Government appeals currency redesign meant to help the blind

[beth9999]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061212/ap_on_go_pr_wh/blind_money_4

In short, a judge ordered the Repugs to redesign the paper money so that the blind can distinguish between different denominations of paper currency.

And the Repugs are appealing the decision. I guess the Repugs figure the blind don't need money anyway.

[Eric J in MN]

1. Bush is a compassionate conservative....

...which shows how lousy a philosophy conservatism is.

[Judi Lynn]

2. It will never seem a good idea until idiot Republicans actually suffer from the problem themselves.

Their ability to ape concern for others didn't arrive with them at birth, and it's almost impossible for them to develope as they age. They don't have the maturity, nor the depth required.

On edit:
They're like giant locusts. You just have to work around them. They only LOOK like human beings, to some extent.

[Kagemusha]

3. Unless the AP used the word "Repugs", use the original title

LBN rules. No need to court moderator grief.

[beth9999]

4. Ah, sorry about that.

It's my first thread. I'll fix the title (if I can)

[MidwestTransplant]

5. Way to play nice! Welcome to DU by the way.

[Kagemusha]

8. Good for you. Happy posting.

Glad my quick message was in time.

[twilight_sailing]

6. Why didn't we fix this problem 100 years ago?

For a bunch of relatively nice people we sure can be stupid sometimes.

[olddad56]

7. As a large group, we are not nice people.

[happyslug]

13. Up till about WWII, most people used coins, so this was NOT a problem 100 years ago.

For example a US Private pay in about 1940 was $30 a month. You could get a good size Candy bar for a Penny. A phone call was a Nickel (and held that value for decades as technology made the call cheaper as inflation made the nickel worth less). Daily papers were sold for a Penny (Through by WWII this had increased to about a Nickel). A Streetcar ride could be had for a nickel (and sometimes less, through by WWII this was edging up to a Dime). People did use one and fives, but rarely $10 and $20 (I remember as late as the 1970s Stores having signs that they could NOT change a $20 Bill). I remember in the late 1960s riding the bus for 35 cents (and that included a 10 cents Transfer).

Thus prior to WWII, a blind person could distinguish between the coins and that is all he needed. The problem was a inflation took off in the late 1960s (and it had been steady at about 2% from the 1930s to the 1960s) coins became more and more worthless. This increased with the much higher inflation of the 1970s (When the first move was made to get rid of the Cent as not worth anything anymore).

Thus starting in the 1950s you had more and more people using bills instead of Coins. The Blind had to follow for the Government refused to print bills with either Braille on them or of different size.

Thus my comment, 100 years ago the BLIND DID HAVE THE ABILITY TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THE CURRENCY THEY USED ON A DAY TO DAY BASIS, but the problem has been those coins have now become useless and most people use paper. This was NOT planed, it just happened and no one wants to fix the problem.

[twilight_sailing]

20. Point taken

[sweetheart]

9. They're superstitious about changing the size

They've fallen to idolitry and superstition as their moral values,
hoodoo, voodoo,
rich got more than you do,
change the size one two,
half the value, dollar's new.

[TheWraith]

11. Actually, there are good reasons not to change the size.

It would neccessitate replacing literally every machine designed to handle paper money in the country. Every cash register, change machine, vending machine, everything.

[Katzenjammer]

12. Those aren't good reasons. Those are merely expenses.

The cost of continuing to do business.

[TheWraith]

14. Why spend ten billion dollars when you don't have to?

Granted, that's just an off-the-cuff estimate of the cost--it could be lower, it could be a lot higher. But why would you choose to spend that money, introduce that kind of difficulty, when there are alternatives that would still comply with the ruling? Expanded coinage, raised bill markings, rubberized numbers, other things. Changing the size of a bill would be the last thing that you would want to think about.

[sweetheart]

15. If it were not the global norm

Banking machines suppliers have long accomodated different bill sizes in
counting machines and ATM machines. Thats why they work in the rest of the
world! Even this american one comments on variable bill sizes:
http://www.crdw.com/store.asp?pid=2643&catid=19558

You probably have not done much banking outside the US, or realize how global
the banking machines suppliers really are. Diebold is a german company supplying
ATM technology worldwide, so is NCR. Those industries cater to 'national solutions'.
http://www.fujitsu.com/global/news/pr/archives/month/2004/20040318.html

The costs are a misleading canard, when superstition about changing the greenback
lies underneath the real fear of changing.

