Communion only for good politicians (says Vatican cardinal)

[sonicx]

(ANSA) - Vatican City, October 7 - Politicians whose actions undermine the traditional family based on marriage should be refused Communion, a top Vatican cardinal said on Friday .

Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, head of the Vatican department dealing with family affairs, denied that Catholics in politics had the option of believing one thing privately while acting in a way which implied another .

snip

"They must know that by proposing and defending unjust laws, such as those that don't protect the family (they have) a serious responsibility and they must put right the evil done in order to have access to Communion," Cardinal Trujillo said .

"Can you allow Communion to those who deny human and Christian values?" he added, in a speech to the meeting of bishops from around the world.

snip

Trujillo paid particular attention to the issue of legal recognition for unmarried couples, including same-sex couples. He said these were a "juridical fiction" which should be condemned because they implied a valid alternative to marriage.

http://ansa.it/main/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2005-10-07_1484836.html

[MADem]

1. Time for America to break with Rome, I think n/t

[Why Syzygy]

2. So he's saying

Jeebus saves? But only if you're in compliance with the mores of the Catholic church. Where have I heard this before?

[cap]

3. what about the rest of us back-sliders---

and what about pro-choice Republicans? I guess the church will come out in force against a Guiliani Presidential campaign?

[Deep13]

6. Nice to see someone finding a silver lining to this.

:evilgrin:

[Cha]

64. Really!

:evilgrin:

[Deep13]

4. Tax exemption only for good religions

and not for politial lobbyists with miters.

Allowing a bishop to tell you how to vote or what laws a legislator may or may not support is no different than having a king. Giving in to that is disloyal to the Constitution and servile.

[BiggJawn]

34. Agreed! No 501C3 for political meddlers!

Trying to lean on a lawmaker by threat of witholding grape juice and EuchaRITZ crackers from him is despicable...

Tell ya what, Trujjy ol' boy....You keep YOUR Religion OUT of MY Government, and I'll keep MY Government OUT of YOUR religion....

Capisce?

[Gnostic]

121. No 501C3 period

Time for all organized religions to ante up.

[sarcasmo]

115. Great one, LMFAO.

[sasha031]

5. how about politicians that advocate war and torture

is that ok?

[Deep13]

8. Don't you know that human rights begin at conception,...

...but end at birth? Anyway, all that suffering will make them closer to God. x(

[mom cat]

10. Yep...and those who brutalize the poor...this "ruling" is awfully

selective.

[Why Syzygy]

As long as they aren't "gay"

Raping the altar boys does not count. Just outright gay and proud of it.

As long as you have some shame about you, you have a chance with mainstream religion. You know. Wouldn't want you to go thinking you were actually created by intelligent design or anything.

Does the oxymoron-ism train ever end?

Reply to post #5 .. got caught out of the # signal.

[Marnieworld]

7. So all those Republican Pro-Death Penalty pols count too?

This is an attack against Pro-Choice Catholics or Pro-Gay Marriage Catholics Democrats but what about the Pro-Death penalty Repubs? They aren't being good Catholics shouldn't they be refused Communion as well?

Jesus was all about denying people I'm sure. :eyes:

[dicknbush]

49. Excellent Point

Excellent Point

[AngryOldDem]

99. Ah...the death penalty is DIFFERENT

It's a double standard that many in the Church have been applying for years, which drives me crazy. Basically, they say that the state knows best in this issue -- when to apply it and when to not -- even though John Paul II was perhaps the most eloquent anti-death penalty pope we have ever seen. These Catholics often point to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which says the penalty should be "rare." To them, that gives the state the license to do what it wills. However, if that word is taken in context with the rest of the CCC's comments on the death penalty, it is clear that the Church believes there is NEVER any reason for a society to invoke death. I have read that the language is couched so as to not interfere with autonomous political systems around the world, but the meaning is still crystal clear. If those in the Church truly believe that all life is sacred, then that includes the sinner's as well as the saint's. Most of us in the Church, I think, make that distinction.

Trouble is, there are too many politicians who are on the Church's side on other matters that some are willing to turn a blind eye to this glaring contradiction in how the death penalty is addressed.

One more thing about "pro-choice" Catholics: When Arlen Specter was in that primary runoff a year ago against a pro-lifer (Pat Toomey, I think it was) good Catholic Rick Santorum endorsed Specter. As did Bush, that other staunch defender of life from cradle to grave. That, too, also flew under most Catholics' radar. Go figure.

