Army Captain, 4 Drill Sergeants Charged

[Rose Siding]

FORT KNOX, Ky. -- An Army captain was charged with dereliction of duty for allegedly failing to stop his drill sergeants from abusing basic-training recruits.

Capt. William C. Fulton, 35, also was charged with punching a soldier in the chest.

Early last month, 25 recruits in a unit under Fulton's command were kicked, pushed and slapped, the Army said Wednesday. Four drill sergeants under Fulton have been charged with abuse.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-drill-sergeants-charged,0,3482001.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines

[shoelace414]

1. that's not that intelligent

It's not like the trainees are going to be in boot camp forever.

[bemildred]

2. Maybe they are under stress too.

The picking are slim these days.

(Not that I mean to defend this, I'm just suggesting that
the training cadre may be in a difficult situation these days,
and that may have contributed to this sort of stupidity.)

[MADem]

15. That is a valid point

...and a thoughtful observation.

I'd be interested to know how long the officer had been on the job, if he was a brand new 0-3, or unexperienced in the training arena. A lot of times (and I am sure there are many present or former enlisted personnel on this board who will acknowledge this) the officer does not get down in the weeds, doesn't understand the nature of the assignment, and fails to provide leadership, instead counting on seasoned senior enlisted to carry them through. Oftentimes, they can get away with it, but when it goes wobbly, it goes totally wobbly.

I agree, like you, that no one should condone abuse, but it is instructive to look at the whole picture and discover the WHY of it all.

[saigon68]

3. That's how you get them to kill "Rag Heads"

And other sub-humanoid types </sarcasm>

[qazplm]

5. hey listen

i have seen a lot of your posts, its clear you think very little of people in the military, that's your right I suppose, and certainly, having served in it one form or another for the last ten plus years I have seen my share...then again, the only people I have heard use the term "ragheads" are civilians, not military.

bottom line is, I doubt very seriously you know the first thing about what happens at basic, or much else about the military or military people, at least, not today's military.

They are, as in most professions, a mix of really bad, really good, and a whole lotta in between...most are just people either:

a. looking for college money
b. looking for a career
c. didnt know where to start and so do the military
d. are patriotic

the vast majority of them signed up before 9/11 or Iraq.

And many, like myself by the way, happen to be either liberal or moderate, more than is claimed by the right or believed by the left.

[saigon68]

8. The Military Use the Term "Sand Niggers" or "Towel Heads" also

In this war according to my nephew who is there in Baghdad right now for his second tour. I have e-mailed him just now to confirm that "They don't use the term Rag Head any more"

But I'm not here to argue with you.

By the way they called them gooks, slopes and zipper heads in my war.

[qazplm]

12. really?

I guess my two years at Ft Campbell with C Co 3/327th Infantry "Battleforce"

and my near two years following with D 2/8th IN (Mech) were all a mirage

It's possible, both posts are boring as hell so I could have actually been somewhat out of it...

nevertheless, I pretty much remember being around guys on a daily basis who had something to do with ummmm I think it was called infantry 11B, 11C, but hey what do I know eh?

I never once heard those terms used. I have been here for 10 months, yes now I am a lawyer (got smart, went to law school, did green to gold)...but as a defense attorney guess who walks in my door every day...grunts, privates, mostly combat arms, for article 15s, and i dont hear them use those terms either.

Although now "Haji", yeah, they use that term ubiquitously over here.
not quite the same as "sand nigger" and if people do use it, they are a lot more circumspect about it then during "your war".

at any rate, "my military" has its flaws, too political, underprepared, overextended, poor leadership politically speaking, but the soldiers are smarter, more technically and tactically proficient (at least the active ones are, i wont speak for the NG/Reserves) than they were 30 years ago.

and from what i can tell from even the early 90s they have gotten better in professionalism.

there are bad eggs in every pot, and putting people in crappy situations like iraq are going to break a few more eggs, but for the most part, your reliance on broad brush strokes and insults is neither accurate nor redeeming.

[ebayfool]

79. My ex was a lifer - Master Diver, he used those terms & worse.

Constantly. As well as all his Army & Corp of Engineer buddies, maybe you were 'sheltered' (not the word he used when I called him & asked @ this, LOL)?

[vincent_vega_lives]

89. You got any expericence with the ARNG?

They right there with the active component in Iraq. Not the same weekend warriors from 30 years ago.

[ninkasi]

78. I'm not military

But I can sure vouch for that. A friend of mine served in the same war you did, and told me they same thing. He also mentioned a phrase, maybe I don't remember it correctly, about harbor bombers? Anyway, I think it's fairly commonplace in any war.