Expanded coinage would be smart, considering that coins last so much longer than
bills in circulation, a 2$ and a 5$ coin are needed, even a 10$ coin wouldn't hurt.

Whatever they do, it will be stupid. One think is consistent about american
government actions since 2000, 100% stupid, mean and small hearted.

[happyslug]

17. Actual the real problem is who prints the Currency.

The people who print out Currency and the people who mint our coins are two different Bureaucracies. These groups have been lobbying Congress for years in the fight between Printing more Dollar bills or more Dollar Coins. The US Treasury for years have had a problem with the One Dollar bills, for they can NOT justify costs to introduce into the Dollar Bill the Security features of the Larger Bills. At the same time the average life time of a Dollar bill is 18 months, while any coin is 20 years. Canada, Britain and most other countries have LONG stop printing Dollar bills (Or in the case of Britain One Pound Notes, to my knowledge they has never been a one Euro Note). Thus part of the problem is the fight between these two groups for the right to make our Currency, for once the Dollar bill goes, the Five is not far behind and Congress while it is at it might just get rid of the ten also. This fear of lost of work is why they has been no change in the size of US Currency, not superstition or any other reason.

[sweetheart]

19. The mint should be fired

Outsourcing the mint would be a good idea, the people would get more value for their money,
and could specify what they wanted without the interference from embedded interests.
http://www.delarue.com/DLR_Content/CDA/Pages/Home/home/0,1641,,00.html

The 20 cent coin and the 2 dollar coin, improve efficiency greatly, not to be discounted for
value. After counting out and working with the british 2 penny (way too large), and the 2 pound,
and the 20p, they work brilliantly.

[happyslug]

27. The US Mint is extremely Efficient, but US Coins are set by Congress.

Thus the lobbying, for the Mint does NOT set what it may mint as coins, COngress does, The same with the US

The US Mint (These are the people who mint coins):
http://www.usmint.gov/index.cfm?flash=yes
History of the Mint:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Mint

Bureau of Engraving and Printing (These are the people who print the US Currency):
http://www.moneyfactory.gov/

The reason for the Split is Historical in some ways going back to George Washington Presidency, where Alexander Hamilton preferred paper money while Thomas Jefferson preferred Coins. Hamilton was Washington Secretary of the Treasury, while Jefferson was Washington's Secretary of State. Thus the Mint started out as part of the State Department not becoming part of the Treasury Department till 1873.

The same with the Bureau of Engraving and Printing, both agency are some of the most efficient at what they do. The real problem is what Congress wants them to do. One of the reason for the $1 coin was that Arizona Delegation to Congress wanted more coins minted to help the copper mines in their home state. At the same time the Bureau of Engraving and Printing did not want to lose jobs, so Congress decided to authorize Dollar Coins but NOT to withdraw Dollar Bills (Every other country that ended production of bills for coins always ended production of the bills when the Coins were introduced).

This is typical of Congress, not to make a hard decision if they can avoid it, no matte how trivial the decision is.

[Ediacara]

29. The slippery slope there is not as slippery as many think

When Canada reissued it's banknotes about 5 years ago they considered issuing a $5 coin. They didn't do it because as you increase value of coins, counterfeiting actually becomes a problem, and unfortunately, anti-counterfeiting devises are harder to put on coins than on paper. Holograms, optical variable ink, watermarks, and micro-printing work on paper because it's only meant to last 18 months. Anything like that on a piece of metal that's constantly handled and hoped to last for 10+ years would rub off almost instantly.

Also, I'm not sure if I buy the competing bureaucracies argument. The banknotes and coins issued by Canada are issued by different agencies, yet as far as I know, there was no push to keep the Canadian dollar bill. I think the problem in the US is a lot of absurdest nostalgia in the US Congress.

[happyslug]

32. The Infamous 5 cent counterfeit Nickel of WWII

During WWII Nickel was in short supply, so the Nickel in Nickels was replaced with Silver (35% silver if I remember right the rest was Copper, in a Regular Nickel, it is 95% Copper and 5 % Nickel).

Anyway some idiot counterfeited Nickels for those years but forgot to put the giant P the Mint put on its production of Silver based Nickels. This lead to his detection and later conviction (Before the 1970s the Philadelphia Mint did NOT put a mint mark on its production of coins with this single exception).

