WP: Gitmo Guards Accused of Mistreating Koran

[LibInternationalist]

Numerous detainees at the Guantanamo Bay military prison in Cuba told FBI interrogators that guards had mistreated copies of the Koran, including one who said in 2002 that guards "flushed a Koran in the toilet," according to new FBI documents released today.

The summaries of FBI interviews, obtained by the American Civil Liberties Union as part of an ongoing lawsuit, also include allegations that the Koran was kicked, thrown to the floor and withheld as punishment and that guards mocked Muslim prisoners during prayers.

More...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/25/AR2005052501395.html

[killbotfactory]

1. so newsweek was right

Good to know.

[UTUSN]

3. So Was Mary MAPES n/t

[Javaman]

6. They were always right,...

It was the WH that was wrong. Read the reports coming out of the International Red Cross and you will find that they have been reporting on Koran abuses for the past 3 years.

Smoke and mirrors folks, that's all* they got.

[ktowntennesseedem]

12. So was Dan Rather. -nt

[DFWdem]

14. Well, not necessarily...

"Numerous detainees at the Guantanamo Bay military prison in Cuba told FBI interrogators that guards had mistreated copies of the Koran, including one who said in 2002 that guards "flushed a Koran in the toilet," according to new FBI documents released today"

Of course, the detainees would never lie. In order to take this as proof that Newsweek was right, you're taking the word of the detainee over that of the soldier he's accusing. Accusations do not equal proof.

For the record, though, I think it probably happened, but just as accusations by prisoners do not equal proof, neither do my suspicions.

[CatWoman]

17. yeah, the detainness wouldn't lie

and Iraq had WMD, too.

A detainee told me so.

[DFWdem]

19. Seperate issues

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

[CatWoman]

30. how is it separate?

are you saying that Bush is innocent? He didn't lie to us about WMD? He didn't base his accusations on some "detainee" or incompetent, discredited witness' word?

or the detainee? he's not telling the truth? even tho he is probably innocent of any wrongdoing, is getting his ass kicked or raped on a regular basis -- and we are not to believe him?

how do you separate the two?

[DFWdem]

34. Hmmm

I'm not sure how you read all of that into me saying the guards at Gitmo are innocent until proven guilty, but okay. Oh yes, Bush is the most innocent man on the face of the planet. More innocent than even Ghandi or Mother Theresa.

I seperate the 2 because lying about WMD has nothing to do with a prisoner accusing people of flushing pages of the koran down the toilet.

[KansDem]

25. "A detainee told me so."

Who was this "detainee?" The one in the White House?

[CatWoman]

31. I should have used the sarcasm smiley

[KansDem]

33. No, not really...

I should have used it too. I was bashing Bush as a "White House detainee," one who is a "prisoner," put there by the PNACers and told what to do and what to say. He's nothing more than a stooge and errand boy for these neoCon fascists...

(I knew you were using :sarcasm:)

[Rosco T.]

18. Newsweek was using an internal FBI report... this is an FBI report...

therefor, given the information available Newsweek was right.

If FBI was wrong, they're to blame, NOT Newsweek.

Q.E.D.

[DFWdem]

21. Again, not necessarily

Depends on what the FBI report said. If it referred to allegations of mistreatment, that is not the same as proof of mistreatment. It's essentially a "he said/he said" case at the moment.

[CatWoman]

32. have you bothered to even READ the FBI story?

[DFWdem]

35. Yes i have, have you?

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=8606845&src=rss/topNews

"An FBI agent wrote in a 2002 document made public on Wednesday that a detainee held at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, had accused American jailers there of flushing the Koran down a toilet. "

"The newly released document, dated Aug. 1, 2002, contained a summary of statements made days earlier by a detainee, whose name was redacted, in two interviews with an FBI special agent, whose name also was withheld, at the Guantanamo prison for foreign terrorism suspects."

All it says is that the prisoners had ACCUSED the American jailers of flushing the koran. Does the report say the FBI had confirmed that the accusations were factual? Answer: no.

