General Discussion

gulliver

(13,186 posts) Sun Jan 8, 2017, 03:07 PM Jan 2017

Hillary has the right and almost an obligation to say Trump didn't win. [View all]

I'll just say what I assume a lot of people are thinking, hopefully Clinton herself. I am strongly in favor of Hillary Clinton asserting that she won the election.

FACT 1: The election was decided on 39,659 votes spread across three states, barely giving Trump the electoral college votes he needed.

FACT 2: Russian computer hacking and media manipulation attacks were against Hillary Clinton and resulted in steady negative news coverage against her. There is a preponderance of evidence that an intolerable crime was committed by Russia against the United States, and it cost Clinton not just 39,659 votes but probably a lot more.

FACT 3: Trump said, "In addition to winning the electoral college in a landslide, I won the popular vote if you deduct the millions of people who voted illegally." Mr. Trump has a guilty mind. His lie shows that.

Hillary should not be concerned about airy political "norms" here. There is nothing stopping her from saying she won. There is every reason why she should say she won. She would be protecting real people and real truth in real reality.

Right now, the Republicans are saying that the intelligence report on Russian hacking is politically motivated on the part of the Dems. Right now, the Republicans are saying that Democrats trying to hold Trump's nominees to traditional ethical standards are politically motivated. A pattern is emerging. If we let the Republicans get away with it, they are going to abuse their power and the truth itself without bounds. They are going to hold their heads high when they should be looking at their shoes and glancing over their shoulders for cops, when they should be looking upward to watch for lightning bolts.

Hillary is in a unique position here. Obama can't say she won if she doesn't say it first. Democrats can't say she won if she doesn't. If Hillary Clinton says she won, she puts a harpoon in Trump and his Republicans that they are going to have a hard time getting out. People know truth when they hear it.

Given Trump's debate record with Clinton, I wonder how he would do in a media fight where Clinton has the truth on her side and won't go away. I sure would like to find out how that would go.

120 replies

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Hillary has the right and almost an obligation to say Trump didn't win. [View all] gulliver Jan 2017 OP

She didn't win BainsBane Jan 2017 #1

Yeah, she did. gulliver Jan 2017 #4

Other factors in Trump's theft of the election is voter suppression through Akamai Jan 2017 #82

Hillary Clinton didn't win the Election... brooklynite Jan 2017 #119

Screw the EC.... Trump is an illegitimate usurper. eniwetok Jan 2017 #12

Neera Tanden says BainsBane Jan 2017 #14

she's on record... eniwetok Jan 2017 #16

What about children and families BainsBane Jan 2017 #23

seriously? eniwetok Jan 2017 #56

"Who else has the moral authority"? You just finished saying her credibility was all undermined. Hekate Jan 2017 #115

She's not on record saying she'll accept Russian interference. The acceptance was on condition that uponit7771 Jan 2017 #31

HRC "better not retire from public life"? My gods, the chutzpah. Hekate Jan 2017 #114

Relative to facts that aren't in dispute regarding Russia and voter suppression we don't know that.. uponit7771 Jan 2017 #17

There isn't going to be a revote BainsBane Jan 2017 #25

Congress isn't the last word on Benedict Donald being in office, the registrar is on the 19th uponit7771 Jan 2017 #26

what are you talking about? What "registrar"? onenote Jan 2017 #61

I have made this point here many tmes. A number of people have asked SlimJimmy Jan 2017 #109

I agree. BainsBane Jan 2017 #110

There is absolutely no constitutional basis for a "re-vote". None. WillowTree Jan 2017 #43

Yes there is, were promised free and fair elections and this wasn't one by far uponit7771 Jan 2017 #44

No.......constitutional.......basis. WillowTree Jan 2017 #49

There is no way to have a re-vote SickOfTheOnePct Jan 2017 #75

Yes there is, it can be sued for just like everything else in this country. There's no remedy uponit7771 Jan 2017 #77

OK, I'll play SickOfTheOnePct Jan 2017 #87

hacking of state and local electoral boards by Russia. The extent of effect is irrelevant that they uponit7771 Jan 2017 #91

As odious as voter suppression is SickOfTheOnePct Jan 2017 #96

Abridging the right to vote is never legal no matter what the state laws are and the hacks themselve uponit7771 Jan 2017 #98

