Rabbi wounded in stabbing in Frankfurt financial district

[Behind the Aegis]

Source: Reuters

A 42-year-old rabbi was stabbed in an attack near Germany's financial district in Frankfurt, police said on Saturday.

The police said the rabbi, who managed to get to a nearby hospital after the attack, had been approached on a street in Frankfurt's upscale Westend quarter on Friday by a man he believed was speaking Arabic.

When the rabbi stopped to ask the man what he wanted, the assailant pulled out a pocket knife, uttered a death threat in German and stabbed him in the abdomen. The assailant and two women with him then fled.

The police said the rabbi, who is a member of the local Jewish community, was operated on in hospital shortly after the 8:30 p.m. attack and the injuries were not critical.



Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/902075.html

[razors edge]

1. Attacking people for their beliefs,

or lack of beliefs, is what keeps this whole religion thing going.

"Insane man over there who doesn't believe in our god has attacked me with..."

"Lets go attack them in retaliation..."

Isn't one definition of insanity, doing the same things over and over again, and expecting a different outcome?

We need to sue all religions for the loss of property and life incurred from their actions.

They're rich, they can afford it.

[DavidDvorkin]

2. How do you sue a religion?

[razors edge]

3. Pass a law.

[DavidDvorkin]

4. A law saying what?

[razors edge]

5. How about something simple like,

If a member of your congregation commits an act causing loss of life or property in an act against others condoned in any manner by your superstition, you pay for the clean up.

Thats not so hard now is it?

My use of you and your is in no way a reflection of anyone in particular, thats just how laws are worded.

Edit to add last clarification.

[okasha]

6. And if someone commits a murder,

let's round up and execute the whole family.

[razors edge]

9. There is something completely wrong

with the way you think.

See a therapist.

[SayWhatYo]

19. How about this...

let's round up the congregation and execute them?




*as you probably know, the poster above wasn't really suggesting that, but rather using it to point out the flawed logic in what you claim to think.

[razors edge]

27. Why stop there

we could go after the electricians who wired the church and execute them too.

There is no flaw in having an organization take responsibility for the outcome of their actions. The flaw is in being so short sighted as to believe it impossible, and only being able to express that short sightedness with outlandish statements.

[SayWhatYo]

29. I never liked electrcians anyways.

[razors edge]

31. They do seem obsessed about oral sex.

Always so concerned about blown fuses.

[otherlander]

10. That's silly.

You can't stop crazy people from thinking the same thing as you.

[razors edge]

13. Stop teaching crazy shit.

Isn't that the same thing we demonize the madrases for? (many other religious schools receive persecution, I picked this one since it seems to be the flavor of the day)

Who decides what action is crazy?

You?

Me?

Take responsibility for the derangement fomented from the brainwashing, or pay for the damage caused.

What is silly about that?

[LanternWaste]

36. Under this clever law...

Under this clever law, would all organizations be held to the same standards, or only religion?

If only religion, what is the precise and relevant difference between religion and all other organizations?

If the clever law encompasses all organizations, does that also mean if a co-worker of mine goes bat-shit crazy and kills his family one evening, then the business and all workers are held equally liable?

:shrug:

[dipsydoodle]

7. There is nothing whatsoever in that article

to suggest that the motive behind the attack had any religous basis. It could equally have happened to a postman.

[MidwestTransplant]

8. The circumstances speak for themselves. How many random stabbings do you think there are in Berlin?

How about in the US where there is absolutely no motive? Especially if it was clear this guy was a rabbi or an observant Jew, it's a little naive to suggest that wasn't the motivation.

[reorg]

14. I don't know

how it would be "clear" that the guy was a rabbi or an observant Jew. I have been living in Frankfurt for some 30 years and never ever saw people like those traditional Jews in Queens. You don't usually see if someone is an "observant Jew" here. I passed ONCE a man on the street who wore some traditional attire which for some reason looked Jewish to me, but that was the only time I remember.

[reorg]

24. according to a report in Der Spiegel

the victim was wearing a yarmulke, or kippa, as they call it here.

Which would not have made it "clear" beyond all doubt to a stranger that the rabbi was Jewish, but maybe that's why the attacker recognized him as such.

Allegedly the attacker also used a term of abuse indicating that he assumed or knew that the victim was Jewish.

That still does not answer the question as to what the motivation of the attacker was.

As to your question how many random stabbings there are in (Berlin - I think you confused Berlin with Frankfurt, where the attack occured): Random violence does not occur very often, but it happens a number of times every year - in a city with some 600 K inhabitants, center of a metropolitan region with 4 million.