[vincent_vega_lives]

87. the "Military" doesn't use those terms

individuals do.

They do call them Haji though. The arab term for pilgrim. Even that is not condoned by the leadership.

[DemoTex]

9. I think you missed Saigon68's sarcasm switch.

Having said that, let me say this: It is hard for me to believe that the the military is 100% PC now-days. When Saigon68 and I were in the army the ubiquitous terms were gook, slope, and Zips. Not everybody used those pejoratives, but most did. But thanks for qualifying your post with the observation about the mix. You got that right.

BTW: Like me, Saigon68 lived through Basic Training during a very dark time in our country's history.

[saigon68]

13. Thanks DT for the check 6

I'm really a fun guy, I don't dislike the troops.

I dislike the officer leadership who are mostly boot licks who are concerned for their careers not their MEN (in my day) and WOMEN(today)

They are the ones who cover up shit like Abu Ghraib while the E-5 NCOs get the General Courts Martial.

The best people tend not to stay in the military because of the chicken shit

[qazplm]

16. again with the broad brush...

i know crappy officers, heck right now i am defending an E-6 who is facing court martial while his commander and warrant get A-15s and GOMORs (it should be the opposite).

I also know dedicated officers who put soldiers first, who eat last, sleep last and wake up first.

I know Trial Counsel who tell the chain of command when they are wrong, and others who let them do wrong because they are too scared to do differently.

officers may have covered up abu but enlisted were the ones perpetrating abu, whole lotta blame to go around on that one.

when was the last time you were on active duty, just curious.

[saigon68]

77. Are you really a JAG officer on AD ?

I went right from the military in 1972 to the VVAW. I missed Dewey Canyon so I still have my stuff.

I keep asking the Troop apologists to tell me a good reason why 58,000 men and women died in the Nam.

So far in 2+ 1/2 years here no one has given me a good reason-- or for that matter any reason at all.

There was plenty of greed and malice aforethought in starting that cluster fuck and little mens rea involved to get us out.

Both the congress and the president were jointly and severally liable for these deaths especially the last 30,000 or so. The whole ugly band should have done time in Leavenworth or Atlanta

[vincent_vega_lives]

88. There are plenty of good officers

and chickenshit NCO's as well.

I suppose you were one of the best people of course.

[qazplm]

14. no i got it,

but seems to me his sarcasm wasnt pro-soldier.

no it isnt 100% PC, nothing is for goodness sakes, but the terms are NOT ubiquitous here in my experience and i have been enlisted and officer.

and your last point is my point, your military is not the same as todays military, in some ways, it was better, in many ways, it was not.

[bemildred]

11. Saigon is highly qualified to have opinions about the military. nt

[qazplm]

18. why?

because he served in vietnam?

I have served for most of the years since 92 with a break for college, but i dont know the first thing about what happened in vietnam or what the army was like then, nor would i pretend to, even though my stepdad served there.

why then does he know about today's military simply because he served 30 years ago?

They are completely different animals, some ways better, some ways worse, vietnams soldiers were a mix of volunteers and draftees, todays soldiers are all volunteer, vietnam was a much more deadly place than iraq is today, even the rank structure on the enlisted side was different then then now, educational levels were different, the country was different, the times were different.

all i am saying is, i am serving now and i dont agree with some of the broad brush painting that he does when it comes to the military of today.

[TahitiNut]

20. Fallacy alert.

"i dont know the first thing about what happened in vietnam or what the army was like then, nor would i pretend to, even though my stepdad served there."

"They are completely different animals, some ways better, some ways worse, "


Seems like somebody's trying to walk on both sides of the street at the same time. :eyes:

[qazplm]

23. huh?

No, I dont see any dichotomy in not knowing what HAPPENED in vietnam or what the army was like (as in what people were saying or experiencing), and yet know that the rank structure was different or that NCO training was much improved over the last 30 years, or that ROTC training has much improved over that time, or that when you dont have a draft and a smaller military you can be more selective in your recruits.

but hey you clearly must see one so point it out to me cuz i am missing it.

[MADem]

25. I have to disagree with you

The poster served in the post-Nam military,which IS different from the Nam military. Totally. Here's a small difference: in the Vietnam era, if a woman became pregnant or married, she was discharged. Even if she wanted to stay. The UCMJ has been rewritten since then. Family Support and Community Support DID NOT EXIST in any meaningful capacity back then. Even pay issues were way more of a nightmare back in those days. Everything is different nowadays.

It's a large organization, there will always be difficulties, but the trend had been, up until recently, to attack problems with honesty and vigor and correct them. That trend seems to have been stopped in its tracks, not by the military, but by the civilians in charge of them.