It's not Hillary's role to say she won, wouldn't be effective MrPurple Jan 2017 #2

What happened to the truth? Hillary isn't going to say it because it is factually false. BzaDem Jan 2017 #3

We need to argue for the truth. She can say it any way she wants. gulliver Jan 2017 #5

By "pre-election" "vote count manipulation", do you mean "convincing people to vote for a candidate" BzaDem Jan 2017 #15

What's so unusual about fraud? gulliver Jan 2017 #45

I'm not sure there would be any cause of action. BzaDem Jan 2017 #64

What happened to free and fair elections? That didn't happen either and that at the least sides with uponit7771 Jan 2017 #18

How was the election not free and fair? BzaDem Jan 2017 #33

Really?!!! Wanna OP this question?! ... see what you get. Facts not in dispute: Comey, Voter suppres uponit7771 Jan 2017 #34

I fully acknowledge that all three happened, and that they were likely decisive. BzaDem Jan 2017 #37

Good, that's enough for a claim that this was NOT a free and fair election... period uponit7771 Jan 2017 #38

If Comey and Putin make it so the election was not a free and fair one, what about Fox News? BzaDem Jan 2017 #41

Comey and Russia's actions aren't covered by 1st amendment uponit7771 Jan 2017 #42

The first amendment applies to Comey's statements and Russia's leaks (but not the hacking). BzaDem Jan 2017 #55

They sure don't...Comey was speaking as an agent of the fbi not a regular citizen uponit7771 Jan 2017 #59

Yes, but he was stating a fact (that the investigation was reopened). BzaDem Jan 2017 #66

Irrelevant, his statement of fact as an agent of the FBI isn't covered by the 1st amendment where uponit7771 Jan 2017 #68

There is no basis in the Constitution to challenge it. Alice11111 Jan 2017 #79

This is false on its face, consent of the governed is predicated off of free and fair elections uponit7771 Jan 2017 #86

Actually, the statement that there is no basis in the Constitution for individuals to challenge onenote Jan 2017 #111

Because she's a woman of integrity? It's the media's job to delegitimize this Russian asset, aka... Tarheel_Dem Jan 2017 #6

The media can't do it. They are trying to do their job, but it isn't working. gulliver Jan 2017 #7

We just disagree. Tarheel_Dem Jan 2017 #8

Looks that way gulliver Jan 2017 #11

Its not the medias job to formally request a re-vote without Russian access to state and local ... uponit7771 Jan 2017 #20

There's no integrity twisting the facts about Russia interfering with our election. That's enough fo uponit7771 Jan 2017 #24

Did Al Gore declare victory when he was cheated? Generic Brad Jan 2017 #9

HRC's victory gives her standing to lead the opposition to Trump. eniwetok Jan 2017 #13

"Moral victory" gulliver Jan 2017 #19

The outcome is not set in stone till the 19th uponit7771 Jan 2017 #21

Nothing happens Jan 19. Nothing. Nada. onenote Jan 2017 #81

Hillary is smart enough to not twist the truth. sarisataka Jan 2017 #10

There's no twisting Russia interfered with our election on behalf of McPootyPoot, that's enough for uponit7771 Jan 2017 #22

I've read right here, by people much smarter than myself, that our Constitution makes no provision.. Tarheel_Dem Jan 2017 #27

The fix for the break doesn't have to be outlined in the constitution. That's a distraction, the .. uponit7771 Jan 2017 #28

One thing the Constitution sarisataka Jan 2017 #47

red herring, the ec vote is based off state level votes and state level electoral boards were hacke uponit7771 Jan 2017 #50

It also does not say that we have a right to vote at all loyalsister Jan 2017 #69

Then the suite can be at the state level where it holds even more water under the 15th at.... uponit7771 Jan 2017 #71

It's not a talking point it's simply true loyalsister Jan 2017 #84

True in most respects sarisataka Jan 2017 #99

"The people" is certainly a vague term loyalsister Jan 2017 #103

The constitution says no such thing. WillowTree Jan 2017 #51

Did they interfere sarisataka Jan 2017 #46

False bar, their interference is bad enough but on the side of one candidate is already proven uponit7771 Jan 2017 #48

