Recruits swamp Navy, Air Force (shades of NAM?)

[maxrandb]

http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20050124/1a_lede24.art.htm

OK. I was only 12 when the last troops were pulled out of Vietnam. Did people rush into the Navy and the Air Force in an effort to avoid being in "the back-packing Army and Marines?" I'm a Navy guy, but I've been in for over 20 years. True we haven't lost a ship in war since WWII, but the stuff we do can be dangerous. Anyway, I wonder if the young people are seeing the writing on the wall and are making plans to get into the Navy, or GOD FORBID, the Air Farce, I mean Force.


WASHINGTON — While the Army and the Marine Corps are straining to meet their yearly recruiting goals, the Air Force and the Navy are having banner years and may wind up turning away thousands of potential recruits.

The Air Force says it is so overstocked that it has a backlog of about 9,000 enlistees who have not yet been called to duty. It has slashed its 2005 recruiting target from 35,000 to 24,000. Together, the Air Force and Navy say they are planning to reduce the total number of troops by more than 27,000 in 2005. In contrast, the Army and the Marine Corps, which are providing the bulk of ground troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, are adding more than 12,000 troops this year.

One of the primary reasons the Air Force and the Navy are so flush with troops and willing recruits, personnel experts say, is that those branches have suffered relatively few casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan.

“I think the most obvious explanation is that you're less likely to be killed or wounded in the Navy or Air Force,” says Richard Kohn, a professor at the University of North Carolina who studies military culture.

[MADem]

1. Also, what is not being said

...is that recruiting goals for these branches have been severely curtailed. The DOD cannot exceed a Congressionally-established end strength, so the Pentagon has shifted some of the numbers from USAF and USN to USA and USMC. I'll bet these cushy branches aren't taking very many CAT III or CAT IV candidates.

ON EDIT--Of course, if we go into Iran, the USAF and USN will play a much larger role. USAF will be working targets, coming from Aviano and elsewhere, and there will be a lot of shipboard staging happening in the Gulf, and that can get hairy when you have a large number of warships in a relatively small space. To say nothing of the fact that there will be efforts to take out any assets on station in the Gulf....

I think the USAF and USN are safer bets, NOW. But they could be in the mess big-time if weecowboy decides to mount a Persian campaign.

[maxrandb]

28. Yes, those Silkworm Missiles Can Be Nasty

Also, you might find this interesting. we recently had a pilot that could not complete his qualification syllabus. Normally, they would either let him cross to another designator that did not involve flying, or separate him.

Anyway, this time, he was told that the Navy had no other job for him, but that the Army, or Marines would take him.

He declined that option.

[MADem]

38. You know, there could well be wiggle room

...for the Services to trade assets, without even requiring the assets to change Services. It wouldn't surprise me if they pull a load of fresh, innocent assets into the USN, say, as Master at Arms or some other (cross-service, useful-in-Iraq) enlisted classification code, and then "second" them to another branch to free up more infantry assets. We see Navy personnel serving with the USMC all the time--corpsmen, chaplains, doctors, most commonly, Seabees too on occasion. Perhaps the USN will end up spelling the USMC behind the revetments in other capacities before too long, if the current recruiting strains continue. Then, the USAF can spell the USA...if they shuffle the money right, and the services can agree on the methodology, this could well happen. I have to admit, that if I were running personnel at the DOD level, and I were charged with getting bodies on station ASAP in a war theatre, I'd be looking to do this exact sort of thing. Wonder if the JCS is having these sorts of discussions?

You have to figure that if WE think of it, they do as well. It's a devious method, but if you can't get people to join up, you just have to meld the forces to the mission in whatever way you can--even if it means gaming the recruits.

If the Navy isn't dumping the failed pilots into SWO school, or Public Affairs, that means they are bursting at the seams in terms of end strength. Did they dump the guy to inactive reserve? He could find his ass called back up and sent to "Civil Affairs" school...!!!

All of those old generals and admirals who fostered the PURPLE SERVICES in the last two decades may see their joint dreams come to fruition. I can't help but think they don't want to see it happen like this, though. But they are stuck playing the cards they are dealt...

[natrat]

52. pbr street gang

the horror, the horror

[maxrandb]

88. No

Part of the letter of separation for the guy asks "do you want to affiliate with the Reserves?" He opted not to.

I'm sure there are some things they could do to keep him if they wanted to. I haven't read the "fine print" in a long time, but with what we spend for initial pilot training, there usually is some "payback" required.

[MADem]

94. He's probably IRR, whether he knows it or not

He's just not affiliated with an actual unit, either a paper unit like GWB hooked up with so he could go to Harvard Business, or a drilling unit, like the ones in Alabama and TX where he failed to report for duty!

My 214 says I can be called back on the weecowboy's say-so. Every time I look at it, I get a sick, sinking feeling.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

67. The safest bet, of course, is finding another line of work.

No use for a steady income if you're dead.

[Born Free]

70. Air Guard providing protection for convoys

A co-worker is going to Iraq, he has been in the air guard for quite some time, served overseas several times and although he has no training whatsoever he is now being sent over to help provide protection for the convoys. He is not Happy, didn't like the idea of invading Iraq and he doesn't particular care for the area - he was part of the peace keeping team for Israel and one of it's foes many years back. The point being that being in the Air Guard or Navy doesn't guarantee your free from being required to serve as a target in Iraq.

[MADem]

80. UN Peacekeeper in the Sinai, maybe?

Postwar, keeping the line between Egypt and Israel? Worthwhile work, not easy, either. But as I am sure he knows, it ain't a peacekeeping job over in the sandbox.

I don't blame your friend for not being happy. I hope he keeps his head down.

[jdj]

108. No shit, thank you.

They lower the recruitment to make it look like people are falling all over themselves to get in.

"weecowboy"!

[ewagner]

2. Not surprising at all

My son and some of his friends talked about what to do if the draft is reinstated.....Air Force and Navy were viable options for computer nerds.......we'll see what happens in the next six months...

