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ECH1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 06:28 PM
Original message
Muslim head says gays 'harmful'
Head of the Muslim Council of Britain Sir Iqbal Sacranie said introducing the partnerships did "not augur well" for building the foundations of society.

Sir Iqbal said of civil partnerships: "This is harmful.

"It does not augur well in building the very foundations of society - stability, family relationships. And it is something we would certainly not, in any form, encourage the community to be involved in."

"Each of our faiths tells us that it is harmful and I think, if you look into the scientific evidence that has been available in terms of the forms of various other illnesses and diseases that are there, surely it points out that where homosexuality is practised there is a greater concern in that area."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4579146.stm
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. Then he should set up gay men up with chicks and vice-versa.
Edited on Tue Jan-03-06 06:28 PM by HypnoToad
It's the only pro-life solution that's viable.
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The Onyx Key Donating Member (121 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. "Nevertheless, he told BBC...
...Radio 4's PM programme, everyone should be tolerant."

:wtf:
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. I hate the idea of tolerence
Are we to tell our fellow citizens that they are "tolerated" - still considered not quite right but allowed to live in our society (barely)? OR we could accept that some people are different than us.
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The Onyx Key Donating Member (121 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Yup. Acceptance is a better word. n/t
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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yeah, right. Go choke on your Sharia laws, pal.
Edited on Tue Jan-03-06 06:41 PM by Rockholm
I seem to have read last week about the dude in Pakistan who killed his own daughter because (horrors) she married for love. Then he slaughtered his three other daughters lest they make the same mistake.

I could go on a anti-Muslim rant, but geez, they are just as fucked up and warped as every other fundie religion.

On edit: This Gay thinks Muslims are harmful. There, I feel better.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Read the article
Edited on Tue Jan-03-06 06:50 PM by depakid
Crikey, the guy's a cleric- he's not going to endorse homosexuality, but what he's much more more reasonable than most Christian ministers in America:

He said everyone in society should be tolerant, and if they are not happy then engage in the democratic processes to give their views.

"We may not be happy with the views being expressed by others. But the difficulty comes in that at the end of the day we are human beings."

He said both the opponents and supporters of civil partnerships had the right to speak out.
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tatertop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. thank you for actually reading (before commenting on) the article
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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. I did read the article and I stand by what I said.
Guess you missed the part about disease. That makes whatever he wants to say about "tolerance" moot in my book.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-04-06 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. I'm just saying
comparatively speaking, that was pretty mild stuff. Do I condone it. No. But on the other hand- it's a whole lot better than we get here- and a far cry from sharia.
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Johnyawl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-04-06 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
25. No, he's not...
Edited on Wed Jan-04-06 12:57 AM by Johnyawl
"....he's much more more reasonable than most Christian ministers in America..."

He may be more reasonable than the minority fundamentalists nutbags, but he's not more reasonable than most. Try to remember that there is a sizable Christian population in this country that accepts gays, and ministers to them. That's the one thing I see in Christianity and (Judaism) that I see nowhere in the Islamic world. The Reformation that began with Martin Luther continues to this day, evolving, and reinterpreting the faith, abandoning dogma, and searching for the true spirituality of the faith. The reform Jews are much the same. Where are the reform Muslims?
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-04-06 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. point taken
I thought maybe this was a trend in the right direction- but I was doing cross-cultural comparisons- and anthropologists (and economists- with utility) warn against that.

My mistake- thanks for making me think.

I stand corrected.
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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-04-06 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. There are some
You're right that on the whole Islam is MUCH more intolerant of homosexuality than either Christianity or Judaism. Which is somewhat ironic, because some scholars feel that the Qu'ran, while condemning of homosexuality, is less damning than the Bible or the Torah:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_of_homosexuality

While homosexuality as an attraction is against the Sharia (which governs the physical actions, and also the inner thoughts and feelings), it is only the physical action of same-sex intercourse that is punishable under the Sharia.

Thus, homosexual desire and love are accommodated, but same-sex intercourse is prohibited, as Islam teaches that such intercourse is a violation of the natural boundaries set by Allah.

Historically the punishment has been less severe compared to its Abrahamic counterparts: Judaism and Christianity. The Qur'an states that if a person commits the sin they can repent and save their life, though there are hadiths that later prescribe the death penalty. Early Islamic cultures, especially ones where homosexuality was entrenched into their Pagan culture were renowned for their cultivation of a homosexual aesthetic. They reconciled their new religion using a hadith ascribed to Muhammad declaring male lovers who die chaste to be martyrs, “He who loves and remains chaste and conceals his secret and dies, dies a martyr”.

