Pakistan condemns Rushdie honor

[rayofreason]

Source: Yahoo news

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Pakistan on Monday condemned Britain's award of a knighthood to author Salman Rushdie as an affront to Muslim sentiments, and a Cabinet minister said the honor provided a justification for suicide attacks.

"This is an occasion for the (world's) 1.5 billion Muslims to look at the seriousness of this decision," Mohammed Ijaz ul-Haq, religious affairs minister, said in parliament.

"The West is accusing Muslims of extremism and terrorism. If someone exploded a bomb on his body, he would be right to do so unless the British government apologizes and withdraws the 'sir' title," ul-Haq said.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070618/ap_en_ot/pakistan_rushdie_knighthood

---

Be careful not to "affront Muslim sentiments." Be very careful.

[acmavm]

1. This was damn stupid. (See the original thread)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=116x15505

[Solo_in_MD]

9. A Heckler's Veto should never be allowed

[barb162]

19. Damned right! n/t

[Igel]

41. You're absolutely right.

I know that everything I do from now on is going to be done in mind with what the religion minister in Pakistan thinks. If I offend him, he's said people have a right to kill me. I'm sure you already experience the freedom that comes with submission to your betters, humbled by threats and rejoicing in intimidation. I'd love to hear how it's working out, selling out your freedom out of fear.

...

Yes, I abhor thee and thy throne,
Oh, miscreant in despot's clothing!
Thy doom, thy children's dying groan,
I witness them with mirthful loathing.
Upon thy brow one reads the sign
Of subject people's degradation,
World's horror, blemish of creation,
Reproach on earth to the Divine.

...

Henceforward, rulers, know this true:
That neither blandishments nor halters
Make trusty buttresses for you,
Nor dungeon walls, nor sacred altars.
Be ye the first to bow you down
Beneath Law's canopy eternal:
The people's bliss and freedom vernal
Will keep forever safe your crown.

("Law" is close here in meaning to Jefferson's idea of
"law of nature and of nature's God".)

[CJCRANE]

2. The knighthood

for Rushdie and the one for the ex-Soviet defector was a pretty clear message to the muslim fundamentalists and the Russians.

[xchrom]

3. i can not agree that britain doesn't have the right to confer

knighthood on whom it pleases.

it's a personal choice -- and an ignorant one at that -- if certain individual muslims want to take offense at this for all muslims.

osama bin laden nor ahmedinajhad speak for all muslims do they?

[ananda]

4. good grief

It's only a Knight Bachelor.

[geek tragedy]

5. Can someone point these fundyclowns to a calendar

and point out that the Middle Ages are over?

[Tyler Durden]

6. Why? Nobody does it to OUR fundyclowns.

I won't even START to list the fundy follies going on around this country.

[Solo_in_MD]

7. the fundie xtians are much more tolerant & less dangerous that the muslim fundies

by at least an order of magnitude. To lump them together as the same level of risk is either ignorant or dishonest at best.

[rayofreason]

13. Right on.

The inability to distinguish between degrees of intolerance is moral infantilism.

[Tyler Durden]

26. Especially the ones who told my daughter she was evil and going to HELL.

My daughter is adopted from China, and has been raised Buddhist. So much for Fundamentalist Tolerance.

[rayofreason]

31. Telling your daughter...

...that she is evil and going to Hell is a bad thing, and someone who says that should be exposed for the fool and bigot that they are.

Someone who thinks your daughter is evil, that she should go to Hell, and dispatches her there citing religion as the motivator is worse. Equating the two is moral infantilism.

[Tyler Durden]

15. REALLY?

http://www.msnbc.com/modules/clinics/
Abortion Clinic Violence

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/02/24/elec04.prez.bush.marriage/
Same Sex Marriage discrimination

http://mediamatters.org/items/200508220006
Calls for assasination


Do I REALLY need to keep going???

[Solo_in_MD]

17. Really

How many beheadings, murders, kidnappings, stonings have been committed by fundie xtains? Of those, how many went undenounced by the vast majority of xtians? How many mosques have been burned by xtians in this country.

Its a matter of risk and scope. The xtians are at times a PITA, but they are at least an order of magnitude less threat to the rights of others than muslims. A follower of Falwell might try not to rent a gay or unmarried couple an apartment, but in a muslim country they would be stoned to death with the blessing of the mullahs.