[CatWoman]

36. I don't understand your question or your problem

so now, in your mind, for this to be true, we need to have the detainee swear on a stack of bibles? is that your point?

'MORE CREDIBLE'

"Unfortunately, one thing we've learned over the last couple of years is that detainee statements about their treatment at Guantanamo and other detention centers sometimes have turned out to be more credible than U.S. government statements," said ACLU lawyer Jameel Jaffer.

[DFWdem]

38. No, that's not my point

Look, I think these reports are probably accurate. However, I'm not going to consider the word of a prisoner any more credibile than I will the word of the man guarding him. It's just acusations at this point. If we will convict someone on the base of allegations rather than hard evidence, what's the point in having a court system, juries, etc?

Spelling edit

[Seabiscuit]

69. Did Newsweek ever explicitly say it had "proof" that a jailer flushed the

koran down the toilet? I don't think so.

I didn't read the Newsweek blurb on the subject, but I doubt it ever mentioned the word "proof".

If Newsweek was merely reporting what was contained in an FBI report, and reported it accurately, jumping to no conclusions about "proof", then the Newsweek story was accurate, and the Bush administration is lying.

[lumpy]

37. Denial fogs the mind

and the truth.

[DFWdem]

39. So do rumors...

and unproven allegations ;)

[CatWoman]

41. gee, you sound just like these guys

http://news.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?action=l&board=37138445&tid=nmsecurityguantanamokorandc&sid=37138445&mid=2375

gonna evaluate the font size next?

[DFWdem]

42. Unfortunately...

I can't open that link. I'm at work and my company has a block on access to it. At any rate, as I stated before, it's not that I don't think it happened per se, I'm simply not going to take one man's word for it over another without corroborating evidence. And on that note I'm going home. Have a great evening! :)

[sallyseven]

24. Of course Newsweek was right.

Why do you think they got their shorts all twisted? The dick heads needed something to take the heat off of them. Our military has problems with the people who are willing to join. They are not able to understand what the laws are. They are not told and they think that Muslims are the devil. they are not told to treat them properly. Hence we have Abu Grabe and Gitmo. Horror stories.

[drduffy]

43. You mean

that you actually had doubts? You have got to be kidding.

[Logician]

70. ONE OF THE INTERESTING, RELATED QUESTIONS IS....

What exactly was said to Newsweek to change its position to one of falling all over itself to apologize for all the death and mayhem....

I wish some DUer could find out what Rove and crew have been saying to spineless MSM to make them crumble.

Now this would be an instructive and important story!

Also, with McLellan now asserting that the WH did not state that Newsweek's two paragraph article caused deaths, someone out there in DU land has to have a direct quote on this from Scottie with which he can be challenged.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

2. I knew

the WP (owner of Newsweek) was going to grow a spine on this one.

[plcdude]

4. well

now let's tell Newsweek to get some balls and retract their retraction. And let's ask the press secretary if he has some ideas on how he can make things right with the press? Unbelievable isn't it?

[maddezmom]

5. guess that's why Scotty backed down yesterday

f'ing jerks :mad:

[grasswire]

7. oddly enough...

...I don't see this story posted over at freerepublic.com

(snark)

[bullimiami]

8. of course newsweek was right.

now they should call out bushco as LIARS because they knew this information and still waged a propaganda campaign denying it.

[Kadie]

9. FBI Records Cite Quran Abuse Allegations

FBI Records Cite Quran Abuse Allegations
By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer
33 minutes ago


WASHINGTON - Terror suspects at the Guantanamo Bay prison told U.S. interrogators as early as April 2002, just four months after the first detainees arrived, that military guards abused them and desecrated the Quran, declassified FBI records say.

"Their behavior is bad," one detainee is quoted as saying of his guards during an interrogation by an FBI special agent in July 2002. "About five months ago the guards beat the detainees. They flushed a Quran in the toilet."