[Moochy]

109. I argued once

In my highschool catholic theology class that the reason the Vatican has that double standard was because they are a state. That way they can always justify putting someone to death if they needed to.

My teacher the priest did not appreciate that logic. :evilgrin:

[Scurrilous]

132. I doubt the Vatican will be putting anyone to death soon..

...Vatican City outlawed the death penalty in 1969.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html

[Gnostic]

122. I'm suspicious

Of anyone still not evolved and/or intelligent enough not to be able to throw off the yoke of ancient superstitions and ritualistic, indoctrinating organized religions, mostly because I think they are partly insane, and too backward and servile to be trusted with any say or influence in governmental policy shaping.

They should also be paying taxes instead of building all those nifty million dollar churches on that prime real estate in the burbs.

But I digress.

[Sandpiper]

9. Decrees on Marriage from the sexless and celibate

Maybe next the good Cardinal can tell us about the pain of ovarian cancer.

[DemGirl]

12. This from the hosts of the pedophile picnics???

:wtf:

[Gnostic]

123. LOL

[Sandpiper]

15. Self delete

[Southpaw Bookworm]

31. Already done

Except not just the good Cardinal but the Vatican itself: Try getting an ectopic pregnancy or fibroids requiring a hysterectomy treated at a Catholic-affiliated institution. You'd bleed to death on the table from a rupture first.

[lumpy]

45. All the Catholics I have known

pay little attention to the church edicts. Threats from the church don't stop them from divorcing, using the pill, skipping confession and a host of other edicts designed to keep catholics in line. They only thing left for those people is a crippling sense of guilt and fear of hell.

[Scurrilous]

128. True...

...I find it hilarious that some people believe Catholics are somehow forced to obey the edicts of the Vatican.

[HockeyMom]

133. Exactly what happened to me

Lay in that catholic hospital bed until my tube burst from the ectopic pregnancy. They couldn't "kill" that baby. Then to add insult to injury, they said it was a MIRACLE that with all my internal bleeding, that I didn't go into a coma.

Nice compassionate people, right?

[davidinalameda]

11. Can you allow Communion to those who deny human and Christian values?"

didn't realize hatred for gays and lesbians was a human and Christian value

must have missed that part of the bible

[Deep13]

13. Jesus was soft on sinners.

All that stuff about thowing stones and judging not and turning the other cheek, it was all crap.

[Sandpiper]

16. Gays are the new Jews for the RCC

Got to have somebody to hate on.

[sasha031]

18. Time to Do Some "Outing" in Vatican City

I visited the Vatican in early August and met a person who is deeply "embedded" in the world of those who run Vatican City and who govern the global machinery of the Catholic Church.

According to this person's estimation, he guesses that a "conservative estimate" of those cardinals and senior church officials who are gay is about 50%. Practicing, as opposed to just flirtatious, homosexuals at the highest levels of the church are probably about 30%.

When I asked whether homosexuals would be better served under Pope Benedict XVI than under John Paul II, he responded, "Don't think that we will be any better served under a gay pope than a straight one."

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/000960.html

[Deep13]

52. fuckin' A, Bubba.

Jesus is the light of the world, so let that light shine in all the secret places.

[VegasWolf]

14. Yawn --- sky people won't allow communion. Okay. nt

[Straight Shooter]

17. That Roman Rodent should just shut up.

Speaking as a lapsed Catholic, I find no incentive to back to a judgmental hypocritical institution that would allow such intolerance.

Hey, Cardinal, "Judge not, lest ye be judged." A far better man than you said that.

[MindPilot]

19. I can't believe in the 21st century people still engage in a rite

of cannibalism.

Anyone that barbaric is not fit to hold any position of leadership.

[IntravenousDemilo]

20. Our Prime Minister is a Roman Catholic

and our country has recently legislated equal marriage rights for every couple, regardless of sex. Paul Martin has been threatened with excommunication, and has responded appropriately, more or less telling the pope to shove it.

[VegasWolf]

22. US politicans have no balls, do not think for themselves, and worry

constantly what the Puritan freaks in this country think. Good for you guys!!!

[IntravenousDemilo]

27. And look at Spain and Belgium.

Lots of Catholics there, especially in Spain. What's His Naziness going to do to them?