The result is a religion that allows love between those of the same gender as long as they do not have sexual intercourse. Ibn Hazm, Ibn Daud, Al-Mu'tamid, Abu Nuwas, and many others wrote extensively and openly of love between men. However, in order for the transgression to be proven, at least four men or eight women must bear witness against the accused, thus making it very difficult to persecute those who did not remain celibate in the privacy of their homes.


That said, within even mainstream Islam, homosexuality is near-universally condemned.

Is it something inherent in the religion? I don't buy that, given that Jewish and Christian texts are equally condemning of homosexuality, if not more. The fact is nearly every religion in the world has held up an ideal of male-female marriage and coupling and homosexuality has yet to find acceptance within the wide mainstream of any religion. There are, however, liberal movements in Christianity, Judaism, and within Buddhism and, to a lesser extent, Hinduism that have been more accepting of homosexuality. So why the difference? Acceptance of homosexuality is a pretty recent phenomenon of the past thirty years or so and only in developed, Western states. There is some growing acceptance in Japan and Korea, but in both nations, there still remains the Confucian marital ideal and a tradition of deferring to authority that makes reform slower.

My guess is that movements to recognize homosexuality as something acceptable within Islam will occur in North America and somewhat in Europe. Between the two, North America is more likely, given that American and Canadian Muslims and their children are pretty well integrated into society. In Europe, that isn't the case, so many second and third-generation Muslim Europeans remain isolated from the rest of society and are often more reactionary.

Beyond that, nearly all GLBT-rights movements have occurred in developed and democratic countries. I doubt you'll see a change in attitudes towards homosexuality in Islamic countries for the better part of this century. Remember, acceptance of homosexuality in the West is VERY recent, historically speaking. It'll likely happen even in Islamic countries faster than the fundies would like, but it won't be until you have a peaceful, democratic Muslim world that is economically prosperous and integrated with the rest of the world. Those were the preconditions for Western acceptance of homosexuality. That may take awhile in Arab and Muslim countries. Nevertheless, it should be pushed, because it's not going to go anywhere quick if the GLBT community and their allies just wait it out.

As for your statement about evolution in Christianity and none in Islam - your question of "Where are the reform Muslims?" There's actually a well-developed philosophy in Islam known as itjihad which embraces the reinterpretation of scripture, encourages the pursuit of knowledge and "truth":

http://www.ijtihad.org/

I don't want to oversell this, because currently there is very little of this. However, keep in mind that worldwide Islamic fundamentalism and political Islam is actually a very recent phenomenon from the late 1970s. Islam hasn't for centuries had a central authority (although there did remain a Caliph in the form of the Ottomon Sultan), which means that talk of an "Islamic Reformation" is a little inapplicable. Even in the Arab world, up until the 1970s, the dominant political movements were secular Arab nationalism, Communism, and Socialism. Islam played little political role in most Arab or Muslim countries. Wearing the veil became very uncommon in many countries like Egypt, Syria, and Iraq. Even Saudi Arabia appeared to be loosening up until the mid-70s. In the last 30 years, with the collapse of Socialism and Communism and with the failure of Arab nationalism, the dominant political ideology in the Middle East became Islamism and there has been a resurgence in religiosity as well as a reversion to more hardline and conservative religious views in many countries. With globalization, there is an increasing sense of "brotherhood" among Muslims even in places like Malaysia and Indonesia which, combined with funding by Saudi Arabia of Wahhabi religious schools, has led to greater religious orthodoxy all over the Muslim world and a surge in popularity for political Islamism.

But to answer your question, here's a link to a progressive Muslim group that accepts homosexuality: The Progressive Muslim Union of North America. Here's some background information about the group:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Muslim_Union

Here's the group's website:

http://www.pmuna.org/

PMU Statement of Principles

The Progressive Muslim Union of North America (PMU) is a grassroots organization that aims to provide a forum, voice, and organizing mechanism to North American Muslims who wish to pursue a progressive intellectual, social and political agenda.

Our work is guided by the following principles:

1) We affirm that a Muslim is anyone who identifies herself or himself as "Muslim," including those whose identification is based on social commitments and cultural heritage.