The statements about guards disrespecting the Quran echo public allegations made many months later by some detainees and their lawyers after prisoners' release from Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. The once-secret FBI documents show a consistency to the allegations and are the first indication that Justice and Defense department officials were aware in early 2002 that detainees were accusing their guards of mistreating the holy book.

Separately on Wednesday, Amnesty International urged the United States to shut down the prison, calling it "the gulag of our time." White House spokesman Scott McClellan said the human rights group's complaints were "unsupported by the facts" and that allegations of mistreatment were being investigated.

more...
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050525/ap_on_re_us/guantanamo_quran_1

[BlueEyedSon]

10. "They flushed a Quran in the toilet."

LMFAO... now what, Bushco?

[KansDem]

26. "...now what, Bushco?"

Perhaps we should ask: "Did the US Constitution go before or after the Quran?"

[lapfog_1]

11. That explains it...

Why some source leaked to the Post (that's right?) that the order
to shoot the Cessna was but moments away... only to be debunked
today by the Pentagon.

So let's see.

Newsweek posts a story ATTRIBUTED to someone in the Pentagon,
chaos ensues in the Muslim world (attributed to the story, but
maybe NOT), the SOURCE is discredited (not the story), Newsweek
is blamed for "many deaths" and so on... Newsweek meekly promises
to not write such stories again.

Post writes a story saying Newsweek may have been right after all.

Can't have that.

Pentagon immediately starts the same game to discredit the Post.

(shades of Dan Rather indeed).

[ktowntennesseedem]

13. Why does Washington Post hate America?

Don't they know that by reporting this, they are ruining our good name and harming our relations with the Middle East?

Please, WP, retract this, so our Muslim friends can go back to liking us again!

[Rose Siding]

44. At this point,

it seems almost rebellious of the Post to run with this. Maybe that's a good sign?

[ktowntennesseedem]

46. I'm barely optimistic enough to hope that.

Time will tell, I guess.

[wellst0nev0ter]

15. I Thought The Washington Post Had A Policy Of Being WH Assets

instituted last week by Whittaker.

Oh well.

[ourbluenation]

16. Newseek condemned but war is okay based on faulty intel

and the director of CIA gets a freedom of honor medal. What a sad, sad joke we are.

[Griffy]

68. faulty intel?.. its was FABRICATED intel... correct language!

like bush won the election.. no no no .. Kerry won, bush was inaugurated... or personal account to describe privatization..

[The Stranger]

20. Why is the New York Times STILL not reporting this?

Scooped again?

[The Stranger]

66. The New York Times is lying:

The accusation that soldiers had put a Koran in a toilet, which has been made by former and current inmates over the past two years, stirred violence this month that killed at least 17 people in Muslim countries after Newsweek magazine reported that a military investigation was expected to confirm that the incident had in fact occurred.

Newsweek retracted the report last week, saying it had relied on an American government official who had incomplete knowledge of the situation.

None of the documents released Wednesday indicate any such confirmation that the incident took place.

The documents are confirmation.

[XemaSab]

22. GOD FORBID

the MSM should draw attention to the fact that there are still not-POWs warehoused in dog cages in Cuba being held as terror suspects WITHOUT TRIALS for longer than the duration of the WW2.

[DoYouEverWonder]

23. Newsweek should demand Scottie's resignation

instead they stumble and mumble about how sorry they are, they didn't mean to cause any trouble, and they won't do it again, bla bla bla.

[BornLeft]

27. I think, maybe

Newsweek played this one right. Now not only did they appear to do the right thing by immed retraction, they can now point out the abuse of power the WH did when they pressured NW to retract. It's a double whammy on the evil empire, if NW plays it right.

[ronnykmarshall]

28. Yet the freepers on yahoo are still in denial.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&u=/nm/20050525/ts_nm/security_guantanamo_koran_dc_3

[daleo]

29. But the Pentagon doesn't necessarily agree

Heavy emphasis on the word necessarily.

