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Israel/Palestine
In reply to the discussion: Israel Hate is Anti-Semitism [View all]Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)287. The devil's advocate.
You weren't offering an alternate perspective on the same events. You were attempting to come up with a plausible excuse for Hamas to potentially use in defense of its frequent commission of war crimes.
In my view, the justice of the Hamas claim to the right of return to the place of their birth is as valid as an Israeli Jews claim to a Jewish State in Palestine.
Really? The key difference as I see it is that Israel's claim to a Jewish state in no way denies the Palestinians of their own right to self-determination or ability to govern their own state. However Hamas' claim to all of Palestine, from the river to the sea requires the denial of Jewish self-determination and dissolution of the state of Israel.
The urge to return to ones area of birth or what one considers is ones homeland can be all-consuming.....Zionist immigrant Jews made that clear....Why would you be surprised that Palestinians might want to do the same?
Because it isn't the same at all. Most Israeli Jews lost their original homes and emigrated to Israel as refugees. Homes were lost, property abandoned and possessions stolen... there is no Israeli all-consuming desire to regain these things from their collective past. The Palestinians did not even lose their state, they get to live in the same exact nation that they were always in, unlike most of the Israelis. They are merely living in a different part of the state.
The modern Middle East was born out of the ruins of two world wars and the subsequent cold war. Nations were pushed together, split apart, forced to compromise and sometimes go to war. The current situation in Israel/Palestine is the result of a single civil war, uprisings, ethnic cleansings and several regional international wars. No one is going to get everything they think is owed to them. Nor should they. The question isn't "what does each group deserve?" But rather "what does each group require?" The Palestinians should have their own state and the freedoms that come along with it. But their desire to live on every last inch of their homeland does not trump the Israelis right to their own sovereign state. Yes, that means that some Palestinians will not be able to go live in the same exact house that they once lived in 70 years ago. They will lose that right. I can live with that. They aren't losing anything that other groups (Jews included) have not already lost many times over.
if offered the choice, I suspect the majority of Palestinians would prefer to return to the areas they had to leave in 1948 and live in a true democratic one-state, a state where one race did not dominate the other and all its citizens were treated as equals......In other words a normal, liberal, western-style democratic state
If offered the choice most people would like to go back to live in Eden, in a utopian paradise where there is no hunger or war and everyone gets their own monster truck or unicorn to ride forever because no one gets sick and no one ever dies. But that option isn't on offer, because it's a fantasy, same as your suggestion.
Why did a poor people who asked nothing but to be allowed to continue their way of life, be forced to accept a massive influx of immigrants from an alien culture?
No one did. None of them had to live in Israel. No one was being asked to give up anything that they already owned. The Palestinians were just Arabs living on a bit of land back then. A part of a whole. There was no nation of Palestine or dream of a sovereign state based on arbitrary borders splitting up the region all over the place. They had been occupied for 400 years at that point by an alien culture. You say that England had no right to split up the area? Great. Then they had no right to give Jordan to the Hashemites. Or split up Lebanon from Syria. Or mush a bunch of random tribes together and call it Iraq. Or split bits off of Iraq and call it Kuwait. You see where I am going with this? That's how the whole middle east was built. No one part is less authentic than any other part.
They had no more right than anyone else to deny anyone the right to purchase and move on to land merely because it was nearby land that they did own. Why should anyone be forced to deal with the influx of a huge group of immigrants from an alien culture? Because the land in question happens to be their homeland too and the state of the world in the early 20th century was one of flux where everyone had to acclimate themselves to enormous changes, whether they liked it or not. The Palestinians lost far less than the Jewish refugees who emigrated there lost, after all. That was not fair either. But no one is guaranteed any specific outcome in this world. There is a strong ethical argument to be made in favor of the Jews settling in Palestine. But they only were able to do it because of their organization, their persistence and their skills in presenting their case to the powers in charge. Being deserving is only a small part of the puzzle. You must also make it happen.
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Israel's gov't is just our badly behaved punk cousin who has to be bailed out again. To point that
leveymg
Nov 2012
#227
When you look at US history did you ever sop to ask where the Colonials
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#160
When the colonies during the American Revolution were fighting for their
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#213
Still, the past restrictions Egypt put in place on Gazans leaving and entering Gaza
Ken Burch
Nov 2012
#219
And I call Bullshit! Now tell me about the West Bank and what is going on there with
teddy51
Nov 2012
#36
You people are great at rerouting the subject! I asked about the West Bank, not Gaza. You fuckers
teddy51
Nov 2012
#47
No, the discussion is not about Gaza the discussion is about Palestine vs Israel and what land
teddy51
Nov 2012
#70
You're assuming Hamas can be mollified by negotiations. They're perfectly clear....
shira
Nov 2012
#125
Yes, i'm sure that the giant graphic was just too painful to see and it took forever to load.
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#198
There's no room. It's about the size of DC, and has damn near twice as many people
leveymg
Nov 2012
#55
My larger point is valid. I said it's an overcrowded walled refugee camp that's not worth
leveymg
Nov 2012
#64
You can argue those points with the authors of this report: 2/3 of Gaza are refugees
leveymg
Nov 2012
#131
What is the difference between a city with 2/3 refugees and a refugee camp? What is the difference
leveymg
Nov 2012
#139
I believe it was Dov Weisglass who infamously called the "disengagement" plan ...