So yes, muslims and islam is much more a threat to safety, rights and liberties of the rest of us.

My experience with islam is up close and personal... http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Solo_in_MD/1

[Tyler Durden]

22. I'm sorry for your "personal" experience.

Just as I am certain that there are Southern Baptists who still dress up in sheets and burn crosses, I am just as certain that there are those that work for peace and justice.

When you condemn ALL of a people/race/religion for the actions of their extremists, you behave as they do.

Your journal entry is a blanket condemnation, and MY personal experience with ISLAM since 1971 in this country does not bear any resemblance to the fundamentalism you decry, and decry RIGHTLY SO.

Substitute "Black Drug user" in your entry, and THEN talk about "...fruit not falling far from the tree."

[Solo_in_MD]

29. I'm sorry for your inability to discern between levels of risk, a life critical skill IMO

How any thinking person can see them as anywhere near equivalent is beyond me.

One key difference is the reaction/tacit support given to the extremists. Where are the denunciations of the ongoing hate, death, and destruction done in the name of islam? For every incident of anti-abortion violence, the level of denunciation in this country has been deafening. When people are raped, injured, and killed in the name of islam, CAIR and others speak out about how me must respect their religion, even though it steps on our basic freedoms. Look at the sharia, and ask if you would want your daughter living under its strictures.

The fruit of islam, in the US and world wide is really non-existent.

[barb162]

18. As a matter of fact, you do. Got anything CURRENT for starters?

Like 2007? 2006? Actual incidents of violence?

You posted something referencing 1980s and 1990s.

And if you want to talk about marriage problems in society, take a look at sharia Muslim countries and honor killings and what happens to gays in Muslim societies.

[Tyler Durden]

24. If you noticed, the Bush and Pat Robertson items were less than 2 years old.

I don't defend what goes on in other countries, any more than I defend the evil of fundamentalism in THIS country.

I think you have an anti-muslim ax to grind: you should examine your motives. I should be guilty of the same thing if I started saying that ALL Christians were equal to the fundamentalists, which they are not.

[barb162]

42. Whose talking about "all" again other than you?

Seems you have an anti-Christian axe to grind because you're trying to equate Christian with Muslim violence but you can't come up with anything that supports actual incidents of VIOLENCE in the last year or two by Christians. Hey, an item published recently about incidents from the 80s-90s, gimme a break. Were there any actual incidents of violence THIS YEAR by Christian fundamentalists? I certainly don't remember reading about any. Are you trying to deflect the subject because you know I'm right? Answer: There were none.

BTW I have a thing against violence and especially religious and/ or sexual violence, such as rape. I see a lot of violence coming from Muslim fundies these days but not Christians. Don't you?

[rayofreason]

23. You should have posted about the latest atrocities.

You know. All of the images of fundamentalist Christian suicide bombers, or fundamentalist Christians beheading apostates and unbelievers, or fundamentalist Christians rioting because someone disrespected the Bible or the Crucifix.

Oh. Wait. Those kinds of pictures don't exist. Those kinds of events don't happen. Not even when Andres Serrano published "Piss Christ". What do you think would be the reaction to "Piss Koran"?

[Tyler Durden]

25. I think your prejudice is showing.

My experience IN THIS COUNTRY with Muslims since 1971 is with people of peace and non-violence. We have extremely large Muslim communities in Michigan, and they are supportive of the country, and do not espouse violence or prejudice in any way. A group from the Islam Center in Flint came to the UCC Church in Owosso two times since 911 for fellowship and discussions of PEACE. They were KIND, INTELLIGENT, AND GRACIOUS.

[rayofreason]

30. No prejudice, just facts.

Your experience is just that, a local sampling that is not 100% representative of Muslims worldwide, unless you wish to deny that Islamists are doing all the things that they are accused of doing. Just because your community is not full of Islamist wackos doesn't mean that they don't exist.

Let's say that 99% of 1 billion Muslims are exactly as you describe them, but that the other 1% are violent extremists. That would make 10 million violent extremists, which would be a real problem, no matter how you slice it. I would argue that we are dealing with more than 1%.

