Clinton confronts anti-war liberals

[Barrett808]

Source: AFP

WASHINGTON (AFP) - Democratic 2008 front-runner Hillary Clinton on Wednesday bluntly said Iraq's government had failed, and condemned President George W. Bush on stem-cell research, as she wooed liberal activists.

Senator Clinton attracted sporadic boos from peace campaigners angered by her past positions on the war, but repeated ovations for her domestic policies, as she addressed the "Take Back America" conference of 3,000 activists here.

"The American military has succeeded, it is the Iraqi government which has failed to make the tough decisions that are important for their own people," Clinton said.

That comment drew boos and jeers from a group of "Code Pink" anti-war activists, who held up signs that read "Out of Iraq Now."

"You know, I love coming here every year, I see the signs: 'Lead us out of Iraq now.' -- that is what we are trying to do," Clinton said, refering to her visit to the conference last year when she was roundly booed after refusing to sign up to firm dates for troop withdrawals.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070620/pl_afp/usvote2008clinton

[Phredicles]

1. Leading us out by the really, really, really, really, really slow route, is evidently the plan.

:eyes::puke::eyes::puke::eyes::puke::eyes:

[peacebird]

29. so slow that we are actually increasing troops as we "leave" apparently

:eyes:

she loves coming here, year after year and seeing the "Out of Iraq" signs?!? omg - THINK before you speak woman! How about "I would love to come here next year and not HAVE to see the get us out of Iraq signs, because we will have already pulled out?"

[Javaman]

113. much like the abbott and costello routine of walking backwards in to a theater

and telling the ticket taker they are leaving.

[Tempest]

2. 'Lead us out of Iraq now.' -- that is what we are trying to do,"

Bullshit.

She clearly said she would leave a contingent of troops in Iraq.

[saigon68]

93. More Cannon fodder

But after all illegal aliens can join up and get instant citizenship in the big green machine.

They will risk their ass to get a green card

[Steerpike]

112. I may be wrong.

I have heard that "illegal aliens" have been fighting and dieing in the US Military since WWII. When asked they usually say they are doing it for love of country.

[wordpix]

139. next sign for Clinton: "Let us lead US out of Iraq.\"

[demnan]

3. Mrs. Clinton better get on board

she's losing her base.

[Pastiche423]

30. She has a base?

Besides the DLC, I mean.

[ProudDad]

117. Yep, here's her base

Corporations:

Citigroup Inc $101,450
DLA Piper $87,350
Morgan Stanley $79,350
NRG Energy $73,250
Goldman Sachs $68,700
Time Warner $65,550
Farallon Capital Management $59,800
Bear Stearns $55,550
Avenue Capital Group $52,600
JP Morgan Chase & Co $47,950
Skadden, Arps et al $45,650
Akin, Gump et al $44,450
Cisco Systems $44,050
Lehman Brothers $41,650
Comcast Corp $39,800
Saban Capital Group $39,100
Paul, Weiss et al $38,900
Ernst & Young $38,900
Merrill Lynch $37,650


Top Industries

Lawyers/Law Firms $3,016,835
Securities & Investment $1,676,450
Real Estate $1,384,280
Retired $1,326,681
Business Services $881,650
TV/Movies/Music $794,958
Misc Finance $722,300
Misc Business $707,400
Education $545,795
Health Professionals $486,196
Printing & Publishing $336,525
Computers/Internet $264,020
Commercial Banks $241,900
Misc Manufacturing & Distributing $236,600
Lobbyists $234,550
Retail Sales $228,718
(Wal Mart perhaps?)
Insurance $226,450
Non-Profit Institutions $211,150
Civil Servants/Public Officials $209,299
Construction Services $149,050

Since insurance is so low on the list why isn't she coming out for HR676 -- Medicare for all?

[rodeodance]

4. Dems ARE trying but need 67 VOTES!

[Deep13]

6. Congress' check on the military is its funding power.

The framers of the Constitution were very clear on that. They cannot seriously be in favor of withdrawal if they keep passing funding bills with no strings attached.

[davidwparker]

14. there you go. if they had sent the benchmarks back to * again and again

funding only the troops -- no war profiteers -- the Dems would be sticking to their 2006 mandate and the public would see the Republicans and * as "not supporting the troops."

[humbled_opinion]

23. Your assessment is so true.

Why did they buckle? It really makes no sense at all to me. Give the People what they want (PERIOD).

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

46. "Why did they buckle?"

Who funds their campaigns?

Answer my question and you'll have answered yours.

[Zhade]

97. Of course, there's that little open secret that they didn't even have to send a bill AT ALL.

Just refuse, and point out that the money was for bullets and nombs, not the armor and food the troops are ALREADY getting with the Pentagon budget.

[pokercat999]

24. Bullshit they could shut down the govt until the troops

are withdrawn. This is an illegal war and anyone that supports it is a war criminal.....period. There is no action that the congress can take, to stop the american war in Iraq, that would be excessive.

[RedSock]

132. AMEN!!!!!

Pokercat999 said:
"This is an illegal war and anyone that supports it is a war criminal.....period."


AMEN!!!!!

[John Q. Citizen]

25. Either that, or just quit funding the illegal occupation! They need zero votes to do that.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

49. Well boo-hoo-hoo! Not that lame excuse again

Here's what the Dems need to do: Draft a "get out of Iraq now" bill and keep submitting it every week if necessary. Go back to their constituents and tell them to lobby the laggards.

And none of these wimpy "We'll keep funding the war for the time being" bills. Pass funding that is to be used ONLY to bring the troops home.

Keep passing it until the Busheviks get the message. Wanna bet that when the Dems show some GUTS, the laggards will belatedly leap onto the bandwagon?

Why should anyone join a bandwagon of wimps?

[Javaman]

114. Exactly my thoughts.

This wait till september bullshit has got to stop now.

[ProudDad]

118. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG

only need 51 in the Senate and 218 in the House to NOT continue to re-fund bush's occupation of Iraq...

[Ian David]

5. Shame on the Iraqis for not bouncing-back after we destroyed their entire infrastructure...

system of government, and social order.

Hopefully, the next country we destroy will be more resilient and upbeat about the whole thing.

[opiate69]

7. No shit!

Gods, I hate the whole "blame the Iraqis" mindset...

[MGKrebs]

10. Gods I hate the 'take no responsibility" mindset.

[opiate69]

12. So the Iraqis should take responsibility for fixing what we fucked up?

[IndianaGreen]

56. Hillary is blaming the rape victim for the rape!

It is the Iraqis' fault for their failure to accept Jesus!

[ninkasi]

67. That's what it boils down to...

How many Americans would welcome an invading army which brutalized and tortured, and killed, American citizens? Would we be considered to be at fault for trying to oust an illegal occupation? The way some people think is downright scary. They'll justify anything, as long as it's for the "greater good", of the US.

I'm a human being before I'm an American. This doesn't mean that I don't love my country, it means that citizenship usually is an accident of birth. Iraqi citizens didn't elect to be born in a country that a sociopath would seek to destroy, just so he could be a "war president."

Some of us can feel the anguish of what the citizens of Iraq feel when they see their country bombed into rubble, and when they see their family members, and friends, lost to the ever increasing violence. Some of us see, and feel, the anguish of Americans who lose those they love in a war to secure profits for the cronies of the Bush administration.

Some of us can see the real pain, and some wouldn't care even if they did see it. Those are the people who vote Republic.