[MADem]

8. If a draft happens, they will NOT have a choice

They can APPLY to other branches, but those branches can say no. In that case, it's off to the Army, unless a Marine comes into the processing station, and starts picking people out of line (One-Two-Three-MARINE!). This actually happened at one Armed Forces Entrance and Examining Station (AFEES--they are now called MEPS--Military Entrance Processing Station) during Vietnam, and the soon-to-be recruits rioted when they realized what was happening, and they all scattered, so the guy couldn't tell which sheep he had designated for slaughter (they were all long haired hippies and looked alike, standing there in their BVDs). The Marine ended up locking the door and lining them up, and pulling the USMC fodder out of line. Talk about a "Life Sucks, and then you die" kinda day....

[BikeWriter]

20. I saw the (One-Two-Three-MARINE!) thing happen at the old Federal...

Building, downtown Houston in 1965 when I went to be inducted.

[ewagner]

30. gasp!!!!

I'm old enough where I actually remember that...hell I even remember AFEES....walking around for a full day in your BVDs with that stupid sack cloth on hanging from your neck on a rope...your wallet and watch in the bag....

I remember the "interview with the psychiatrist"..walk in, he tells you to sit down, he asks "How's your health son?" You reply "Okay sir". He shouts "NEXT!!!"

[newblewtoo]

81. So how about that lunch?

I actually think I got the same stale cheese sandwich in a "Bistro Bag Lunch" flying out of Dallas Fort Worth a few years ago. Thirty years later I swear it was the same one.

No warm milk and cookie, the "Bistro" had a four ounce water and trail mix. No frills air travel.....AFESS pioneered the way!

(I still could not eat the sandwich so it is probably still out there somewhere.)

[Hand]

86. Not to mention the chest X-rays...

"BACKANDSHOULDERSAGAINSTTHEWALLTAKEADEEPBREATHANDHOLDIT!" (zap) "NEXT MAN!"

G-d only knows how much stray radiation that poor guy was getting every day from the antiquated equipment. I imagine he's gone down from massive cancer long ago...
:nuke: :scared:

[elehhhhna]

36. Y'all forgot the Coast Guard!

[qnr]

68. Actually, the CG is a great place to go for training. It is so small

that it can't afford to have all sorts of breakdowns in its ratings. For example, I was what was called a Radioman when I was in, and we had to learn everything from CW (morse code) through satellite communications, cryptography, interior communications, acted as the ships Postal Clerks, and dozens of other jobs.

A disadvantage, of course, is that being the red-headed stepchild of the services, you don't get a lot of the expensive new toys to play with.

[OzarkDem]

113. Good suggestion

for those of us with draft age children living on the north coast of the US. Coast Guard is quite busy in our area.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shreck]

5. MAxrand

Those guy's on the Cole sure got in harms way.
Magic Rat, you are wrong, as a former Marine I resent being called blood thirsty and if you do it again I'll hunt you down and tickle you.:D

[DELUSIONAL]

22. Marines = JAR-HEADS

Face it -- Marines are not (and were not) known for extreme intelligence. They aren't (weren't) expected to think on their own.

Dumb, Dumber and Dumbest -- join the Marines.

There is GREAT rivalry between the military branches -- and probably a whole lot of excessive government spending is due to this stupid rivalry. Each branch has a P.R. division -- their main job is to build the image of their bosses.

That said -- as a Navy brat (from birth to age 22) we loved the military rivalry! The rudest names were always reserved for the Marines.

[insane_cratic_gal]

26. Marines are part of the Navy

or at least the Navy's ground troops. Yes the Navy loves to tote that around.

I guess blaming intelligence issues or stupidity is an underscore really. I think reasons for joining the Marines is far less about smarts and more about clout and the hard sell of honor.

Marines have just as much pride in their duty and training. There is a certain appeal to young men (advertising?) on becoming a marine, and what pride that instills.

Less about dumb dumber and dumbest and more about pride, honor, integrity

(PS my hubby is a squid)

[DELUSIONAL]

32. squid -- submarine sailor

my dad was an "airdale" -- Navy Air.

Washington has nearly has many military bases as Hawaii.

Each little division of each branch of the military seems to need its own little (or huge) base.

Marines are stationed on many of the larger Navy ships -- and the sailors are forever giving the Marines a hard time.

Problem is that too often the stereotypes are true -- the usual Marine is a very rigid personality -- sees the world in black and white. Then there are the Marines that have more than half a brain -- with all the Marine stickers one guy driving a huge pick-up had a bumper sticker -- along the lines of -- Marines for Kerry/Edwards.

Although as a kid making fun of the military rivalry was fun -- as an adult I really believe that ALL military branches should be merged -- but then that might make bushies war waging fantasies easier to achieve. . . . . . . . . . .

Oh never mind.

[Stinky The Clown]

34. Iron Men and Wooden Ships

H2S <----- Minesweeper sailor ...... USS Adroit, MSO 509, late 60's

[oneighty]

63. I rode aboard many an MSO

As EOD. Made a fun Med Cruise in 57 aboard the Detector came back to Charleston on the Dash.

Was crew on USS Symbol AM 123 in Korea 52. Not so much fun. In fact it was not fun at all.

180

[Stinky The Clown]

69. The Detector and the Dash were both still in Charleston in the late '60s

They were in a different MinRon than Adroit, but we shared the same piers.

I have the original of her ship's plaque. Sadly, she's long ago been converted to toothpicks. Here's all that's left of her:

http://www.mso509.com/

[OzarkDem]

114. Korea wasn't fun

for the Navy, either, was it?

My dad was on the Valley Forge, had his hitch extended at the beginning of Korea. He didn't like it a bit, they seldom got liberty, worked their tails off.

[stanwyck]

66. Rigid personality?

I think you've watched too much Gomer Pyle. My son is hardly a "rigid personality". In fact, his thinking is much more open than what you're exhibiting today. And he's a Marine with a Kerry/Edwards sticker. Open up your mind. You're promoting very ugly stereotypes. Maybe you see in "black and white"...which would explain your name-calling. But for those of us with loved ones in the Marines, your comments are disheartening. My son leaves for Iraq in one week. He was there for several months last year. Give another liberal a break. Stop with the hate.

[driver8]

115. "squid" -- ANY sailor...not just submarine

I was a Navy brat and served 6 years in the Navy. A squid is any sailor -- not just those on submarines. "Airdale" sailors are also squids.