Again, the fact is that we see riots and murder in the Islamic world everytime there is a preceived "insult" - be it Danish cartoons or a book by Salman Rushdie. You don't see Christians doing that, even when confronted with REAL insults, like "Piss Christ". Look at what happened when the Pope quoted a Byzantine emperor in a rather esoteric discussion on whether rational behavior was purely a Greek idea or if it was required by the notion of a loving God.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/16/pope.islam.0750/index.html

Several nuns were murdered, among other outrages. But no Christians burned Mosques in response. These are facts, not prejudice.

But could it be that you harbor prejudice against Christians? There must be some defect of rational thought at work. How else can one explain equating "a constitutional amendment Tuesday that would restrict marriage to two people of the opposite sex but leave open the possibility that states could allow civil unions." (from the CNN article you posted) to what happens in Islamic countries (see http://www.indegayforum.org/news/show/27154.html)? Only prejudice and moral blindness could lead someone to equate the two.

[CJCRANE]

33. Take a look around the world.

Do you know anything about the war in Congo/Zaire? That was the war with the most civilian casualties since world war two (been going on for 30+ years). How about the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda who've been killing and raping kids and civilians for 30 years? How about the genocide committed in the "Christian" country of Rwanda? How about the drug wars and disappearances that happened in Latin America...Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, Maoist terrorists in Nepal etc etc.

Europeans killed 60 million civilians in a war within living memory...not to mention that most American soldiers in Iraq (85% in a poll a couple of years ago) think that "shock and awe" was revenge for 9/11 because Saddam did it.

And that's not even looking into American history a few decades ago (or further).

Violence and ignorance are not unique to the muslim world. Muslims comprise 1/6th of the human population so of course they're going to commit a lot of violence, but they are not uniquely violent, all human cultures have ignorance and violence.

[barb162]

47. What kinds of stuff are you bringing up here, every crazy on the planet?

Maoists (????),some nut who thinks he's a spirit medium? Lord's Resistance Army:
" It is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself a spirit medium, and apparently wishes to establish a state based on the Ten Commandments and Acholi tradition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army

What? A spirit medium is now Christian? That's not any Christianity I know.
Rwanda has some Christians but most of the peoples who live there combine it with very strong ancient indigineous beliefs and they were having a tribal/civil war to boot.
Tamil Tigers; a terror group, nationalism group...what about it? Who cares for the purpose of this discussion other than they murder a lot of innocent people.

You are correct about this: "Violence and ignorance are not unique to the muslim world."

Now here you are half wrong: "Muslims comprise 1/6th of the human population so of course they're going to commit a lot of violence, but they are not uniquely violent, all human cultures have ignorance and violence."

Yes, all human cultures have ignorance and violence BUT terrorist acts recently are being committed by radical Muslims, NOT Christians, NOT Taoists and not peoples of many other religions. There are probably almost as many Christians as Muslims, but look who is committing terrorism these days: Radical Muslims.

I can only conclude you are deflecting from what was asked of you because you know recent Christian violence / terrorism is pure fiction. Radical Muslim terrorism is not fiction at all. There have been many acts of radical Islamic violence the last few years. It's undeniable.

[barb162]

44. Let's talk radicals, not moderates.

We're not talking about the moderate Muslims or moderate Christians or moderate anyone else. We're talking about radical Muslims, radical Christians, etc., who act out violently. I am not seeing actual acts of religious violence by Christians.

[barb162]

45. There is no prejudice there. That poster wrote of actual incidents

of violence, which you seem to want to deflect, because you just changed the subject to your own personal experience. My personal experience is that I have experienced no violence with Muslims or Christians. But I sure can read the papers and see lots of incidents lately occurring around the world with Islamic radical violence. I mean, just about daily.

[toopers]

58. Keep in mind . . .

of all the hot conflicts through out the world, muslims are involved in almost all of them, at least on one side of the conflict, and sometimes on both sides of the conflicts.

[barb162]

43. Yes you do. Two of the articles have nothing to do with violence

as the second is about same sex marital laws (or lack thereof) and the third obviously was never acted on and is from 2005 since Chavez is still with us. The first goes through 80s and early 90s clinic bombings, stuff from 20-30 years ago. There is nothing here about current actual acts of violence.
Robertson, though is a complete idiot and I suspect his handlers told him to retract that asisine statement somewhere along the line.