[MGKrebs]

101. What is your solution? n/t

[MGKrebs]

72. We did fuck Iraq up, but we can't fix it by ourselves.

[opiate69]

107. I'm of the belief that WE can't fix it at all..

American forces and diplomats will forever be seen as occupiers by Iraqis.. my suggestion is for * to go to the UN, say "we screwed up..I'm sorry.. please help us rectify this".. then, draw American troops out and replace them with a REAL iternational team of military, diplomatic, economic, political and engineering experts.

[MGKrebs]

109. No matter who does it, if the Iraqis ain't buyin', it ain't gonna happen.

I hate that they have to be responsible- at least somewhat- for getting squared away again, but that is the reality, isn't it?

[Phredicles]

22. Yeah, this is the sort of thing that lends credence to the "* in drag" slam;

I mean, Caesar Disgustus (<Thanks, TahitiNut!) is on record as wondering why the Eye-rackies aren't more gratitudinous, too.:eyes:

[trashcanistanista]

88. Me too!

I hate this kind of reasoning more than I hate the fact that she wants to leave a contingency force there which I really, really hate. This is a straight repug talking point and it is shameful to hear it out of a dems mouth.

[otohara]

9. We Made Them Number "Two"

in most unstable countries in the entire world.

Mission Accomplished! :toast: :nuke: :toast:

Washington: Iraq now ranks as the second-most unstable country in the world, ahead of war-ravaged or poverty-stricken nations such as Somalia, Afghanistan, Haiti and North Korea, according to the 2007 Failed State index issued by Foreign Policy magazine and the Fund for Peace.

Despite billions of dollars in foreign aid, and the presence of more than 150,000 American troops, Iraq has been on a steady decline over the past three years, according to the index. It ranked fourth last year, but its score dropped in almost all of the 12 political, economic, security and social indicators on which the index is based. "The report tells us that Iraq is sinking fast," said Fund for Peace President Pauline Baker.

"We believe it's reached the point of no return. We have recommended - based on studies done every six months since the US invasion - that the administration face up to the reality that the only choices for Iraq are how and how violently it will break up. http://www.gulfnews.com/region/Iraq/10133677.html

[Phredicles]

19. Wait, we created a bigger clusterfuck than North Korea?

Well, that IS something to be proud of.:cry:

[ProudDad]

119. What's your thing with North Korea???

:shrug:

From the article -- I know reading is hard but...

"Sudan, largely because of the humanitarian catastrophe in Darfur, is the world's most unstable country."

[JNelson6563]

82. Yeah, bunch of slackers that they are!

:sarcasm:

[november3rd]

8. Feeding Godzilla

Everybody hates a monster in the living room. You feel like you have to walk on eggshells and wait on the beast hand and foot or, who knows, you could be the next item on the menu for "Spot's" dinner.

Feeding the military behemoth is the new form of co-dependency/enabling being pioneered by the American people and their representatives.

"Don't criticize! It might make them angry!"

After all, if we don't give away the whole island to Dr. Moreau, he might turn us into monkeys, too.

Close the Pentagon. Peace Now. End Fascism.

--Americans Anonymous

[killermedic]

17. Criticize the real culprits!

When was the last time the american military waged war on it's own citizens? You want to end fascism, do you? Well what the hell do you think the military did during WW2 and Nazi Germany? The Military is designed to break things and kill people, not to be the bearers of flower bonnets and free-love tents.You blame the military for this war but want to praise the politicians who are responsible for the break-down in diplomacy therein securing the jobs of our service-members. wake up and smell the knee-deep poop your shoveling. Any person with even a smidgen of intellect and brains is going to know that Hillary and all the others we voted in are as responsible for that blank check to * as are the others who will now do nothing but filibuster and campaign instead of drafting new progressive laws and ideology.

[otherlander]

44. I don't think anyone here blames the troops.

It's the politicians in Washington who have callously thrown American lives away because of their own greed. And they've also destroyed an entire nation, and so it's not exactly fair to say, "Why haven't the Iraqis built a stable government?" It's like repeatedly hitting someone with a brick, and then yelling, "WHY AREN'T YOU STANDING UP?"

When was the last time the american military waged war on it's own citizens? I guess about 38 years ago, for 2 weeks at Berkeley. Not sure what that has to do with Iraq, though.

[killermedic]

47. The National Guard

....Under the supervision of the govenor! Again not the uniformed services but corrupt politicians! Thank you for proving my point!!!! We are constatnly at war with our own elected representatives on both sides of the aisle. It is time to blame the politicians for what they have done instead of the people who act honorably under intense and violent situations to preserve our liberty and offer other cultures a choice for liberty.

[Zhade]

98. Uh, bullshit. Killing Iraqis is not defending any of our freedoms.

They weren't under attack from the Iraqi government.

Your post makes sense otherwise, but let's not pretend the military grants us our freedoms or has actually protected them since WWII.

[killermedic]

103. Ok lets pretend!!!

I never said the military grants anything. read next time! I simply rebutted the point that the military is not to blame for Iraq like so many people here at DU like to accuse them of. I stated that the politicians (*, Hillary,etc)failed at their jobs and therefore they send the military to get involved. I then pointed out that the military is simply the muscle for the executive branch as was evidenced at Berkley CA. And yes by "killing iraqis" they are defending our freedoms especially those we use to get to work. I ride my bike to work, how about you! This has everything to do with every single Democrat that we sent to Washington last year on the "pull the troops" ticket and now for some reason they are not to blame. I get flustered when time after time, the people who are to blame i.e. the politicians are given a pass because they are for some reason allowed to lie to us and get away with it. But we hold our fighting men and women accoutable for the failed policies and disasters in diplomacy that our elected officials create. I wish this were the pretend part!

[Tyler Durden]

116. Don't think much, do you?

NOBODY here is holding troops responsible for Iraq. Maybe some GENERALS, but not the forces.

I don't hear a single word out of you regarding the lying bastards that really got us there.

By the way, Welcome and enjoy your short stay.

HM1 Doc "J"

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ebayfool]

141. Shorter stay than he thought it was gonna be, wasn't it?

Dumbass didn't have the sense to use a different name or rant than his freeper id:dunce:. Troll trainers need a 'No Troll Left Behind Act' - DU deserves smarter trolls than this! :rofl:

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Megahurtz]

178. Sorry To Burst Your Bubble

but I think most people here are already criticizing the real culprits.
Who said anything about the Troops??? :think:

[TheWatcher]

11. "The American military has succeeded,"

Succeeded AT WHAT, dear Hillary?

This is an illegal, unjustified occupation that was based on lies and profiteering, and should have never been fought to begin with. You voted for it, and you would vote for it again.

Please, America, DO NOT let this happen.

[killermedic]

16. careful who you blame for the screw up in the ME

The soldiers have succeeded in following through in their part of the war. Our troops are second to none when it comes to their professional duties sans the Abu Ghraib types. We need to place the blame on those who sent and are now paying for the war in Iraq. Hillary voted to send the troops and has also voted to continue to fund the troops to the tune of what amounts to a blank check to the *whitehouse. Our soldiers have done their jobs and it is the politicians who are riding their proverbial coattails.

[IndianaGreen]

59. "Our soldiers have done their jobs," Not according to Pentagon!

If they had done their jobs, they would be allowed to come home to their loved ones after being discharged, or there would be no need to keep them on active duty going on one combat tour after the other. It is clear they haven't done their jobs! Why else would the Pentagon say that they are going to extend the tours for those already in Iraq? :sarcasm:

This is an endless mission. Our troops can't get out even if they wanted to. Politicians from both parties are talking about keeping a "residual force" in Iraq in perpetuity, which means that the war will continue to go on and on for decades to come.