[karynnj]

37. How on earth can you say this

when nearly Kerry, Kennedy, Durbin and many other Catholic politicians have argued that their interpretation of the constitution means they do not agree that they can legislate thier church's version of morality.

Last year, in at least one article, it was mentioned that John Kerry's staff carefully checked out whether he would be welcome at Catholic churches. As a Catholic, who attends mass, he had to worry that some of the churches would choose to humiliate him by publicly refusing to give him communion. The church meant enough to him that he continued to go and the constitution meant enough to him that he didn't take the easy way out on issues like partial birth abortion.

[VegasWolf]

44. I meant what I said. US politicans worry too much about what the

Puritan freaks think. Period.

[karynnj]

55. Maybe because there are way more "puritan freaks" in the US

than in the other countries mentioned. So calling them "puritan freaks" or deliberately antagonisizing them is not helpful.

Can you give an example of any Democrat you feel is quilty?

[VegasWolf]

71. Yes, you are correct, there are! The US is very backwards when

it comes to morality among civilized nations. Many countries are far more liberal than we are. I am tired of all the religious crap I've seen in the last 6 yeARS HERE.

[ngGale]

124. Ding, ding....

right on spot. Only the Catholic Dems will have their communion taken away.:sarcasm:

[HockeyMom]

76. Morning After Pill

Cannot remember his name, but it was a Catholic State Legislator (actually even a Republican) who sponsored the bill here, which Pataki vetoed, to provide over the counter Morning After Pill. He said something to the effect that he was elected State Legislator, not a CARDINAL, and it was his duty to represent Buddhists, Hindu, Muslims, Atheists, etc, not just CATHOLICS.

[SpiralHawk]

21. Pope to Planet: "You are either with us, or against us."

Now where have we heard that crap before?

[Sandpiper]

23. Planet to Pope

*Yawn*

[truebrit71]

24. But covering up for child-rapists is okay? Whatever you tool....

...fuck you and your fake religion....

[hollowdweller]

88. Jesus was stripped naked, whipped and interrogated- what about torture?

[Missy M]

25. Who listens to this nonsense coming from someone who...

doesn't have a family, traditional or otherwise and probably never will. What are unjust laws according to this Cardinal? I believe the US has many laws protecting the family. I for one do not want a Cardinal from Rome telling US politicians what their laws should be, that is up to the citizens of the US.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

26. Wait... Didn't Martin Luther solve this problem in the

16th century?

[IntravenousDemilo]

29. Yes, he and Henry VIII

As I recall, the pope had something to say about whom Henry married. And the rest is history.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[txaslftist]

28. I can see he's a firm believer in the wall between church and state.

I think we should pass a law that says catholic priests have to give confession in both Spanish and English.

Since apparently the church wants to impact politics, maybe politics ought to impact the church.

And by the way, if the church is going to be taking political positions, shouldn't they be paying taxes, too?

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zhade]

30. Tax them. Now.

NT!

[Bragi]

32. Catholic Pols will now have to choose

Truth is this kind of ruling means that responsible electors will have to ask any Catholic candidates if they will follow what their constituents want, or whatever policies Rome tells them to follow.

As a former Catholic, I know I will be asking this question, and any candidate that openly claims to care more what Rome says than what the voters say will not get my vote.

- B

[cally]

33. I don't see how Catholic politicians should be elected

Remember the issue with Kennedy and him saying that he was not ruled by Rome. What the new Vatican is saying is that Rome should control the political actions of US politicians who are Catholic. I would have a very difficult time voting for a Catholic politician who believes priests in Rome should tell him or her how to vote or legislate. A politician would need to distance himself. I do think in this case, religion does matter.

[karynnj]

40. Look at the religion of the most liberal members of the Senate

hint: there are a disporportionate number of Jews and Catholics.
Jews: Feingold, Boxer, Lautenberg
Catholic: Kennedy, Kerry, Durbin, Reed (RI), Leahy, Dodd

[cally]

46. I know but the vatican is changing the rules

I had no problem with the religion on any politician or lack thereof. The vatican is now saying that they should control the political actions of Catholic politicians. Whether a Catholic politician accepts this teaching needs to be asked.

I see the teachings of the Catholic faith changing. There is a purge of leaders and a push for more control by Rome.

