Nero was the Antichrist of the Book of Revelation!

[IndianaGreen]

This is also the traditional view of the Roman Catholic Church!

About 300 years before our era the Jews began to use their letters as symbols for numbers. The speculative Rabbis saw in this a new method for mystic interpretation or cabbala. Secret words were expressed by the figure produced by the addition of the numerical values of the letters contained in them. This new science they called gematriah, geometry. Now this science is applied here by our “John.” We have to prove (1) that the number contains the name of a man, and that man is Nero; and (2) that the solution given holds good for the reading 666 as well as for the equally old reading 616. We take Hebrew letters and their values —

ב (nun) n= 50 ק (keph) k = 100
ר (resh) r = 200 פ (samech) s= 60
ן (van) for o = 6 ר (resh) r = 200
נ (nun) n= 50


Neron Kesar, the Emperor Neron, Greek Nêron Kaisar. Now, if instead of the Greek spelling, we transfer the Latin Nero Caesar into Hebrew characters, the nun at the end of Neron disappears, and with it the value of fifty. That brings us to the other old reading of 616, and thus the proof is as perfect as can be desired.

The mysterious book, then, is now perfectly clear. “John” predicts the return of Nero for about the year 70, and a reign of terror under him which is to last forty-two months, or 1,260 days. After that term God arises, vanquishes Nero, the antichrist, destroys the great city by fire, and binds the devil for a thousand years. The millennium begins, and so forth. All this now has lost all interest, except for ignorant persons who may still try to calculate the day of the last judgment. But as an authentic picture of almost primitive Christianity, drawn by one of themselves, the book is worth more than all the rest of the New Testament put together.

Frederick Engels 1883

The Book of Revelation

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/religion/book-revelations.htm

Why are progressives hesitant to attack the fundies on this point?

[donco6]

1. Not just the Catholics.

Most mainline churches interpret Revelation this way as well.

But hey, it's sure not as FUN! (Omen movies, Rosemary's Baby-ish movies, . . . there are countless rehashes of this tale).

[Lithos]

2. Because...

Progressive does not equate to atheist or even agnostic just as fundamentalist does not equate to being politically Conservative. This is an issue of theology and is best handled using appropriate terminology.

[IndianaGreen]

3. When "Evil" and the "Antichrist" become political issues

The basis for those beliefs must be challenged in the political arena, else we will lose.

[valerief]

9. Oh, honey, unless you were born a "fortunate son," you'd better get used to losing. nt

[Cleita]

4. Not only that but wouldn't the numbers have been in Roman numerals

instead of the arabic numerals we use today, which could change the whole interpretation? I believe a lot of what the Bible says loses in translation what it means in the language it was written in. Wasn't revelation written in Greek? I'm just asking because I don't know.

[truedelphi]

5. I am forgetting what language the four apostles' wrote in

I do remember that their native tongue was Aramic. Though it is possible that John wrote in Greek, as he was living on a Greek island and surrounded by that culture while writing his gospel and also Revelations.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

7. Greek.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. "..merely the ravings of a maniac.." Thomas Jefferson

"..merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams".

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

17. My mom quoted Jefferson on this

and said, basically, that the only reasons this book is in the Bible is the Council of Niacea. Like the minister of the church of my childhood, she said the importance was to follow the teachings of Jesus, and that good works were vital.

[zeemike]

8. I posted some of the holes in this theory in the Religious forum

Which is the more relevant place to talk about this.

But I will say to all, atheist included, that the reason the fundies get by with this trash talk is because the progressives and atheist are ignorant of what the bible really says.
And so instead of checking up on them they, and actually reading for content, they just dismiss it as a fairy tail, and let the fundies define what the tale means.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

18. I would also say

that progressive Christians also wonder which translation of the Bible to use. They even study Aramaic versions--and the words and concepts in Aramaic are very different than what evolved into, say, the King James version of the Bible.

Even when I was a Christian, I didn't look on the stories of the Bible as "fairy tales", but I knew that the misinterpretations were the reason some stories came to be known as they are known. An example is Jonah and the Whale. Jonah was "in a big fish"--but not literally. It was an idiom meaning "in big trouble". If read with this interpretation, the story becomes a struggle of one man to do what he knew in his heart to be right.