In 1917 the Russian army threw their weapons down and returned home to settle scores with the Tsar that had send them into battle.

[killermedic]

78. your right!

However As I stated onanother post....we need to stop the occupation of Germany, Japan, Bosnia, Kosovo, Korea etc. Anytime the politicians fail at their diplomacy, it is the soldiers(usually from the lower classes of our society)who have to pick up the guantlet and go to war. The idea of a permanent contingent in Iraq isn't a new one, considering we are still occupying every other country we have ever invaded. At this point, knowing how angry the rest of the world is with us, I hope we will not have to quit the war and go knocking on the House of Representatives door or the Senate Chambers. Every black eye we have given will be returned ten-fold.

[eridani]

54. They "succeeded" at curing the patient's migraine by chopping off his head. n/t

[trashcanistanista]

89. Colbert was right the other night

when he called it the war against the war on terror. The war on terror at home. This is THE issue, Hillary has a lot of catching up to do. She has clearly missed the boat on this.

edited to say it is becoming the war against the war against the war on terror!

[BringBigDogBack]

13. She should make up her mind

that would at least help a little bit.

[BigDDem]

15. Code Pink??

Did they finally wind down the wine and cheese party on
Nancy Pelosi's driveway?

Come on Hillary, snap your fingers and end the war, NOW!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. At least Code Pink stands for something

Hillary stands for whatever she thinks will make the rich and powerful like her.

[ShortnFiery]

71. Roger that: A good part of me respects true republicans more - you KNOW where they stand!

But I don't trust HRC to run a bowling alley on the night shift. Not because she lacks intelligence and savvy, but because she'll stab ANYBODY in the back in order to glean an ounce of increased political power. :grr:

[BigDDem]

167. What's your definition of rich?

[Moochy]

169. HRC Net rots

Ahh the hyperpartisans are out to defend her shifting the blame bullshit. It's a bipartisan burden, the war. We must end it, not extend it, or milk it for more future empty half-promises sold in back rooms by milqeutoaste charicatures of democratic leadership to a military industrial complex that calls the shots, and pays the bills. (and hills)

[benny05]

18. To Get a Clearer Picture of what Happened at TBA

Go here: http://commonsense.ourfuture.org/what_boos_were_about

[Moochy]

170. "As if the Iraqis invaded and occupied themselves."

Good link, to encourage others to follow, excerpts:

That's flat wrong. The Politics on the Hudson blog gets it right: “They jeered the Democratic presidential hopeful when she blamed the Iraqi government for the continued violence that has bogged down U.S. troops.”

See the video for yourself, go to 23 minutes and 38 seconds into her remarks.

[youngdem]

20. Shut up Hillary. You voted for this fucking quagmire

And it blew up in your DLC, Repuke lite face, so deal with it.

Now, you try to act as though you have been for withdrawal the whole time, when really all you are is a pro-war Dem who's trying to play both sides for political gain.

Save it. You are simply a DLC stooge, and a darling of the pro-war, pro-Israel lobby because for some reason some people who support you cannot bring themselves to realize this fact.

With Dems like you, who needs Republicans?

[BrokenBeyondRepair]

26. word

[killermedic]

27. YEHAW

That is what I have been saying all along.....it is those whom we voted for that are now giving us the lumpy with no vaseline!!! WE are the majority on the Hillyet our representatives do nothing to forward our cause!!! I appreciate and magnify the anger you expressed. We need to get angry at those who take our votes and our will for granted. GIT SOME YOUNGDEM!!!!!!!

[Maribelle]

36. Hillary voted for a quagmire?

Oh please, give me a break.

[Jacobin]

42. Actually, she did

And she pretends that "if it were done correctly" (the illegal invasion, that is) that things would be hunky dorey....that the Iraqis would have loved us for blowing up their country, torturing their fellow countrymen, and occupying them.

She voted for this idiocy in the face of WORLD outrage, the refusal of the UN to sanction it and tens of millions marching in the streets to try to stop it.

[Maribelle]

48. No she didn't vote for a quagmire

You’re alleging prophetic powers against her. And if it were done correctly, it would have more closely resembled Kosovo, and desposing of Milosevic. Did we blow up that country? Did we hang Milo or shoot any of his family members? Were we the uncivilized murdering thugs then that we are today, our America????

Hillary voted for allowing Bush to use force against Saddam, not knowing then how the entire administration including the CIA the Pentagon and the Justice Department were corrupted by Bush and bent on a deception of the greatest magnitude against our Congress. But starting in 2003 Hillary voiced outrage against the direction of the Bush administration's Iraq policy and even in 2003 she called Bush's abilities "failed leadership".

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. Everybody knew it was going to be a quagmire.

Shit, even Dick Cheney knew it was gonig to be a quagmire.

""I think we got it right, both when we decided to expel him from Kuwait, but also when the president made the decision that we'd achieved our objectives and we were not going to go get bogged down in the problems of trying to take over and govern Iraq."

-Dick Cheney, 1992.

[Jacobin]

52. thank you

those who pretend that an illegal invasion of a country on a pretext to steal their oil resources 'could have ended up well' do not get my vote or support.

[Maribelle]

127. However, stealing their oil resources was not the pretext.

The pretext was WMDs, the made-up excuse, the misleading reason given in an attempt to conceal the real reason.

And their pretext is was finalized their standing as the "most corrupt administration in the history of the United States".

[fightthegoodfightnow]

138. And Yet Even after the Farce of WMD was Disclosed

............Clinton kept up the war mantra.

[Red1]

161. ?

Pretty global statement.

Exactly when was the legitimate time for recognizing their were no WMD?

Exactly when after that did Senator Clinton say that it was irrelevant?

Just the facts please.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

163. These are the Facts

Hillary voted to continue funding of the war in Iraq as recently as two months ago.
Hillary voted to continue funding of the war in Iraq that enabled Bush to *increase* troop levels in Iraq.
Hillary voted to continue funding of the war in Iraq with no deadline for troop removal.
Hillary voted to continue funding of the war in Iraq as Bush had requested.

Had Enough America?

[eridani]

58. We blew up a lot of Serbia's infrastructure, and never deposed Milosevic

We left a permanent military base, Camp Bondsteel, which was one of the goals, along with forced privatization, exactly as we are doing with Iraq.

At the time of the destruction of Serbian infrastructure (which miraculously was able to blow up worker or state owned factories and completely miss those owned in part by foreign interests), the Serbian parliament had a 2/3 majority opposed to Milosevic which was unable to unite to form an alternative government. They were getting sick and tired of the way Milosevic was handling the Kosovo situation, and proposed a plan to run it as a UN mandate.

Clinton ignored this option, and demanded that Serbia open itself to complete NATO occupation and put up all its state owned assets for sale to private interests. What did those two conditions have to do with preventing ethnic cleansing, I ask you? (Which, by the way, never occured until after the NATO bomobing, and was intended to be revenge for it.)

The opposition parties were eventually able to depose Milosevic, but none of the successor governments approved of the US and Western European rape of their economy. And the majority Albanian population of Kosovo has just about completely succeeded in their ethnic cleansing (begun under Nazi control in WW II) of its Serb, Jewish and Rom minorities.

[Maribelle]

73. Ethnic cleansing in Kosovo never occurred until after the NATO bombing?

What?