[karynnj]

56. Which will likely be very painful for any reasonably religious

liberal Catholic. I think JFK's statement that his religion will not dictate politics for him is not far from where most libveral Democrats are. The Catholic church that most of the Catholic Senators were brought up in emphasized social work to improve society. Some Catholic priests were leaders in the anti- war movement in the 70s. Historically, many leaders in the labor movement and other social action movements were Irish Catholic or Jewish. Dorthea Dix led the fight for reasonable treatment for the mentally ill. In the debates, Kerry talked about what he got from his religion.

The church has gradually shifted to the right. Lately that shift seems to have accelerated. The church is hierarchial and has asserted that certain dogma must be followed. In, the past this hasn't worked well - there are too many Catholic families with 2 or 3 nicely spaced kids to assume many didn't use birth control.

If the church becomes more rigid on these issues, the people caught in the middle will be religious Catholic politicians who feel the constitution which they respect is not compaible with legislating their faith's views. I think the shredding of the public/private argument will be extremely difficult for these people (like Kerry) and I do not see them following Rome on this. The Pope can and does make the rules in the Catholic church and they may well be labeled as outside the church. The Catholic church risks losing the younger "Kerrys" to the Episcopal church - but they may opt to do this to be a smaller more homogeneous (in beliefs) church.

[cally]

60. The longtime Catholics who don't agree with the shift to the

new doctrine will be the most hurt by this. Their church is leaving them. Those less attached will leave the church. I feel for all those who are facing this dilemma. I think some of the more fundie Protestant churches and more conservative Jewish synagogues are moving in the same direction. I don't like it but if your faith requires political obedience then it's fair to ask about this.

I don't think we disagree on this at all.

[karynnj]

66. But Judaism is different

There is no one person with the authority of the Pope and you can shift between the various branches of Judaism without feeling you've left the faith - there is diversity even among the Orthodox.

I agree with you that there will be long term Catholics who will be hurt by this. Also, there are ideas within Catholocism that make it harder to leave than in most religions.

disclaimer: I'm a Jew who belongs to a reconstructionist synagogue, who previously attended Reform and Conservative synagogues - the changes were not based on changes in religious belief but in finding friendly communities. I converted from RC years ago.

[IndianaGreen]

116. The Church left them when Rome sided with the pedophile priests

against the faithful that were demanding accountability.

The question I ask is this: is it fair for us to demand from liberal Catholic politicians to choose between their conscience and their Pope? I don't know the answer to that. The late President Kennedy would find himself at odds with Rome were he alive today.

The majority of American Catholics do not adhere to blind obedience to rigid ideology. There is a long-standing tradition in the American Church on following one's conscience.

The American Catholic Church has a long history of siding for the poor, against segregation, etc. It seems that lately, with the increasing influence of cults such as Opus Dei, that the Church of Rome is becoming indistinguishable from Christian fundamentalists.

[meow2u3]

126. Repuke politicians are probably forcing the Vatican to change the rules

They must have some dirt on the clergy. The repunks are probably going to threaten to out (or defame) Vatican higher-ups as either gay or pedophiles unless they make a ruling which denies pro-choice Democratic, but not pro-choice Republican, politicians communion.

I wouldn't put it past those criminals in the GOPunk party to coerce the Vatican to make American Catholics vote Republican--or else!

[IndianaGreen]

61. I won't vote for a Catholic unless he/she disavows Rome

The Episcopal Church will welcome Catholics that are pissed off at Rome. What did you really expect from Ratzi?

[Rich Hunt]

101. better still

I'd rather vote for a pro-choice Republican than vote for ANY Catholic.

I'd rather vote for a conservative Democrat than a liberal Catholic.

That's 'cos racism is more important to me than logic. As well as my own private class war.

Fuck what the politicians have to say. Fuck reason. I'm not associating with any Catholics until they become 'firm' Protestants like me!!

Oh yeah, other people call it 'cultural genocide', but isn't it time those nasty Irish, with their big fat mouths get in line and bow down to the king?

After all, we own their social security numbers already anyway.

[Zhade]

110. Sreiously - get help. You sound like you're going insane.

No one gives a fuck about your paranoid persecution complex.

No one mentioned the Irish but you.

Seek therapy, for your own sake. Please.

[Moochy]

102. I cant' see a US Catholic Politician

I personally can't imagine a US politician running for office with a "lifeline" to Rome. The fears about Kennedy were unfounded, because despite the reverence and respect for the office, I think many feel as I did, that the Pope was some quaint relic, a medieval trapping, not a political puppetmaster who called the shots for US politicoes.