What they did as outsiders is business as usual in ordinary campaigns loyalsister Jan 2017 #73

This is false on its face, did you read the report about Russia hacking state and local electoral uponit7771 Jan 2017 #74

Do you have uncontrovertable evidence that it changed the election results? loyalsister Jan 2017 #85

False bar, they interfered period ... that's not " consent of the governed " the extent of the ... uponit7771 Jan 2017 #88

do over is what children call for loyalsister Jan 2017 #93

A national election is not a pee wee football league game, label what you'd like this has way more uponit7771 Jan 2017 #95

That does not preclude having players who act like children loyalsister Jan 2017 #100

For free and fair elections being labeled acting like a child seems small pence. I don't think those uponit7771 Jan 2017 #102

The hacking and the release of the information are distinct acts loyalsister Jan 2017 #107

I can't keep up with your assertions about the Constitution. Would you please cite... Hekate Jan 2017 #116

She lost. Let it go. bowens43 Jan 2017 #29

No, we'll never ever let this go... she didn't lose with a free and fair election, there's no need uponit7771 Jan 2017 #30

Where in the Constitution does it create a legal right to a "free and fair" election? onenote Jan 2017 #53

that doesn't preclude HRC fighting against the GOP as a private citizen.... eniwetok Jan 2017 #60

Just because you keep saying that doesn't make it true. WillowTree Jan 2017 #58

the reference is not literal.... even trumpers know this uponit7771 Jan 2017 #62

It's also not something that one can take to court onenote Jan 2017 #63

A constitutional right is something that can be taken to court and the registration of McPootyPoot uponit7771 Jan 2017 #65

What do you think happens on the 19th? onenote Jan 2017 #67

Registration of Benedict Donald as president, before then he's a regular citizen of the US uponit7771 Jan 2017 #70

I don't know where you get the idea that something is going to happen on the 19th onenote Jan 2017 #76

I don't, that's your strawman uponit7771 Jan 2017 #80

You've mentioned the 19th three or four times in this thread onenote Jan 2017 #83

Crickets. onenote Jan 2017 #113

Please cite where in the Constitution "free and fair election" by all individual citizens is stated. Hekate Jan 2017 #117

Nope. We need to take Trump to court. gulliver Jan 2017 #32

We can also take him to the USSC, this election was also far from free and fair there are too many uponit7771 Jan 2017 #35

That's a good point to make. gulliver Jan 2017 #40

Okay, uponit7771, you and gulliver do that and then report back to us how it went. Hekate Jan 2017 #118

I'll just note all of us who didn't want to fight anything after we get stomped in 18 when we uponit7771 Jan 2017 #120

I agree. We would be better served as a party and a nation to Kilgore Jan 2017 #78

It's much better if we think of ourselves as rightful winners. gulliver Jan 2017 #92

She can't do that. HassleCat Jan 2017 #36

Peoples opinions don't matter facts do. Fact not in dispute: This was NOT a free and fair election uponit7771 Jan 2017 #39

I take the opposite view. HassleCat Jan 2017 #52

"we" don't ... conservatives do... that's thier fault... let them push bullshit and prove it uponit7771 Jan 2017 #57

Unfortunately, I agree with you. Alice11111 Jan 2017 #106

Sure she can. And she should. gulliver Jan 2017 #54

+1, fuck names by the Reich Winger traitors who say so what to Russia interference in our elections uponit7771 Jan 2017 #72

I think it's been announced that she will attend HeartachesNhangovers Jan 2017 #89

She's done. demmiblue Jan 2017 #90

It can be challenged in court under constitutional right to vote should not be abridged ... uponit7771 Jan 2017 #94

Let it go. She did... nary a peep out of her since the fauxlection. demmiblue Jan 2017 #104

Nah, this I'll never ever let go... Russia hacking our election, voter suppression and Comey is some uponit7771 Jan 2017 #105

Not successfully. onenote Jan 2017 #108

Why should she make herself look like a fool? He won under the rules. Yo_Mama Jan 2017 #97

I wonder how many "uncounted" boxes of ballots there are hidden in those red states from kimbutgar Jan 2017 #101

Remember the RW mockery of SoreLoserman? Yeah, that was fun. In the end... Hekate Jan 2017 #112