Are you trying to indicate that Milosevic did nothing against the people of Kosovo prior to NATO bombing? There were no Rambouillet accords? Milosevic did not receive clear instructions that he must withdraw forces from Kosovo?

Milosevic was a crazed monster that even Russia could not stop. He flagrantly lied to the world all the while he was building a demented war machine to destroy the ethnic Albanians of Kosovo.

NATO air strikes in Yugoslavia started March 24, 1999. Prior to that date Milosevic forces amassed in Kosovo were torching villages, killing thousands, driving tens of thousands out of the county. Kosovo was embroiled in a full scale war by 1998 and thousands of “ethnic Albanians” were homeless. The exodus of refugees was taking place months before the bombing began.

It was the increasingly irrationality of Milosevic which struck terrorizing fear into the hearts of Kosovo's ethnic Albanians thus dramatically increasing the exodus after the bombing started. They knew what he did their kind in Bosnia.

[eridani]

106. What he did before the bombing was vicious police repression

--a tactic that the anti-Milosevic majority in the Serbian parliament saw plainly was counterproductive. Quit bullshitting about the "instructions" Milosevic received, will you? Rambouillet included stopping the repression in Kosovo, but also selling off all state or worker owned enterprises in Serbia proper and agreeing to complete military occupation of all of Serbia by NATO. You still haven't mentioned exactly what the last two demands have to do with ethnic cleansing.

Why are you persisting in ignoring that the ethnic cleansing that was actually going on in Kosovo was being directed by the drug-running, Al Qaeda linked KLA, whose victims were Serbs, Jews, and Rom? The response to that by Milosevic was like what we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan--brute force repression, which was stupid and counterproductive as well as being vicious. He also revoked a lot of the local autonomy that Kosovo had had under Tito. The far more sensible Serbian Parliament wanted to respond by turning the administration of Kosovo over to the UN--what's your problem with that?

Milosevic was a thug, but he was no more of a crazed monster than his counterparts in Croatia (Tudjman) and Bosnia (Itzbegovic), who were both Hitler allies in WW II and cheerfully collaborated in the Nazi and Ustashe elimination ot 500,000 Serbs.

What you are doing here is playing the corporate elite game of selective outrage. Of the three nationalist thugs, Milosevic was selected for demonization not because he was the worst of them, but because he was the most recalcitrant about submitting to the corporate New World Order race to the bottom.

You don't give a flying fuck about the Krajina--you probably don't even know what happened there, just as you probably don't know that Garcia of Peru didn't renew the licenses of some TV and radio stations there recently but probably do know all about Chavez in Venezuela not renewing one license.

Round three--selective outrage!

After Western Europe and the US encouraged the breakup of Yugoslavia, the better to cram corporate globalization down the throats of its remnants, Croatia had a major province, the Krajina, which was majority Serb. Those Serbs harassed their internal Croatian minority, which brought down major repression from the overall majority Croatian state. Serbia had a major province, Kosovo, which was majority Albanian. Those Albanians harassed their internal Serb, Jewish and Rom minorities, which brought down major repression from the overall majority Serbian state.

And the US response to these nearly identical situations was what, exactly? US mercenaries (you know, those Blackwater assholes who do most of the torturing in Iraq) assisted Croatia in the complete ethnic cleansing of the Krajina, displacing ~100,000 and killing 5-10,0000 outright. But the US destroyed a great deal of Serbian infrastructure for unfulfilled plans to do the same in Kosovo. and the vast majority of internally displaced people in the former Yugoslavia happen to be Serbian.

Mass murder and ethnic cleansing in the Krajina = good.
Mass murder and ethnic cleansing in Kosovo = bad.

See how that works?

I'm not forgetting Bosnia--the war there was started by the US ambassador. The Lisbon agreement, which set out spheres of ethnic influence very similar to what we eventually wound up with in the Dayton agreement, was all set to go, lacking only Itzbegovic's signature (Croatians and Serbians in Bosnia had already agreed to it), when the US ambassador told him not to sign it.

Lisbon agreement = Dayton agreement without all the bloodshed. Your reason why we should have opposed it is what, exactly?

[Maribelle]

122. What Milosevic did before the bombing was called the vicious killing of a large number of people,

This is not the place, nor do I care to rehash the sectarian violence that nearly obliterated the balkins after USSR control, nor do I have selective outrage over the atrocities committed there, nor am I disillusioned that anything I post could change your opinion on the events that occurred there.

I used Kosovo as an example of what could have been expected in the United States disposal of Saddam, instead of the fiasco which Bush created with his Iraqi quagmire.

But just for the record, President Clinton did not demand that Serbia open itself to complete NATO occupation. Ramouillet did in fact maintain the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the FRY, and it did demand that Milosevic must withdraw his forces as indicated.

http://www.state.gov/www/regions/eur/ksvo_rambouillet_text.html


Operation Horseshoe - the meticulously-planned objective to ethnically cleanse Kosovo and remove the whole Albanian population devised and implemented by Milo the crazed monster

[eridani]

176. The plan was attempted AFTER the NATO bombing

And the exact same plan by Croatia was implemented against the Krajina with US mercenary assistance. Why no problems with that?

Also--look at the economic issues section. Where the fucking hell does any country get off telling any other country how it is to arrange its economy under pain of having the shit bombe out of it?

[CRH]

124. Excellent post, the KLA was also sponsored by the CIA, ...

most fans of the Clinton/Albright foreign policy don't like to admit that little fact.

[Maribelle]

125. They don't?

You are so mistaken.

In fact, supporting the KLA was a key to it all.

[CRH]

128. I'm not sure I follow you, ...

you are saying I am mistaken that those who were fans of the Clinton Administration foreign policy don't suppress their support of the Bin Laden al Qaeda backed KLA, at the same time they were supposedly hunting for al Qaeda and Bin Laden for the embassy bombings and other acts of terrorism?

I don't think I have ever seen a post here or on other sites that Clintonites have voluntarily acknowledged their foreign policy supported al Qaeda backed terrorism.

[Maribelle]

130. You're not sure you're following yourself ...

The KLA was a small albanian terrorist organization not tied to religious fanatics, but receiving funding and supplies from the european black market. Germany has recently admitted they were funding the KLA.

They were supported and used by NATO and the Clinton Administration to fight Milo's Operation Horseshoe. When the war was over they were disarmed and disbanned.

The part about al qaeda and bin laden is made up.

[CRH]

159. your tone is arrogant, and the facts do not support your contention, ...

Was all this made up?

http://www.balkanpeace.org/index.php?index=article&articleid=12224

he Wall Street Journal Europe, November 01, 2001
Al Qaeda's Balkan Links
November 1, 2001

by Marcia Christoff Kurop

== excerpt begins ==

o where was the U.S. in all this? It was not until 1995 that the
Clinton administration was forced to start pursuing the Islamist
network in the Balkans. Not quite a month after the Dayton accords had
been signed in November 1995, an influx of Iranian arms came into
Bosnia with the apparent tacit approval of the administration, in
violation of U.N. sanctions. While publicly pressing Bosnian President
Alia Izebegovic to purge remaining Islamist elements, the
administration was loath to confront Sarajevo and Tehran over their
presence.

Instead, Islamist groups went quietly underground as the windfall of
weapons landed in their hands. They later joined up with a new Islamist
center in Sofia established as a kind of rear guard by the al Zawahiri.
Following the Zagreb arrest and extradition of renowned Egyptian
militant Faud Qassim, an al Zawahiri favorite, the Sofia-based
militants planned the deployment in Bosnia of terrorists capable of
planning and leading possible major terrorist strikes against U.S. and
SFOR facilities, according to al Fadl's testimony to the House Task
Force on Terrorism.