The pope may have a medieval mindset and expect the laity to ask how high when he says jump, but that kind of obedience is notably unreliable, and certainly so for politicians in these secular united states.

[Rich Hunt]

95. yeah, I agree!

Let's face it. Catholics are just plain creepy. How people can stay in a creepy idol-worshipping religion that tolerates and encourages pedophilia is beyond me.

[Moochy]

104. If you are not being sarcastic

:sarcasm: works wonders... BTW aint the bigotry and tolerance upthread grand?

[Rich Hunt]

106. I won't use that

I won't use that icon...it has blood on it, and I've seen some nasty people use it as a code, a veiled threat.

'Cos some people have the nerve to come up here and talk in code and think they can get away with it.

[Moochy]

108. Thanks for the decoding

I'm with you, I get very incensed and have struggled to put into words some kind of reply to the bigoted, anti-catholic broadbrush attacks.

Being ex-catholic is not sufficient for me to not feel annoyed at the superior smug attitude of the folks who are most probably engaged in the kind of behind the scenes racist bullshit.

I see what you mean about the sarcasm icon, and after reading your thread up post, the longer one, your sarcasm is likely obvious to all.
(except dimwits like me)

You described exactly the venomous racism that spews forth from smug "democrats" who seem ready to make the assumption that the pope has a mind control device installed in every catholic's brain, and that every Catholic priest is a child predator waiting to pounce.

[Scurrilous]

130. There are currently...

...131 Catholics in the House and 24 in the Senate. They, like all members of Congress, took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. None to my knowledge have taken a vow or an oath to obey the Vatican.

[Maine-ah]

35. fine then. Any fucking church that gets involved in politics

should have it's fucking tax exempt status revoked.

[dicknbush]

43. Eaxactly

For that matter they should all have the tax exempt status removed. NOW

[superconnected]

53. any church that doesn't accept all people but only a special group

should have their tax exempt status revoked.

[williesgirl]

36. I'm Catholic and they make me sick. Lose tax exempt status

if they don't keep their noses out of political issues. As far as receiving communion goes, they tried that with divorced Catholics and it never flew here in the US. I agree it's time to break with the Vatican. They are more like the Gestapo.

Did they receive communion while hiding all the pedophiles from the law and then trying to blame the victims that came forward? Not only did they receive, they continued to give it out to us.

THEY ARE A DISGRACE.

[lumpy]

38. The Catholic Church has always

used the threat of denying Holy Communion if you don't 'behave'. Unless, of course, you get special permission from the Pope. The Church is against multiple marriage (considered adultry), but one can petition to get approval from the Vatican for remarriage. My experience with the Episcopal Church was similar. My minister told me, 'no problem', we will just consider the first marriage invalid (in spite of the fact 12 years of marriage and a child). Needless to say, this and many other instances of hypocricy turned me away from the church and it was a profound relief to be free from that stifling sort of atmosphere.

[regnaD kciN]

82. You misunderstand the theology of marriage...

My experience with the Episcopal Church was similar. My minister told me, 'no problem', we will just consider the first marriage invalid (in spite of the fact 12 years of marriage and a child).

According to mainstream Christian theology, marriage has two aspects: the "natural" and the "sacramental."

Lots of people have natural marriages, including all non-Christians. Basically, that sort of marriage is a civil union. However, Christian sacramental marriage is supposed to be a lifelong committment of fidelity to each other and to God.

The annulments you so misdescribe are simply declarations, after an appropriate investigation, that the marriage was so flawed from the start (generally on pre-existing psychological grounds) that a true sacramental marriage was impossible. That allows each or the ex-partners to enter into new marriages (hopefully, after receiving some therapy to deal with the problems that doomed the previous one). However, it only declares that the prior marriage was never a sacramental one. It still remains a valid, if ended, civil marriage. (In fact, the decree of nullity I received from my Episcopal bishop back in 1984 specifically declared that it did not affect the status of the civil marriage, nor the legitimacy of our daughter.) In other words, neither the length of the marriage nor any number of children has any bearing on the decision of whether or not the marriage was sacramentally valid. (Nor, to state the obvious, does "proof" that the couple was having sex...it's pretty much assumed that they did, children or no children.) Lots of members of other religious faiths, or those with no religion whatsoever, enter into marriages and have children -- that doesn't make them sacramental marriages.