Random stabbings happen on schoolyards, in bar brawls (especially in the tourist quarter Sachsenhausen, sometimes people get shot there, too), when someone gets mugged, in pimp fights, or any other violent fight, since they don't usually own guns here. I never witnessed any such violence myself, but got hit in the face once by some violent imbeciles, in broad daylight, and nobody of the numerous onlookers would dare to intervene, or even call the police, despite my pleas, and the blood streaming from my lips ...

To my knowledge, violent attacks don't get much attention outside of a short notice in the local paper, except if someone dies. The recent attack, however, immediatedly made it to the front page. The Frankfurter Rundschau (FR) dedicated its first three pages of their Monday print issue to the incident. People in Israel or in the US don't need to worry that something like that will go unnoticed here, that is for sure.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. is the German version of Der Spiegel that much different than the English version?*

the victim was wearing a yarmulke, or kippa, as they call it here.

Which would not have made it "clear" beyond all doubt to a stranger that the rabbi was Jewish, but maybe that's why the attacker recognized him as such.

Do you know many or any people in Frankfurt that sport a kippah as a fashion statement or for a reason other than they are Jewish? Or was "not" added accidentally?

Allegedly the attacker also used a term of abuse indicating that he assumed or knew that the victim was Jewish.

From der Spiegel, "The man, flanked by two women, spoke to Gurevitch in what sounded like Arabic and then switched to German and said: "You shit Jew, I'm going to kill you." He stabbed him in the stomach and ran off." (emphasis added)

That still does not answer the question as to what the motivation of the attacker was.

It seems pretty clear the motivation for the attack was the Rabbi's religion, real or perceived. He was not robbed nor were the others there attacked. Could it have been "pay back" for a deal gone bad? Sure, always possible. However, calling someone a "shit Jew," threatening to kill him, then preceding to stab him in the stomach as to make good on the threat, not taking money or making any other demands or threats, it would appear this was an anti-Semitic attack.

*English article from der Spiegel:

Rabbi Stabbed in Germany

The stabbing of a rabbi in Frankfurt by a young man speaking Arabic has prompted Germany's Jewish community to renew its warnings about no-go areas for minorities in Germany, and to warn that Germany's young Muslims are becoming radicalized by hate preachers.

Rabbi Zalman Gurevitch, 42, was walking home from his synagogue in Frankfurt's Westend district with two guests on Friday evening when he was approached by a young man described by witnesses as being of "southern" in appearance.

The man, flanked by two women, spoke to Gurevitch in what sounded like Arabic and then switched to German and said: "You shit Jew, I'm going to kill you." He stabbed him in the stomach and ran off.

Gurevitch was rushed to the hospital and underwent emergency surgery. He is now recovering and told Bild newspaper in a statement passed on by a friend: "I am much better. My wife is by my side all the time. The last thing I want is for this attack to be trivialized and swept under the carpet."

more..

[reorg]

33. no, the English version usually is just the translation of the German article

I've seen people wear a yarmulke when they visit Jewish places of worship, just to show respect, not because they are Jewish themselves. People from Turkey sometimes wear caps that could be confused with a yarmulke. Yes, of course I have seen people wear such caps in public. I don't see how wearing a cap "clearly" identifies someone as a member of a religion.

If it is true that the attacker abused the victim as "Scheissjude" then the attacker certainly assumed the victim was Jewish. It would also indicate that he was full of hate, the origin of which we cannot possibly know yet. Maybe he is a Palestinian enraged by what happened/happens to his family and blames "the Jews"? Maybe he is a racist idiot who thinks other people are inferior to his ilk? Maybe he knew who the rabbi was and didn't like some or other statement of his? It is a mystery to me why you would automatically assume that religion has anything to do with it. It is the conception of "the Jews" as a people which makes it possible to identify them as an enemy, not their religion.

I'm glad that the Jewish community in Frankfurt is not panicking. There is no reason to hysterically declare Frankfurt a "no-go area" for Jews just because of this one incident. Whether or not "young Muslims are becoming radicalized by hate preachers" - who knows. Some probably are, but the Arabs I have met were not "radicalized by hate preachters". They seemed to have quite rational complaints about Israel's policies and objectives, though, which is an entirely different matter but often confused with hate by those who see anti-Semitism everywhere.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oberliner]

32. Police: Anti-Semitic insult preceded Frankfurt rabbi stabbing

An anti-Semitic insult preceded the stabbing of a rabbi in Frankfurt that has drawn expressions of outrage and concern from local officials and Jewish groups, police said Monday.