[pelagius]

44. Yes, Marines are part of the Navy...

...but it's only a temporary measure until Marines learn to walk on water. :-)

[DistantWind88]

50. Actually, they aren't.

They are in the same Department, with the same secretary, but they are not PART of the Navy. They (the USN and the USMC) have separate and distinct Title 10 responsibilities and are separate military services.

[pelagius]

51. I sacrified accuracy for humor. Mea culpa! :-) n/t

[wildwww2]

89. The USMC is a branch of the Navy. I know I was a Marine 74-78

So the Marine Corps may be classified as a seperate military service. But it is a branch of the Navy. We are so intertwined at times. What difference does it make? The guy I went in on the buddy plan with was a sea going bellhop. (he spent some time on the USS JFK) He would tell you the same thing. We may have not been a PART of the Navy but if we had not worked together hand in hand. The mission would not have been accomplished. So to speak. My brother was a Navy Corpsman. And they are tossed in with Marines alot. As he was.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[DistantWind88]

90. It's not a Branch of the Navy

It's a separate service.

[geniph]

48. That's a really ignorant claim to make, Delusional

in fact, the Marines are trained much better to think for themselves and operate fairly independently than the Army, and certainly more so than the Navy. They're much more likely to end up operating in very small units out in the field without oversight.

My husband's a former Marine, and I sure as hell hope he doesn't see your post. ;-) He still reminisces fondly about all the swabbies he re-educated.

[stanwyck]

65. We've got quite a few

narrow-minded posters today. My son is a Marine. The ignorance and prejudice being shown are disheartening. Are we infected with trolls or are these DUers with exceptionally simplistic minds?

[DELUSIONAL]

71. As a Navy brat -- I do not like marines

The ones I saw while growing up on many different Military bases tended to be hyper aggressive. We just learned to stay away from Marines. In fact "Marine" tends to be a dirty word -- and if you want to insult a sailor -- call him a Marine.

There is a massive body of research on Aggression -- human aggression and personality types drawn to institutional aggression.

I sort of consider most Marines to be suffering from testosterone poisoning. Some sailors also have the same poisoning.

[geniph]

79. All generalizations are false, my friend

My husband's certainly not lacking in testosterone, but neither is he the hyper-aggressive type. So long as he doesn't see your post, anyway. ;-) (That IS a joke.)

[stanwyck]

62. Again

your narrow-mindedness is not much appreciated by this mother of a Marine. He's a liberal who voted for Kerry. Try to open up your mind a little.

[Daphne08]

74. I personally find this post quite

disrespectful to all who are presently serving as Marines... as well as to those who have served in the past.

My dad was a Marine and he was an intelligent, perceptive man. In fact, he was the person most responsible for teaching me to think for myself!

[maxrandb]

29. Roger That

That's why i prefaced what I posted by pointing out that what we do is dangerous.

I also was on the USS IOWA when Turret 2 blew up. Those 47 guys were gone in a split second.

Hey, like we say in the Navy; "At least you guys can run". We're pretty well screwed if something happens. Don't care how good a swimmer you are, when you're 600 miles from any land, you're screwed.

[MADem]

40. Heh, heh, heh

I always used to gripe about that fucking mile and a half run for the PT....show me the GD ship that has an engine room a mile and a half from the GD bridge, and that's when I'll need to be able to run a mile and a half!!!

And using your trousers as flotation devices doesn't work for very long in 20 foot seas, even if you can swim like an Olympian....the sharks are a little nerve-wracking too!

IOWA was some mess. Glad you weren't in the turret, shipmate.

[Charon]

103. Heh, heh, heh

Ships are like prisons, with the added risk of drowning.

[Lisa]

78. this is the best "snappy response" I've seen in more than a year ...

Kudos, shreck. I'm forwarding this thread to a couple of ex-Marines in my anti-war group, who I know could use a post-Inaugural laugh.

[Coastie for Truth]

9. During Viet Nam - when there was a DRAFT

I chose the Coast Guard. Yes, Coastal Force ONE and Squadron ONE Coasties got shot at in Viet Nam, yes two Squadron ONE Coasties got killed in action in Viet Nam. Two more Coasties have been killed so far in Iraq. So it is not a free ride.

But, the attitude is more like FDNY and all who put themselves in harm's way to save others - they pay you to go out and rescue people --- not necessarily to come back in. And we lose Coasties every year in Search and Rescue.

(Sad note - three FDNY brothers were killed this weekend saving lives)

[shanti]

13. what about folks who

are in both the marines and the air force? dad originally started in the marines, but ended up retiring from the af.

does that make him half-stupid?:-)

[MADem]

25. I had an old codger who worked for me

...who was a mega-OSVET (other service vet). He had done time in the Army, Coast Guard and Navy. Smart sonofabitch--not too motivated toward promotion, he just liked being in the military. Of course, every time he changed branches, they'd set him back a paygrade or two. He was an old codger (relatively speaking--he must have been pushing 40, while his peers were in their 20s) by the time I got him.

Your dad probably got tired of all the PT--the USAF had an easier regimen!!!

[shanti]

45. well

he SAYS that he changed branches because of the marine motto about families not being issued to you. he said it's harder on marine families than it is on air force families, so he switched.

[MADem]

76. It's true

USMC assignments are hard, and some places they send the person to a hellhole, with a choice of a year alone or two and a half or three accompanied--so the bind is, will everyone be miserable for a year, or miserable for two to three? Navy deployments are a killer--and even when you are in port, you sometimes go out for a couple of days, a week or two at a time. Then, when you go on cruise, you are gone for months.

USAF historically has done a better job with family housing annd support services, too. Also, the nature of the assignments are such that long periods of family separation are less of an issue, overall, for USAF families. When you have a family to think of, these things can factor into the equation. It's a testimony to the family, really, preferring to be at home as much as possible! (Though the Navy has had some pretty sweet port visits as well as overseas and stateside duty stations, for people who enjoy different cultures and national/world travel.)