[muriel_volestrangler]

91. So a church marriage is provisional?

Even if you think you've been married in the church's eyes (your Episcopalian one, anyone), they're saying it's just a trial partnership, that cannot be said to be sacramental until an investigation is done at some later date?

Wow, that sounds more like an attack on the institution of marriage than any same-sex marriage. If you feel your marriage is strong, are you allowed to have a church investigation into it, to have it declared sacramental? I'd guess a lot of couples would want that.

[lumpy]

113. My first marriage was 'sacramental',

performed in church according to the Standard Book of Common Prayer. not flawed generally on pre-existing psychological grounds or any other pre-existing grounds. There was no 'appropriate investigation' of my original marriage what-so-ever. In spite of the fact that I realized this was a hypocritical view of marriage vows, I remained a member of the Church, participating in Holy Communion and church services. The point is that the church can come up with any meaninglesss reason to declare that a marriage is 'flawed', therefore allowing that the marriage is invalid to allow marriage to another. The minister I mentioned told me to consider that the first marriage was not a marriage at all (invalid). Not that I no longer give a damn, but to me this is hypocritical. I have known divorced Episcopal women who have had full-blown white weddings in the Episcopal Church. The Church will do more than bend over to retain their members. I am content to believe in the pure teachings of Christ without the trappings of incense, genuflexing, bells and baubles.

[NickB79]

39. Fine then, they better deny communion to divorcees as well

After all, what's more destructive to the traditional family than allowing the couple to divorce one another?

Let's see how the God-fearing Repub men on their 2nd or 3rd trophy wife react when they're lumped in with gay-rights supporters and pro-choice activists.

[karynnj]

57. I think they do If the divorcee remarries without an annulment

[muriel_volestrangler]

92. More importantly, they should deny it to any politician who allows divorce

to remain legal, by the logic of this cardinal. It's not a question of if the politician has divorced themselves - if they allow an 'anti-family' law like divorce to stay on the books, he's saying they can't accept communion in a Catholic church.

[mitchtv]

41. does that include the Groper?

if he even goes to church

[dicknbush]

42. This of course means that the evangelicals in this country should not rece

At least as far as the Catholic Church is concerned!

Leave my politics alone and I won't tell you what to do with your churches as long as they are not molesting my children. If that happens I will disrupt every mass every Sunday!

[Disturbed]

47. Off topic but curious.

Gay men not allowed as priests. Still ok for nuns to be lesbians?

[FrankX]

117. Evangelicals can not receive communion in a Catholic Church.

They are not in communion with the Catholic church. They don't believe the same thing about communion.

[DiverDave]

48. But it's O.K. to

have sex with a 12 year old...fucking hypocrites, I hope they lose everything in the lawsuits.

[VegasWolf]

50. At least the Catholic Church does not burn heretics at the stake like

they used to. Not receiving communion, not so bad!

[OKthatsIT]

51. Roman Church is at it again...damn the poor and their representatives

screw the Pope and all his anti-life, anti-woman/child rules.
These crazy people really want the Earth destroyed.

The basic beliefs are anti-earth life. Their ultimate goal is going to heaven, earth be damned!

I wish all the christians would just get a fast train, outta here!

[Skidmore]

54. To hell with the Catholic church.

I didn't vote for a person because he's catholic. I vote for the person because they are American and they are to represent me, a non catholic.

[Rich Hunt]

105. exactly

I'd rather vote for a fellow Protestant than a fucking Catholic who is more liberal.

Fuck liberals, and fuck those dirty urban ethnics, and fuck the cities who shelter them.

Fuck Chicago, too - blackball the whole damn city, and the state that shelters it, too.

They've been harboring too many Democrat Catholics for far too long. And look how 'conservative' they are...you know, voting against the Iraq War and supporting gay civil rights and all. You'd think they were Jews or something the way those filthy vermin behave.

You can start with the Catholic governor and Mayor. Bring back the Republicans to that state - I'd rather have them than a bunch of filthy Catholics.

[ignatius 2]

58. Would undermining the family not also include starting wars that

maim,massacre and brutalize said families? Fascism in the guise of religion is particularly nauseous.

