Teacher Fired For His Beliefs

[NVMojo]

In many ways, he's right. Since the Bush administration began perverting the American Flag, I have had a hard time responding to it in public displays ...pride had turned to shame for what our country has become, an imperialist invader of other sovereign nations.

October 15, 2005

Stephen Kobasa has taught English in parochial schools for 25 years, always with a deep religious conviction and without an American flag in his classroom.

It was never an issue until this school year began.

Kobasa was fired from his job at Kolbe Cathedral High School in Bridgeport Thursday, in the face of a new diocesan policy that he says he's never seen in writing and hours after turning in his classroom flag to Principal Jo-Anne Jakab.

"I had come to the end of all the procedures of appeal available to me," Kobasa, 57, said Friday. He said his deep-seated religious belief, not un-American sentiments, was at the core of his opposition to having the flag in the classroom.

more...

http://www.courant.com/news/local/hc-flagfiring1015.artoct15,0,7571331.story?coll=hc-headlines-local

[TaleWgnDg]

1. Life is to laugh. How screwy can it get? This guy is . . .

.
Life is to laugh. How screwy can it get? This guy is . . . complaining because he cannot do what he wants to do in a private religious school?

Now that is funny! How stupid can he get? And he's teaching high school courses? hahahahahaha . . .

Pppsssttt, hey, guy. You are under a private contract. You are not teaching in a public school. Hellooooooooooooo? Since when do your private contractual rights adhere to your personal belief that a U.S. flag shouldn't fly in your private religious classroom? How stupid can he get? He doesn't have one legal leg to stand upon, period.

.

[unblock]

2. there is more to life than litigation.

he's fully aware that he doesn't have a legal leg to stand on. but that's not the point:



Kobasa bristles when asked if he contemplates filing a lawsuit.

"This was never about law," Kobasa said. "When communicated with me they would say, `Are you bringing your lawyer?' It was never about that. I never raised it as a free-speech issue. What grounds would I have? None. It was about the moral principle that this tradition supposedly represents."

[TaleWgnDg]

3. No sympathy, nope. The guy should KNOW what he's getting

into when signing a contract. How about reading it? Nope. No sympathy. He's a whiner, period. Again, this guy was teaching high school courses too! It's truly too funny for words. Pity the kids, s'all.

[depakid]

4. Doesn't sound like he's whining to me

Seems like he took a stand based on his personal principles, and was prepared for the consequences.

Gee, do ya think if maybe we had a few more people like that, the US wouldn't be the sorry excuse for a naton that it is today?

[meganmonkey]

14. It's similar to civil disobedience, albeit not breaking a law in his case

But he broke the rule knowing what he was doing, and as you said, accepting the consequence. And bringing an issue to the forefront.

For all we know he secretly hates his job and wanted out anyway, and this was a bold way to do it. Or maybe he is taking a huge risk in becoming unemployed...we don't know.

But I agree with you. He did this consciously to make a point and the point has been made.

[whatever4]

21. Then there's that

If more of the right-wing fundy nutcases (I mean it only for those that fit the description, and I know it's a small crowd) would be more honest and open, and rely less on lies and half-truths, we'd be in a better place today. I think you have a valid point.

Like, with the abortion issue. They VERY seldom say, and you can hardly get them to admit it, but at the base of that religious issue is a very real goal of stopping birth control. Birth control. Gone, if they'd have their way. Yeah, and we want THAT?? But, do they ever say that to all, those sweet souls that just want to stop "murdering babies"?? No. No way. But, it IS part of the agenda, the religious agenda. Dishonestly.

I have to agree, if more of them came right out and said what they stood for and what they believed, we'd have a much easier time dealing with the religious agenda they're trying to push in our nation.

[Piscis Austrinus]

42. I couldn't agree more...(an angry indictment of Christian extremists)

And I would add that it really stretches credibility when people who purport to be "extreme" Christians resort to subterfuges, secrecy, distortion, or out-and-out dishonesty. I personally wouldn't look forward to a reckoning before God of lies I had told in His name, even for what I believed was a good purpose.

I have to conclude from this thought that many - not all, but certainly a plurality - of the Christians of this stripe do not take their faith seriously. If they did, they would believe that God is whom He says He is, and that the teachings of Christ are not a pick-and-choose menu.