[zeemike]

21. I actually prefer the KJV

What keeps it from being read is the old English that it was written in.
But progressives should not worry about what the old testament means if they believe the teachings of Jesus is correct
And much of the old testament is just history except for the prophets, and sometimes historical events must be told in a story that may not be exactly as it happened, because it is told from one perspective.

Where progressives fail in their trying to counter the distortions of the fundies is that thy let them tell us what something means by jumping back and forth and snatching things our of such places as The Songs of Solomon or the administrative letters of Paul and claiming it is some kind of commandment from god.

The surest way to counter this is to quote Jesus himself, and if they refer to Paul (which they always do) ask them if Paul was greater than Jesus. And then invite them to quote jesus on their point.

It works every time, and I have been kicked off religious forms for doing it. They hate the words of Jesus.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

30. Progressive Christians have been fighting fundies since I was a kid,

and I'm sure much earlier than that. My grandfather always called anyone on taking words out of context by reminding them that by doing so, you could say that the Bible tells you to commit suicide--"And Judas went out and hung himself on a tree" "Go thou and do likewise". An old joke, but one with a point. Mom always said to heed the red words in the Bible--that is, the words of Jesus. You are right about Paul, and how asking a fundie that question makes them very uncomfortable.

I will respectfully make one correction--KJV is not Old English, but rather the beginning of modern English. If you have read Beowolf or the Canterbury Tales in their original, you would understand what I mean.

[zeemike]

33. I stand corrected...It is not old English

It is just old to us

[99th_Monkey]

10. Pope John Paul was convinced BWBush is the Anti-Christ

and said as much, shortly before his death.

[MasonJar]

11. Some studies believe that the Apacolypse John predicted was the

fall of the Roman Empire.

[alfredo]

12. From Gloria Thomas's Revelation series.

I used to model for her. I'm not in any of the works on her site, but I know some of the people in the pictures. Many worked for Alfalfa Restaurant in Lexington Ky.
http://gloria-thomas.com/about.htm


Gloria is a real sweetheart.

[Sanctified]

13. If Nero was the Anti-Christ of the book of Revelations he forgot to do a bunch of stuff. n/t

[TexasObserver]

14. Absolutely!! The author of Revelations, an unknown mystic, was writing of his time.

I love a good anti Christ film as well as the next person. Probably better. I've seen the Omen, in one version or another, at least a dozen times. In fact, I have a regular routine I do with one of my adult sons. We emulate the high pitched chanting/singing that are found so often in the Omen films.

He'll sing "Chris-tus!" and I'll reply "Dom-i-nus," which we repeat over and over, getting higher pitched and more frenetic until we bust out laughing.

[Yavapai]

15. So what does Dick Chenney add up to?

[Warpy]

16. It's a heretical cult

but it still has protection under our freedom of religion clause.

What it doesn't have is the right to create what it thinks will be enough of an Armageddon to knock Jesus off his heavenly throne so he'll come back here to save their bacon.

What it doesn't have is a right to withhold medical care of any type for any person based on its "faith."

What it doesn't have is the right to codify any of its hateful and pernicious belief system into any of the laws of this country.

Yes, we have to tolerate them. No, we don't have to go any farther.

Sharing equal blame with the fundies and Dispensationalist heretics and other rapture addled cultists are the mainstream religious who failed to speak out about them for decades, probably out of a mistaken sense of Christian solidarity. This was a mistake. These people are not Christians. They are idolators who have substituted a mostly unread book for a golden calf.

Yes, Revelations was written about 100 years after Christ. Yes, it was about the destruction of Nero and of Rome. Why the hell the Nicean council included that masterpiece of hatred and wishful thinking is anyone's guess, although threatening people with the end of the world should they stray from orthodoxy would serve a newly imperial religion.

In any case, the above interpretation is the correct one, with or without Hebrew numerology.

[zeemike]

22. So does that mean we have had our thousand years of peace?

And New Jerusalem has already descended and taken all the good people to a new heaven and a new earth?

And does it also mean that jesus did return and stop the war that would have ended the life of all flesh on the earth?

