cultural ones. longship Apr 2015 #98

You asked about the cultural component... ellisonz Apr 2015 #100

I have a healthy respect for intelligent discussion. longship Apr 2015 #105

Hey, don't poop on the lichens. I've spent an inordinate amount of my life studying lichens. :) LTX Apr 2015 #123

For the lichens: ellisonz Apr 2015 #173

From the baseline survey you appended: LTX Apr 2015 #200

Um...standing on the shoulders of giants? randome Apr 2015 #12

The Hawaiians decided. ellisonz Apr 2015 #15

A sacred place that's off-limits to everyone except the high priests who declared it sacred. LTX Apr 2015 #79

Or Ken Ham's Creation Museum. nt longship Apr 2015 #117

I admit that when I see an observatory on a peak... Adrahil Apr 2015 #135

Personally, I would rather see this telescope built as opposed to more vacation houses. nt Quackers Apr 2015 #13

Amen! Nictuku Apr 2015 #53

Believe it or not, I heard about this on the news here in Philly BumRushDaShow Apr 2015 #16

BumRush, you are one of the few Mainland haoles that actually gets the problem.... Hekate Apr 2015 #190

Next year will be 30 years BumRushDaShow Apr 2015 #201

Mahalo again. I encapsulated some of my own history in Post 198, if you are interested. nt Hekate Apr 2015 #203

I did see that BumRushDaShow Apr 2015 #205

i support astronomy and science. Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #17

What are we really supposed to learn from it? ellisonz Apr 2015 #19

Yes, and there's a reason it's already an established center for Astronomy, the climatalogical and Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #22

So we don't know what we'll learn? ellisonz Apr 2015 #25

I think science and knowledge pretty much always pay off. Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #26

That's debatable. ellisonz Apr 2015 #29

We're kind of going around and around. "is bigger always better"? No, but when you are talking about Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #32

^^^This expresses my feelings on the project Stargazer09 Apr 2015 #40

Because of astronomy you carry a digital detector in your cell phone. longship Apr 2015 #33

There are MANY earth-crossing asteroids out there Stargazer09 Apr 2015 #41

It's going to save the planet from an asteroid? ellisonz Apr 2015 #68

Good lord greytdemocrat Apr 2015 #208

With telescopes "aperture is everything" Adrahil Apr 2015 #146

The summit is not all that big and a distinct environment. ellisonz Apr 2015 #168

"sacred ground" cleanhippie Apr 2015 #47

This is the largest telescope in the world (the current largest is ten metres). Spider Jerusalem Apr 2015 #102

It's a big ass mountain.... Seems like plenty of room up there. Adrahil Apr 2015 #127

What did the gentleman mean that the police would be held accountable for war crimes? nt Quackers Apr 2015 #20

He means that the United States illegally overthrew and annexed the Kingdom of Hawaii. ellisonz Apr 2015 #23

That's kind of a different battle, though, isn't it. Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #27

Not from their perspective. ellisonz Apr 2015 #69

Does Hawaii have local government that is democratically elected? Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #91

Does the United States have a democratically elected government? ellisonz Apr 2015 #96

The population of Hawaii is around 1.5 Million, is it not? Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #103

Total population isn't so important. ellisonz Apr 2015 #171

I also highly doubt an important scientific observatory breaks on "red/blue" lines. Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #172

Dumb argument against the telescope, IMO n/t SickOfTheOnePct Apr 2015 #36

Why? ellisonz Apr 2015 #70

"the desecration of Mauna Kea is a war crime." cleanhippie Apr 2015 #48

The relocation of Native Americans and despoliation of their lands was a war crime. ... Hekate Apr 2015 #196

Its a cool looking building Travis_0004 Apr 2015 #21

Sorry, I can't sign that as I support the project. obxhead Apr 2015 #31

I fully support the TMT telescope FLPanhandle Apr 2015 #35

I am trained as a physicist and I signed. salib Apr 2015 #37

Also, just saw a thread with the heading "It's easier to beg forgivness than ask permission" salib Apr 2015 #39

Many of the surrounding community are fine with it. nt Logical Apr 2015 #54

But were the asked. Did anyone get a consensus? salib Apr 2015 #82

Yes, that's why the previous observatories were built there. jeff47 Apr 2015 #158

Actually, that sounds like a "no" to me. salib Apr 2015 #163

It's difficult to consider the objections genuine jeff47 Apr 2015 #181

It's not out of the blue at all. The native Hawai'ian movement has been building for 40 years, afaik. Hekate Apr 2015 #211

Hawaiians have a consensus culture, so you've made a very astute observation. I'd say not. Hekate Apr 2015 #212

