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Israel/Palestine

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King_David

(14,851 posts)
Mon Aug 25, 2014, 08:25 AM Aug 2014

Two reasons the “I can’t be a Zionist because I’m a liberal” meme is false [View all]

Another day, another essay by a “former liberal Zionist”, this time Antony Lerman in the New York Times, decrying the fact that while it used to be okay to be a liberal Zionist, nowadays Israel politics is so right-wing that being a liberal Zionist is a contradiction in terms. Regrettably, the author sighs, he decided to choose liberalism.

This is silly (and pernicious). First, in practice today being a “Zionist” means that you support Israel’s right to continue to exist as a sovereign, Jewish state. One could be a liberal Zionist, who wants Israel to withdraw from the territories and achieve full equality for its Arab citizens, or one can be an illiberal Zionist, and support a vision of “Greater Israel” with a suppressed Arab minority. One can be a secular Zionist, or a religious Zionist. There are Christian Zionists, and even a few Muslim Zionists.

But the only feasible alternatives to Zionism are themselves illiberal–have a majority Arab state in which Jews are, at best, a suppressed minority, or force all six million Jews living in Israel to flee to whatever countries (if any) will accept them, or some combination of the two. The idea that giving up on “Zionism” makes you a “liberal” is false, unless creating yet another Arab dictatorship in what is now Israel at the cost of six million Jews’ lives and liberty, and of by far the most liberal state in their region, is somehow a “liberal” option.

Second, it’s entirely false that Israeli politics have taken a sudden swing to the right. The main issue, of course, is territorial compromise with the Palestinians. Israel has already withdrawn from Gaza (and also left Lebanon fourteen years ago), and also has given the Palestinian Authority control of parts of the West Bank, so it’s already more “left-wing” in that sense than it was in, say, 1988, when it was still supposedly okay to be a liberal Zionist.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/08/22/two-reasons-the-i-cant-be-a-zionist-because-im-a-liberal-meme-is-false/