2) We affirm the importance of celebrating the arts, culture, and the pursuit of joy in our daily lives. We believe the restrictions imposed by some on instrumental music and the depiction of human forms in paintings and sculpture contravene the rich Muslim cultural heritage from around the globe.

3) We affirm the validity of Islamic ritual and practice as an expression of love for God, while acknowledging that specific forms of ritual and practice are individual choices and should never be imposed through coercive means.

4) We affirm the equal status and equal worth of all human beings, regardless of religion, gender, race, ethnicity, or sexual orientation. We oppose any restrictions on women's full participation in society and believe that separation and segregation of men and women is contrary to the equity among genders enshrined in the Quran. We endorse the human rights and liberties of lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans-sexual individuals. We believe that Muslim women and men, gay and straight, of all nationalities, ethnicities, and races should work together, shoulder-to-shoulder, in their effort to rejuvenate our community.

5) We affirm that justice and compassion should be the guiding principles for all aspects of human conduct. Islam holds that these qualities are characteristics of God as revealed in the holy Quran, divine qualities that are the ethical virtues to which all human beings should aspire to emulate.

6) We affirm our commitment to social and economic justice and our opposition to the culture of militarism and violence. We will support efforts for universal health care, public education, the protection of our environment, and the eradication of poverty around the world.

7) We reject the authoritarian, racist, sexist and homophobic interpretations of our faith as antithetical to the principles of justice and compassion.

8) We affirm the diversity of inspirations that motivate people to embrace a commitment to justice and compassion, including a profound faith rooted in religious traditions, ethical imperatives developed throughout the centuries, and secular and humanist values shared by many Muslims today.

9) We call for critical inquiry and dynamic engagement with Islamic scripture, early Muslim sources, the Islamic intellectual heritage, and traditional and current Muslim discourses.

10) We endorse the separation of religion and state in all matters of public policy, not only in North America, but also across the Muslim world. We believe that secular government is the only way to achieve the Islamic ideal of freedom from compulsion in matters of faith and that the separation of religion and state is a necessary pre-requisite to building democratic societies, where religious, ethnic, and racial minorities are accepted as equal citizens enjoying full dignity and human rights enunciated in the 1948 UN Declaration of Universal Human Rights.

11) We recognize the growing danger of religious extremism and view the politicization of religion and the intrusion of religion into politics as twin threats to civil society and humane civilization. We vow to resist the intrusion of religion into politics and the exploitation of religion for political ends.

12) Recognizing our participation in the broader human family, we seek to engage with and contribute to other philosophical and spiritual traditions and progressive movements.


Here's a link to the progressive Muslim online magazine WakeUp!:

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/

Obviously, a general look at Islam would show it to be quite regressive as practiced today with no acknowledgement of GLBT rights. But there are people out there who are trying to change that, and given the trend of history, change will probably come. It may not be totally clean, but neither has Western acceptance of GLBT rights.
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Poppyseedman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. With the WASP birth rate in deep decline in the UK
and the Muslim UK birth rate and immigration skyrocketing, telling them to go choke on their Sharia laws might just get your tongue cut out or worse in the next 20 years.





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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Not really
In the most comprehensive prediction on 'race' I've seen, by about 2100 under half the UK population will be pure 'white', but the next largest group will have a 'mixed' ancestry, ie from more than one of 'white', 'south Asian', 'black' etc. Those sticking to fundamentalist Islam tend to stick to marriages within their own ancestral communities as well - so I think the bulk of Muslims will be part of that 'south Asian' grouping (which includes many Hindus, of course). Some of the 'black' category will be Muslim too, and a little of 'white' (I think Arabic ethnicities come under that category) and 'mixed'.
       2001  2050  2100 (populations in millions)
White 54.2 48.4 30.0
Black 1.2 5.9 9.0
Asian 2.8 8.7 12.4
Mixed 0.7 5.6 21.7

51 page PDF source

The growth of the 'mixed' category in the UK may be the most notable feature of the 2001 census - there were more children under 16 listed as 'mixed' than any single ethnic category such as Indian or Pakistani.
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hogwyld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Took the words outta my mouth
Oh, and don't forget about France, German, and Holland with even larger
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demosincebirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. We don't discuss the slaughter of those three innocent girls, by their
father, on this board. No sir.
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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. Why not?
Edited on Tue Jan-03-06 10:39 PM by Rockholm
Or were you being sarcastic?