Post Vietnam, the leadership began to realize that personnel were ASSETS, not fodder. It is the CIVILIANS who are currently in charge who are trying to shift the mindset back to the fodder paradigm, not the serving uniformed members.

[TahitiNut]

39. I'll chalk it up to the hubris of youth.

"Today's generation" has persisted throughout human history in claiming "we're different!" The more things change, the more they're the same.

My great-granduncle served in the Civil War. My father and five uncles served in and after WW2. I served during and in Vietnam. The next generation in my family is serving right now.

Styles change. I once wore bell-bottoms as a civilian. I once wore bell-bottoms as a Coastie (cadet). Big deal. That does not indicate substantive "change."

Some things never fucking change! One of the things that has never changed is the substance of military indoctrination. The "enemy" has always been labeled with dehumanizing epithets. I don't give a flying fuck what the epithet is ... it's the constant and immutable habit of soldiers throughout history to use 'em.

[qazplm]

42. and yet

the problem is that CULTURES change and "PC" as they call it has trickled down EVEN into the military.

I can tell you for a fact that military leaders are very spooked about PC, even the conservative wingnuts will pay lipservice to it.

thus the "ubiquitous" term for Iraqi over here is "Haji" which is quite a step up from "Gook" relatively speaking.

"Haji" either comes from, depending on who you ask from "the Haj" or the character "Haji" from Johnny Quest...funny thing is, many of the IRaqis take it as a term of respect, the Haj being a holy and respected thing among them.

I hear "Haji" CONSTANTLY, I do not hear any other terms although I have no doubt that there are terms used from time to time, but believe it or not, PC HAS filtered down to the military and blatant epithets are not encouraged, even "Haji" is at least mildly chastized as inappropriate.

[MADem]

47. All Hajjii means is PILGRIM

Shades of John Wayne...but NO! You use the term to refer to someone, usually an older man, and all that you are saying in using the term is that the gentleman has sufficient piety that you quite naturally assume that he has made the Hajj, the mandatory, at least once-in-a-lifetime religious obligation of Muslims to make a pilgrimage to Mecca and Medina during the holy days. That is all it means.

The Iraqis aren't stupid, though--they understand when some people use the term pejoratively. It is an honorific title, not like "Hey, Mac" or "Yo, Bub!"

[qazplm]

49. I wont say they are stupid,

I will say that they at least are smart enough to pretend if nothing else that they are "honored" by the use of the term.

I am ashamed to admit that i have slipped and used the term on occassion but NEVER in front of the iraqis but i try not to use it at all, and i have done a good job of not saying it the last few months.

The preferred term i kid you not is "Local National"

[MADem]

55. LN is standard, in any country (peacetime or war, for that matter)

But do not feel as though you cannot use the word Hajjii when you are speaking directly to someone. Just make sure that your "Sa'alam, Hajjii" doesn't sound like "HEY YOU!" It really should not be used to describe someone -- as in "That hajjii over there looks fishy." it is a title, like Doctor, Professor, Reverend, and it should be used when speaking to the "pilgrim" in question.

[qazplm]

57. you may very well be right

but no one used it when i was in panama, then again, i have to admit, most of the guys i knew spent it oogling (and more) the gorgeous panamanian women! :D

[MADem]

67. Here ya go!

http://www.aafes.com/pa/selling/abbrHP.html#L

If the link doesn't pop you to the L listings, go to them. Even AAFEES has it on their little list! It is a standard term to distinguish your civil service and US contract workers from your LNs, who have a different pay and benefit system!

You might not have heard it if you weren't closely affiliated with employment issues on your installation. You know how the military is, never say anything in plain english when you can come up with a jazzy acronym!

[TahitiNut]

53. Big deal. I served at USARV HQ in Vietnam ...

... and you would never hear one of us (draftees) use the term "slope" or "gook." Once in a while, a 'lifer' would slip up and use such a term. (So much for the more "professional" volunteer! :eyes: )

I don't give a flying FTA whether the epithet is rationalized as coming from some culturally 'PC' term. It's used as an epithet nonetheless. It confers "thing-ness" ("other-ness") on a human being. It is dehumanizing. Insofar as how an Iraqi might use such a term, I've heard blacks use the term 'nigger' toward one another to convey fondness and kinship. You'd have to be insane to think that makes it OK.

Again, the more things change, the more they remain the same.

Hubris.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[qazplm]

61. wow

there was NOTHING wrong with anything I said in that post, certainly not near some of the personal attacks made elsewhere on this thread.

wow, well that's fine.