Both the Old Testament and the New Testament are clear on the way people in general - believers or not - should behave. I have little doubt that, were every Christian in this country to begin immediately to live as they are directed, to their absolute limit of ability, there really would be a huge change is this country. Imagine a nation where everyone around you loves you as much as you love yourself. Hard to imagine any need for anger or intolerance. Harder still to imagine deceit or crime, let alone wars, righteous or otherwise. That was and is, I believe, Jesus' design and desire for mankind. In this context, it is not difficult to imagine the need for the events of Revelation; such a world as Christ desired cannot exist while the ravening wolves of false doctrine run amok, bearing their persecution and judgment and false righteousness everywhere they go - into all the world - and making in every place disciples twice as fit for hell as they are themselves.

Hence, we have a small but highly vocal minority pressing an agenda filled to the letter with Christian principle and utterly devoid of its heart and spirit, vicious, intimidating, unscrupulous, deceitful, demanding, allied with those who tickle their ears with lies while neglecting, despoiling, shearing, and - at last - slaughtering and devouring the very flock they are charged with shepherding.

I know a few of you can hardly believe that a Christian would be willing to say this, but I have reached the inescapable conclusion that if those who seek to initiate Armageddon succeed in doing so, many of them will find that they are on the lake-of-fire side of the equation when it all plays out. The decision of when it begins rests solely with God the Father. Jesus himself said that He did not know when it would occur. Imagine, then, the audacity of an individual who prays for the commencement of those events, or who acts and prays in the belief that what they do will actually drive the end times. I'm here to tell you that there is an entire movement in Christianity - including Dominionists and some Christian Reconstructionists - that is doing exactly this. I also will tell you in no uncertain terms that ANY Christian who prays for the end of time is false. Christians are charged with the nurture, care, and conversion of their fellow human beings. That charge has never been changed. Therefore, any believer who asks for the end is, in effect, spitting God's bit, telling Him that he no longer wishes to do as God commands, but wants God to clean things up instead. No true Christian, knowing his own imperfections and desiring mercy, would do such a thing, because the commencement of Armageddon coincides with the end of God's grace to the world: therefore, anyone who prays for the end is - in effect - praying for the damnation and eternal suffering of everyone who does not believe. I do not believe this is an act worthy of someone who desires mercy for himself.

Much of the remainder of Christendom in this country has either been neutralized in the face of the onslaught of accusatory theology, or marginalized by the secular (corporate) allies of the accusers. Most know in their hearts that the extremists are wrong, but are silenced by their own acknowledgement of their imperfections. They know that they have logs in their eyes.

I really believe that it will be the unbelievers - those who, either willingly or otherwise, stand outside the boundaries of the Christian faith - who at last are heard when they cry out against the injustice of the falsely righteous. All of us, whether Christian or not, have at some point heard the complaints of those who do not believe regarding the behavior of many of those who do. The wise ones in the faith have listened and heeded. The extremists, however, do not listen, believing that no wisdom can come from an unbeliever. These are so drunk on the liquor of their faith that they have become blind to basic truth: all of us, from the fall of Adam, whether believer or otherwise, have a knowledge of good and evil.

Look carefully at the actions of many of the most powerful conservative Christians in this country. See how they pursue riches, power and political influence. Now look carefully at those who support them with their treasure. What Christian should send money to Pat Robertson? I believe that not one should. There is hardly a township in this entire nation that does not have people in need. Poverty, neglect, hunger, and lack of education abound, and if you believe what the economic indicators tell us, they are worsening. Christians have work to do in their own backyards, and they always have. Why then would anyone ignore these, in order to support the dubious agenda of a televangelist? Perhaps they believe that by supporting large-scale ministry, these problems will be battled on a larger scale. They couldn't be more wrong. Christian evangelists made more money in the last fifteen years than at any time in the history of this country. The results have been steadily worsening conditions over the past five years, for the very people whom Christians are charged with nurturing, and a political structure - supported by most of these same people - that seems dedicated to continuing this course of events, and accelerating it if possible.

Am I angry? Yes, indeed.