The whole Newsweek controversy turned on whether there was a Pentagon report that admitted these events, not on whether they happened. It is like saying police brutality doesn't exist without a police report admitting to it, or government corruption doesn't exist without a pre-existing investigation.

[MADem]

40. The NEWSWEEK - WH issue has nothing to do with Koran flushing

...per se. It was just PAINTED to APPEAR that way. To rile the ole base, to put the press on the defensive, to shut up the left, yet again.

The actual whining had to do with whether or not the Koran flushing assertions had appeared in a classified SOUTHCOM report on detainee abuse. The guy who intially said he saw it, later, after the fact, said he wasn't positively SURE that he saw the allegation IN that particular report.

When the second source was asked to comment on the blurb, he corrected one item, but DID NOT correct the allegation that the Koran flushing allegations appeared in the SOUTHCOM report. Isikoff, et al, took that as a YES.

The fact that these allegations have appeared elsewhere is IRRELEVANT. The White House wanted the dumb people who don't follow along closely to think that NEWSWEEK either gave away a state secret, or made up a BIG LIE, depending on your political persuasion.

When will we know the truth? When the SOUTHCOM report is declassified. When will that happen? Who the fuck knows........?

[Chicago Democrat]

45. What's all this fuss about MISTREATING KOREANS!

I mean really! Just because their Korean! I just love Koreans; there's a nice couple down the block... and I like them..



Oh nevermind

[Up2Late]

47. FBI (2002) memo reports Guantanamo guards flushing Koran (Reuters)

FBI memo reports Guantanamo guards flushing Koran

Wed May 25, 2005 05:15 PM ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - An FBI agent wrote in a 2002 document made public on Wednesday that a detainee held at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, had accused American jailers there of flushing the Koran down a toilet. The release of the declassified document came the week after the Bush administration denounced as wrong a May 9 Newsweek article that stated U.S. interrogators at Guantanamo had flushed a Koran down a toilet to try to make detainees talk. The magazine retracted the article, which had triggered protests in Afghanistan in which 16 people died.

The newly released document, dated Aug. 1, 2002, contained a summary of statements made days earlier by a detainee, whose name was redacted, in two interviews with an FBI special agent, whose name also was withheld, at the Guantanamo prison for foreign terrorism suspects. The American Civil Liberties Union released the memo and a series of other FBI documents it obtained from the government under court order through the Freedom of Information Act.

"Personally, he has nothing against the United States. The guards in the detention facility do not treat him well. Their behavior is bad. About five months ago, the guards beat the detainees. They flushed a Koran in the toilet," the FBI agent wrote. "The guards dance around when the detainees are trying to pray. The guards still do these things," the FBI agent wrote.

The Pentagon stated last week it had received "no credible and specific allegations" that U.S. personnel at Guantanamo had put a Koran in the toilet. The documents indicated that detainees were making allegations that they had been abused and that the Muslim holy book had been mishandled as early as April 2002, about three months after the first detainees arrived at Guantanamo.

(more at link above)

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

48. Okay, Scotty. Whatcha gonna say tomorrow?

Nominated.

[YankeyMCC]

57. He's going to say

something like

"You're going to believe a criminal over the president?"

They're only reporting that the memo cites an allegation.

Now don't get me wrong I believe it to be true, more importantly most people around the world believe it to be true. I'm just saying that will be the spin they will put on this memo.

And they will frame it that way, letting people assume the detainee is a criminal...implying he was fairly detained and tried and convicted...which of course is all bullshit.

[Up2Late]

61. I bet I know what he's going to say, What?!? You expect us to remember...

a report written WAY BACK in 2002? I didn't even work here back then.

Yeah, that's the ticket, It's Ari Fleischer's fault...!:hide:

[sam sarrha]

49. so is Bu$h going to retract and apologise !! F'n wet brain alcoholic moron

[Triana]

50. The Newsweek Article DID NOT trigger the protests..

...Hamid Karzai himself and Gen. Meyers clearly stated that the protests and subsuqent deaths had nothing - repeat NOTHING to do with the Newsweek article. (I'm not screaming at you Up2Late, but I'm ranting at goddamned Reuters who has their story WRONG).