[rppper]

102. my underway history, experiences....

i spent 10 years onboard 4 submarines and a sub tender. out of nearly 10 years in the navy, i was at sea for over 7 years...thats op time, not sea time...naval personel know the difference....my longest deployment was 7 months, but there were several that varried from 2 months to 4 months. this included 3 strategic deterent patrols, an op off of the russian coast and two ops off the south american coast, 2 med runs......the list goes on and on...and these were just the major deployments....this does not include the little two weeks out 1 week in ops we did in between for training, inspections, etc, etc....

we had a little saying for fast attack subs...fast, black and never coming back.....sailors on fast frigates...FFG's...say that ffg stands for "forever f'n gone"...they all have different meanings and acronyms...they all mean the same thing....you are always underway or on the boat.

it isn't easy to mantain a marraige throughout all of the underways...we actually had divorce pools...i am surprised mine lasted as long as it did. naval housing is so-so...you sometimes have to wait a while to get it...i prefered to live in town...less drama...

the USAF takes pretty good care of their personel and their families, undoubtedly the best of the 4 services. the navy is a distant second. the commisary and exchanges on either always seemed to be better than the army's. the food at the navy and air force gally's were always good...the army's so-so...but the marine gally's were always 4 star...and that is all i can say nice about marine bases....

all the other services reserve a special kind of dis-like for marines...don't know why, most marines i met were all right...hyper though...the previous poster was right about that. i never met a marine that wasn't hyper, especially the recon and special forces guys. i met my fair share of ass-hat marines, but in all fairness, i can say the same of some of the navy and army personel i had contact with. i never had a problem with the air force guys. they were always jovial and friendly...guess it just goes with the territory.

it doesn't matter though, marines will always be JAR-INES to me, much as i will always be a "squid" or "bubble-head" to them...surface sailors will always be "targets", "skimmers" or "surface-pukes"...pilots and air crews will always be "air-dales", air force personel will always be "air force weenies" or "geeks"

we all said it...it is the individuality of each branch showing it's face...it was always a friendly rivalry, at least most of the time. we all worked for the government though...we were all equally screwed, and that was a common bond.....

[diamond14]

18. my cousin was KILLED in Vietnam, Navy HM3, Silver Star, Purple Heart

19 years old...DEAD....he was killed on the FRONT LINES....

AND, he was the only son...so that idea won't get you out either....



For Vietnam, to get more 'volunteers', the economy was FLUSHED, more and more young people had no jobs...and eventually, their parents pushed them out of their houses and into the military, many parents hoped the military would give their sons some 'job skills' and make them PROUD....

the same thing is happening now...many young people still live at their parents house when they are 20 years old, or even 25 years old...the parents want their kid to move out and get a life of his own.....it's very difficult to do with the current no-jobs market, and sky-rocketing rentals, and failure to fund education.....


sooooooo...parents actually PUSH the kid out the door over to the recruiting station...they see all those photos of young men serving in Iraq, spiffy looking in their military uniforms, and think..aha...my kid could be a HERO like that....

[maxrandb]

31. So Sorry For Your Loss. Interest Factoid

Navy Corpsman (HM's) are the most decorated rating in the Navy. It's because the Marines don't have a medical corps, so a lot of Navy Corpsman serve with the Fleet Marine Force.

In those old movies where the Marines were storming a beach and yelling for a "medic", that medic was a Navy Corpsman. God Love 'em.

[Wisc Badger]

39. Not going to happen with my Son or Daughter

I served 17 plus years USN (service connected Disability) including 5 on Subs (qualified SS). Made PN1

Met my wife at Great Lakes (HM2) married her (and boy did I get lucky and the best out of that deal, what a wonderful wife I have).

So my kids now of a military background, and neither wants any part of military service.

The only thing I have asked of them is to understand that there are times when wearing our nations uniforms is/might be necessary (IRAQ IS NOT ONE OF THEM!!!!).

They both understand that and that is all I want from them as a parent in reference to military duty.
:dem:

[JohnOneillsMemory]

41. OMG. You just showed why Time has 'They won't grow up' as cover story!

(It's either Time or Newsweek. Cover shows a 20-ish man and the cover story is 'They just won't grow-up, why men still live at home.')

Damn, diamond14, you just connected another psy-ops propaganda dot.
Pushing young men towards the military right there in front of our noses.

I study the mainstream media to highlight the intentional propaganda campaigns that sneak into the American mind.

You just did another service to your country. THANKS!!

[liberalhistorian]

42. Actually, I don't see too much

of that, I see the opposite happening. Parents frantic and worried about their sons being in the military and not wanting them to join up. I've known people who've actually tried to talk their sons or daughters out of joining up when they were determined to do so.

[Bouncy Ball]

56. Hey now.

When my husband joined the Army in 85, he did it because he truly wanted to be infantry. He's never been a guy who had anything to prove. He wanted to work with Bradleys, etc. His dad did the same thing and that probably had something to do with it.

[stanwyck]

61. Thanks a lot

My son is a Marine. A liberal who voted for Kerry. He's a sweet kid with a high IQ. But, hey, you seem to know who all these people are...and what they want from life. I'm just his mother.

[oneighty]

4. Excuse me.

In Korea three us minesweepers were sunk by enemy mines, the Pirate the Pledge and the Partridge. An LST was sunk at Inchon. (from the Sea War in Korea) Also I was there.

180

[TahitiNut]

6. During the Vietnam years ...

... some guys would enlist in the Navy or Air Farce for 3 to 4 years (the Coast Guard was full) in order to avoid being drafted for two years as a combat grunt in the Army or Marines (yes, the Marines got draftees then).

Today, the motivations are different ... we have an 'economic coercion draft.' Pay grades are uniform across the services. An E-5 in the Navy gets paid the same as an E-5 in the Army. The Veterans benefits are uniform across the services. But the nature of the service is very different.

[mopinko]

11. better training

as the mom of a couple of young adults, they look at the air force and navy as where the better training opportunities are. safer and more comfortable, too.
my brother was nam age, and joined to avoid getting shot at. ended up in the weather service, mostly in california.

[TahitiNut]

24. Myth.

Almost all of the 'civilian' skill work is being outsourced to contractors, leaving the combat skill sets (some being outsourced, too) to the services.

The Big Lie ("half-truth") of the Corporatist Regime is that military training prepares a person for civilian employment. Well, the truth is that the military needs fewer and fewer people in such roles as such work is outsourced to corporate profiteers. Thus, fewer and fewer people are being trained in such 'occupational specialties.' Indeed, preference is even given to those enlistees already having such training or experience, further lessening the opportunity to 'climb the skill ladder.'