I hope that anyone who has taken the time to read this will understand that I have no axe to grind with individual faith. I don't buy into evangelism by verbal means. If you're serious about spreading the gospel, live it; if not, then it is YOUR life, not mine to direct you in living. I will always side against those who claim to be Christians yet are against the side of justice.

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just."

Peace all, sorry for the extended rant...
PsA

[susanna]

43. Welcome to DU, PsA.

You and I think quite alike...I concur with your rant. I only wish I could have come up with one half so eloquent. Well said.

[Smarmie Doofus]

5. Then why "pity the kids"? n/t

[iamjoy]

20. Pity The Kids Because

(at least, this is the way I see it, I wasn't the original poster of this)

They have lost a good teacher (we assume he was good) teacher over something like this. Students rarely get to choose their school, usually their parents do with little (if any) input from the kids. So none of this was their choice, but they have to deal with the consequences.

This teaches that blind obedience is more important than principles. On this, I don't necessarily pity them, it is hard lesson, but a fact of life and one they must learn, so it is sad, but in my opinion not worthy of pity.

[Smarmie Doofus]

30. Indeed . I was merely pointing out one glaring inconsistency....

( of so many)in the thinking -- not of the original poster-- but of the guy who said, in effect... "yippee, he deserves to be fired".

He said he pitied the kids. Wasn't clear why. 'Cause they had a bad teacher? 'Cause they lost a good teacher?

Clearly, to reasonable folks, the tragedy here is the damage done to the kids by the RW , flag-worshiping, Diocesan policymakers. That the kids lost a good teacher is pretty obvious from the details of the article.

And at this point, pretty much all of the policymakers in the American RC church are RW.

[muriel_volestrangler]

7. Surely it is the school who are the whiners?

He successfully taught English for 25 years, and now they're saying that requires a flag permanently on display? Why? Obviously, the school assumes the pupils have such a small sense of self-worth that they need a crutch of a symbol to be constantly to hand, in case they get a panic attack in the middle of an English lesson about whether their country is honourable or not. The pupils seem to think they can cope without it - they supported the teacher. It's only the school administrators who can't survive for a full period without the sign of Big Brother carefully watching over them.

[China_cat]

10. It's all about money.

Private RELIGIOUS school that'll reap the rewards of 'faith-based' initiative...but ONLY by showing how much they back the current regime in every way.

Come south. Go into just about any Baptist church here and ask. They'll tell you that the 'christian' flag is more important than the American flag any day and that if they had to make a choice they'd choose no flag at all. Or it used to be that way...before they had a chance at not only not having to pay for what they use (police, fire, garbage, etc) but getting paid for increasing their flocks.

[rpannier]

13. I disagree with you

First, it's a Diocesan Policy. This means it is handed down from the Arch-bishop or the Bishop. 2nd, the rule is probably listed in his contract, the faculty handbook or the Diocesan rules for classrooms. If he hasn't read those rules it's hardly the diocese or the schools fault. It is the responisbility of the teacher or other faculty member to be apprised of the rules governing their class, their behavior, etc every single year.
In addition, as has been said, Private School their rules. And to be fair, almost every Public School District requires the flying of the American flag in the classroom.
How do I know these things?
1) I taught in the Diocese of Gary for three years.
2) My mother taught public school in California and an American flag had to be flying in every classroom.

[knitter4democracy]

25. We had unwritten standards when I taught in Catholic schools.

We had a teaching uniform, but it wasn't in writing. We had to have the American flag in our room, but it wasn't in writing anywhere. There were many things the principal made up and then enforced whenever the whim struck in the second school I taught in. I was in the Diocese of Cleveland, and there were always these little unwritten rules we had to follow.

Something tells me there is more to this than we're getting. It is unusual for a teacher to be in a Catholic high school for 25 years, so the principal might be using this as something to get rid of him. In the second school I taught in, the principal picked on a couple of us she felt were questioning her authority (when we weren't) and harrassed us silly over anything and everything she could dream up. I left at the end of that year, and the other one is gone now as well.