Thank you for speaking up. ellisonz Apr 2015 #72

I support the building of the TMT. marble falls Apr 2015 #38

What better use for "sacred ground" than exploring the hidden secrets of our vast cosmos? Fumesucker Apr 2015 #42

Are you suggesting making that arguement to the people invloved... stone space Apr 2015 #51

It's just my opinion, it may or may not be an effective argument with some people Fumesucker Apr 2015 #58

It may be an effective arguement, and it may not. stone space Apr 2015 #59

Why not? Adrahil Apr 2015 #128

Nothing wrong with it at all. It's a quite different approach, however, since... stone space Apr 2015 #143

Well, trying to convince them doesn't necessarily they get the final say.... Adrahil Apr 2015 #147

I love Hawaii, but I also love astronomy so I can't sign. Vinca Apr 2015 #43

The Universe is unique sacred ground jberryhill Apr 2015 #44

Thank you. Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #92

Scientists have run out of mountains, this is the only one left. bananas Apr 2015 #45

People distrust scientists because of their own ignorance. nt Logical Apr 2015 #55

Most people do support this though FLPanhandle Apr 2015 #56

Are you serious? Or is that satire? tkmorris Apr 2015 #60

... NuclearDem Apr 2015 #141

ROFLMAO snooper2 Apr 2015 #154

Nope, I rule in favor of science! nt Logical Apr 2015 #46

I support building the telescope... Sorry Snow Leopard Apr 2015 #49

Science before Superstition. cleanhippie Apr 2015 #50

+1 FLPanhandle Apr 2015 #57

No. Support the construction...nt SidDithers Apr 2015 #61

Guess this thread didn't go quite as you planned.... philosslayer Apr 2015 #62

+1 to that! ThoughtCriminal Apr 2015 #63

I'm not surprised. ellisonz Apr 2015 #71

It almost sums it up obxhead Apr 2015 #85

If other people in other places want it, let them have it. ellisonz Apr 2015 #87

Are you new to the protest obxhead Apr 2015 #89

I can almost guarantee if Obama came out and said we should preserve this land for cultural liberal_at_heart Apr 2015 #90

No, it wouldn't. I've heard several folks make claims like that. It wouldn't change anyone's opinion stevenleser Apr 2015 #188

If a telescope is seeing farther than we have ever seen before, how is anyone going to know Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #107

We didn't know what we would learn with Hubble either. Adrahil Apr 2015 #129

Sad to see so many on here quick to chose science over people. liberal_at_heart Apr 2015 #64

Thank you for speaking up. ellisonz Apr 2015 #73

It's a big mountain. Plenty of room for both. Adrahil Apr 2015 #130

This observatory will not make culture disappear jberryhill Apr 2015 #204

While science is great and all... Revanchist Apr 2015 #65

+1 liberal_at_heart Apr 2015 #66

The summit of Mauna Kea has hosted an observatory since the 1960's. longship Apr 2015 #118

It isn't "their land" jeff47 Apr 2015 #156

Let both sides argue their case. Then let the people of Hawaii decide by vote. Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2015 #74

That is correct. ellisonz Apr 2015 #76

Seems like a good project to me. n/t Throd Apr 2015 #75

Absolutely not. I always support science over superstition. MicaelS Apr 2015 #77

no I'm sure it doesn't. Many on here care more about science than people. liberal_at_heart Apr 2015 #86

How many people really oppose this? Travis_0004 Apr 2015 #179

I've never understood the concept of "sacred ground", or "holidays" (Holy days). eppur_se_muova Apr 2015 #84

I, too, support the telescope. Sorry. temporary311 Apr 2015 #93

This is completely different from the Moon Bombing. ellisonz Apr 2015 #94

Actually... ThoughtCriminal Apr 2015 #97

What is the "significant impact?" Adrahil Apr 2015 #148

No, sorry. beam me up scottie Apr 2015 #99

I support the building of the telescope. Agnosticsherbet Apr 2015 #101

Thanks for sharing this. It's such a familiar scene. Cheese Sandwich Apr 2015 #104

This petition is utter rubbish. longship Apr 2015 #110

Is there such as thing as a religious commitment to building gigantic telescopes? Cheese Sandwich Apr 2015 #113

The mountain is already festooned with telescopes. longship Apr 2015 #119

The new telescope is bigger than all the others combined... Cheese Sandwich Apr 2015 #122

No, it's not a big difference jeff47 Apr 2015 #159

Preservation of natural spaces doesn't necessitate large amounts of flora and fauna living there. KittyWampus Apr 2015 #134

Thank you. ellisonz Apr 2015 #170

You're welcome. ellisonz Apr 2015 #184

There is a huge movement in the US that considers Stem Cells to be sacred SomethingFishy Apr 2015 #106

If it were Christians opposing a telescope being built on "sacred ground", Nye Bevan Apr 2015 #108

