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happyslug

(14,779 posts)
60. We have unconfirmed reports they have moved back to Russia
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 12:48 AM
Jul 2014

The Missiles MAY have been moved, or MAY NOT have been moved, it is amazing that when someone says they have moved, no one produces the evidence showing such movement. With modern Satellite, it can be shown where the missiles where and how they were moved. Now exact route can NOT be so determined, Satellites fly over the area for just a few minutes and then continue on their orbit around the earth. On the other hand the photos are good enough to show where the missiles were when the spy Satellites flew over. No such photos have been produced for the simple reason the CIA and/or NSA do NOT have such photos for the Missiles were moved, but not out of the Ukraine.

As to these being ex-Ukrainian missiles, nothing in your story shows that to be untrue. I suspect the Ukraine Regular Army is so divided, units like this one could switch sides and no one would report it. That would provide such a missile system in the Ukraine with a crew who knew how to use it and STILL not be given to the rebels by Russia. I just do not see Putin giving the Rebels such a sophisticated missiles system for he would also have to send in a crew to operate the system (and for actual Air Cover Putin could keep the system in RUSSIA under his control and still cover most of the area in rebellion). Thus I see no advantage to Putin to give such a system to the Rebels, but I can see the Rebels obtaining such a system from the Regular Ukrainian army, along with a crew who knows how to operate it and the rebels themselves shooting down this plane (remember it was the third plane shot down in the last week, the first two were Military planes).

Sorry, I know enough about such systems to doubt Putin giving them to the Rebels, Putin does NOT need to for such missiles to provide air cover for the Rebels, such missiles can provide that cover while in Russia itself. Thus I suspect it is an Ukrainian crew that defected to the Rebels. The Ukrainian Government does NOT want to admit how bad such defections have been, and at the same time unwilling to dissolved its Regular Army units, to prevent the Russian Speakers going over to the rebels.

On paper, the Ukrainian Army is large enough to put down this rebellion in maybe a week at most. The reason it has not, implies to me that the commanders do NOT trust their troops for the commanders fear many would defect to the rebels. If the Ukrainian army was reliable, it could take these rebels cities within a week and put down this revolt. That the Ukrainian Army has not, and the present Government of the Ukraine decided it had to form a "National Guard" to supplement the Army, is further evidence of problems within the regular Ukrainian Army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_Ukraine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Ground_Forces

Divisions of the Ukrainian Army:



The 13th Corp is Orange, the 8th Corp is Green and the 6th crop is blue.

To see the location of Ukrainian units, before the Rebellion go to the above site for the Ukrainian Ground forces site above


The Sixth Army Corp, roughly the same borders as what the Rebels hold, no reports that these units were repelled, thus may have all defected:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Army_Corps_(Ukraine)

The Sixth Corp did have an AA unit:

1039th Anti-Aircraft Artillery

Please note, the Soviet Union had a policy of assigning units close to where they were recruited from. When the Ukraine became independent it just changed the name of the units within the Ukraine. Other changes have occurred since, but I suspect most of the Sixth Corp was Russian Speaking (if not all Russian Speaking) and defected enmass.

The Crimea was also within the Sixth Corp area of Control. The failure of any troops coming to the Aid of the Ukrainian forces in the Crimea, implies the Sixth Crop did NOT oppose the take over (or it was so divided in loyalties that it could not move).

Just a comment that this AA missile system did exist in the Eastern Ukraine and it is possible it was a Ukrainian Missile not a Russian Missile.