[rpannier]

60. Agreed in part

I agree with you about the problems with pricipals and how the Diocese and Schools will do almost anything to save money. I've seen and heard of Catholic Schools that tried to get rid of teachers for using the Health Insurance too much. Catholic Schools are a perfect example of why we need Unions.
One oddity that struck me came from Bill O'Reilly. He taught in a Catholic Grade School and said (on TV) that Catholic Schools are the reason why HE supports unions. The principal at his school, according to O' Reilly, would pick one or two teachers every year to harass and these teachers had no recourse but to complain to the Diocese. The Diocese ignored them.

Note: Normally I refer to bill o' reilly as shill o'lielly. But, since I am using him to support my point I'm calling him Bill.

[knitter4democracy]

62. Unions make a real difference.

Once I got the union involved at the second school, things got a little better. I didn't have a union at the first one, so I had no one to help me. It was awful.

There were two of us under attack in the same department that year, and our dept. head did nothing to help us. Heck, the other senior members of the dept. didn't do much, either. The other one, a good friend of mine, wasn't let go at the end of the year (I was due to a fall in enrollment--last hired first fired) but ended up dying of lung cancer the next fall. It really grated on me to hear the principal go on and on about how great a teacher she was when I knew what she'd done to my friend.

[shrike]

64. Agree. There's 'always' more to the story

As an old journalist, I can tell you: every time someone is fired, the public reason is often not the true reason. Or, the fir-ee identifies a reason which MAY be a bit of a smokescreen. Sadly, I've seen women use the discrimination card -- when they were actually poor employees -- because it was also a get-out-of-jail free card: such a hot button that they might get a settlement or even their jobs back. Not that discrimination isn't rampant in some sectors of our society. However, SOMETIMES those who shout discrimination are simply using it as a bargaining chip.

I'm not going to comment on whether this gentleman was right or wrong re the flag, but he may be having a personality conflict with the administration. It may be a new administration, one that wants to go in a new direction. He's been there 25 years; maybe they want to bring in someone younger, the friend of a friend, etc., and want an excuse. This happened in a police department near me, not long ago.

Not saying what they're doing to him is right. But, these situations are usually more complicated than first appears.

[muriel_volestrangler]

34. In the article, the teacher claims it's a new policy

"in the face of a new diocesan policy that he says he's never seen in writing"; "Kobasa is not sure who made the flag an issue. He said he had heard that a colleague complained about the lack of a flag in his classroom. The school year began with an announcement that the Pledge of Allegiance would be said by all classes at the beginning of the day."; "Before coming to Kolbe Cathedral in 1999, Kobasa had taught for years at St. Thomas Aquinas High School in New Britain - in a flag-free classroom. "It was never an issue.""

Against that, the diocese says "The Diocese of Bridgeport has long believed that the American flag is an important fixture in its Catholic school classrooms."

So it may not be made explicit anywhere - just, as knitter4democracy says, an unwritten standard. However, even if it is an explicit decision by an archbishop, that doesn't stop it being whiney. Why is an American flag a necessary decoration for teaching English? Sure, you can say that history or politics must include a discussion of the symbolism of the flag; any teacher should be free to put up an American flag, or any they choose, if it doesn't disrupt their classroom. But it smacks of a narrow nationalism to insist on the flag.

Too late now, but if I were the teacher, I'd get a poster of 'flags of the world', put that up, and point out that the American flag is displayed, along with 200 others, about an inch high.

[Frances]

41. I think you mean that the flag had to be displayed

I can't see a flag flying inside a classroom.

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. Every classroom I have ever taught in has a flag flying in it.

They sell flags just for this purpose.

[Frances]

56. I think we aren't in agreement on the word "flying"

To me, a flag that is flying is one that is blowing in the wind or breeze. I don't think of a flag that is on the wall or on a stand inside a classroom as flying.

[rpannier]

59. LOL

Thank you for the correction. I always appreciate it.

[NVMojo]

57. please re-read. Flying today's flag in a classroom implies

"patriotism" of the Bush variety which means we invade sovereign countries to steal their oil for our own greed and consumption.

[rpannier]

11. I agree with you 100%

He wants to make a stand. That's fine. But he has to accept the consequences of his actions.