[maxrandb]

33. Ain't That The Truth

and with the SECDEF blurring the lines between the forces, you probably aren't even safe from ground duty in the Navy. If they need you for cannon fodder, you are going to be cannon fodder.

Look, we're already turning retired Grandmothers loose in Iraq with an M16.

[DBoon]

7. better training in AF/Navy?

Maybe they are looking at how well the service will train them for civilian jobs afterwards.

Maybe the Navy and AF offer a better chance to gain some desirable skills, and this all reflects a bad labor market and unaffordable college tuition?

[Bridget Burke]

10. A classmate of my mother's joined the Navy--in 1940, I believe.

Young men of his generation were quite aware they'd be in a war, sooner or later. He was a fine horn player & got a cushy gig in a shipboard band.

He was assigned to the Battleship Arizona & died there.

[sandnsea]

96. My uncles did too, in WWII

Only one waited to be drafted. The others joined the Navy in order to avoid being drafted into the Army. This isn't anything new.

[shanti]

12. that's about right

my son is AF and my nephew is navy. they wouldn't even consider any other branches - they're not that stupid!!

BUT i wonder how long it will be when the military starts pulling them from their duties to be on the front lines?

[signmike]

14. It's what I did. 1965 I got "Greetings' on my 21st

birthday and ran down to join the Navy. They had so many guys signing up I was put on 120 days' hold. Didn't bother me any.
In my company in boot camp one of the guys' father was an Army General. That created a mini war within that poor kid's family, haha. But they wouldn't release him - he stayed in with us.

[Stinky The Clown]

35. That's kinda my story ......

.... except I had a high draft number. In those days, I joined for the reasons some seem to be joining now ... duty to country.
I chose the Navy cuz I hate wearing combat boots in wet jungles ..... yanno? Does nothing for one's pedicure.

[BikeWriter]

15. Hmm, okay. I was Air Force and at Pleiku, Republic of VietNam...

in 1967 and 1968. We had frequent small arms fire as well as incoming rockets and mortars at times. I ran into a friend and former NCOIC of mine in Saigon, we had coffee together. A few days later near the same spot he was blown across the road by a rocket that killed eight men. His rehabilitation took more than a year.
My Brother in Law was Air Force at the same time and had a plane shot out from under him. The Air Force was not all a cakewalk and flowers.

[shanti]

16. and another in the same vein

AF, Navy Look To Shed Troops
USA TODAY
January 24, 2005

- The Air Force <http://www.military.com/Community/Home/0,14700,AIRFRC,00.html> and Navy <http://www.military.com/Community/Home/0,14700,NAVY,00.html> have more people than they need and are trying to get thousands to leave without resorting to layoffs.

Over the next year, the Air Force says it will shrink by 20,000, downsizing from 379,000 troops to 359,000. The Navy will trim more than 7,300 and fall from about 373,200 sailors to 365,900. WASHINGTON

In contrast, the Army <http://www.military.com/Community/Home/0,14700,ARMY,00.html> will grow from 493,000 to 502,400 and the Marines <http://www.military.com/Community/Home/0,14700,MARINE,00.html> from 175,000 to 178,000. Their growth reflects the demands of open-ended wars in Iraq <http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent1/?file=GH_Iraq> and Afghanistan <http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent1/?file=GH_Afghanistan> that are about to trigger second tours of duty for tens of thousands of ground troops.

The high-tech Air Force and Navy, which have few rifle-toting troops, believe they can absorb personnel cuts that might threaten to debilitate the Army or Marines. Part of the reason the two services can draw down: High tech weapons are changing warfare. A single Air Force B-1 or B-2 Stealth bomber flying with satellite-guided bombs can now destroy more targets than an entire squadron of Air Force or Navy planes dropping unguided bombs in the 1991 Gulf War.

In future years, the Navy and Air Force will sail fewer ships and fly fewer aircraft because of improvements in weapons. Whereas the 1980s-era Pentagon envisioned building up to a 600-ship fleet from 450 in 1982, the Navy now has a total of 289 ships and submarines.

''The outcome for us, we are using the skills and talents of our people the best we can, and we are harnessing technology,'' says Cmdr. Ron Hill, a spokesman for the chief of naval personnel. ''We're getting rid of outdated systems and getting rid of work that doesn't need to be done by uniformed people.''

Personnel is among the biggest expenses for the military. The cost of 10,000 additional troops is $1 billion or more a year when recruiting, training, salaries and benefits are included.

In the civilian world, a corporation with personnel shortages in one part of the company could shift workers around. In the all-volunteer military, it doesn't work that way. Each service has its own culture and is responsible for recruiting and retaining its workforce. There is little crossover among branches, and the Pentagon cannot simply order troops from one service to another.

As part of their efforts to downsize, the Navy and Air Force last year began encouraging sailors and airmen to consider transferring to the Army. But since the ''Blue to Green'' program began, only 50 sailors and 89 airmen have switched to the Army, according to Navy and Air Force figures.

The Army, Army Reserve and Army National Guard continue to have a difficult time recruiting. The Army Guard and Army Reserve are part-time forces made up mostly of troops who typically serve one weekend a month and two weeks in the summer, but who have frequently been called up for full-time duty since the invasion of Iraq in early 2003. Guardsmen and reservists make up about 40% of the 150,000 U.S. troops in Iraq now.

During the first two months of the 2005 fiscal year, which began in October, the Army Guard fell from 25% to more than 30% short of its recruiting goals. Earlier this month, the Army Reserve's top commander, Lt. Gen. James Helmly, sent a memo to Army leaders saying the Army Reserve was suffering severe personnel problems and becoming a ''broken force.''

The active Army was able to meet its 2004 recruiting goal of 77,000, in part because it rushed 6,000 recruits it had planned to enlist in 2005 to boot camp early, leaving less margin for error this year. In one sign of the concerns in the Army, the service is adding 574 new recruiters to bring its nationwide force up to more than 6,000.

The Marines say they expect to make their goal of about 38,000 recruits this year, but not without difficulty.

''It's a challenging recruiting environment. Nobody would tell you otherwise,'' says Maj. Dave Griesmer, a Marine spokesman.