I assume Kyiv is Kiev- does the spelling change have a political component? thanks. nt ellenrr Jul 2014 #1
yes,no Bosonic Jul 2014 #2
For information, just type KYEV in the search box in Google Maps. Amonester Jul 2014 #3
The spelling change does have a political component. MattSh Jul 2014 #10
thanks. nt ellenrr Jul 2014 #11
Kyiv is Ukrainian, Kiev is the Russian spelling. JVS Jul 2014 #14
Transliteration is a factor happyslug Jul 2014 #47
applause for excellent post kiri Jul 2014 #53
Hey, I'm not that old. passiveporcupine Jul 2014 #56
Just to add a bit ... Igel Jul 2014 #50
Is that like the government assessment on Syria, but done this time by the embassy ? jakeXT Jul 2014 #4
U.S. Closes embassy in Syria (Feb. 2012) Amonester Jul 2014 #5
I'm not saying the Syria thing was done by the embassy in Syria jakeXT Jul 2014 #7
I guess the Embassy does not post such assessments on the intertubes Amonester Jul 2014 #8
Either way, it looks again like an assessment without the normal use of US intelligence jakeXT Jul 2014 #9
Possible, of course, since many remnants in the "Intel Consensus" were Cheney's picks... Amonester Jul 2014 #12
He was probably pissed in 07 when the new report on Iran came out jakeXT Jul 2014 #13
In 07, darth didn't have the votes in the House to... Amonester Jul 2014 #15
Bush probably didn't have the votes to go into Afghanistan on 9/9 or 9/10, after 9/11 he did jakeXT Jul 2014 #20
Thanks for the US' Report, Bosonic. The putin protectors will sniff because it's not RT but hey Cha Jul 2014 #6
So far all signs point towards pro-Russian rebels firing the missile Marksman_91 Jul 2014 #16
No you're not the only one. I've been preaching it since before Crimea. 7962 Jul 2014 #18
I really wonder why "leftists" insist on siding with Russia so much nowadays Marksman_91 Jul 2014 #21
Its because many think the true source of bad in the world only comes from the US 7962 Jul 2014 #22
Leftwing authoritarians who adopt anti-Americanism geek tragedy Jul 2014 #25
Or I agree that the Ukrainian Rebels shot down this plane, but Putin the greatest threat no.... happyslug Jul 2014 #54
So who profits? Billy Budd Jul 2014 #17
"Who benefits" is a nonsensical way to geek tragedy Jul 2014 #23
According to FlightAware, MH17 was not, in fact, diverted at all (or very little): Amonester Jul 2014 #24
That looks like more than 100 miles to me jakeXT Jul 2014 #26
Although 100 miles is not 200 kilometers, who's lying here? FlightAware? Or... Amonester Jul 2014 #27
I was using my eyes to calculate, NYT is using flightradar24 without dates in their maps /nt jakeXT Jul 2014 #28
Will an independent inquiry ever shed light on all of this awfully barbaric act? N/T Amonester Jul 2014 #29
Nobody has to lie, NYT is fucking up. JackRiddler Jul 2014 #46
Ok, then. Yeah, there were also reports of stormy weather happening. Amonester Jul 2014 #49
Kiev ATC purposely diverted the plane to be in harm's way cosmicone Jul 2014 #30
Still apologizing for Pootie Poots facsist rebels I see. IronGate Jul 2014 #32
you mean cosmicone Jul 2014 #34
So I guess that I used it in the wrong context, your post is basically correct? IronGate Jul 2014 #36
Looks like the barbaric rebels had the big guns, but nothing to ID their targets Amonester Jul 2014 #33
Kiev ATC purposely diverted the plane to be in harm's way n/t cosmicone Jul 2014 #35
Out of a nasty storm's harms way, IronGate Jul 2014 #37
I have no love lost for Putin. cosmicone Jul 2014 #38
Bullshit!!!!! IronGate Jul 2014 #39
I am for the truth. Neither ideology nor rhetoric. cosmicone Jul 2014 #41
No, you're not for the truth, IronGate Jul 2014 #42
Amazing! Now you can read my mind hahahaha n/t cosmicone Jul 2014 #43
Read your mind? IronGate Jul 2014 #44
Do not bother much with this guy, hair on fire all the time, hostility is all he has. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #48
As opposed to you? nt. IronGate Jul 2014 #51
+1,000,000 cosmicone Jul 2014 #31
It's not a key question at all if the missile was MISTAKENLY directed pnwmom Jul 2014 #40
+1000. nt. IronGate Jul 2014 #45
Who said Russia gave them these missiles? They are also used by the Ukrainian Army happyslug Jul 2014 #57
The area is controlled by the rebels, not the Ukrainian army. And the Ukrainian army pnwmom Jul 2014 #58
We have unconfirmed reports they have moved back to Russia happyslug Jul 2014 #60
You are ignoring the fact that the missiles were shot from an area controlled by the rebels, pnwmom Jul 2014 #61
I accept the fact the Rebels fired the missiles, but that was NOT the question being debated. happyslug Jul 2014 #62
There is the evidence of the missile systems that were photographed going over the pnwmom Jul 2014 #63
REPORTS of such photos have hit the net, but not the actual photos happyslug Jul 2014 #64
Unlike you, I don't assume Obama is lying about that. I trust him more than Putin. n/t pnwmom Jul 2014 #65
Obama NEVER said anything about the missiles crossing the border happyslug Jul 2014 #68
Only the terminally brain dead think the separatists knew it was a passenger jet. nt EmilyAnne Jul 2014 #55
R&K nt longship Jul 2014 #19
Possible. But these are the same folks that claimed Iraq had WMD's. grahamhgreen Jul 2014 #52
Really? I was under the impression that there had been a change in Administrations. brooklynite Jul 2014 #59
me too, until..... we're still in Iraq and Afghanistan, and starving granny, while escalating war... grahamhgreen Jul 2014 #67
10 mins ago, President Obama on live said similar, & asks Putin to move out his thugs. Sunlei Jul 2014 #66
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