[PhuLoi]

65. I ran into a homey at USARV Hq in 70. He took me to meet a

one star gen when the gen wanted to know who he was talking to. We enter the gen's office, and he's this young guy with his feet on the desk reading a comic book. I hit a brace, salute, and this POS asks me if I want to buy an AK47 for 50 bucks MPC. Fucking officers.

[TahitiNut]

69. We had a whole latrine-full of 'em.

We had a bird-wannabe (LtCol) who gave a court-martial to a guy for not wearing his baseball fatigue hat, after being told to put it on, while walking back to his office from getting a haircut. (The Vietnamese barbers doused our heads with stinky stuff. Couldn't stop 'em. I think it made us easier to smell when we were doing night guard duty and perimeter patrol.) The scuttlebutt was that LtCol got fragged.

We had an OCS cowboy as Company CO who walked around with war comic books in his back pocket. He had an AK-47 on his office wall behind his desk. It had a fully-loaded banana clip in it. One day, the company clerk was dusting and accidentally hit the trigger. It was on full automatic and stitched part of the the wall and across the ceiling with rounds until it hit empty. Bad thing was that the office's ceiling was also the floor of the 2nd floor barracks area. Three guys came within a foot or two of getting offed.

While most of the officers were OK, about 10-20% were pure assholes. I kept my butt as far away from the main HQ buildings as possible. Even though I was HQ Company, I was at the Data Service Center. We did the in-country personnel stuff when we weren't pulling perimeter guard duty either at Long Binh or the heliport.

[DemoTex]

29. "Don't know much about history books ..

Don't know much about the French I took."

[TahitiNut]

58. (cRoOuFgLh)

:-) I used to think the world was a lovely shade of brown when my head was up my ass.

[DemoTex]

74. Our little joke, eh TN?

I do love our band of RVN brothers. The others just don't understand.


Hue and the Perfume River
Photo by DemoTex

[TahitiNut]

76. You and me both, Mac.

I wish I had the words. (God, that was a beautiful country - even with all the crap.)

(On edit) Here, I'll share one of the sights I remember. Her name was Thuy. She was one of the maids (mama-sans) and she was super. Not a word of English, nor me Vietnamese - but she taught me enough to lose at Oh-Wah-Ree (their version of the stone game). She was probably VC, and only about 18 years old (not much beetlenut stain). (No. No hanky-panky.) Man... she was a strong gal, with lots of presence - and lovely. I'll never forget her.

[bemildred]

21. Opinions will vary, I'm saying he has earned the right to have one.

I don't think the military have changed much at all, if anything
it's gone backwards since the 70s, in many respects. I think a
republic, which we claim to be, should have a citizens military,
not a bunch of military employees, but that's just my opinion.

[qazplm]

24. well not to nitpick

but you said he was "highly qualified" to have an opinion, not that he earned the right to have one.

we all have a right to have one, even those who didnt serve.

I think a professional military, a military where people volunteer IS a citizens military.

Now it may not be a representative military (not a lotta rich boys) but that doesnt make it not a citizens military.

[bemildred]

31. He is "highly qualified" becuase he did serve,

and you will note he still has family that serve.

In a citizens military citizens serve as a condition of citizenship.
It is not voluntary, it is an obligation, and in return one has
certain inalienable rights of citizenship and obligations owed by
the government, which are also not voluntary on the governments part,
it owes them.

[qazplm]

33. I serve now

my mom served, my dad served, my stepdad was in vietnam and served 29 years...you dont see me saying i am highly qualifed to talk about what things were like in 1969's army. I guess somehow if you serve that gives you instant access to how things are til ya die?

I will remember that when having discussions with people serving in 2036 provided I make it that long and 4 more months over here.

forgive me but your second paragraph sounds like the speech in starship troopers. I dont believe that service as a condition of citizenship is either noble nor American, nor is it a "citizens military".

But I guess if you make up the term you get to establish what you think it means, fair enough, but I think my "citizens" military would look nothing like yours.

[bemildred]

36. You can be "highly qualified" too if you like.

The citizen soldier is quite an old idea, I didn't make it up.
It was the basis of the old Roman legions, Napoleon's levee
en masse, and the US military in both world wars. That the US
was forced to abandon it after VietNam was one of the signs that
the old republic has died, that the legitimacy of our political
system is corroded. The same sort of thing happened in Rome.

[qazplm]

38. well i dont like

cuz i am not...nor do i pretend to be.

as for the idea of the citizen soldier, a lot of that is over romanticism of conscription.

there is nothing glorious or honorable about forced service in my book. honor to me is voluntary service, true citizenship is willing service.

[bemildred]

50. I said nothing about glory or honor.

Only fools think war is romantic.
I was talking about the duties and obligations that properly
bind the citizen and the state in a republic.