Islamist infiltration of the Kosovo Liberation Army advanced,
meanwhile. Bin Laden is said to have visited Albania in 1996 and 1997,
according to the murder-trial testimony of an Algerian-born French
national, Claude Kader, himself an Afghanistan-trained mujahideen
fronting at the Albanian-Arab Islamic Bank. He recruited some Albanians
to fight with the KLA in Kosovo, according to the Paris-based
Observatoire Geopolitique des Drogues.

== end excerpt ==

== further down same article ==

Nonetheless, the 25,000 strong KLA continued to receive official
NATO/U.S. arms and training support and, at the talks in Rambouillet,
France, then Secretary of State Madeleine Albright shook hands with
"freedom fighter" Hashim Thaci, a KLA leader. As this was taking place,
Europol (the European Police Organization based in The Hague) was
preparing a scathing report on the connection between the KLA and
international drug gangs. Even Robert Gelbard, America's special envoy
to Bosnia, officially described the KLA as Islamic terrorists.

== end excerpt ==

*** other links to the Balkan wars and al Qaeda ***

http://www.balkanpeace.org/our/our09.shtml

== and then there is this ==

Confirmed by German Network TV:

German Intelligence and the CIA supported

Al Qaeda sponsored Terrorists in Yugoslavia
www.globalresearch.ca   20 February 2005

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BEH502A.html

Both the CIA and German intelligence (BND) supported the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), a terrorist organization with links to Al Qaeda. 

This report by the German TV ZDF Network, reviewed  by Mira Beham, is revealing in many regards.

First the report corroborates earlier analysis on the role of the BND and the CIA in supporting the KLA, several years prior as well as in the wake of the 1999 bombing of Yugoslavia.

Second, it further documents and confirms the KLA's links to Al Qaeda and the role of the latter in the Kosovo conflict:

NIN, Belgrade, Serbia, Serbia-Montenegro November 25, 2004

WHEN INTELLIGENCE OFFICERS FAN FLAMES

German ZDF television presents serious accusations against German intelligence (BND) in relation to the March  "pogroms"  directed against the Serb population in Kosovo.

by Mira Beham

Schmidt-Eenboom also reminds of the history of cooperation between the BND and the KLA: "What German journalists and their Dutch colleagues at VPRO Radio Television investigated has a long tradition. Since the beginning of the 1990s the BND has maintained contacts with the KLA, which was then considered to be a terrorist organization. Although we have to admit that the KLA has stronger ties with the CIA than the BND. Commander Hoxha had ties with the CIA, the BND and with the Austrian military intelligence service which has devoted great attention to this region and has very good connections with the KLA."

--and this too--

Albanian rebel veterans reportedly organized March riots Kosovo

Radio B92 text web site, Belgrade, in English 1418 GMT 20 Nov 04

Text of report in English by Belgrade-based Radio B92 text web site on 20 November

Vienna, 20 November 2004

The March protests that turned into acts of violence against Kosovo Serbs were planned a long time before they occurred, according to Samedin Dzezairi Xhesairi , an Austrian citizen who worked for the BND, the German Intelligence Agency.

Dzezairi said that prior to the riots he had constantly been warning officials that "the situation in Kosovo could take a turn for the radical, and all that was needed was one spark to ignite the explosion".

According to Dzezairi, who has been linked to working with the American CIA as well, an organization of veterans and former members of the Kosovo Liberation Army KLA, UCK in Albanian were responsible for planning the March riots. This same organization organized the demonstrations against UNMIK UN Mission in Kosovo prior to the riots.

== and though this person has later denied any involvement with any intelligence organization, there is this ==

published by Kosovo Albanian newspaper Koha Ditore on 22 November 2004

Prizren, 21 November 2004: The German media have called him (Samidin Xhezairi, alias Hoxha) an informer of the German (Federal) Intelligence Service ( BND) , as well as a person linked to Al-Qa'idah and the CIA. In the meantime, he says that he is working on the production of the first cartoon in the Albanian language, as well as on filming the first Albanian-language natural science documentary on birds and butterflies.

There are also some assertions that he has fought in Chechnya, has trained in Afghanistan, and was a commander of a unit of mujahidin who operated in the region of Tetove (Tetovo) in summer 2001.

According to a confidential NATO report from 2002 quoted by the media, Xhezairi's task is to erect a branch of "God's Army" (Hezbollah) in Kosova (Kosovo), while his telephone number was also found among the confiscated documents of identified members of Al-Qa'idah.

[Megahurtz]

180. Good Posts Too, CRH!

:applause:

[Megahurtz]

179. eridani, Thank You For Your Posts!

:bounce:

[fightthegoodfightnow]

137. HELLO.............Do You Read the Papers?

Starting in 2003?

Give me a break.........in 2007 she voted to continue funding of the war that has resulted in an increase in troops in Iraq !!!

Just a little reality check on your historical revisionism.

[eridani]

55. There is a "right way" to destroy a country and steal their resources?

I'll bet she never urged Chelsea to beat up second graders for their lunch money and be careful to do it the right way instead of the wrong way.

[Maccagirl]

84. You didn't answer Maribelle's post

about ethnic cleansing before the NATO bombing.

[maryallen]

108. What would you call it, maribelle?

A war crime it what it's becoming.

[Maribelle]

123. Hillary voted to disarm and dispose Saddam, she did not vote for the quagmire Bush has made of it

I would like to see a war crimes trial for Bush and Cheney at Den Haag.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

146. Hillary Clinton Voted to CONTINUE Funding This War

........and to allow the President to *INCREASE* troop levels with *NO* restrictions on when we should pull out as recently as TWO MONTHS AGO.

She is MORE OF THE SAME.

It's time for a change.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

164. Nah.....Hillary Voted to Fund the Most Unpopular War in American History

Nah.....Hillary Voted to Fund the Most Unpopular War in American History

Hillary voted to continue funding of the war in Iraq as recently as two months ago.
Hillary voted to continue funding of the war in Iraq that enabled Bush to *increase* troop levels in Iraq.
Hillary voted to continue funding of the war in Iraq with no deadline for troop removal.
Hillary voted to continue funding of the war in Iraq as Bush had requested.

Had Enough America?

[leQ]

37. ^5 (eom)

[arewenotdemo]

53. A-fucking-men.

[PassingFair]

60. Word UP!

We NEED AL GORE!

No one else can pull the country together.

[ckramer]

21. The American military has succeeded in carrying out a failed

foreign policy and destroyed a perfectly stable beautiful country in the process.


Hillary, boooooooo!

[Alexander]

28. Great. Another Hubert Humphrey.

Another reason I won't be supporting her in the primaries.

[endarkenment]

31. Who is leading who here?

Clinton has not lead on this issue at all. Instead she voted for it several times. Only when it became clear that her pro-war stance was a political liability did she discover an opposition to the war. That is not leadership.

Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act, 2005: Clinton YES
Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act, 2006: Clinton YES

Suddenly the tide shifts and Senator Clinton is voting against the war in 2007. I welcome her to the right side of this issue, but she is not leading.

[montanto]

90. There it is!

[fightthegoodfightnow]

136. EXACTLY -Too Little...Too Late

Hillary took us to war.
Hillary never apologized for taking us to war.
Hillary continues to fund the war.