Fantastic Anarchist
Nov 2012
#165
Sorry, but I see some of you as "Poor me, please feel sorry for me) and forget what we do in
teddy51
Nov 2012
#9
Opposing the Gaza withdrawal, which you're doing due to Israel's "evil" intent.....
shira
Nov 2012
#171
Who cares what he said? Nobody that is apparently falling all over themselves
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#218
"What does an oppressed, imprisoned people (Hamas) do to get the rest of the world's attention"
shira
Nov 2012
#40
A question for you: What did those Turkish people onboard that boat do to warrant there deaths?
teddy51
Nov 2012
#42
And have you listened to Turkey's PM about this event? No, I doubt you have cause everything is
teddy51
Nov 2012
#52
"What did those Turkish people onboard that boat do to warrant there deaths?"
holdencaufield
Nov 2012
#122
Not my call, that belongs to the Israeli people. How about a leader that truly wants to make
teddy51
Nov 2012
#49
Like I said, I'm not an Israeli citizen and don't get to vote there or make that call.
teddy51
Nov 2012
#66
I would like to see the Labor party guy(sorry can't remember his name) Get back in power.
hrmjustin
Nov 2012
#50
Really Barak is Israel's current Minister of Defense and the one in charge of this show
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#96
The sad truth is this when it comes to Palestinians there is little light between
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#106
know what I luv weasel words and oh the British mandate ended over 65 years ago
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#282
No, I don't think the Israeli people do, but there leaders certainly have no problem with
teddy51
Nov 2012
#54
So tell me about the boat that you guys boarded and killed innocent people on then! Your not
teddy51
Nov 2012
#87
I was here, observing some propaganda troll bot endlessly recite stale talking points
Alamuti Lotus
Nov 2012
#19
You would not be correct in assuming anything; you're just not good at it.. *nt
Alamuti Lotus
Nov 2012
#27
That charge is pretty funny considering your mission here seems to be to demonize
shira
Nov 2012
#126
Hamas' sworn intent to kill the Jews is irrelevant to the "human rights community"
shira
Nov 2012
#166
I would very much like to hear your “strong ethical argument” favouring Palestine over the US......
kayecy
Nov 2012
#289
For the same reason that the US, Argentina or Australia would have rejected it........
kayecy
Nov 2012
#298
no because you've shown nothing but hearsay and opinion I originally asked for evidence charges from
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#143
No you did not quote B'tselem you claimed that and you were busted which is why no link
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#183
I have questioned MEMRI more than once and that very same video within the past 24hrs
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#82
no MEMRI's record of biased translation coupled with Israeles propaganda program to make
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#104
My question has everything to with "The People" versus "their Government" ...
1StrongBlackMan
Nov 2012
#140
After witnessing our invasion and decimation of Iraq, with israeli encouragement, why the hell
Purveyor
Nov 2012
#53
Israel had nothing to do with our invasion of Iraq. There were a lot of countries who supported
still_one
Nov 2012
#110
Israel To U.S. Don't Delay Iraq Attack, Sharon Government Urges Prompt Action Against Saddam - CBS
Purveyor
Nov 2012
#142
My point was the U.S. was doing regardless, and other western countries did the same bullshit. It
still_one
Nov 2012
#144
They did not do it because of their encouragement or any other countries encouragement. They did it
still_one
Nov 2012
#148
Bullshit. The argument might be made that the US did, but not Israel, but while you are at it why
still_one
Nov 2012
#112
Yes, because the mightiest state in the Middle East is a poor victim.
Fantastic Anarchist
Nov 2012
#151
So let's say a chunk of Mexico (or Canada) is given to terrorists who launch rockets to the USA
PuppyBismark
Nov 2012
#155
Not true. I am anti Zionist right wing crazy Israelis, I am not anti Israel or an anti-Semitic.
OregonBlue
Nov 2012
#181
That's right...this so-called "progressive" magazine says that anyone who is Israeli or Jewish
Ken Burch
Nov 2012
#201
If hostility against Jews and Jewish organization is anti-semitic, what do you call Jewish
AnotherMcIntosh
Nov 2012
#209
You do realize not every organization that advocate for Palestinian rights in Palestine..
King_David
Nov 2012
#212
You have it wrong. In contrast to you, I have never claimed that any organization that advocates
AnotherMcIntosh
Nov 2012
#215
It is disingenuous and used to "deflect" from the discrimination against Jews.
Behind the Aegis
Nov 2012
#233
Are you going to argue that anti-Semitism is discrimination against Arabs?
Behind the Aegis
Nov 2012
#241
Language is fluid, and definitions change with time, usage and cultural reference.
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#243
Seemingly you still do. And if you don't want to read it then put me on ignore.
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#249
As I said, you can always put me on ignore and dig your heels in to the end of time.
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#255
And if you want to play word games, you will get called on it again and again.
Behind the Aegis
Nov 2012
#256
"a term coined by antisemites"? Actually, the German-Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider in
AnotherMcIntosh
Nov 2012
#234
True about not all Palestinians being Muslims (and not all Israelis are Jews)..
LeftishBrit
Nov 2012
#236
I have no idea as to whether Marr popularized the term. I know that many now use the term to
AnotherMcIntosh
Nov 2012
#238
spreading that bigotry out among multiple terms that way it's harder to pin down
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#253
Well, you're free to go away then and dig your heels in someplace else.
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#270
Lovely straw man argument... I think the leaders screw up, so I must be a Nazi...
bobclark86
Nov 2012
#295