On edit: Sometimes this board gets to me. It is hard to know when someone is being sarcastic and when someone is being serious.
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demosincebirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-04-06 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #20
31. Sarcasm
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iconoclastNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-04-06 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. There's a tag for that. N/T
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-04-06 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #8
30. Yes,we did
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
5. Sounds Like a Right Winger
Edited on Tue Jan-03-06 06:51 PM by stepnw1f
Does he not?

Always needing to pick on a minority group. Pathetic...
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
7. So, introducing recognized partnerships is harmful,
because it threatens the stability of society? Aren't partnerships all ABOUT stability?

And the idea that disease is more rampant where homosexuality is practiced? Where does he get that hogwash?
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
12. as for the incidence of women "stoned" to death, Islam is UP there too
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
13. Sharia, Fundmentalist Christianity--whatever. Nutbags everywhere.
What a frigging lot of fools and idiots there are.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
15. It is religion that is the "lifestyle choice," not sexual orientation n/t
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-04-06 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #15
27. In reality, yes, but not in the minds of many religious people
Many will say it's "part of their identity", and cannot be changed, unlike, say, a political opinion. They have a partial point, in that brainwashing of the young is hard to change, and might be traumatic. But that really means that it is a 'lifestyle choice' made for them by their parents (who were also indoctrinated at an early age).
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
16. Muslims have murdered how many people? How many by gays?
when it comes to harm to humanity Islamics are certainly contenders.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/clark2008.htm
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Gays murder people daily
mostly in the movies , however (approved roles for gays, murderers and psychos)
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IA_Seth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-04-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #16
33. What about brown-eyed people?
Those damn brown-eyed people, right? I bet they killed a lot of people too. Those damn brown eyed hurters-of-humanity.

Sheesh, what a broad brush you paint with pal. So we should stack up body counts and see who is the "baddest of them all" is that what you are actually advocating?

I am not agreeing with this cleric by any means, but you insinuating that Islamics are harmful to society is rather close minded of you.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
18. How many other religions also make negative comments about gays?
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-04-06 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #18
29. Shorter list to catalogue those who DON'T...
Methodists, Unitarians... Think that's about it. And I'm not sure, but I'd venture that the Methodists might not be as accepting as their TV ads say thay are.
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pro_blue_guy Donating Member (286 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
22. Oy.
I'm sorry. This guy says it is harmful.


But who is physically being harmed? No one.



And who is emotionally being harmed? People who are homosexual (because of all of the negative attitudes and comments about sexuality, something which cannot be controlled).




I've said it before and I'll say it again. People can choose to have sex with a person of the opposite sex; people can choose to have sex with a person of the same sex. BUT, people cannot choose who they are attracted to! Does a sexual act define a person and their qualities? Absolutely not!
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
23. Tough shit.
If I have to choose between human rights for everyone or Islamic theological taboos, or any other kind of theological taboos, I'll pick the human rights. Religion is fine, but they can shove the superstitious crap.
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Stockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-04-06 05:22 AM
Response to Original message
26. Where have I heard this reasoning before?
n/t
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-04-06 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
32. How do you identify the head Muslim Council member?
He's the one with the dirty knees, of course.
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IA_Seth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-04-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. What do you mean by that? n/t
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iconoclastNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-04-06 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. That this dude has a lingering stare in the sauna
Edited on Wed Jan-04-06 06:44 PM by iconoclastNYC
He's probably has had more than a few hot male on male experiences.

A lot of homophobes hate gays because out and proud gay people remind themselves of thier repressed feelings. This theory is backed up by some scientific experiments. Most gay people have the experience of running into the High School homophobe years later in a gay bar.
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iconoclastNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-04-06 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
36. Is he with the AFA? Sure sounds like it.
If gays are harmful to society and should be dealt then why not deal with people who refuse to marry or have children too? I mean...they aren't forming stable child rearing families, right?

And I'd love to know how you can figure out how many "practicing" homosexuals there are in a given area.

Adultery is a much bigger threat to traditional families than hot male-on male action. There was that study that said in the USA something like (50-???%) of men and almost the same percentage of women have adultery. It was a high number. I guess hot man on man sex causes straight people to break their vows right?

These freaks need to get some therapy and come to terms with their conflicts.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-04-06 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
39. Muslims don't seem any better than Christians in regards to gays
For the most part, as far as I can tell. Fear and hatred of homosexuality seems to be common to most institutional religions. Kudos to religious people who can rise above this.
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