[toopers]

60. And you forgot about the Da Vinci code . . .

when Dan Brown wrote his book, the pope told all his believers to strap bombs to themselves and attack the author. When the movie came out, again the pope asked the catholic followers to kill Dan Brown and Ron Howard. Oh yeah, this didn't happen.

[LeftishBrit]

52. They are not more tolerant, but they are less dangerous because they have less power

They do not have full and explicit control of any government nowadays. When they did (e.g. the Spanish Inquisition) they were just as dangerous.

And I hope they never do. And that all theocracy and religious intimidation, whether from Islam, Christianity, or any other religion becomes obsolete.

Religion - any religion - is OK as such. Theocracy and religious intimidation of any sort are evil.

[rayofreason]

11. Who said...

...the Middle Ages are over? In many places today they are alive and kicking, particularly in Islamic countries. Unfortunately, there are many who think that the Middle Ages should be everywhere, not just in their countries. While not a majority view, it is a large enough minority sentiment to be a serious problem.

I really have no doubt that in this century the Middle Ages will be over everywhere, and that societies that are currently traditional, patriachal, and theocratic will be forced to change. Violence and discrimination against women and gays will become unacceptable as well as illegal world-wide, and open, pluralistic societies will extend their reach everywhere. But it is going to a long haul getting from here to there. Along the way those who feel their traditions and belief are being challenged will react. And the more rigid the belief, the more violent the reaction.

[Boojatta]

54. Did the word "knighthood" make them forget it's not the Middle Ages?

[Vexatious Ape]

8. We're dealing with 7th Century throw-backs here.

It will be interesting to see how the Brit's handle this.

[Solo_in_MD]

10. Hopefully by ignoring the illerate mobs the imams foment

If you read the other articles on this, the muslim fundies are attempting a Heckler's Veto, and should be told to bugger off.

[Vexatious Ape]

12. It's to bad for Rushdie.

All the crap he's been through, and he's not the only one. They want to kill Ayaan Hirsi Ali as well.
http://ayaanhirsiali.web-log.nl/ayaanhirsiali/english/index.html

[Solo_in_MD]

14. The more islam is exposed for what it is, the easier it will be to consign it to history

[Vexatious Ape]

16. You're right.

Militant Islam is the most conservative force/ideology/world-view on the damn planet.

[CJCRANE]

20. It's just a game.

Blair knows that knighting Rushdie will annoy the Iranians and the usual suspects. There are 57 muslim majority countries and it seems like only a couple of officials from Iran and Pakistan have spoken on this.

In the meantime the British are paying Prince Bandar £10 million a month and doing deals with all the arab monarchies and dictatorships who are our allies. The islamophobes will be whipped up into a frenzy and so will the fundamentalists on the other side and the elites will laugh, drink their cocktails and do their billion dollar deals.

[truebrit71]

21. A Pakistani Government official publicly advocates the murder of a private citizen...

...living in another country and these guys are our 'friends' HOW exactly?

And of course by opening his piehole and advocating violence he has done wonders for the rehabilitation of his own religion as being 'peaceful' rather than one that has been 'hi-jacked by extremists'...

Mucking foron.... :grr:

[Odin2005]

27. Those whiners need to get out of the damn Middle Ages.

These fuckers are not just threatening Sir Rushdie, they are threatening the very liberal values Western Civilization is based on. :grr:

[arewenotdemo]

28. Has Sir Rushdie condemned Britain's complicity in the rape and destruction

of Iraq?

I'm all for the exposure of and resistance to religious extremism. However, Rushdie is a complete fool if he does not see he is being used in this matter.

[DavidDvorkin]

34. That's Sir Salman

Not Sir Rushdie.

[LeftishBrit]

55. He's a writer, not a political activist

He has every right to his knighthood, without a Minister in another country calling for his murder and by implication threatening our citizens.

Yes, our government's complicity in the Iraq war is evil; but that is a separate issue.

[Coventina]

32. So let me get this straight....a government minister of Pakistan

is saying suicide bombing attacks are justified because of a symbolic, outmoded honor is given by another government to one of its citizens?

Wow.

I think he may need mental help. That goes beyond extremism, that's just nutty.

[Solo_in_MD]

35. Welcome to islam and the sharia

you should see what else is being said...