Mass conscription is always voluntary, without it one has not
the means to compel it, catch-22. That's why they gave it up
here and are reluctant to try it again. If the government attempts
a draft and it takes more people to hunt down the deserters than
show up willingly what have you accomplished other than making
evident that lack of public support of your war policy that was
before decently hidden?

Do you think they are scratching around for "volunteers" in Latin
America because it's cheap labor?

[qazplm]

59. interesting then

that conscription in the 60s and 70s led a few draft dodgers to prison, i somehow think they didnt consider it voluntary.

calling something voluntary simply because the majority dont rise up against it seems a bit hollow to me.

duties and obligations to the state by the citizen in a republic are filled by service to that republic. there is no logical reason why that service need be only military in nature.

[bemildred]

60. It was more than a few, quite a few more than a few.

And quite a proportion of the returning vets were disenchanted too,
as we are starting to see now in the Iraq mess, and as you can see
from the VietNam period on this very message board. Jimmy
Carter, if you remember, declared a mass pardon to "heal the
nation".

Voluntary means they show up under their own propulsion,
in this case, and one would hope fight willingly, or at least hold
the gun up and look to the front.

I made no such assertion that military service is the only issue
between a republic and it's citizens. It is simply one of the
most essential and indicative of the state of the political system.

[bemildred]

62. What is this about?

U.S. Army pushes patriotism amid recruiting woes

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1335816

[bemildred]

63. And this?

Army Raises Enlistment Age for Reservists to 39

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1330013&mesg_id=1330013

[qazplm]

66. one's about propoganda

the other is about a dip in recruiting because of a draining war.

whats your point?

[bemildred]

68. Which one is propaganda?

My point is that there is a shortage of "volunteers",
where the actual number required is quite modest by historical
standards, or in terms of the present population of the nation.

[qazplm]

70. the shortage is caused not

by some breakdown in society but a breakdown in deciding what a proper conflict is, its caused by a breakdown in the way the military is being used both active and reserves.

there wasnt a shortage in volunteers the last ten years, there wasnt a shortage of volunteers when our army was a lot larger in the 80s and early 90s.

you are trying to broad general principles to explain something that only requires a fairly narrow explanation.

at any rate, its 1221 am and i am off to bed.

[bemildred]

71. Sleep well. nt

[PhuLoi]

34. Qazplm, am I incorrect in arriving at the opinion that you are a

member of the officer corps? Regarding your opinion of Saigon68 painting with a broad brush: those of us who do so base our broad brushing on the hosing we took from so bloody many officers. If our jaundiced view of the officer class is offensive, at least it is rationally developed by experience gained well away from the Officers Club.

[qazplm]

37. today? yes.

a few years ago, no, I started off as a PFC, worked my way up to Sergeant.

My stepdad retired as a MSG, my mom was in the navy for two years enlisted, my dad was in the army reserves for 20+ years enlisted.

I have seen the inside of the enlisted club far more than the inside of the officers club, but thanks for the snarky assumptions lol

[PhuLoi]

43. There is the difference then. For myself, I did not "work my way"

to E-5 from E-0, it was thrust upon me for the crime of continuing to survive without REMF status. I vociferously declined OCS but upon continued pressure I was forced to point out that I was disqualified from admission to the Officer Corps due to my parents having been married. Not to each other, I'll grant you, but I saw no advantage in pointing that out.

[qazplm]

46. well golly

you really are a lot better than me then, what can i say, i suck, i mean after all, i just serve now as a REMF, albeit we get mortared twice daily but what do i know.

I am going to know run and resign my commission and hope to regain my honor as a private instead of a stinky no good officer.

[vincent_vega_lives]

90. Don't take it personal

There are the proffesional NCO's, ones who give and earn respect, and then there were the shitheads with the "poor me...I'm a victim" attitude who can't handle having some one in a position of authority over them.

[bemildred]

51. LOL. Excellent. nt

[MADem]

17. Some mindsets will not be changed

I have DECADES in uniform under my belt, and I know that what you are saying is the truth, but it doesn't fit with the mindset of some who oppose this effort, and you're probably spitting in the wind to try to change their minds. It's upsetting, but what can you do? The old first amendment at work and play!

I can support the troops and not the war, I can understand the need for a standing force and not like the way the pretzeldunce deploys them, I understand the concepts of duty, honor, country, and I respect these young kids, even with the silly bravado that is really just masking pant-pissing fear.

I like to place the blame squarely where it belongs: on the civilian leadership controlling the military. These kids are just unfortunate instruments of a flawed, foolish foreign policy. And if things keep up, we'll see many more of them involuntarily pressed into servitude--not by the "evil uniforms," but by the civilian fatcats in well tailored suits sitting on their lardasses in DC.