Other than that, this illustrates that Newsweek's information and story was correct, even if their source was unreliable - the story was still TRUE.

[Carolab]

51. Yep. Just like Rather's story was true. n/t

[Up2Late]

55. I understand completely, I've posted several Rants about the...

same thing. The Washington Post (Newsweeks Parent Company) is the only newspaper that has consistently reported the Newsweek story correctly.

Also, Newsweek did NOT retract the "Koran flushed" story. They retracted that the "Koran flushed" story had been reported in "...an official U.S. Government Investigated report." (not an exact quote)

Newsweek still may have been right, but the report that the (Koran flushed) report appeared in, was most likely pulled or classified.

[jimshoes]

52. They flushed a Koran in the toilet," the FBI agent wrote.

Scotty will claim everyone is taking that fact out of context. Just like every other lie they lie about while they're lying in cover up mode.

[Bluebear]

53. Scotty should resign in complete disgrace NOW

Oops. Forgot who was President. He'll get a commendation.

[DesEtoiles]

54. January 2003 Pentagon memo: "Don't Abuse the Koran" - this explains WHY

On Tuesday 5/17/05 the Washington Post ran a short article by Robin Wright, describing a January 2003 memo issued by the Pentagon regarding the proper treatment of the Koran at Guantanamo.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/16/AR2005051601320.html

This article intrigued me because it so clearly begged an obvious question:

Why did the Pentagon feel the need to issue such a memorandum, at that time, in that amount of detail, and specific to Gitmo?

The memorandum was issued about a year after the first detainees were brought to Guantanamo.

The memorandum is three pages long, with the gist being "don't defile the Koran."  But instead of a short admonition, the memo goes into detailed, specific procedures, even describing with which hand the Koran should be held and how it should not be turned over when being wrapped in a towel. (And isn't this issue already covered by the Geneva Convention and international law?)

The WaPo article states that the Pentagon "does not have a similar policy regarding any other major religious book".  

Are we to believe that someone at the Pentagon spontaneously (and without precedent) decided, while wading through the blizzard of torture memos floating around, that the Pentagon should officially develop and distribute a three-page policy memo on the proper handling of the Koran so as not to offend the religious sensibilities of detainees at Gitmo?  It certainly strains the credulity of any reasonable person to think so.

Add to that the fact that the Bush Administration was arguing in court during 2003 that the laws of the United States did not apply to Gitmo (i.e., detainees had no standing for recourse in American courts).

And add to this the fact that the Pentagon was wrong about everything (troop strength, greeted as liberators, Iraqi oil would pay for reconstruction, etc.). Why would anyone believe that they would have accurate foresight on the Koran abuse issue?


Res ipsa loquitur - From the Latin, meaning literally, "the thing speaks for itself", the doctrine of res ipsa loquitur is applied to claims which, as a matter of law, do not have to be explained beyond the obvious facts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Res_ipsa_loquitur

[hiley]

56. Up2Late

Thank you so much for posting this information.
solidarity
hiley

Nice church huh ?

In today’s climate of heightened religious sensitivities and apparent cultural clashes, now is the time for people of all faiths to better acquaint themselves with Islam’s sacred text, the Holy Quran.

The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) is proud to announce a new campaign intended to promote understanding of the Quran by distributing complimentary copies to any interested member of the American public. This campaign, titled Explore the Qur’an, serves as a response to those who would defame and desecrate the holy book of Muslims without full knowledge of its teachings.

snip---To request your free copy of the Holy Quran,
http://www.cair-net.org/explorethequran/
To donate to the Explore the Quran campaign.
http://www.cair-net.org/explorethequran/

For more information about the project, or to request a copy of the Quran via telephone, please call 1-800 78 ISLAM (47526).

http://www.cair-net.org/explorethequran/

[rocktivity]

58. But is this THE report--the one that Newsweek's source referred to?

:shrug:
rocknation

[sphincter]

59. Must be a full time job...

Seems like this current administration of yours spend half their time screwing things up and the other half trying to cover it up.