As to counterfeiting, they is a good way to prevent that, go back to Silver and Gold Base Coins. Given that Silver and Gold are two of the heaviest metals by Volume it is hard to duplicate the weight and keep up the same size. One example of this involved Silver Dollars from around 1900. At that time the Silver in a Silver Dollar was worth about 45 cents. What some counterfeiters did was mint their own coins with up to 95% Silver (US Coins were only 90% Silver) but given the difference in the price of Silver in the Coins and the Coins Face value they Counterfeiter made money. The coins were detected in recent tests by comparing the weight of the Coins with the combination of Copper and Silver in the Coins (Modern Techniques do not require that the Coin be melted to detected the proportion of Silver and copper in the Coins).

This is even true if you retain clad coinage instead of Silver and Gold, there are ways to detect counterfeiting if you keep the contents, weights and shape of the Coins to a rigid level. Once detected the coins can be traced just like paper money can be traced.

Furthermore given that you need a high pressure press to make a good coin even if your blanks meet the shape, Contents and weights of what the US mint does. Without a Good press the coin will look "odd" and quickly detected. No, even today it is harder to counterfeit Coins than Currency, given when it comes to Currency all you need is a press that can print and you can duplicate the other security items in and on the bill.

No the real reason Coins have NOT made a comeback is that the banks actually likes Bills. Coins weight a lot and a lot of banks do NOT want to carry the extra weight around. Even in the days of Gold Coins (Roughly 1870s till 1933) most people did NOT carry Gold Coins with them, instead they carried "Gold Certificates" redeemable in Gold. I remember reading about Cole Younger when he talked about the time he and the James Boys rob a bank and took with them Gold Coins. So few people used Gold Coins that Cole Younger had to sell them to a Fence at a huge discount, unlike the paper money which he and the James boys could use themselves. This was do to how much coins weigh and that banks and other people who used large amounts of Cash just did NOT want to be weighed down by the Gold when they could have paper instead. Please note during the Civil War when they was some questions as to the Solvency of the US Gold Coins were preferred to Paper money with paper at a discount over gold, but that was do to the fear that the US may default of those Bills not that people preferred Coins to Bills when both were viewed as safe investments.

The Old Silver Dollar suffered from the same fate, it was viewed as to heavy for people to carry in their pockets (The Quarter was preferred for each coins was lighter as was the paper dollar). The "Ike" Dollar of the 1970s suffered from the same fate, it was just to heavy (Through liked by Vegas given its sound when someone won the tokens used today are the same size as the old Ike Dollars). The Susan B Anthony Dollar was to solve this problem, but while blind people liked the Coin, it was often mistaken for a quarter by sighted people given its Silver Clad format. I suspect the proposed Canadian 5 dollar Coins suffered from the same fate, it had to be bigger than the One Dollar Coin and thus on the heavy side for most people. Thus I suspect it was the wight more than the fear of Counterfeiting that prevented Canada from introducing a Five Dollar Coin.

[Ediacara]

28. That cost estimate is 100% fantasy

The government must (and will) redesign and reissue paper currency due to anti-counterfeiting efforts. Any blind-accessible changes would wait until the next series of notes are issued (which is what the plaintiff is asking for anyway). That would cost the government an additional $0.00. Every time new currency is issued, the vending machine industry goes into a tail spin because they need to reprogram their machines to recognize the new currency. The government tells them what to look for, the machines are reprogrammed, and it cost virtually nothing. Additionally, vending machines don't last forever and will be replaced over time, so again, it's not an undue financial burden.

Lastly, there's no reason an extant vending machine couldn't be reprogrammed to accept differently sized currency. Many currencies with differing sized increase size in only one direction, keeping a uniform height, but increasing length as the denomination increases:







So the existing slot and machinery are still perfectly usable.

[TheWraith]

35. No, it's not.

It's possible to change the designs on the notes without seriously affecting existing machinery. However, changing size is a radically different issue, and just changing the length doesn't help. More to the point, you'd have to replace all the machines that don't support being reprogrammed, which is most of them, since you would need a new dollar bill as well. Again, there's no reason at all to talk about changing the size of money if there are other alternatives.

[Ediacara]

36. So all these machines went through 2 redesigns without being reprogrammed?

Gimme a break.... So why would a change in length need new machinery? Explain that to me since vendining machines pull until the bill is in, optically scan for clues as to its identity based on programmed provided by the government, and then continue pulling the bill until it's in the safe. They don't rotate wheels a set number of times because the machine designers know that the wheels will slip. Additionally, most vending machines know how to recognize dollar coins and you don't need a new dollar bill.