[BOSSHOG]

17. CAN WE PLEASE STOP REFERRING TO PEOPLE

who join the Army and Marine Corps as stupid and naive. They provide a viable service to our country "to support and defend our constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic." I humbly thank them. Where they go and what they do when they get there are decisions made by civilian leadership. I spent 24 years supporting and defending in the Navy but I never felt safer than knowing I had a cadre of Marines on board. Why one could be silly and naive and say that we are freely posting today because Marines and Soldiers died in all our yesterdays.

[diamond14]

23. part of that is because the USA hasn't had a great/noble war since

WWII....and some here would even dispute whether WWII was all it got pumped up to be....


everything since WWII has been simply "stupid and naive" wars....


sadly, IMO, when the war itself is STUPID, this perceived 'stupidity' gets transferred to our troops....

bush* is DESTROYING OUR MILITARY....their image is gone, nobody really seems to care that they are KILLED every single day in bush* wars....nobody want's to really join anymore.....it's too sad...and I am surprised that the MILITARY VETERANS, families and active duty officers aren't raising holy hell over bush* and his great stupid wars....

[MADem]

27. I am one who will never blame a patriot

...for the failures of an idiot commander in chief. Those who do just don't know any better.

[geniph]

47. Amen, Bosshog, and thank you

My husband volunteered for the Marines in 1968, and went to Viet Nam in 1969. My brother spent four years in the Army. I have a nephew and two cousins in the Army right now. Every one of those was a volunteer. My father and uncle volunteered for the Navy in 1944. My ex-husband volunteered for the Coast Guard in 1973. Anyone who wants to call any of 'em stupid can kiss my ass.

[stanwyck]

64. I appreciate your

post since my son is a Marine. I hate to see this kind of ugly prejudice at DU. My son is a liberal who voted for Kerry. Are the minds here so small that they can't grasp that a young man could be intelligent, liberal, and...a Marine?
Thought I'd landed at Free Republic.
This is very disheartening.

[insane_cratic_gal]

19. Navy and the new tactics from DOD

My Hubby is Navy and works as a publics affairs guys for the Navy in Pittsburgh. He came home 4 weeks ago and told me the news. Someone brained stormed if they pulled (navy ones too) recruiters from the desk to place them in some sort of support role to free up other active duty members, They might have just enough to cover the extra troops they needed for the elections in Iraq.

So Recruiter one goes to Base in Norfolk to free up a security guard there on the navy base. That Navy security guard then goes to Iraq. So the recruiters or desk jobs are being rotated in and out to free up other jobs. So army and Marines can go fight in Iraq.


This has to show you, how desperate things are getting. They are trying to avoid the draft the dems warned against. However, don't they need congress to approve a draft? Can you just imagine the nails in the coffin should they approve it?

[oasis]

21. Navy and Air Force enlistees beware of obtaining a military driver's

license. You too will be eligible to drive a truck in a dangerous convoy.

[kskiska]

37. When WWII began, my dad got into the Army Air Corps

(forerunner of the Air Force) because, in addition to an ardent desire to fly, he figured that in the Air Corps and the Navy, you know where you're going to sleep at night and not have to spend it in a foxhole somewhere. Also, the food is better.

[liberalhistorian]

43. One simple word,

people: D-R-A-F-T. It's coming, I have no doubt of it. I don't see how it can't be reinstated, frankly, if we are to continue things the way Bush and his advisers want. We do not even have enough troops to keep order in Iraq, so if Bush is so determined to push forward into other countries, and if Cheney and Gingrich are serious when they talk about "30-year wars" and "endless wars", I just don't see how a draft can be avoided.

Maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing, and I say that as the mother of a son who's almost 14 and who's an only child. What I mean is that, right now, most people really aren't affected all that much by the war and the casualties. It's really mostly the lower classes that are doing all the fighting and dying and their families doing all the grieving. Most people don't have to worry about themselves or their kids being sent off to war, so they're not as affected by what's happening and they don't pay as much attention. It's time the sacrifice was spread EQUALLY to EVERYONE, not just the lower classes who don't have many career choices. And no student or other deferments like there was in Vietnam, either, that was wrong and it sure as hell won't equalize things the way they should be.

[shanti]

46. no, draft IS a bad thing!

as the mother of another 14 yr old son (my baby!) they aren't getting him either!!!

[liberalhistorian]

49. I understand that, I sure as hell

don't want my son getting drafted, either. But we need to be realistic, because it's coming. I just don't see how it can be avoided. Now that Bush thinks he has his "mandate", the political fallout of a draft won't bother him much at all; in fact, he's arrogant enough to believe that he can now do damn near anything he wants however he wants, and to hell with anyone in his way.

[mumon]

57. Very simple.

The same way the draft didn't work in Vietnam: massive non-compliance.

[liberalhistorian]

58. But the draft DID work in Vietnam,

for a long time before people began truly resisting it.

[diamond14]

82. by 1966, mcNamara DRAFTED kids with NO ABILITY to resist...poor, low IQ

Secretary of Defense mcNamara preyed on the underclass and those with disabilities...he was immoral trash, just like rumsfeld...it's shameful for anyone to honor these recruitment practices, exclaiming that "the draft DID work"...no one should be PROUD that "IQ 62" were being DRAFTED into this highly successful program...Vietnam was all CRAP...illegal, immoral, disguisting at all levels.....

http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2002/05/29/mcnamara/index_np.html

McNamara's "Moron Corps"

HBO's "Path to War" leaves out some of the most shameful brainstorms of the Vietnam War's masterminds -- including a little-known recruitment program that turned the mentally and physically deficient into cannon fodder.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Myra MacPherson

May 29, 2002 | The highly acclaimed HBO movie, "Path to War", powerfully details President Lyndon Johnson's descent into the disastrous quagmire of Vietnam. LBJ is depicted, in part, as a victim of his defense secretary, Robert McNamara's, intellectual duplicity. But the film spares McNamara from the deeper moral condemnation he deserves, entirely overlooking, for instance, one of his most heinous acts as the chief architect of the war -- a cynical recruitment gambit aimed at the underclass known as "Project 100,000."