[pretzel4gore]

12. there's good and evil. period

sorting them out takes some people a lifetime; and we live in a society that justifies so much by saying 'well, it's cool' or 'god wants this ...' or something. the usa flag, under bush, reagan, nixon, ford (but not under carter, kennedy and clinton, fortunately) has become the 'Wastika' and i wouldn't display it in any classroom....public or private

[rodeodance]

17. Precisely BECAUSE it is private--he can not do what he did.

Life is to laugh. How screwy can it get? This guy is . . . complaining because he cannot do what he wants to do in a private religious school?

[knitter4democracy]

28. I think it's more that he thought he was still within his rights.

He made the decision based on his faith, and Catholic school teachers do that every day. I used to be one, and I know that there were many times I was encouraged to act on my faith. I was Eastern Orthodox, not Roman Catholic, but that wasn't a problem.

I just don't think we know all that was going on. A teacher of 25 years is an oddity in the Catholic schools, so something makes me think they wanted to get rid of him or he wanted to leave.

[nvliberal]

45. There's nothing this guy can do about it.

It's a private school, and private schools can do whatever they want to impose their curriculum and beliefs on their teachers.

The teachers can always leave if they don't like it.

Why this guy chose to waste 25 years of his life teaching in a Catholic school instead of working in the public schools where he at least would have some rights is a mystery.

[knitter4democracy]

48. Of course. It's still odd, though.

I taught in the Catholic schools for three years, and I don't look at them as wasted time. I worked with many high-caliber teachers, some of whom were flat-out amazing.

In the Catholic schools, the pay is pitiful. I did a happy dance when I finally broke $20K a year in gross salary (when I switched to a unionized school), and the top-end pay was around fifty thousand (with 15 years and a Ph.D).

That said, however, they are good places to teach. I could pray with students who asked me to, I could give side-hugs to kids who needed them and even pat them on the shoulder when they had done something just right, and I could count on a full community to help a student in need. The girls school I taught in is the best school I have ever seen, even given its faults, and graduates an amazing group of young women fully prepared to be leaders. Don't even get me started on how much easier it is to teach critical thinking skills in the Catholic schools.

My issue is not that he was fired but that he was fired in an odd way. In my experience, teachers don't get summarily fired without a long backstory. The principal probably had been gunning for him all last year only to have him hand her the perfect excuse this year.

English teachers (I was one) often are objects of constant review and even scorn, as we are the ones who give out a lot of homework (making many students hate us), tough grades that really are subjective when you boil it all down (making many parents hate us), and who have many touchy subjects to cover in class (making admins hate us). The turnover in the English dept is usually pretty bad in a Catholic school with only one or two mainstays and many who only last a year or two. For him to have lasted as long as he did says he was a good teacher (remember--probably not unionized and no tenure), and for him to get fired like that says something else was going on that we don't know about.

[JerseygirlCT]

50. He's not complaining from a legal point

He's complaining because he thinks it's a repudiation of the very religious values he was hired to uphold.

There's no lawsuit, there will be no lawsuit.

And, being the recipient of a Catholic school education myself (with all its ups and downs), I think he's right.

[NVMojo]

58. It's sort of a WWJD thing, folks. Jesus woul;dn't want to be a USA

citizens under the Bush regime, the killer of innocent people for gain.

[LeighAnn]

55. Shouldn't be in any religious classroom

The fundies will be the first to want to swear allegiance to a piece of cloth, but other people who actually read the Bible recognize this as idolatry.

[Smarmie Doofus]

6. The American Church marches ever-onward into....

obsolescence, irrelevance and... with any luck... oblivion.

[rpannier]

15. Why?

Because they require a flag to be flown in the classroom and this guy thinks he should be able to flout Diocesan policy? I don't think so.

[timtom]

22. He isn't trying to flout anything.

(Remember -- this is only my opinion)

My reading of this is that he's wrestled with an issue of conviction. For example, is the forced display of any flag a form of idolatry?

Whatever issue he dealt with, he decided to take a stand on principle and principle, alone.

This is kinda like Phil Ochs' song, "I Ain't Marching Anymore."

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Smarmie Doofus]

31. Sure., sure . Keep going. Add flag worshiping to to the list....

of ideological and philosophical hurdles you want good RCs to jump thru.

And continue to be baffled by the results.