Also, why was this not a problem in all the other countries where bill length changed?

[happyslug]

16. The US Currency System needs to be overhauled.

When the US set up its present currency system in the 1920s, it reflected a lot of history. Jefferson's efforts to make the system a decimal system, the adoption of the "Gold" Standard in 1898 (and the influence of the "Free Silver" Movement of the 1800s). Thus in the late 1920s it was decided to change the currency system of the US. The change was gigantic for it was the wholesale adoption of today's paper currency replacing the much larger bills that had been used previously. Gold Coins were still being minted at that time, but most people used paper for amounts over 1 Dollar (Gold Coins were minted in $2.50, $5, $10, and $20 denominations, the $1 gold coin being only minted for a few years in the late 1800s, it was unpopular for it was to small). Silver coins was used for 10, 25, 50 and $1 amounts (With most people using dollar bills instead of Silver Dollars do to the Silver Dollars heavy weight). Bills were printed in $1, $2, $5, $10, $20, $50, $100, $500, $1000, and $10,000 dominations (There was also a $100,000 bill but it was only used between branches of the Federal Reserve, all dominations above $100 were withdrawn in 1969).

Now during this time period you had a problem with the Cent often being to valuable for use (A concept we can NOT even image today). To solve this problem various merchants around 1900 started to give out "Stamps" for amounts of less than a Cent (and this involved into the Stamp programs of the middle 20th Century (And the inflation of the early 1970s kill the Stamps as the Cent dropped in value to almost nothing).

I will NOT go into the various coins used in the 1800s including the 2 cent piece, the 3 cent Peirce, the 1/2 Cent, the 1/2 dime (Which was made out of Silver but value was set at five Cents, unpopular do to its small size), nor the Civil War and Post-Civil War currency (During that time period the only coin in general circulation was the Cent, paper money was issued for all amounts above 1 cent i.e. not only Dollar amounts but 3 cent, 5 Cent, 25 Cent and 50 Cent paper money).

What is needed is a complete re-do of our Currency along the following lines:

1. The Dime to be kept, but the Cent, Nickel and Quarter are abolished (You can NOT keep the Quarter unless you keep the Nickel, thus all three coins must go).

2. The 50 Cent coins be increased in production to replace the Quarters and the $1 dollar bill.

3. A new $1 Coin to be introduced, to replace the $1 Bill, this should be the size of the Nickel. The present One Dollar coins are to large if you want to re-introduce $5 and $10 coins. An alternative would be to keep the present size but make the $5 coin mentioned below Smaller.

4. A new $5 Coin, about the Size of the quarter but thiner so blind people can feel the difference (If the present One Dollar coin is kept make the coin about the size of the Nickel but copper with and edge and thiner so blind people can feel the difference).

5. A new $10 coin, copper but sized larger than the $5 piece, (i.e. about the size of the 50 cent piece (or if the present one dollar coins is kept larger then the $1 coin instead).

6. Keep the $20 as it is, it is the most popular of the larger bills (i.e. more popular than 10s, 50s, and even 100s in day to day usage, but less popular than $1s and $5s).

7. Make a smaller $50 Bill.

8. Make an even Smaller $100 bill

9. Make an even smaller $500 Bill (This is the compete with the $500 Euro Bill that has become popular word wide since its introduction a few years ago).

The above is doable, the Dime and the $20 bill can act as transition pieces while the Quarter, Nickel, Cent, $1 Bill, $5 Bill and $10 Bills are removed from use. At the same time the $1, $5 and $10 Coins can be introduced to reflect the inflation the US has had since 1929.

[Katzenjammer]

21. Even better: devalue by a factor of 100

Make pennies and nickels worth something again.

[happyslug]

22. Like what the French did in 1960?

Thus the story of "New Francs" and "Old Frances" of the 1960s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_franc#Before_the_French_Revolution

[Katzenjammer]

26. Basically. The alternative is to end up like some other countries

where the fractional amounts are essentially meaningless and even the major unit is worthless enough that prices for fairly ordinary things are in the tens or hundreds of thousands (e.g. Japan, where the sen is utterly useless and it costs Y5,000 for two tickets to a film!)

[Ediacara]

30. That only happened because of hyperinflation

There's no reason to do that to the dollar (now).