[Coventina]

37. Like I said, it seems to go beyond ideology and into mental health.

If this brand of "Islam" really makes people believe in those kinds of statements, maybe we can figure out a way to slip Prozac into their water supply. Seriously.

[CJCRANE]

39. Ok

we live in world of six billion people, and a lot of them are saying nutty things.

But who has actually invaded a country in the last ten years and dismantled its entire political and military infrastructure and left it in a state of total chaos based on a lie?

The whole islam and sharia thing wouldn't be an issue except for the neocons and their deliberate plans and policy to aggrevate and increase both christian and muslim fundamentalism.

[Solo_in_MD]

40. The issues with islam and sharia are independent of NeoCons

and have been building since the 70s.

[Codeine]

49. Baloney.

Fundamentalist Islam, and every other "Invisible Sky Daddy" religion for that matter, is an evil force; progressives shouldn't find themselves excusing the actions or statements of filthy fucking swine like this just because they use words like "Allah" and "Mohamed" to justify their bullshit instead of (the equally pernicious) "God" and "Jesus."

Religion is poison.

[leftynyc]

57. The fatwa on Mr. Rushdie

happened long before the chimp went to Iraq. I can't believe you're blaming bush for islamic fundamentalism. The taliban was making women virtual slaves long before 9/11 and it wasn't the result of anything the west did. Sharia law sucks and has nothing to do with the west. The moral relativism I'm seeing is nauseating. I can hate bush and still think islamic fundamentalists are a scourge that should not be ignored.

[LeftishBrit]

59. Not true of Pakistan....

It's true that Islamic fundamentalism wouldn't be the same problem in IRAQ if not for the war; but there are several other countries that have had Islamic theocratic governments over a long period. Zia ul Haq was president of Pakistan in the 80s and his government was extremely right-wing and theocratic. The fatwa on Rushdie dates from then.

[SKKY]

36. If Pakistan is mad, wait until India gets a copy of his newest book...

It's called, "Buddah you fat faggot!"

[Solo_in_MD]

38. Why? India is mostly Hindu

If it said "Shiva is my bitch", that would be different

[barb162]

48. ...

I shouldn't laugh...but I burst out laughing.

[SKKY]

50. I know. I'm normally pretty sensitive to things like that...

...but when Father Lou told me that joke, I about wet myself.

[JCMach1]

46. Wish someone would criticize what an overrated writer he is

Sad but true...

Now he can be called Sir Inflated Wind Bag

[Nihil]

53. Thank you.

Whilst I agree that the Pakistani minister is off his trolley, the first
thing that came to my mind was "They gave one to RUSHDIE? WTF?".

It used to be that honours were worthy of their name and awarded to people
who deserved them. These days they are totally devalued, being sold to
Tony Blair's backers, given to mediocre sports "stars" and "awarded" to
third-rate authors whose main output is sensationalistic dross.

I am not in favour of "the Hecklers Veto" but neither am I in favour of
totally trumped-up distractions like this being used to cover up the
misdeeds of a failed politician.

[LeftishBrit]

51. Aren't religious right-wingers delightful!

This particular Pakistani minister sounds nuts.

Glad that Rushdie got the knighthood.

[Eugene]

56. Bhutto condemns Rushdie attack

Source: The Guardian

Bhutto condemns Rushdie attack

Duncan Campbell
Friday June 22, 2007
The Guardian

Benazir Bhutto, the former prime minister of Pakistan, yesterday
called for the sacking of the religious affairs minister who was
reported as justifying a suicide bomb attack on Salman Rushdie.
Ms Bhutto, who is in exile, issued a statement as the controversy
over the award of a knighthood to the author continued, with
burnings of Mr Rushdie in effigy and the award of a retaliatory
honour to Osama bin Laden.

Ms Bhutto said Mohammad Ejaz ul-Haq had damaged Islam and
Pakistan with his remarks in the Pakistan parliament. Mr ul-Haq
has since said he was not condoning violence.

Ms Bhutto said: "The minister ... son of a previous military
dictator who had patronised extremist groups, had done a great
disservice both to the image of Islam and the standing of Pakistan
by calling for the murder of foreign citizens." Mr Ul-Haq is the
son of Mohammad Zia ul-Haq, who in 1977 overthrew prime
minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, Ms Bhutto's father.

-snip-

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,2108853,00.html