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The Volokh Conspiracy Jefferson23 Aug 2014 #1
I guess at least he's an American and a Zionist King_David Aug 2014 #2
A non-liberal's point of view..that is Bernstein..yes. n/t Jefferson23 Aug 2014 #3
Not exactly non liberal. Also the author of : King_David Aug 2014 #4
Sure thing..the totality of his work if available for anyone to read..good luck. n/t Jefferson23 Aug 2014 #6
Lerman is an AntiZionist and now talking for Liberal Zionists King_David Aug 2014 #8
According to you and your OP is not helping your cause to be persuasive, it only helps Jefferson23 Aug 2014 #9
Jewish liberal Zionist youth movements King_David Aug 2014 #13
You better hope they multiple before any peace deal is finalized, as the youth vote in the US Jefferson23 Aug 2014 #15
Your like a Nostradamus ? King_David Aug 2014 #16
Read the polls, or ignore them. n/t Jefferson23 Aug 2014 #21
Here's a liberal , King_David Aug 2014 #19
Volokh is more complex than liberal/conservative Shivering Jemmy Aug 2014 #11
One can research Bernstein's work, their conclusions he is liberal minded would be a fantasy. n/t Jefferson23 Aug 2014 #12
I did King_David Aug 2014 #17
Keep solace for that and ignore the totality of his work, that's the ticket. n/t Jefferson23 Aug 2014 #18
Question: can you be a liberal and support policies that result in the death intaglio Aug 2014 #5
What's that got to do with Liberal Zionism? King_David Aug 2014 #7
Pointing out that liberal Zionists must deplore the actions of Israel intaglio Aug 2014 #10
OK I'll pass on your directive. King_David Aug 2014 #14
Why? leftynyc Aug 2014 #20
Many liberal Zionists oppose the current actions in Gaza oberliner Aug 2014 #22
That's not what I'm talking about leftynyc Aug 2014 #23
I hear ya oberliner Aug 2014 #24
But leave it to DU leftynyc Aug 2014 #25
As far as Israel is concerned it doesn't even represent the majority of Democratic Party supporters King_David Aug 2014 #26
I point that out time and time again leftynyc Aug 2014 #27
In general, I think DU is mostly more liberal than the average Democrat. DanTex Aug 2014 #32
You think DU is more liberal? leftynyc Aug 2014 #34
Yes, more liberal. Some here are the "far left". Some here are just "liberal Democrats". DanTex Aug 2014 #36
How much do you know about Mondoweiss? oberliner Aug 2014 #37
Almost nothing. I'm a newcomer. DanTex Aug 2014 #39
Fair enough oberliner Aug 2014 #40
I oppose Israeli policy towards Palestinians and am also critical of Hamas. DanTex Aug 2014 #58
Covering Hamas and Palestinian Society: A Response to Peter Beinart ( Mondoweiss ) Jefferson23 Aug 2014 #41
I let people define themselves leftynyc Aug 2014 #38
is Obama a liberal? Mosby Aug 2014 #30
Of course. Shaktimaan Aug 2014 #49
Israel poll from Pew ResearchCenter for the People & the Press azurnoir Aug 2014 #28
What would your poll responses be? oberliner Aug 2014 #29
Even liberals couldn't muster more than 30% leftynyc Aug 2014 #35
Was there a "liberals" catagory I missed? azurnoir Aug 2014 #72
Yes - about 2/3 the way down the page leftynyc Aug 2014 #75
There was a mention of Liberal Democrats on that subject here is the excerpt azurnoir Aug 2014 #77
Those are different subjects leftynyc Aug 2014 #80
Another day, another right-wing source... DanTex Aug 2014 #31
Yep. n/t Jefferson23 Aug 2014 #33
Washington post ?I think it's far better than the Modoweiss nonsense usually posted King_David Aug 2014 #42
I'm talking about the Volokh Conspiracy and David Bernstein. DanTex Aug 2014 #43
Good imagination, King_David Aug 2014 #44
Here's a liberal author for you, King_David Aug 2014 #45
"Author"? You mean a 20-year-old college kid... DanTex Aug 2014 #46
When u comparing views on Israel / Palestine King_David Aug 2014 #47
I wouldn't know, since I don't read much communist or extremist right-wing web sites. DanTex Aug 2014 #52
Well extremist sites keep on getting linked to here King_David Aug 2014 #53
Haven't seen a single example of that. DanTex Aug 2014 #56
You haven't been here too long King_David Aug 2014 #57
That's true. I only started peeking in about a week or so ago. DanTex Aug 2014 #60
"Don't play dumb" King_David Aug 2014 #63
I guess now we know how you respond when you can't answer. DanTex Aug 2014 #66
Does Hilary Clinton count as a right winger? oberliner Aug 2014 #48
What Bibi would give to have her in office right now. n/t Jefferson23 Aug 2014 #50
Both center-left in my opinion. DanTex Aug 2014 #51
Well as a Democratic Party supporter that's the reason I voted for them King_David Aug 2014 #54
Some people are one issue voters, like you're suggesting. Most people are not in that camp. n/t Jefferson23 Aug 2014 #55
The dude is going on and on as if it's not Democratic Party principles , King_David Aug 2014 #59
You're being less than direct with your responses to him, that much is clear. There are no Jefferson23 Aug 2014 #61
I never said to leave DU , or shouldn't be on DU , or not participate on DU etc King_David Aug 2014 #62
Nonsense, your suggestions were stated by you, not me..you own your words and their meaning. n/t Jefferson23 Aug 2014 #64
Hmm, so you agreed with Obama in '08 that gay marriage should not be recognized. DanTex Aug 2014 #65
This message was self-deleted by its author King_David Aug 2014 #67
I didn't agree with him then King_David Aug 2014 #68
So I guess you didn't vote for him in '08. Did you abstain? Vote Green? DanTex Aug 2014 #69
It's good you have an interest in gay affairs , King_David Aug 2014 #70
OK, so you don't want to answer the question of who you voted for in '08. I get it. DanTex Aug 2014 #71
Yep, you definitely get it. n/t Jefferson23 Aug 2014 #73
Since reaching voting age King_David Aug 2014 #74
So you voted for Obama in '08 even though he opposed gay marriage. OK then... DanTex Aug 2014 #76
You like asking personal questions , King_David Aug 2014 #78
Right, because "why did you vote for Obama despite his opposition to gay marriage" is so personal... DanTex Aug 2014 #79
Thanks for the insight King_David Aug 2014 #84
Supporting Israel's right to exist equals Zionism? 3rdwaydem Aug 2014 #81
What else would it mean? aranthus Aug 2014 #82
That Definition would include elements of Jewish Supremacy as well as... 3rdwaydem Aug 2014 #83
Code for anti semitism? Shaktimaan Aug 2014 #85
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