It's not about whether something is actually sacred or not. I am not Hawaiian. I don't consider liberal_at_heart Apr 2015 #111

Or maybe they could embrace the fact that they had the greatest observatory on the planet. longship Apr 2015 #115

The culture isn't going to disappear because another telescope is built on Mauna Kea. Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #121

I'm not getting how putting a telescope there is "destroying a minority culture" (nt) Nye Bevan Apr 2015 #124

The TMT will occupy a SMALL portion of the mountain. Adrahil Apr 2015 #133

Mahalo for bringing this here. I'll check your links later on -- didn't know there was a controversy Hekate Apr 2015 #120

Aloha Hekate! ellisonz Apr 2015 #162

I'll take advanced scientific research abilities over superstitious hoodoo. linuxman Apr 2015 #125

Were native Hawaiians ever compensated for taking this location where other telescopes were KittyWampus Apr 2015 #131

Telescopes serve different purposes... plus only one team can use the telescope at a time. Adrahil Apr 2015 #150

Native Hawai'ians were never compensated for diddly squat. Hawai'i was annexed without treaties... Hekate Apr 2015 #177

I don't know where I stand on this, but I do think it's odd how dismissive people here are of the DanTex Apr 2015 #132

Imagine if it was taking an indigenous people's land for oil or diamonds. KittyWampus Apr 2015 #136

Not getting how putting a telescope on a mountain is like "tearing the Mona Lisa apart". (nt) Nye Bevan Apr 2015 #137

Gigantic telescope in a landscape. Despoiling the environment. KittyWampus Apr 2015 #138

Are there any mountains, anywhere, where you would be happy to erect a telescope? (nt) Nye Bevan Apr 2015 #140

I'd suggest replacing all the smaller telescopes with one big one. And I'm not unsympathetic KittyWampus Apr 2015 #142

That would be a huge setback, honestly Godhumor Apr 2015 #145

On the other hand, are there any mountains where you would object to a telescope being built? DanTex Apr 2015 #144

It's big, for sure, but Mauna Kea is truly a gargantuan mountain. Adrahil Apr 2015 #151

In a way it's worse. The Mona Lisa is just some paint on a canvas. DanTex Apr 2015 #139

My understanding is that Native Hawaiians are not all of the same mind. Adrahil Apr 2015 #149

Why wouldn't those people be at the forefront? ellisonz Apr 2015 #164

I've read the site plan.... Adrahil Apr 2015 #165

Of course the claim is minimal impact... ellisonz Apr 2015 #166

I think DU is being pretty tolerant of a lot of "science is overrated" mumbo jumbo ProudToBeBlueInRhody Apr 2015 #169

How on earth is the TMT a monstrosity? NuclearDem Apr 2015 #152

No thanks. I prefer that they build the telescope FBaggins Apr 2015 #153

Use mountain tops for.... NCTraveler Apr 2015 #155

West Virginia? So the Hawai'ian people should wait till their land is strip mined before speaking? Hekate Apr 2015 #174

Please look at what has happened in WV. NCTraveler Apr 2015 #180

Please see my Post 176. It was you who brought up WV, 6000 miles away. Hekate Apr 2015 #182

That's gotta be the most non-violent, respectful, peaceful arresting of protestors DanTex Apr 2015 #160

Yes it most certainly is. I wish that the posters here would think hard about why. nt Hekate Apr 2015 #178

Just passed 10,000 signatures. ellisonz Apr 2015 #161

That many luddites? amazing...... Rosco T. Apr 2015 #175

As much as I am pro-science, I am even more troubled by the arrogance and dismissiveness ... Hekate Apr 2015 #176

If this was a bunch of Christians or Muslims protesting some science project... MicaelS Apr 2015 #199

Christians and Muslims comprise a large percentage of the world's population. Hawaiians... Hekate Apr 2015 #202

Almost 15,000 signatures now. ellisonz Apr 2015 #183

If the Hawaiian gods don't like it, can't they do something about it, being gods and all? stevenleser Apr 2015 #186

Speaking of sacrilege... ellisonz Apr 2015 #192

Malala was shot, but same t'ing as acid. They tried to silence her. By the way, Ellison... Hekate Apr 2015 #195

Believe it or not, there is a Hawaiian snow goddess, Poliahu KamaAina Apr 2015 #193

I am for it olddots Apr 2015 #191

Just as I thought GWB was dead wrong with his banning of stem cell research on religious grounds Egnever Apr 2015 #197

I also support the building of this telescope. Owl Apr 2015 #206

Breaking: Construction temporarily halted BumRushDaShow Apr 2015 #207

That's actually a good thing. They need to be able to talk this over and reach mutual.... Hekate Apr 2015 #209

YES! ellisonz Apr 2015 #210