[DemBones DemBones]

8. Good for him for standing up for his beliefs.

I suspect that this is really an attempt to punish Mr. Kobasa for his anti-war activism.

"The crucifix cancels all flags," said Kobasa, a longtime peace activist. "Christ speaks of compassion without boundaries. ...Flags are about separation, assertions of superiority and aggression. The whole notion that loyalty to country is connected to one's religious faith is totally bizarre and unjustified."

He's right and the Diocese of Bridgeport is wrong.

[nvliberal]

46. He may be right philosophically, but legally he doesn't have a case.

n/t

[JerseygirlCT]

51. He's not interested in having a case, legally

He's not pursuing anything at all.

He's upset that the values he holds, and thought he was to be upholding in the school, are no longer those of the school -- or by extension the diocese or the church. And he's right.

Read the article -- he's got a couple of wonderful quotes in there.

[kath]

49. Agree- the school probably has a problem with his peace activism.

So much for the social teachings of Catholicism (and of Christ).

Guess the Diocese thinks that JC really DID say "blessed are the cheesemakers" rather than "blessed are the peacemakers".

[knitter4democracy]

52. It depends on where the pressure is coming from.

If the school is getting pressure from Opus Dei (as one of the ones I taught in did on a regular basis) and they're scared, that might explain why they fired him.

[madrchsod]

9. why is there a need for an american flag in

a religious school? religious people do not have to worship or even respect the flag of any nation. their loyality belongs to the "church" and to the god they worship. maybe he can teach in a Coptic school where there is no loyality to any state but only to god.

[rpannier]

16. Disagree

I taught three years in a Catholic School. The Diocese has a tremendous loyalty to the government. The Bishop (in Gary) has said many times, "We are Americans and Catholics."
Besides that arguement is irrelevant to the fact that it's a Diocesan Policy. Most Diocese require an American flag to be in every classroom. Interestingly, they don't require a Vatican flag.

[rodeodance]

18. The Cross is the "Vatican flag"

[knitter4democracy]

26. No, it isn't.

The Vatican flag is white and gold with the Pope's Coat of Arms.

[rpannier]

61. Very funny

You get the cookie for today. Thanks.

[knitter4democracy]

27. We started every day with the Pledge and prayer.

That's why we had to have a flag in our rooms. It wasn't a written rule, though, so I'm not sure how it would've been enforced if someone had questioned it.

The timing is what makes me suspicious. He's been there for 25 years, and they're only questioning it now? There's more to this than we're getting.

[Orsino]

40. The Commandment against idolatry...

...is not followed particularly well, in my opinion, by the Vatican. If they want to elevate the American flag to similar holy status, well, that's not too surprising.

[ElectroPrincess]

19. Yes, this guy is lacking "common sense"

As you can see by my avatar, I love K9s, specifically my beautiful Miss Taro more than words can say. She's 12 y.o. and will soon leave this world. I know in my heart that I will join her in Heaven and we will cross over the "Rainbow Bridge" together to be with our loved ones and friends for eternity.

BUT ... and this is an *important* exception = TRADITIONAL CATHOLICISM instructs children in catechism that "animals do not have souls" - "only HUMANS have souls" that can join God in heaven. My little girl stood up at such a comment by a teacher and said, "I don't care what you say, my dog has a soul!" (She's a lot like her mom. :blush:)

However, because I love the Catholic Faith and because she attends what can be considered a "liberal Catholic School" run by nuns who have taken vows of both chastity and poverty, I've instructed my daughter to *forgive them* and NOT argue the point in the future.

I love the Priests and the Sisters I have had the opportunity to interact with in this Parish. Therefore, the "when in Rome" advice is SPOT ON!

Those who teach in Private Schools, especially ones based on a specific religion, should know that one is obliged to be acomodating even if they don't agree with all the RULES. After all, it's their school. :-)

This guy? IMO, he needs a vacation and an attitude adjustment. ;)

[leesa]

23. Nationalism is so important. Sieg Heil!

[iamjoy]

24. Religious Beliefs...How Interesting

I know Mr. Kobasa was Catholic, but Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in saluting the flag or reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. In their interpretation, this is equivelant to making a graven image, a violation of God's word and of worshiping a God other than Jehovah.