.......and *NOW* she thinks Bush's handling of the war was bad??????????

Where was she?

[ima_sinnic]

32. just go away, Hillary. you are a disgrace.

I absolutely cannot stomach the thought of 4 or (omg--save me!) 8 years of her style of "leadership."

it is more like "leadershit" in her case. It comes out after agonizing years of straining and stinks to high heaven.

[BigDDem]

34. Kucinich '08

Good luck with that!

[DrFunkenstein]

33. What Else Will The Military "Succeed" At During A Clinton Presidency?

I have yet to see any indication that Clinton II will not remain hawkish to bolster her personal credentials.

I am saddened that I have waited so long for a formidable female candidate only to be so disappointed when one finally came around.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

35. CLINTON -TOO LITTLE TOO LATE

*NOW* she wanst to be a 'leader' ?

Clinton has been soooo disappointing in standing up to the right on the war.

It took her forever to even embrace the notion of getting out of this war.

I have no idea why the right loathes her. She is one of them.

She's now following the pack and denouncing this war.

Where was her voice in the last four years?

[Maribelle]

39. Sure blame Hillary ...

Whatever you do, don't blame the lazy democrats for not doing what needed to be done in many states such as Florida and Ohio for the 2000 and 2004 presidential elections.

Blame Hillary for the worst lying president ever and his corrupt rubber stamp republicans, it's all her falut.

[superconnected]

41. What has she done to stop the bushys?

Everytime she acts like she's going to do something, we find out it's lip service and she joins them.

So yeah, it is hillarious' fault. And Pelosi is guilty too.

Al gore was terrible at campaigning. He really would say what ever people wanted to hear. The problem was the next stop they'd want to hear something else so he came off as totally insincere everytime he opened his mouth. Frankenstein - john monotonous Kerry ... he was awful too.

Hillary is just another lously choice that won't stand her ground. How can you stand behind someone that keeps backstepping?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

I've Gone Back and Forth

I have supported Hillary in the past >>>>SIMPLY<<<< because she *pissed* off so many cons, but I got to tell you that the time to support her has passed. She *MISSED* it and she *MISSED* the point and in so doing she showed her true colors. (God, I hate how that sounds sooo neocon.)

ENOUGH ALREADY...........move on................ HILLARY is the past and another exhibit A of all that is SICKO in America!!

It's time to reclaim our future.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

63. What............an Apologist for Hillary?

Give me a break !!!

When will Democrats start to control the agenda (rather than support it as Hilary did)?????

I was *DELIGHTED* when the Dems took control of not only one but both houses of Congress, but they have been a very weak anti-acid pill compared to the gas that is being released in the body politic.

It's pathetic that while I was hopeful of seeing a woman in the White House in my lifetime that the only one likely to do that is someone who ............... *SUPPORTED*................. this war rather than stand up against it.

[Maribelle]

74. Call me whatever you want ...

Democrats will start to control the agenda when grassroot-democrats do the work that needs to be done to give congress enough power in votes to get the job done.

The percentage of registered democrats that turn out to vote is deplorable.

Bashing Hillary and other democratic candidates for the failures of grassroot democrats will not improve the situation.

I love Edwards.

But all of the current candidates in the democratic debate would do a far superior job on their worst days than Bush and his most-corrupt administration has done on their best days.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

104. Bashing Clinton?

Right....you don't want to bash Democratic presidential candidates..........just grassroots Democrats.

Paaaleezzeee.

[Maribelle]

129. Controlling the agenda will happen when grassroot democrats elect enough to congress

Hostile comments against Hillary for this is simply ignorant.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

133. Nonsense

You bait the 'grassroots' movement and then you snap because they don't support your idea of a 'good' candidate.

Tell you what: when 'grassroots' democrats stand up, it won't be for Hillary.

Get a clue.

Grassroots democrats are numb from politicians like Hilllary.

Three years ago, I was supporting her, campaigning for her, praying that she would lead this nation, but she has been a SORRY disappointment.

Characterizing me as ignorant for her lack of leadership on the war in Iraq is simply childish.

[Maribelle]

142. I love Edwards

However, each of the current democratic candidates for president would be a significant and welcomed improvement over the most corrupt administration in this nation's history. While I would love for the 'grassroots' movement to overwhelmingly support Edwards to lead this nation , I will vote for whomever wins the Democratic nomination.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

That being said, I would recommend that you attempt to focus on the subject you posted that I responded to.

My response clearly stated "hostile comments against Hillary for this"

(1) can you figure out what I meant by for this ? Here's a hint: When will Democrats start to control the agenda

(2) do you understand that calling hostile comments against Hillary for this ignorant, as I did, is not characterizing you as anything,
nothing, nada. I truly am not interested in "characterizing" you as anything.

Hillary was not elected to control any agenda. Hillary was not elected to lead this nation. Grassroots democrats in forty nine states have not had the chance to vote for or to not vote for her, yet. Hillary was elected by the voters of New York to represent them in the Senate, and that's to whom she needs to answer , for now. Even though wingnuts would like each and every position in the congress to be "national", they are not. Hillary does not have to answer to the voters in forty nine states as the fanatical right would like people to believe.

Hillary, however, does need to attempt to persuade the voters in forty nine states to chose her to lead the nation and perhaps love her as much as they do in New York.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

145. Reality Check

Look anyone who whines about the 'grassroots democrats' not electing Democrats to control the agenda in Congress who HERSELF voted to re-elect a Republican to Congress lacks credibility in arguing there should be democratic unity in supporting democratic candidates.

GET A CLUE: Hillary Clinton is a *PRESIDENTIAL* candidate and doesn't get a free pass merely because she is a Democrat. You should know this, since you said 'I voted to reelect a republican to the house."

[Maribelle]

149. You're logic is what needs a reality check

lol

Even a random one would service your needs.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

150. Democrats Should NOT Unite Around Hillary when There are Still Options

Maribelle ...I noticed how you were unable to articulate a single line of reasoning in response to my post which was:

Look anyone who whines about the 'grassroots democrats' not electing Democrats to control the agenda in Congress who HERSELF voted to re-elect a Republican to Congress lacks credibility in arguing there should be democratic unity in supporting democratic candidates.

GET A CLUE: Hillary Clinton is a *PRESIDENTIAL* candidate and doesn't get a free pass merely because she is a Democrat. You should know this, since you said 'I voted to reelect a republican to the house."

Give it another try....but this time....try debating or responding to the post

[Maribelle]

152. I did respond

You are just too logically deprived to understand it.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

134. Get Real: We Elected a Democratic Congress

........and for that.........we get a Congress that allows the White House to *INCREASE* troop levels in Iraq.

Everyone of these sorry folks should be put on notice.........they are next to get booted out of office!!!

[Maribelle]

143. We???

I voted to reelect a republican to the house.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

144. No Wonder You Support Hillary

:bounce: :crazy: :silly: :dunce: :grr: :thumbsdown: :puke:

[Maribelle]

151. Perhaps

[fightthegoodfightnow]

156. Perhaps You and Hillary Should Change Parties

......if you are seeking to have a Presidential candidate who supports continued funding of this war and who you think should be immune from public comment or criticism merely because they are a member of a certain political party. I hear that line of reasoning goes well with the GOP.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

158. This from Someone Who Voted to Reelect a GOP Candidate to Congress

Here's the money quote: "Democrats will start to control the agenda when grassroot-democrats do the work that needs to be done to give congress enough power in votes to get the job done."