[Disturbed]

59. In a bit of fairness the last Pope was

anti-Iraq war and against the Death Penalty. The Catholic Church is a big business and the Vatican is an actual state within Italy. A few billion people believe in the Catholic message. Most in Amerika are cafateria Catholics. I feel that organized religions are big biz enterpises and the Catholic Church is one of the largest. No tax exempt for all churches should be considered.

The man below claimed that God was with the Reich. SS troops wore belt buckles with "Gott ist mitt uns" "God is with us." God bless Amerika.

[jazzjunkysue]

62. "Good" being somewhere in the $10,000-$50,000 range.

[HockeyMom]

63. Are the churches going to start COUNTING

the number of children the parishoners have and deny THEM Communion? Sorry. Married 5 years no kids? Married 15 years and only 2 kids? NO communion for you?

Not on your life. They need THEIR MONEY.

[xchrom]

65. and to think you can get that far in life and be that stupid.

[antonialee839]

67. As opposed to the pedophiles who were doing one thing while

preaching another? Two of them came right from my own church. My children attended school there. I am sick of these hypocrites, and it will be a long time (if ever) before I step one foot in that place.

[Solly Mack]

68. Oh Fuck the Vatican and all it's occupants

I got enough people trying to be my master - so folks in the Vatican can kiss my ass.

If the Vatican continues to interfere with American politics through intimidation and religious extortion, then Vatican City should be invaded and occupied. :)...and definitely overthrown...they can be a government or a church...but they can't be both. Those days are long gone. Church law doesn't mean shit to a secular society.

[IndianaGreen]

72. While I fully share your sentiments about the Vatican

I must wonder about the pain and sorrow that our liberal Catholic friends must be experiencing right now.

:grouphug:

[Solly Mack]

73. You have a point

and I should always be mindful of such things...my anger gets the better of me at times.

[Zhade]

80. Liberal Catholics don't occupy the Vatican.

Rightwing bigots like Ratzinger do.

Liberal Catholics might not even get past the front door!

[leftchick]

94. I am one Liberal Catholic suffering right now.

I am truly in despair. :cry:

[AngryOldDem]

96. Pain, sorrow, and embarrassment

The hierarchy does not speak for me, nor does it for many, many other Catholics.

As I am often fond of saying: Christ gave only two commandments. Love thy neighbor as thyself, and love thy God with all thy heart, all thy might, and all thy soul. The rest, as they say, is commentary. And that is where I put most of the pronouncements that come out of Rome. Rome does not interfere with my Catholicism. I think I live it fully without the Vatican's input, thanks very much.

[FrankX]

118. Liberal Catholics vote. Many hispanics are Catholic and vote.

We need their votes.

[really annoyed]

69. Vatican...

You are not the master of the United States. We've got a Constitution to protect us from your demands! :evilgrin:

By the way, do politicians who support war and the death penality count in your witch hunt?

[Tight_rope]

70. LMBAO...When I read the title.."there are no good politicians"

:spank:

[JerseygirlCT]

74. Well then I'd like to see this enforced for those who

support the death penalty. Or the war in Iraq.

I won't hold my breath.

[cyr330]

75. Question

How could any person in his/her right mind take this ridiculous religion seriously? It's so completely absurd & brings to mind the fairy tale about the emperor having no clothes--nobody dares to bring it up. . . Furthermore, the so-called "leader" of the entire affair is an ex-Nazi with venemous homophobic tendencies. What a great place to worship!

[mitchum]

78. Exactly! At least,"the Easter Bunny" and "Santa Claus" actually delivered

still wasn't enough to make me keep believing in them, but they actually did deliver (unlike the conmen in the collars with their almighty skygod)

[really annoyed]

83. Be careful with your words...

You'll be labeled as a religious bigot!!

[mitchum]

77. Who cares what some Italianate Voodoo practicing freak thinks?

[Leeny]

79. Reminds me

I worked on a campaign for Lucy Killea who was running for the California State Senate down in San Diego, California. She was a Catholic and was vocal about her pro-choice position. The bishop of her church excommunicated (is that the right term?) her because of it. Oh, it was fun walking precincts after that. I knocked on one door and a woman answered, wearing a cross and surrounded by six small, noisy, bouncing children. I figured anything I had to say was pointless, so I politely handed her the walk piece and went on my merry way. I'll never forget the look on her face. She was somewhere between "proud Catholic" and "holy jesus, help me!".