[DS1]

28. I can tell you from personal experience that 'raghead' is the term

for any person indigenous to the Middle East.

Raghead family sitting on a sand dune
Don't know Marines just sealed their doom
F Eighteen flying in the sky
make sure those ragheads fucking die

and other running hyms

[saskatoon]

85. Only one way to determine this

WOULD YOU DO WHAT THEY DID, regardles of how you hated what they had done to our side? Would you lose your self respect and act like a damn animal or would you uphold what AMERICA is supposed to stand for---ask yourself.

[TahitiNut]

86. Read about the Stanford Jail Experiment and Stanley Milgram's ...

... studies. The answer is "Yes" in the vast majority of cases. sad to say. Denial doesn't change this fact.

[DemoTex]

7. Sounds like C-3-2 at Ft. Polk in 1968.

Know what I mean?

[NYC]

4. Is this an unusual occurrence?

Does anyone know?

[Something of Reason]

27. Is this an unusual occurrence?

Yes, I believe it is.

Basic Training is not happy happy fun time, but neither should it be borderline torture. I did my basic training at Ft. Leonard Wood back in 94 and things were a lot less PC than they are now (and I'm sure they were even worse 10 years prior). Still, we spent a lot of classroom time doing equal oppritunity training, harassment training, that sort of thing.

There were lots of push-ups, sit-ups, running, Front-Back-Go (military people will know...) but I can't remember any instances where trainees were physically abused, or even pushed to far in physical training. I also spent 18 months as cadre on a M-16 rifle range on a basic training post, so while I was not a drill sgt, I worked with them about 15 days a week. Again, I can't recall any occasion where Drills got out of line. Cursing at trainees is about the harshest form of discipline I saw. Even though it is technically not supposed to happen, its generally overlooked. Cursing is part of the military, hehe. I'm guilty of it myself, I have a terrible potty mouth.

Typically though, our sensational ambulance chaser media will focus on the few bad apples, while millions of good soldiers, sailors and fly-boys (and girls now) go about doing an outstanding job.

[qazplm]

30. did it in 92 myself

i dont remember anything either. heck i dont think i remember my drills ever cursing to be honest, lots of yelling, but no cursing.

although one guy did wet his pants because DSgt wouldnt let him go to the latrine during D&C :P

actually basic seemed fairly easy to be honest...not as easy as OBC lol but still not the worst thing i have ever had to do. i also remember EO training, JAG briefings, etc.

[NYC]

72. Thanks for your response.

:hi:

[UpInArms]

6. I wonder if this news story will be included in the package

that is sent to parents when the recruiters are appealing to the patriotism to sign their children up for the military?

ah, probably not - nothing to see here, move on.

[saigon68]

10. The troop apologists are out in full force today

But then again these are only Fraternity pranks or hazing anyway </sarcasm>

[qazplm]

19. see this is why i have no respect for your opinions...

troop apologists?

and what does that mean exactly?

not a single person in this thread has condoned the actions of the original message.

every last person involved, if guilty, should be punished for assault, serve time in jail, be stripped of rank, and receive a punitive discharge.

so where is the "apologist" in that?

[MADem]

22. I don't feel that way, not at all

I think these recent difficulties in USMC and USA training (the kid who died in the pool, and this USA incident) are symptomatic of, as Bemildred pointed out, STRESS. Extreme stress. And those of us who have served know full well that it always seems to roll downhill, we've all been on the receiving end when the orders come down.

I think they are very SERIOUS. Not pranks, not hazing, not funny at all. I think they are a matter of EXTREME concern for all of us.

It just is not efficient from a training standpoint to go 'over the top' from providing an extremely challenging environment for a recruit to sujecting them to abuse. It does not improve performance, and anyone who has done that sort of duty knows it. But it is important to recognize that it is happening, and try to sort out WHY.

It tells us that something is going badly wrong in the training pipeline--it's either the goals of the training have been augmented and are unreachable, the pool of talent can't cut it, there's insufficient time to get the recruits trained, or some other factors.

[qazplm]

26. I would argue two things...

1. these leaders are just poor leaders, if you cant get a soldier to do something without resorting to physical violence you are a poor leader point blank.

2. nevertheless, i suspect the recent lowering of standards thanks to this pointless war has led to harder to train troops going through basic and AIT. we aint getting the top of the barrel anymore so to speak.