This from Someone Who Voted to Reelect a GOP Candidate to Congress

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[montanto]

91. wow

now criticism is blame? To question Hillary is to make her completely responsible for *?? all lazy dems are responsible, Hillary is one of them, running for prez, too, and we don't get to be critical? o.k., i'll shut up now and in 08 sign whatever they put in front of me.

out

[Maribelle]

126. I do not consider lying about anyone to be "criticism"

Nor do I consider implying a nontruth to be "criticism".

Perhaps I'm old-fashion.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

153. These are the Facts

Hillary Clinton voted to *CONTINUE* funding this war as recently as two months ago.
Hillary Clinton's vote enabled the President to *INCREASE* troop levels with no exit strategy.

Perhaps you want a Democratic Presidential candidate to run on that platform.

I don't.

[Jacobin]

40. Oh for the love of Christ

Senator Clinton sounds more and more like the RW clowns every fucking day.

:thumbsdown?

[tabasco]

43. When is Chelsea signing up for the war?

Soldiers are just pawns to these assholes.

Casualties are just numbers.

Fuck 'em all - republican and democratic war enablers.

[superconnected]

45. touche' !

:toast:

[IndianaGreen]

57. Hillary ignores 650,000 dead civilians, 2 million exiled, over 1 million living in refugee camps

in their own country. To add insult to injury, Hillary has the audacity to blame the Iraqis for all the woes that we brought them in the name of "freedom and democracy."

Add to that the fact that Hillary wants to keep an occupation force in Iraq, as well as American bases, and you will see why the antiwar movement will never support this woman's Presidential ambitions.

[Arugula Latte]

61. STFU, Hillary. Stop blaming the Iraqis!

Jesus! The fucking NERVE of her. Is she TRYING to make us despise her? :grr:

[PassingFair]

75. We TOOK OUT HUSSEIN! Why can't the brown people govern themselves?

WTF?
We've done all the HARD work!


She makes me :puke:

[whopis01]

87. Yeah... that statue didn't fall down by itself! n/t

[JVS]

62. Hmmm, I smell a peace with honor moment coming

[IndianaGreen]

65. Yep, it is beginning to look like a remake of a bad movie

I expect Hillary to refer to Iraq as "our country's greatest adventure," channeling the late Hubert Humphrey.

[David__77]

64. Iraq is the victim.

Quit blaming the victim. There is not one ounce of heroism in this criminality.

[Auntie Bush]

66. Seems to me Hillary was blaming the Iraqi politicians...not the Iraqi people.

I'd/we'd sure hate to be blamed for bush and his cronies evil mistakes.

[NashVegas]

80. Iraqi Politicians - You Mean

The puppet government?

[davidthegnome]

68. I swear, if that idiot wins the nomination...

I'm giving up on the American dems and moving to Ireland.

[BigDDem]

81. Buy your ticket now

it'll be cheaper than in Aug 08.

[BikeWriter]

69. Hold someone accountable today! * broke Iraq, he bought it!

[Bill McBlueState]

70. well, it's a popular position

"The American military has succeeded, it is the Iraqi government which has failed to make the tough decisions that are important for their own people," Clinton said.

As offensive as that is, it meshes well with popular sentiment in the US. Americans aren't anti-war, they're anti-losing. Most people I hear from have no objection to illegally invading a sovereign nation; it's the fact that it didn't go so well that bugs them.

Besides, Clinton's remarks shift the blame to brown people. That's, like, our national pastime.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

77. A popular position?

More like a media-generated position. That's what you hear from the talking heads.

If all the pundits on the news channels started talking about how it was illegal to invade Iraq in the first place and how we've messed up that country worse than Saddam Hussein ever did, and if they repeated that meme as often as they repeat that nonsense about the Iraqis failing, then maybe the American people would become enlightened.

For all the talk about the liberal, anti-American media, there's one thing that mainstream pundits are NOT and have NEVER been allowed to say: That the U.S. government did something with evil intentions.

The Mainstream Media Myth that Must Be Maintained, no matter what happens, is that the U.S. never deliberately does wrong. If it causes suffering, it's all a "mistake" (Iraq, Vietnam) or it only looked evil--it was really good (support for the Contras, support for various Third World dictators).

But sometimes an American administration deliberately does something evil, like overthrowing the elected government of Chile in 1973 or funding rebels to overthrow an internationally recognized government in Nicaragua while at the same time funding other Central American governments to use state terrorism to put down their own rebels, or the whole Iraq mess.

The media need to start saying that and saying it often until it sinks in. America is not "a shinging city on a hill." It is not "the greatest country in the world." It frequently does things for cynical and evill reasons. Only when that realization sinks in can the U.S. become an adult country and escape from this adolescent self-absorption and fragile ego.

To paraphrase the borrow of a book from the Reagan era: "Who will tell the people?"

[Evergreen Emerald]

76. Is she talking about the Iraqi government that went on a 2-month vacation

Just as our men and women were sent there to "surge?"

[BigDDem]

79. Appreantly....

Hillary dreamed up the war...
Hillary started the war...
Hillary single handily controls the war...

Yet she still leads her nearest rival by double digits.
Man, Democrats must be really, really stupid.

[Steerpike]

83. Personally, I'm still waiting for Jerry Brown to jump in to the race.

Of course, all things being equal, Hillary will get my vote when the time comes.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

86. I think a lot of self-described Democrats aren't so much stupid as

gullible. They think that what CNN tells them is the whole story. They think that Clinton and Obama and perhaps Edwards are the only Democratic candidates out there. At this point, they're going on name recognition alone.

At one point about 18 months out from the 2004 election, there was a poll that named Lieberman as the front runner.

Most people who aren't political junkies don't think in any terms deeper than, "I've heard of that person" and "I like that person's personality."

Of course Hillary didn't start the war, but she sure as hell enabled it and has not repented of her position or acknowledged that the Iraq invasion was a war crime by the standards of the Nuremberg Trials, followed by nearly daily war crimes on the part of the occupiers (torture of prisoners, bombing of civilian and cultural targets, appropriation of Iraq's resources, etc.)

Today, what do we think of the German and Japanese legislators who went along with the aggressions of World War II not because they necessarily believed in the war, but because they were afraid that a propagandized public would misunderstand them? We think they were self-serving cowards.

That's what I think of Hillary. There, I've said it.

[Steerpike]

92. But in my case Hill is better than any Republican.

I also feel that The War should be layed at the feet of Bush and the Neo Cons...I also believe that Hill will resolve this shit sandwich as well as it can be resolved given the circumstances, if elected.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

105. You realize that you're damning with faint praise?

Hillary is hardly the only person who would be better than a Republican, and we're aiming awfully low if that's our only criterion. Hillary is only a little bit better than a Republican, and in these dangerous times, a little bit better isn't good enough.

What a bunch of wusses.

[Steerpike]

111. Sorry I don't intend to Damn with Faint Praise...

I do agree that we have more than a few Democrats that are "better than any Republicans". I think all our candidates fit into that catagory. I'm just sorry to see that so many people here hate Hillary as much as the conservatives do. I wonder if an equal number of DU'er heads will explode if Hillary gets elected. So I wonder who the candidate of choice for DU'ers is? Obama? Edwards? I like them all. Even Hillary, loved and hated though she is, is a strong Democrat.

[Zhade]

99. Uninformed, yet arrogantly assumptive that they actually know what's going on.

Their little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Makes 'em feel like they're actually making judgments based on good information, when that's not even close to true.