Was Nero working on the A bomb?

[Warpy]

24. The Dark Ages saw the religious conquest complete

and a theocracy controlling thought in Europe, so I guess by some estimates, that was the thousand years of peace. Never mind those warlords squabbling to become kings and landed gentry and never mind those excursions against the brown people in the Middle East, the people of Europe had their minds chained securely to Rome.

For Rome, it was 1000 years of heavenly peace, no one to challenge them.

[zeemike]

25. But that does not fit with the prophesy given

It says that the beast will take over the whole world (no need to explain, I know the the answer of "to them it was the whole world")

And the thousand years of peace where every man sat under his own fig tree has never happened fore sure for the reasons you sighted.

And the world has never came to the point of destroying all flesh on the earth...not until 1945 did we have the power.

None of those things fit the scenario that you present.

What I am trying to say is that there is more to it than you know, or ever will know if you just buy into it without actual research for yourself.

[Warpy]

26. And I'm saying it was a dream of revenge against Rome

that never should have been taken seriously by the Council of Nicea.

[zeemike]

34. Actually it was not.

It was a more detailed version of Daniels vision of the 4 beasts.
If you understand Daniel Revelations makes more sense.

[cliffordu]

27. Excellent. This is just Excellent, and I'm stealing it.

It SHOULD be it's own OP.

[TexasObserver]

31. Well said.

Unfortunately, to most fundies, real historical knowledge about the Bible is like kryptonite to Superman.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

19. The Fundies are idiots if they think Obama is the Antichrist.

They have been preaching for the past 30 years that the AC will come from Europe.

And people will not suspect he is the Antichrist when he first comes to power. So the fact that these idiots think Obama could be the Antichrist already means that he isn't.


I know. I grew up in a fundie church.


-- now agnostic (thank the Lord)

[mmonk]

20. Yes, the Bible wasn't written in the present day.

That has been the accepted historical leanings except when the bible met the backwoods in the 19th century.

[anonymous171]

23. I know. Most Catholics don't take the book of revelations that seriously.

[Evoman]

28. I don't know...I just wish the bible had never been written in the first place.

Life would be a lot easier if people would stop arguing about something, that is at it's very core, absolute bullshit. What revelation really means doesn't matter in the 21st...who really cares about 2000 year old bullshit. Not me.

[The Straight Story]

29. Prophetic Duality

When one prophecy applies to more than one occurrence, but there will be a final application of it when everything else matches up (similar to Jesus saying that the signs will be repeated but more frequent near the end, like birth pangs - they feel the same and fortell the coming birth but get closer together near the birth/end)

[old mark]

32. This has been pretty common knowledge for many years,but

the Fundies don't believe this because they don't want to.
They don't believe in evolution, and will tell you that all those
fossils are merely tests put there by god to strengthen their faith.

They are by no means rational people, and arguing or reasoning with them is beyond pointless - it makes them feel like they are being persecuted for their beliefs, and then they go somewhere and have a prayer service and emotionally jerk each other off.

They simply refuse to believe what does not fit with their beliefs...


Mark

[LibertyLover]

35. Right now I'm reading a book called The History of the End of the World

which is by Jonathan Kirsch, the same author who wrote The Harlot By the Side of the Road. It's about the history of the book of Revelation and is fascinating. The author, while agreeing that "666" is the encoded name of a Roman emperor, disputes the idea that is Nero, primarily because Nero had been dead for several years prior to Revelation being written. He also points out that Revelation is dead-set against commerce in any form, including buying or selling or even handling money at all because of the portraits of the emperors and the Gods on the coinage. It's a fascinating book and one that I'm enjoying, even if I only get to read a few pages at a time thanks to my husband who hates seeing me read and a 6 year old daughter who wants mommy's attention while she is awake. Oh well - I'll finish it one of these days.

[AngryAmish]

36. Didn't you see the sticky?!? NO SPOILERS!

Next thing you are going to say the Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's father. Geesh!

[Dorian Gray]

37. That's what I believe

Hesitant to attack the fundies? I'm not hesitant. I just think that it's obvious that they're reading and extrapolating too much from the story. I've always understood that it was a commentary on the political times that they were living through.