[Scurrilous]

129. Lucy Killea was never excommunicated.

A bishop in San Diego tried to deny her communion for her pro-choice views but was overruled, and she continued to receive sacraments.

[regnaD kciN]

81. Then, I guess I should become a politician...

...whose actions undermine the traditional family, since I'm already forbidden to receive Communion at a Roman altar.

:eyes:

[adigal]

84. Time to remove the Catholic Church's tax exempt status

Once those suckers have to start paying taxes on the billions and billions of dollars of real estate they own, they will stop bossing politicians around.

Jerks.

[LostinVA]

85. Man, I taught CCD for years, and this is soooo wrong

And so against the Church's teaching... OMG. The hubris of these men, the sacrilege of their words and deeds -- saying they are better judges than God. Taking over the Godhead.

Thank Goddess I am now a heathen....

[mikita]

86. this headline played tricks with me...

I thought it read:

Communion only good for politicians...

which made me want to read more! LOL!

[hollowdweller]

87. Does this mean Abu Gonzales doesn't get communion? Does Torture count?

[dusty64]

89. But pro-DEATH

candidates OK. Organized religion is looking SO hypocritical and irrelevant these days.

[panzerfaust]

90. Whatever happened to “Ensoulment”

St. Tom Aquinas taught, following Aristotle’s idea, that ensoulment of an embryo did not occur until the fortieth day for a male (the eightieth for a female) embryo. The correlation of these times with those in the Talmud for the length of time that a woman is impure after childbirth (40 days for M, 80 days for F) is striking.

When did Christers abandon these teachings and move to the current (unclearly defined) “moment” of conception for fully ensouled personhood?

Really, in addition to making the obvious inferences, I am asking .

[The_Casual_Observer]

93. How about all those mafia funerals, where the bishop said the mass?

Personally, I am done with that church.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[meow2u3]

127. Now I know why so many vote against their economic interests!

Right-wing, abusive clergy are ordering them to vote for organized crime or else lose their immortal souls.

It's manipulation of souls in the worst way if you ask me--and I'm a pro-life liberal Dem!

[Scurrilous]

131. Yeah, how about them?

Can you name a specific mobster who's funeral was presided over by a Bishop.

Couldn't have been John Gotti. He wasn't permitted a funeral mass before burial. The Catholic Church has also denied funeral masses to other mobsters.

So, who is this mafia boss who had a funeral mass presided over by a bishop? I'm curious to see who he was.

[napi21]

103. Them it's time to disavow EVERY divorsed politician too!

They never mention that, and divorce is not only a personal action, but also publically recognize it as being legal as well!

It is doubly wrong in the eyes of the church when a divorced person remarries!

[Bloodblister Bob]

107. Nobody Expects the Spanish Inquisition n/t

[Fire Walk With Me]

111. "Hitler's Pope"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0670886939/002-9110740-5457630?v=glance

[Adrian Luca]

112. Ah, yes...family values...

I guess covering up child molestation is a family value that earns a Boston cardinal a post at the Vatican.

[AirAmFan]

114. Has the Mafia finally taken over the Vatican? Wn need separation of Church

and MOB.

[FooFootheSnoo]

120. I consider myself a liberal Catholic

and this kind of stuff really bothers me. It's very short sighted in my opinion. There was a time in our history when people were afraid to vote for Catholics because they believed a Catholic politician would be more loyal to Rome than the constitution. This kind of talk could bring those fears back again. Also, I think bishops and those higher up in the hierarchy are very out of touch with common people. Kind of like higher up politicians! Lower down on the totem pole, there is more diversity in thought and opinion. Our parish priest gave a surprising (given the statements made by the bishops that year) homily during the last election. He basically said that the kingdom of God could not be spread by force, but only by love. He said that people had tried to make Jesus an earthly king, but he did not use that kind of power to further his message. He pointed out that religion had been supressed forcibly in Poland for many years, but that now Poland is one of the most devout countries in the world. I was so upset by the statements made about Kerry by the bishops that his speech brought tears of relief to my eyes. It is so hard to see this happening in my church. It's hard enough to feel like an outsider in my own country, but would be unbearable in my own church.

[Oerdin]

125. The anwser is simple.

The Roman Catholic church is getting political again so it shouldn't get tax free status. Nonprofits are tax exempt only if they agree to stay out of politics.