Witnesses reported the attacker first spoke to the rabbi in an unfamiliar language as he walked down the street in the German city's Westend neighborhood Friday evening, police spokesman Manfred Feist said. Then, the man said in German "I'll kill you, you (expletive) Jew," before stabbing him and fleeing.

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/902882.html

[reorg]

11. i read the local paper

the Frankfurter Rundschau, and it didn't happen "near Germany's financial district in Frankfurt" (what would be the significance of that, anyway?). Because it didn't happen in Frankfurt's "upscale Westend quarter". Someone confused Westend with Nordend, which is a pretty average neighborhood, populated by students, families, certainly a number of well-salaried intellectuals, but definitely not "upscale" (and what would be the significance of that, anyway?). The Nordend is the most liberal, multicultural, greens-oriented part of Frankfurt. It was the voting district where the former foreign minister, Fischer, used to run. All kinds of immigrants have been living there since the sixties and seventies: Turks, Greeks, Italians, Spaniards, Yugoslavs, mostly, nowadays also people from the East, naturally, and you also see Africans, Indians and Pakistanis, Arabs, Palestinians among them.

According to the police, it doesn't look like the incident was planned. It is simply not known (yet) what it was all about.

[Henny Penny]

12. In fairness Aegis....

horrible as it is.... surely it comes under local news?

[Behind the Aegis]

15. local news?

[ohio2007]

16. yes

time to move the story to a back water forum

this is an uncomfortable subject and not a welcomed discussion to debate in this forum ;)

[Behind the Aegis]

17. Oh. gotcha!

;)

It is interesting to see how this story is treated here.

[razors edge]

18. My true best wishes

for a speedy recovery for the victim, and all victims of religious zealotry.

[smirkymonkey]

22. Actually, I don't think this should be local at all.

It's quite possible that this may have something to do with the fact that Germany recently introduced a proposal to start monitoring converts to Islam (and I would assume those who already practice the religion).

The stabbing incident could have been some form of backlash against feeling picked on, but instead of going after the dominant culture, they go after a weaker minority (one for which they are naturally against to begin with.) Anyway, I see it as part of the chain of violence, but of course until they catch the perpetrator, we can't know for sure what the motivation is. It could just be straight on religious/racial violence or less likely, a random stabbing.

[Behind the Aegis]

23. I agree.

More information is needed. It is highly doubtful this was just a random stabbing, but the possibility always exists. Without more information, it is difficult to understand the motivation behind the attack; but, I feel some here (at DU) wouldn't care one way or the other because it was a Jew who was the victim, but that is just my opinion.

[Henny Penny]

20. What an absurd interpretation of my comment.

Someone was stabbed in Dublin this weekend. They died. A horrible event and yet if I was going to post it anywhere, it would have been in the Ireland group because in my view that is a local interest story.

This poor man was stabbed and is recovering in hospital. We have no idea by whom and what the motivation was.

[cali]

21. From the AP

The rabbi was walking with two other people when they encountered the assailant accompanied by two women, a police statement said. Witnesses said the attacker spoke to the rabbi — who was wearing a yarmulke — in what sounded like Arabic.

The rabbi did not understand, and the attacker then threatened in German to kill him and stabbed him once, police said. The attacker fled and the women who were with him ran in different directions.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jgKFaT9Qy89NarUa4Yz2PI-NYEUA

[CreekDog]

30. If they were stabbed for being Jewish, it would be news

Little thing called the Holocaust makes attempting to kill Jews on the basis of their religion, world news.

C'mon.

[JNelson6563]

26. Lunacy.

Barbarians.

Those are the most civil words I can come up with....:grr:

Julie

[reorg]

34. Perpetrator arrested - one week after attack

The attacker has been arrested and admitted to his deed only one week after the stabbing. The 22 year old German national (who is originally from Afghanistan) had related details of the incident in an online forum, which came to the attention of the police. He denies that he wanted to kill the rabbi and claims he used his pocket knife (ca 3-inch blade, 7.6 cm) because he felt physically inferior during the altercation. An arrest warrant was issued for causing dangerous bodily harm and attempted manslaughter (I think that is the correct translation of the German standard legal terms, I'm not sure, though).