[MADem]

32. They've increased the accession rates for CAT IV and NHSG

You probably know that CAT 4's score 24 on the AFQT, the lowest 25%, barely breathing....and the non-high school grad accessions, which were almost nonexistent during Clinton (they'd take a kid with a GED if he scored CAT I or II, but there were VERY limited slots for those kids) is happening again. They are also increasing the number of kids with green cards--residents, but not citizens.

That's why I was curious about the experience level of the 0-3 charged. There's a huge difference in 0-3s, depending upon time in grade. A seasoned 0-3 is often almost as good as an 0-4, and in some cases better, because they don't have that attitude that understandably develops (hey, I got a promotion, I don't have to do this crap anymore!). A fresh 0-3, OTOH, can need a lot of hand-holding.

[qazplm]

35. well I am a JAG O-3

and as you may know, JAGs pretty much jump right to O-3 and then we stay at O-3 for eternity ;)

the problems I am seeing are:

1. O-3s are getting out by the bushel
2. therefore, LT's are getting to Captain in 3 to 3.5 years intead of the traditional 4
3. promotion to O-4 is happening early (being short CPTs ends up meaning you are short Majors) and the promotion rates are higher

having said THAT, it seems that a lot more officers these days are prior service than I remember when i was enlisted, then again, when you are enlisted you might know two or three officers total so that could just be a misperception on my part.

I did know that they are starting to take non high school grads, lot more GED's (about half of my court martial clients have GED's it seems), and there are more kids with green cards although I think that is more about the fact that you get the accelerated citizenship for serving nowadays and to be quite honest, the kids with green cards tend to make pretty decent soldiers from my limited experience.

we are seeing some problems with recruit quality though, no doubt, and with retention of quality soldiers and officers.

[MADem]

41. I started out enlisted and rose through the ranks

I made it a habit to pay close attention to youngsters with potential, and if they had some college, I would encourage them to finish and go to OCS, or apply for NROTC, or in the case of smart High School grads, to apply to the Service Academies if they met the age cut off. I also put a number of mid-level enlistees on the LDO and Warrant Officer tracks. In the course of my career, I shoved some 40 or 50 youngsters (many of whom are not young anymore) from the enlisted to the officer ranks. I shamed a number of my colleagues into doing the same. It takes a little extra effort, but the payoff to the service is that they get an officer who has seen both sides, and is a more effective leader.

Your point about the truncated promotion flow points is a good one. There's a reason why those flow points are well established--they work. When the services push people forward, and either promote ahead of schedule or spot promote without the proper experience level, you see gaps in effectiveness, and the entire organization suffers as a consequence.

[qazplm]

45. I have spent my entire

albeit thus far brief lol officer career encouraging any talented enlisted that i see to go green to gold (ROTC scholarship and then back as an officer).

I havent had as much success as you in convincing them lol, but I know a couple who are either considering it or doing other options like going warrant.

the thing is, many captains get out because:

a. they dont want to come right back over here in 1 year
b. they see that they can do better on the outside financially even in this weak economy

now the army is talking about stabilizing you in one place for up to seven years! used to be, you'd serve 2-3 years, then move to another place, now they want to stablilize.

of course, you get a crappy post (and that encompasses about 70% of all army posts) and you are stuck there for nearly a decade. you get a forscom (combat) post, and you may spend 3-4 out of the next seven in Iraq.

no thanks, i have two more years and then i am outta here to be a, i hope, federal defender.

[MADem]

52. Stabilizing (other service use other terms--eg homeporting)

...is regarded as a selling point for families. One can buy a house, the spouse can get a regular job with a career track, the kids do not have to change schools every three years, and it provides, as the title suggests "stability." They have been ramping up these efforts as BRAC shakes out the old facilities and consolidation continues.

I can't blame anyone for not choosing to stay, nowadays. It's not for want of patriotism that people are leaving as soon as they can, it's for want of effective, seasoned, and sensible civilian control of the military.

[qazplm]

54. i dont think many are buying it lol

what it means is joe snuffy is going to be spending 7 years with 1 ID and going back and forth to iraq every other year for the next 7 years.

[Something of Reason]

40. Weak Officers

Plus, in a basic training environment, a weak officer is going to get bullied by the drills. I saw it happen on a few occasions on the rifle range. The most obvious was with a guy named Captain Lee who was in his first command. The drills used to tell him to shut up if he disagreed with them, openly rolled their eyes when he talked or just ignored him. He basically let them get away with it. I didn't know Cpt Lee other than in passing, so I cant say if the Drills were justified or not, but its not a good example to set, ESPECIALLY in an IET traning environment.