I mean, shit, think how many times even Dems say Florida wasn't stolen, on this very website, which was founded on the fact of the 2000 coup.

USAmericans are, by and large, very poorly informed about the reality of the world.

[Stuckinthebush]

85. She leaves me empty

I know what she is saying, and it is a politically expedient thing to say. The US military is the best in the world and there is no way they could have screwed this up nosiree. That's what Americans want to hear. So, Clinton says these things and marches closer to the nomination.

She leaves me cold and empty.

[Forkboy]

94. I'm with ya on that one.

The only real vision she seems to have is the one in her head of her being in the Whitehouse.After that it tails off quickly...

[Stuckinthebush]

95. Yes...and that's ok that she wants to be president

but to get me excited a candidate needs to have passion and make people want to push them to the whitehouse. To me, Clinton has little passion and her campaign seems to be pulling people with her instead of having the public push her to be president.

If she gets the nomination I'll vote for her but I don't see me going crazy to support her. She has just not excited me and I can't put my finger on why. I have no declaration for a candidate yet...perhaps they all leave me cold and empty.

Funny how my feelings change at the mere thought of Gore jumping in.

[wageslave71]

166. I feel the same way

I would vote for her if she received the nomination, but I wouldn't be ecstatic about it. And I suspect that may be part of the strategy. Our votes will count the same if we cast them holding our noses or bursting with enthusiasm. On the other hand, I'm not sure how the fence-straddling technique will play out with folks further to the right. She can work hard at being tough on terror, not being "defeatist", not admitting mistakes, etc., but I suspect she has been demonized by the GOP to such an extent the ground to be gained by it is limited.

[Zhade]

96. Such racist nonsense - as if the Iraqis are to blame for our having illegally invaded their nation.

This just further cements the commitment that I will be forced to make to leave the presidential slot blank if she wins the nomination. I will not vote for anyone who wishes to continue the war; I certainly will not vote for anyone who blames the victims for our crimes.

You are wrong, Clinton. What's worse, I don't think you even get just how fucking wrong you are on this.

[Buns_of_Fire]

100. The solution is simple: In the future, we simply MUST concentrate

on occupying countries who will be more grateful for our attention! :sarcasm:

[sampsonblk]

102. Ridiculous, but typical

Just as Dem 'leaders' helped Bush claim there was an 'intelligence failure,' some are now helping him blame is deadly incompetence on the Iraqis.

Shameful, but not all that surprising.

[ryanmuegge]

110. I'm sure this statement reflects the results of a focus group her people conducted over the weekend.

That talking point must have tested well.

Blaming things completely on the new Iraqi government is so off-base and insane. None of this would be an issue if we hadn't unilaterally and illegally invaded (duh, eventually destroying the existing institutional networks. Nothing against Clinton as a candidate (she's not my favorite, nor is she my least), but I really hate that "it's all the Iraqi government's fault" talking point.

Not to say that the Iraqi government is great or anything, but what do you expect given all of the ethnic and tribal complexity of the region?

[flaminbats]

115. Hillary Clinton is like a political pendulum..

one day she says something I like, the following day she says something that turns me off!

I loved what she had to say during the healthcare debate, and was glad to see her win that Senate seat in 2000. but I was outraged when she voted to support the Iraqi War, and how she failed to hold Bush accountable for his failure on 9/11.

either Hillary needs to show some consistency in her message, or she needs to get out of politics! otherwise she'll only bring the Democratic Party down with her.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

135. Her Time Passed and She Failed the Test

To prove how 'mainstream' she was, she kept her war mantra, which to some degree, I get (even if I disagree with it), but when she kept wrapping herself in this war as late as 2005, I gave up on her. She never won the support of cons and she's not winning the support of liberals. Shouldn't we expect more?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

165. I'm Right there with You

She is a political opportunist.

In her quest to prove how 'strong' she is on national defense, she bought the Bush Iraq war agenda and *NOW* she protests? Give me a break. She flies with the political wind of the day.

Three years ago, I put up with her transgressions because I know how much cons loathe her and heck...he she pisses them off...she can't be that bad.

But she is. Her vote to continue funding this war and enabling Bush to increase troop levels was the *FINAL* straw for me.

[ProudDad]

121. In the interest of fairness

I was listening to Thom Hartman's show yesterday and he mentioned Hillary's speech. He said that whoever wrote that small section of the speech really FUCKED UP and that the rest of the speech was "right on" and well received.

Of course, with all her money she can make sure she has speeches tailored for whatever audience she appears before...her "mixed carpetbag" (I like that! :) )

[wordpix]

140. I'm for Dodd but few will vote for him due to his

double chin.

Seriously, if you don't look like a movie star, you're toast in this presidential game.

[Inuca]

148. Ridiculous, isn't it?

I like Dodd too.

[Red1]

147. 75% Of These Posters Are From Freeper Land

[Maribelle]

154. I agree one thousand percent

They are not even good at pretending, let alone logic.

[wordpix]

155. that's what I think, too---although Hil's waffling on Iraq & Libby has me

questioning how she'll do on getting us out of the war.

If you can't take a firm position on Libby, Hillary, I doubt you can be firm on getting us out of Iraq. Why don't you revisit that? The republican prosecutor and judge found him guilty as hell and so did the Grand Jury and jury in the court trial, but you can't make a statement about a pResidential pardon?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

157. TAKE IT SOMEPLACE ELSE

:nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity:

This forum is for people who want to debate the issues. You don't like the folks here, there are lots of other places to go.

I'm sure you will eventually find someone who thinks just like you.

[Red1]

160. How Bout Here?

HILLARY CLOBBERS OBAMA: POLL
By IAN BISHOP
November 21, 2006 -- WASHINGTON - Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton laps the field in the 2008 Democratic race for the White House, a new poll shows.

Among Democratic voters, 33 percent want Clinton in the Oval Office - more than twice as many as the 15 percent backing rising star Sen. Barack Obama (Ill.), according to the CNN poll.


http://www.nypost.com/seven/11212006/news/nationalnews/hillary_clobbers_obama__poll_nationalnews_ian_bishop.htm

[fightthegoodfightnow]

162. Sad State When the Leading Democratic Candidate

........voted two months ago to fund this war in such a manner that the bill she endorsed enabled the President to increase troop levels.

More of the Same

America can do better. The American people were very clear in the last election. Hillary wasn't listening and for that matter .... neither was Barack.

[BigDDem]

175. Who are you supporting for President?

Here's your chance to say something positive about your choice....

[Moochy]

174. Bullshit

Take your troll accusations elsewhere.

[Moochy]

168. "You know, I love coming here every year, I see the signs: 'Lead us out of Iraq now.'

And she loves ignoring those signs apparently.

Blame someone else for your IWR vote? check. It' was mean ol Bush's fault for tricking the poor hapless freshman senator...

Why is Iraq not doing better? It's all Iraq's fault.

Fuck this pro-war pro-empire neo-liberal happy talk.Every progressive should redouble their efforts to defeat this war mongering, pandering hideous political animal.

[BigDDem]

172. "Why is Iraq not doing better? It's all Iraq's fault. "

No, it's all Hillary's fault. Everything is Hillary's fault, remember?

[Moochy]

173. When it comes to owning up to why she voted yes it's 100% her fault

Pro-war jerks come in both flavors!

[fazoolius_2006]

171. Political Spin

Unreal. Glad I am not voting for her!

[natrat]

177. how anyone of concience could support her is beyond me