German sources:

FAZ
... Der 22 Jahre alte afghanischstämmige Deutsche habe den Angriff zugegeben, eine Tötungsabsicht jedoch bestritten, teilte die Frankfurter Staatsanwaltschaft am Freitag morgen mit. Entscheidend für den Fahndungserfolg der Ermittler sollen Recherchen in einem Internetforum gewesen sein. Dort sei die Polizei einem Dialog des Mannes auf die Spur gekommen, in dem er detaillierte Angaben zum Tathergang gemacht habe. Eine Sonderkommission der Polizei hatte auch mit Hilfe eines Phantombildes nach dem Täter gefahndet.

http://www.faz.net/s/Rub28FC768942F34C5B8297CC6E16FFC8B4/Doc~E3A4A9BDDB6154792A10B1C092599A9EB~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html

FR
... Der festgenommene Deutsche soll nach Angaben der Staatsanwaltschaft ursprünglich aus Afghanistan stammen. Die Ermittler kamen dem 22-Jährigen mit Hilfe eines Dialogs in einem Internetforum auf die Spur. Der Mann wurde bereits am Donnerstagabend festgenommen. Gegen ihn wurde Haftbefehl wegen versuchten Totschlags und gefährlicher Körperverletzung erlassen. Der 22-Jährige gab laut Staatsanwaltschaft die Tat zu, bestreitet aber eine Tötungsabsicht. Er habe sich bei dem Zusammentreffen dem Rabbiner körperlich unterlegen gefühlt und deshalb zum Messer gegriffen, sagte er den Angaben zufolge.

http://www.fr-online.de/top_news/?sid=ecd902ad8f128bba89a9400c69e73a54&em_cnt=1210394

[reorg]

35. English report in IHT

International Herald Tribune

"... Prosecutors said they tracked down the suspect, who they did not name, after being tipped off to an Internet forum that contained details of the incident.

The suspect, a Frankfurt-born German citizen whose parents come from Afghanistan, says that "there was an exchange of words which ended in a physical confrontation," prosecutors said.

He said that he "felt physically inferior to the rabbi and so reached for his knife," but denied any intention to kill him, they added."

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/09/14/europe/EU-GEN-Germany-Rabbi-Attack.php

[reorg]

37. no apparent anti-semitic motive

The suspect was apprehended after someone mentioned details in the "Eintracht Forum" - a fan forum for Frankfurt's major league soccer team. Another participant in this forum informed the police who then quickly found the suspect, a 22-year-old who was born in Frankfurt and still lives with his parents in a Frankfurt suburb.

http://www.eintracht.de/meine_eintracht/forum/
http://www.eintracht.de/meine_eintracht/forum/17/11129118/

With the confession of the suspect, a slightly different version of what might have happened takes shape.

First, he was walking the street alone, not accompanied by "two women" (two fifteen-year-old girls who just happened to be in the vicinity).

Second, he claims what he said to the rabbi "in an Arabic language" was simply the standard Arab greeting, "salem aleikum". I said earlier that people wearing a yarmulke in public might easily be confused with other people from the Middle East wearing similar caps (at least this could happen to me, so why not to someone else who may not be too familiar with these traditional garments). I can believe the suspect in that he just wanted to be friendly to what he might have thought was an Arab on the street. The rabbi, OTOH, might have mistaken what was meant to be an friendly greeting as a provocation ...

Third, the rabbi OTOH did not walk the street alone, he was accompanied by others, who are the (only) source for the claim that the suspect made an abusive and threatening remark before stabbing the rabbi ...

Fourth, the rabbi is reported to be strong and big - the suspect claims he was violently grabbed and shaken by the rabbi. Not totally impossible that he indeed felt threatened and stabbed the supposed attacker in self-defense, I guess.

But maybe the suspect is just lying.


"... prosecutors said the suspect - whose name they did not release - denies having either any intention of killing the rabbi and any anti-Semitic motive.

The Frankfurt-born German citizen, whose parents come from Afghanistan, maintains that he greeted the rabbi with the words "salaam aleikum," or peace upon you. In their statement, they said that there was then an exchange of words which ended in a physical confrontation. "

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/903721.html

[reorg]

38. the latest on the suspect: he had violent record

"... the suspect, 22, a German national of Afghan descent, had received a warning and two weeks of detention in January for several acts of violence.
These included punching a caretaker and firing an air-gun toward him four times while yelling "Dirty German." In another case he had threatened a bus-driver with a knife. ..."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/905320.html

http://www.fr-online.de/frankfurt_und_hessen/nachrichten/frankfurt/?em_cnt=1213263&index_page=2