Also happened to my XO in basic. He was a butter bar straight out of West Point. Our drills used to jack with him all the time. During FTX "hill assualt" drills, they had him "break off" and try to sneak up a small ravine where they had strung flash-bangs at eye level in trees that canopied the ravine. All we heard was a series of pops and then the XO staggered out of the ravine holding his head. I was to busy trying to stay out of trouble and not get volonteered for anything to really realize what was going on at the time, but in retrospect our drills treated the XO pretty bad.

[MADem]

44. You illustrated my point perfectly, thank you!

I think the reason that so many "newbies" are sent to training duty is that when you are on a warfighting footing, you want your best guys on the front lines. However, it's a false economy in the long run--you need to keep a few of them back, because it all starts in the training and orientation phases, and that experience can make all the difference in the quality of recruit you end up with.

[qazplm]

48. never saw that but dont doubt it happens

its almost natural for NCO's to test their leaders, if you show weakness or you arent competent, they wont respect you and then heck as an officer you might as well pack your bags.

Officers have to be smart enough to respect and listen to their NCO's and learn from them while still maintaining their position as commander.

It can be a fine line but you have to walk it, although the case that started this thread sounds more like it could have been the reverse, a bad egg officer who's example led to NCO's thinking thats the way it was done.

[vincent_vega_lives]

91. Poor NCOs

Anyone can be made to look the fool. Good NCOs realize that if they make their officers look like idiots it just hurts the unit and the soldiers know this.

Of course some new officers are ignorant, clueless or just plain thickheaded, but it mostly stems from inexperience and overeagerness. 2LTs that are fucked over by their E7s remember this and learn not to trust NCOs. The then become the O3 Pricks.

Good NCOs coach their LTs and help develop them.

[0007]

82. 0h fuck, you just wound em up again!

Paid assassins are paid assassins are paid assassins, time only changes the names & faces.

[vincent_vega_lives]

92. Paid assassins

Now that' just pure ignorance.

[lateo]

64. Not much has changed at Ft. Knox I see...

The same shit went on when I was there back in the 80's.

[5thGenDemocrat]

80. D-15-4, Fort Knox, Jan - Mar 1974, here

Drill sergeants couldn't physically touch us, but they surely called us names (their personal nickname for me was "Shitstick"), got right up in our faces and popped their p's and treated us like shit generally.
But I don't recall ever being punched or slapped or anything like that. Drill Sergeant Maifeld did bounce an "earth biscuit" (a small stone) off my steel pot when he thought I was dragging ass on one of our many, many marches, though.
John
So this type of behavior is unacceptable. For whatever reason and at any time. My BCT sergeants and officers were very good and very professional at what they did and I remember them with much respect, if not fondness.

[lateo]

81. I was there in 85...

And I routinely saw what the drills called "four wall counseling". I'm pretty sure there is an ebb and flow to the abuse.

[AndyTiedye]

73. The Marines Killed a Recruit Last Month

http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2965643
(Charleston, West Virginia-AP) Feb. 22, 2005 - A scholarship fund has been set up to honor the memory of a West Virginia Marine recruit who drowned earlier this month during water-survival maneuvers at Parris Island.

Nineteen-year-old Jason Robert Tharp of Sutton, West Virginia, died February 8th.

WIS News 10 caught on videotape an interaction between Tharp and a drill instructor on February 7th. The video shows a drill instructor yanking Tharp by the shirt and giving him a forearm one day before the recruit died.

The drill instructor and four other Marines shown in the video to have witnessed the incident have been suspended until an investigation is complete....

[Orsino]

75. Drill sergeant is an incredibly stressful job.

On the go all the time, eighteen-hour days regularly. And many/most of them don't choose the position. They are selected for drill sergeant school, and the cream are chosen for Basic Training, as I understand it.

It's the rare drill, in my experience, who really embraces the job, and cares for the soldier.

[saigon68]

83. That's why they produce war criminals who beat POW's to death

Just like the Guys who bayoneted American POW's at the Bataan Death March. They used Bayonets (called vitamin sticks) to keep the troops shuffling along.

[Orsino]

84. Y'know, I don't think the drills bear much of the blame...

JMAO, of course, but I believe the war criminals are made in combat zones, not in zero-defects training environments. Sure, the dehumanizing process starts in Basic, but outright cruelty? I think that flowers where the targets shoot back.

[saigon68]

93. You could be right.

Upon reflection I noticed that too.

I think it (becoming a serial killer and war criminal) is part of the "thousand yard stare" syndrome.

Although its hard to compare Lynndie England, Chuck Graner or Sabrina Harrmann to your model. I guess they can only be analyzed as toothless wonders influenced by the higher ups to kick the crap out of a few Islamics".

Although England tying her "USED KOTEX PADS" to the prisoners faces is in a League of her Own !!!!