[katty]

60. Time to grovel Scotty

[Rex]

62. Good thing Newsweek detracted a story that was true.

We can't have that truth thingy getting out now can we?!?! People might start panicing if they found out how up shit creek we are in this country!

[Up2Late]

63. UPDATE: New link to updated story

Looks like the did some editing for clarity, added more U.S. Government denials.

<http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=8607805&pageNumber=0>

Also, these lines were removed:

("The guards dance around when the detainees are trying to pray. The guards still do these things," the FBI agent wrote.)

(The Pentagon had no immediate comment on the documents.

The United States currently holds about 520 detainees at Guantanamo, a high-security prison it opened in January 2002 for non-U.S. citizens caught in the U.S. war on terrorism.)

[Up2Late]

64. FBI records detail Koran claims (BBC News)

Thursday, 26 May, 2005, 00:30 GMT 01:30 UK

FBI records detail Koran claims

An inmate at the Guantanamo Bay prison camp accused US guards of flushing a Koran down the toilet back in 2002, declassified FBI documents reveal.

The disclosure follows a row over a similar claim made in Newsweek, which the magazine was forced to retract. The Newsweek claims sparked protests across the Muslim world, and riots in Afghanistan that killed 15 people. The Pentagon said last week it had seen "no credible and specific allegations" about putting a Koran in a toilet. Newsweek last week apologised for, and then retracted its report, after saying it could not corroborate the story.

The White House rounded on the magazine, saying its report had done "lasting damage" to the US image in the Muslim world. But the FBI documents made public on Wednesday, after a request from the human rights group American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), show that such allegations had been made at Guantanamo Bay.

After interviewing a detainee, an unnamed FBI agent wrote on 1 August 2002: "Personally, he has nothing against the United States. The guards in the detention facility do not treat him well. Their behaviour is bad. "About five months ago, the guards beat the detainees. They flushed a Koran in the toilet. "The guards dance around when the detainees are trying to pray. The guards still do these things."

(More at the link above)

[spooked]

65. READ FIRST HAND ACCOUNTS HERE,,,They didn't FLUSH the Korans

They put them in "Shit Buckets"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3730352

[Up2Late]

67. FBI memo reignites Qur'an furore (The Guardian)

FBI memo reignites Qur'an furore

Dan Glaister in Los Angeles
Thursday May 26, 2005
The Guardian

Further allegations that US interrogators at Guantánamo Bay flushed copies of the Qur'an down a toilet emerged yesterday, a week after the White House denounced reports of the incidents. Declassified FBI records showed that as early as April 2002 detainees at the US prison in Cuba had denounced the treatment of the Qur'an by guards. "Their behaviour is bad," one detainee is quoted as saying in July 2002. "About five months ago the guards beat the detainees. They flushed a Qur'an in the toilet."

The report, written by an FBI agent, continued: "The guards dance around when the detainees are trying to pray. The guards still do these things." The documents were released to the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) under the freedom of information act.

While the Pentagon had no immediate comment on the release of the documents, ACLU lawyer Jameel Jaffer told Reuters: "Unfortunately, one thing we've learned over the last couple of years is that detainee statements about their treatment at Guantánamo and other detention centres sometimes have turned out to be more credible than US government statements." The documents echoed allegations made in a Newsweek article published on May 9. That article was denounced as inflammatory and blamed for rioting in Afghanistan which resulted in the deaths of 16 people.

Last week the magazine published a retraction, but went on to detail further allegations of desecration of the Qur'an by US military interrogators. Last week the magazine published a retraction, but went on to detail further allegations of desecration of the Qur'an by US military interrogators. The story was subsequently withdrawn after the magazine found itself under attack from a furious White House. Scott McClellan, White House spokesman, insisted Newsweek had "got the facts wrong".

(more at link above)