[happyslug]

33. But we are headed for problems NOW

Pre-1982 Cents are worth about 2 1/2 cents if melted down to be copper. It is coming close to over a cent to make a Cent today (Cents since 1982 are Zinc covered Steel). The nickel and copper in the Nickel is getting nearer and nearer to 5 cents (Through not at that price yet) but the COST to make a nickel given the machinery to make a Nickel is almost 5 cents. The last three times when the price of the metal in a Coin neared or exceeded its face value those coins have been replaced (The Gold Coins of 1933, the Silver Coins in 1964 and the Copper Cent in 1982). We are again at that level.

Thus the Cent and probably the Nickel needs to be replaced. The problem is with what? The best solution is to STOP production of both and declare them both obsolete Coinage and for all practical purposes make the Dime the New Penney. Withdraw the rest of the Coins and start a new series of Coins with a new coin about the size of the Nickel but Thiner and call it the new half Dollar. Make the New Dollar Coin about the size of the Quarter (But Thiner). Keep the present Copper Dollar but add to it a larger copper $5 piece and an even larger $10 piece. Keep currency for amounts from $20 and up.

Proposed New Coinage:
Clad Coinage:
Ten Cent piece - Same as Present (FDR)
50 Cent Piece - Same as Present (Kennedy)

Copper Coinage:
$1 Dollar Piece - Same as Present (Sacajawea)
$5 Dollar Piece - Lincoln (Make it look like an enlarged Cent) About the size of a thin half Dollar
$10 Dollar Piece - Standing Liberty, about the size a thin (as a Dime) old Ike Dollar.

Now I see the $10 Coin being rarely if even used (Just like the Present $2 Bill) but I think it should be available in case it is needed if inflation eats away even more at the coinage base.

[Ediacara]

37. We are in no way headed toward hyperinflation

When the buying power of the dollar loses 75% of its value with respect to other world currencies in a matter of weeks, get back to me.

[happyslug]

38. I did NOT mention Hyperinflation, I mean the need to abolish the Cent and Nickel

The US is in a crisis when it comes to these two coins, and a general reform is needed do to the need to abolish these two coins.

Hyperinflation would make all of this moot, we be using $100,000 notes buy candy bars if hyperinflation was the problem. The problem is more mundane, the need to abolish two coins (The Cent and the Nickel) which leads to the abolishment of a third (The Quarter). While we are at it we meanwhile do a good job at the reform and adopt the Dollar Coin.

[Ediacara]

31. I have a different idea

I don't understand the point of having anything under the basic unit. Why should cents exist?

Here's my scheme:

Coins:
Equivalent of the Nickel: 1 Unit
Equivalent of the Dime: 2 Units
Equivalent of the Quarter: 5 units
Equivalent of the Half: 10 units
Equivalent of the Dollar: 20 units
Equivalent of $2.50: 50 units

Notes:
Equivalent of $5: 100 units
Equivalent of $10: 200 units
Equivalent of $25: 500 units
Equivalent of $50: 1000 units
Equivalent of $100: 2000 units
Equivalent of $250: 5000 units

But.... until we do that, we should scrap the penny and quarter, make the half smaller, and introduce a 20 cent and $2 coin.

[sweetheart]

34. Mine is even simpler

Your system, except 1 unit == 1 joules.

[Ediacara]

23. That's 100% bull

The vending machine industry does just fine in those countries with currencies that aid the blind (the yellow countries have differently sized notes, the blue countries have raised features, and the green countries have both).



The vending machine canard comes up every time new currency is issued and it boils down to reprogramming the machines so that they can identify the new notes. It's happened twice in the last ten years, and will continue to happen until the end of time.

[beth9999]

18. Close...

... in reality, it's because they're Repugs who don't care about the blind.

[LiberalFighter]

39. Probably filled up with secret messages embedded into the currency

If they change the size of the currency it will change the secret religious messages & signs.

[burrowowl]

10. Dutch currency has been blind friendly for ages

The Euro as well, not only are bill sizes different there are little spots to identify their denomination.

[annabanana]

24. Oh fer cryin' out loud. . . So it'll cost some money. .

It'll cost some money once. They should just do it.

[beth9999]

25. But they're Repugs...

... who have a need to stick it to the handicapped. They'll never change.

[ducati588]

40. Currency

Canada has money as that fits the requisite parameters as outlined by the court. The paper currency does not have to be of different sizes like some European currency. Canadian bills are all the same size and yet satisfy the requirements outlined by your courts.

CDN currency however is different colours, so if you are only fond of green you may have a difficult time.

In any event the upgrade is not as big a deal as one may think.

Cheers,
Rob