By 1966, President Johnson was fearful that calling up the reserves or abolishing student deferments would further inflame war protesters and signal all-out war. And so, even after McNamara began privately declaring the war was unwinnable, the defense secretary devised Project 100,000.

Under his direction, an alternative army was systematically recruited from the ranks of those who had previously been rejected for failing to meet the armed services' physical and mental requirements. Recruiters swept through urban ghettos and Southern rural back roads, even taking at least one youth with an IQ of 62. In all, 354,000 men were rolled up by Project 100,000. Touted as a Great Society program that would provide remedial education and an escape from poverty, the recruitment program offered a one-way ticket to Vietnam, where "the Moron Corps," as they were pathetically nicknamed by other soldiers, entered combat in disproportionate numbers. Although Johnson was a vociferous civil rights advocate, the program took a heavy toll on young blacks. A 1970 Defense Department study disclosed that 41 percent of Project 100,000 recruits were black, compared with 12 percent in the armed forces as a whole. What is more, 40 percent of Project 100,000 recruits were trained for combat, compared with 25 percent for the services generally.

[liberalhistorian]

83. OMFG!

WOW! I thought I knew everything about the history of that time, but I had no clue of this! I knew that the poor and minorities were drafted and died in disproportionate numbers, thanks to student and other deferments that largely aided the middle and upper classes, but this is a complete surprise to me.

My God in heaven, that is the most despicable, disgusting, inhuman, immoral, shameful, psychopathic bullshit I've ever seen, even for that inhuman murdering monster McNamara. Thanks for the info, I'm gonna do some more research on it.

[diamond14]

85. here's another site.....mcNamara's 100,000 had SPECIAL dog tags

so other soldiers KNEW that they were mentally challenged, and often sent them out to their deaths....these human beings were MOCKED and treated cruel, especially because they were conveniently MARKED...other soldiers felt that they didn't want their own lives put in jeopardy by low-IQ mcNamara's draftees....and it wasn't just 100,000...it was more like 354,000 low IQ draftees....too many of them ended up on the Vietnam Wall...I suspect that rumsfeld is working on some variation of this right now, afterall, it worked for YEARS for mcNamara, since NOBODY was there to STAND UP for these people with disabilities...NOBODY.....


http://www.mooremilitaria.com/dog_tags.htm

Vietnam-Era US Army Dog Tags, the Army Service Number was 8 digits and had one of the following prefixes: RA (Regular Army, volunteer enlisted), US (an enlisted draftee), NG (National Guard), ER (Enlisted Reserve), O (Officer). When using draftee designation "US", the first number is either a 5 or a 6. 6 was considered a bad number as it was reserved for the "Project 100,000". The second number is the "Army Area" the draftee was from. 1 or 2 indicated Northeast (after the 2nd Army was absorbed by the 1st Army in the 50's), 3 South, 4 Southwest, 5 Mid-West, 6 California, Pacific Coast, Hawaii, Alaska. 0 indicated outside the US such as Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, or America Samoa. Of interest, is that US67 numbers indicated one of McNamara's Project 100,000 draftees who had failed the Armed Forces minimal IQ test, but were drafted anyway to meet the manpower needs.

[liberalhistorian]

97. Thanks for the additional info,

and we must do everything possible to keep Darth Rummy from doing something like this now. This time, they're not going to get away with it!

[Charon]

104. Project 100,000

The Army was not the only service to receive MG III & IV recruits.
We received several of these people on the ship,in the late 60s.

[DFWJock]

53. Im sure

all the folks who voted for Bush would be happy to enlist or have their sons or daughters enlist to fight this way they SO wanted.

(Holding breath)

[mumon]

54. duh

One of the primary reasons the Air Force and the Navy are so flush with troops and willing recruits, personnel experts say, is that those branches have suffered relatively few casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan.

ALL infantries suffer seriously higher casualty rates than navies or air forces.

[DistantWind88]

60. Not true at ALL

During WWII the "Air Force" (the Army Air Corps at the time) lost over 40,000 KIA while the USMC (primarily "infantry") lost about 17,000 KIA.

[insane_cratic_gal]

91. Pearl Harbor?

Can't disregard that one.

[6th Borough]

93. Not throughout history...my great-uncle was a crew chief on-board a B27...

...during WW2. B27 crew members had the highest casualty rate among Americans.

No, he didn't finish his 25 mission allotment, but he did survive, thankfully.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

110. I doubt seriously that your uncle flew on a B27..........

<http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/bombers/b3-26.htm>

Quote:

"The XB-27 was proposed by Martin to fill an Army Air Corps requirement for a high altitude medium bomber. The Martin Model 182 was loosely based on the B-26 with design changes necessary for high altitude operation. The aircraft never progressed past the design phase of its development and no prototype aircraft were ever built."

This site has a comprehensive listing of all American aircraft flown during WWII:

<http://www.daveswarbirds.com/usplanes/american.htm>


No B27 is listed there either.

[6th Borough]

111. Um...exuse me, I meant to say "B-17 Liberator"...confused B27 w/B29 /EOM

[Stella_Artois]

112. I'm a pedant, i'm sorry

The B-17 was nicknamed "Flying Fortress", It was the B-24 that was the Lib.

[lovuian]

55. In other words we have enough troops there just in the Navy &Air

So we do have troops... perhaps they should move them over to ground forces. ???

[flamin lib]

59. It's happend before.

The best man in my wedding,my best friend, was sent TDY from USA to the Marines in 1969. Spent a year in the DMZ.

To this day it's a story I can't tell without crying.

[raysr]

72. When I was drafted

(Viet Era) I was standing in line and a Marine Officer was walking down the line pulling guys out for the Marines.

[DemoTex]

73. Navy artillery controllers served on the ground at Hamburger Hill (Ap Bai)

They called in Naval arty including the big 16-inch guns of the battleship Iowa. They were in that bloody fight from start to finish. Many Navy corpsmen (medics) served with Marine ground units at some of the bloodiest battles of Vietnam (Khe Sahn, Hue, Quang Tri, Rockpile). Navy Shallow-Water-Inland-Fast-Tactical boat (SWIFT boat) crews saw dangerous duty in the Mekong river delta.