He might have had better luck in a public school. Then he could have claimed it was his belief, even if it was in contrast to the policy of his official religion. But, religious organizations can discriminate (based on religion) in hiring, it is part of the reason Faith Based initiatives and vouchers are so controversial.

[Midlodemocrat]

29. I taught in that diocese for ten years.

High School at Stamford Catholic, which is now Trinity Catholic. I don't recall such a rabid adoration of the flag. We prayed in the morning, and said the pledge, but I don't think all of us had a flag in our rooms. Can't really remember, though.

[donco6]

32. Colorado law requires a flag in every classroom.

Not even a choice here.

[Cerridwen]

33. For how long have posters at DU been saying they wish

one of "them" would start to stand up to what is being done to "their" religion in "their" name.

Here is a man who is one of "them" and he took a stand against nationalizing "his" religion. He takes "his" religion seriously enough that he apparently doesn't believe it should be "corrupted" by enforced nationalism.

Why didn't the diocese point out to him the section of policy about displaying the flag? Why fire him without some sort of warning? Why not point out the policy and then allow him to decide whether or not to display the flag?

Would DU posters have "attacked" this man if he were one of "ours"?

[kineneb]

35. in a way, he is one of "ours"

in that he has not consumed the kool-aid of ubernationalism. I respect folks that follow their convictions quietly. If he were a Quaker or member of any number of other sects, he could have done the same thing. The school is in the wrong here.

[Cerridwen]

36. I agree

That's why I was so surprised at some of the posts.

Here's to more of "us" standing firm in our convictions.

:toast:

[Ms. Toad]

44. Thank you.

I am saddened by the attacks on/criticisms of a man who has such depth of understanding of traditional Christian values that it is more important to him that he be faithful to practicing love without boundaries than that he retain a job he has held for decades.

Reminds me of my father, who became a conscientious objector because he truly believed all they taught him in his little Baptist church in rural america, and could not fathom how God would approve of his taking up arms against fellow children of God.

The world would be a lot better place if there were more individuals of faith whose faith is accompanied by that depth of understanding and commitment to living that faith daily.

If we are truly committed to building a world of equality and justice we should embrace and support such individuals - not attack them for being petty, selfish, stupid, or even for having faith in the first place.

[gratuitous]

37. If Mr. Kobasa wants his religion flag-free

The Church of the Brethren has long recognized the disjunction between following the cross or following the flag. I suspect there are a few Brethren congregations that have national flags in the sanctuary, but even as recently as 2002 there was a BIG dust-up at Annual Conference over the presence of a flag in the auditorium.

As surprising as it might be to some religious folk, God isn't an American institution.

[Toots]

38. What would cause this deep-seated religious belief from Christianity?

I remember hearing about Jesus saying give unto Rome what is Rome's and unto God what is God's and also something about "false idols" but I don't know of anything else that he could be referring to that would cause a religious problem of placing the flag of one's country in the classroom. Did he clarify to anyone what he judged his beliefs on? :shrug: I don't get it...Never heard this one before..

[okasha]

47. Actually, what Jesus said applies directly

to this situation. When a listener (possibly a provocatuer) in the crowd around him asked him whether Jews should pay Roman taxes, Jesus said, "Show me a denarius."

Someone in the crowd held one up. The Roman denarius showed an image of the Emperor, surrounded by the words "Caesar Divi"--"divine Caesar." Now, the assertion that Caesar was a god would have been anathema to any devout Jew. Jesus' reply was "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." In other words, give the tyrant his money if he demands it, but keep your love and loyalty and worship for God. Seems to me that's exactly what this teacher is doing, only he's refusing to worship "Vexilla Diva."

[BiggJawn]

39. Stars and Stripes have the same meaning as the Swastika to me.

I can't look at an American flag anymore without seeing that drunken coked-up Conneticut cowboy tightly wrapped up in it.

They stole it from us, and I won't be mistaken for a Bush-bot Sheeple by showing one myself.

After we turn these bastards out.

[TahitiNut]

53. Too bad he wasn't a pedophile - he'd still have his job.

:eyes:

[cassiepriam]

63. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. The ReBorg speaks.