[PATRICK]

75. Just great

In REALITY they will go to these non-ground personnel to drive trucks- which they are doing- or any other support going begging because of shortages. So this article in fact calls them both cowardly and stupid by assuming an attitude it likely never checked up on very much. Also for the swelling ranks of unemployed youth the benefits and prestige of those two branches look on the surface easily more appealing than the much abused grunts.

Or the smart kids are trying to get the plum positions now before the draft. Are recruiters using these angles and planting these lines of reasoning. I wonder if the professor knows or bothered to find out.

[Zech Marquis]

77. as a former Air Force dependent

I can tell everyone that in each service branch, you'll always have your squared away people who know what they're doing, proud of it, and make you proud of their service. And on the other side of the coin, you definitely have some pretty fucked up morons who have no business being in uniform, again in aLL of the branches. So it is unfair to say,"well the Air Force and Navy people are smarter..." not always so :-)

I had a Navy SEAL as a collge classmate for about 2 years, guy was clearly alot sharper than most of our classmates. Seeveral of my dorm mates were Marine ROTC students, again very smart. My Army ROTC classmates during Camp Challenge in 1995--we were the real life stripes :evilgrin: Bravo Company, 3rd Platoon LOL

[driver8]

99. Great post -- you are right!

I was a dependent (father career Navy) and I also served six years in the Navy. Just like anyplace else, you have dirtbags and you have people who take their job seriously and are squared away.

The people I worked with in the Navy were some of the smartest people I ever met. Not only that, they worked their asses off and were proud of the work they did. Sure there was the usual military bitching and moaning, but I know most of the guys wanted to do a good job.

[FlemingsGhost]

84. Not willing to take one for the team? Pfffttt ... Pussies!

Don't worry ... Syria and Saudi Arabia have surprisingly well-trained and equipped pilots, and I hear Iran has quite a powerful naval fleet.

Your chance to bleed for the Homeland will likely come ...

[elderly man]

87. To those of you attacking the Marine Corps

I suggest you familiarize yourselves with the contemporary opinions
and writings of Marine Corps Generals Zinni,Van Riper,Hoar, as well
as Marine Corps Major Scott Ritter.
Historically the writings of Marine Corps General Smedley Butler
are a must read.
Yes, I served in the Marine Corps (48-52) and was exposed to some
of the most intelligent people I have ever met.

[stanwyck]

95. You're my hero

my son is a Marine. Goes back to Iraq next week. I'm a little distressed at the ignorance shown here.
And I very much appreciate your comments.
Thanks!

[Kimber Scott]

92. My son and daughter-in-law are in the AF and each have been to Iraq

and Afghanistan. But, they did tell me the Army is giving large bonuses for people who transfer from the Air Force to the Army. Seems, like the article says, there are too many people in the Air Force and too few in the Army. They also said not many people are taking the Army up on their offer. (Imagine that.)

[AnneD]

98. This is how Dad explained it to me

I joined the USAR (78-89). It broke my dad's heart. Dad a career USAR explained the Armed service branches to me. It all boils down to funding and the job you do. The USAF builds the housing, headquarters, and BX first. They build the runways last, run out of money midway and request more...and get it because 1/2 a runway is useless. USA makes runways, headquarter and PX first, run out of money after completing the officers quarters go to Congress to get more money for the enlisted housing and are told make do. The USA will truck in the soldiers to the foot of the hill that they need to take where as the Marines will jog from the beach in full gear the entire way and once at the base of the hill, they storm it. I won't tell you what he said about the USN 'cause he didn't really consider them military. He said the USCG was Navy ROTC. The Coasties are very small and I liked everyone I met. The Navy types were great too (couldn't march for squat). They have it better than the USA (more money divided among more people). USAF has the highest entrance requirements, Army the lowest (at least when I went in). The women Marines I found most interesting. They were trained for desk jobs only. During their boot camp, they had a makeup, manners and fashion component to their training. I would have preferred that to the live fire course I had to go through.

[mordarlar]

100. : ( My brother began having seizures after joining air force....

he received the vaccines. The military says it is preexisting. It is not. They refuse medical. He is 22 in serious debt, needing expensive meds to keep it somewhat under control. Before Christmas he had two in one day and has had several since. The damage we are going to see in a few years from this war, military policies and this administrations policies frighten me.

[DistantWind88]

105. Did his seizues begin after he got out of the AF

or did they casue him to be discharged form the AF?

[mordarlar]

106. They began shorty after boot camp. The military retained him ...

for 1 1/2 yrs to run tests. These came back with no cause. They then re;eased him medical discharge. No insurance. He has lost two jobs since returning home as a result of the seizures. They have increased significantly in the past yr. They began when the AF found him conscience two separate times. Now he has grand mol seizures. Two the day before our Christmas party. : ` (

[PaulaFarrell]

101. my dad did in WWII

got his draft papers for the army in the mail, and went down and signed up with the navy.

[rainbow4321]

107. Air Nat'l Guard to guard convoys

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D87RMC300.html


The Army, facing a personnel crunch in Iraq, is training Air National Guard truck drivers for one of its most dangerous missions: convoy defense.

The first class of a new six-week convoy training course starts Monday at Camp Bullis with 10 truckers. Five more airmen were scheduled to arrive on Feb. 6.

For the Air Guard drivers — many without recent weapons training — it will be a jarring transformation.

The Army, short-handed and spread thin, has turned to the Air Force and Navy last year to augment its convoys in Iraq. Air guard spokesman Lt. Col. Mike Milord calls the newly trained personnel "up-armored airmen."

[superconnected]

109. yeah, the liberals are commies but the ukranians and china

and russians are allies.

Okay, I don't know much about the ukranian people so that may not be fair. They did throw off russia.

[raver]

116. Dumb Marines

My youngest kid is a Marine. He is a FA-18 pilot. He also voted for Kerry as did I. He is also a forth generation military fighter pilot. He would be suprised to learn that you think he is "dumb". So would his Masters degree profs (EE) at GaTech. I would pay big money for you to call him "DUMB" to HIS FACE. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You should be thankful that some amoung us have personal courage and integrity to put aside fear and comfort.

Not all progressive liberals are gay, minority, live in NY or are cowards. Thank your lucky stars for diversity.

I flew A-6s in the USMC out of ChuLai.