Plan to Sell Iraqis M-16s Triggers New Controversy

[sabra]

Source: WSJ

<snip>

This spring, after years of requests from senior Iraq politicians and generals, the U.S. began quietly converting the Iraqi army over to the M-16, the main rifle for U.S. soldiers for more than 50 years. According to the Pentagon, the Iraqis have thus far purchased about 21,000 of the rifles, worth roughly $27 million, from Colt Defense LLC. Current plans allow for the Iraqis to eventually buy 123,544 of the American-made firearms.

The shift to M-16s is stoking a debate about how the new Iraqi army should be equipped. The M-16 is a far more accurate weapon than the AK-47 assault rifle the Iraqis relied on through decades of fighting. But it's also tougher to maintain and could strain the Iraqis' supply and maintenance systems. More to the point, the Iraqi army is riven with conflicting loyalties, leading many in the U.S. military to worry that the very weapons the U.S. is supplying could be turned against them some day.

"There has been a lot of anxiety about having modern assault rifles fall into the hands of terrorists," says Col. Michael Clark, who advises the Iraqi ground command in Baghdad. "The M-16 is just a much, much better weapon. . . . It can do real damage."

The argument over the M-16 is part of a broader issue that has dogged U.S. efforts to rebuild the Iraqi military since the beginning of the war: Should the U.S. seek to model Iraqi forces after its own -- and in the process familiarize soldiers with advanced, modern American equipment? Or should it simply teach the Iraqi army to better use the weapons and vehicles it already possesses?

Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119180608991151863.html

[GregW]

1. Only one reason to migrate to the M16...

OK - two reasons:

1. Make parts manufacturers richer trying to sell all the crap needed to keep them running in a desert environment
2. Try to cripple the insurgency by flooding a weapon with much higher maintenance requirements into the war (which will ultimately make their way to them)

Yes, the M16 is a good (great?) rifle - if I was looking for something I could pour a pound of sand through and then spray-n-pray the AK is a better bet.

[Javaman]

5. Funny you say that...

a buddy of mine who is a Viet Nam vet would tell me that during patrols he and his unit would find cashes of Ak's from time to time. One favorite thing the VC would do was to coat a bunch of AK's in axel grease, then wrap them in a trap and place them in a river. They would leave them there for years and they would still be able to work once wiped off, not even cleaned. lol

[RamboLiberal]

7. There's this from the late Col. David Hackworth

One of the bulldozers uncovered the decomposing body of an enemy soldier, complete with AK47. I happened to be standing right there, looking down into the hole and pulled the AK out of the bog. "Watch this, guys," I said, "and I'll show you how a real infantry weapon works." I pulled the bolt back and fired 30 rounds - the AK could have been cleaned that day rather than buried in glug for a year or so. That was the kind of weapon our soldiers needed, not the confidence-sapping M-16. ~ David Hackworth, US Army battallion commander, Vietnam War. In About Face, The Macmillan Company of Australia 1989 p669

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/AK-47

[Javaman]

9. Dang, that is something else. nt

[Pavulon]

15. The early M16 had many problems

shit ammo made it jam. No cleaning kit. No proper training.

Middle of a war is not a great time to push a new weapon. The m14 had most of the qualities of the ak and would have done a good job in its form at the time. It was reliable, accurate, and used a powerful 7.62 cartridge.

However the current m4 and m16a4 are pretty good rifles. They still require cleaning, but have chrome lined, bores and are reliable.

There are better weapons and better ways of testing them than dumping them on guys in the middle of a war.

That is a great book.

[saigon68]

12. It's called Cosmoline

It looks like "axle" grease. But it is a pain in the ass to remove

The AK and its variants are the perfect weapon for the DESERT

I'll bet Betrayuses puppets will shit in their pants when their M-16s jam due to inadequate maintenance, worn parts and the sand of the terrain.

[TomInTib]

6. Maybe that's how we plan to end civil war.

Let their own M-16s kill them off.

I went looking around the market and found a hummer.

Daewoo K2
5.56, select-fire, never-let-you-down.

[IndianaGreen]

10. Profit is the only reason!

A force armed with M-16s cannot compete with one armed with AK-47s. Newer models of the Russian made assault rifle are far superior to anything in the Western arsenal.

[Pavulon]

13. G36, HK416, FAMAS, FNC, SIG55x

are all superior in accuracy and reliability. Even when not kept tip top.

The HK variants and the SIG are quite capable of accurate fire and reliable operation. So they say.

I honestly had a problem with a clean M4. CLEAN being the operative work.

New russian stuff is still low spec trash compared to modern platforms.

[LeftyMom]

2. Then we can blame any "friendly fire" and "accidents" on the Iraqis! Bush is a brilliant strategist!

:woohoo:
















PS If you didn't get the :sarcasm: there's no help for you.

[EFerrari]

4. William Park, a retired Harvard Prof, who is a Middle East expert

and who has studied insurgencies exhaustively, was invited to speak to the Progressive Caucus. I watched it last night. (Lynne Woolsey, Maxine Waters, Barbara Lee, others.)

He said we're arming the insurgency. He said you could by a tank in Saigon on the black market and the same thing is happening in Iraq. 190,000 weapons General Betrayus can't account for, remember?

He said there is not a single case of stability occurring before sovereignty.

He said we have to show the Iraqis that WE ARE LEAVING and do an orderly withdrawal. While there will be ugliness when we leave, it can be minimized.

Listening to this man, he seemed to be speaking from another, better planet than the one George Bush and Dick Cheney live on.

[Irreverend IX]

3. It's an interesting way to sabotage Iraq's armed forces, to be sure...

The AR rifles are effete weapons better suited to shooting competitions than battles. I don't know that this is being done at the behest of contractors, though, since the contract to produce M16s isn't even held by an American company but by the Belgian manufacturer FN Herstal.

[Pavulon]

14. The M16 is quite capable

of making people dead. Given a choice I would carry an m16 or m4 (with a cleaning kit) over an AK variant.

They operate differently and the m16 must be cleaned to operate.

Clean does not mean dry and pretty it means that you have to clean the parts of the weapon that are moved by combustion gas used to cycle it.

However hitting a target beyond 300m is a reasonable with the m16.

Not so much with the ak. The civ versions of it are minute of cardboard weapons at 200 yards.
(never shot the russian issue weapon, obviously)

Selling them to an untrained disorganized gaggle who do not practice regular field stripping of weapons is a bad idea.

However the hamas folks in the west bank seem to be fond of them..

[RamboLiberal]

8. Another FUBAR

Whatever M-16s don't end up on the black market will soon be inoperable from the Iraqis being unable to keep them properly maintained and cleaned.

For that environment the AK should be the only choice.

FWIW Lehrer recently had a report of problems our troops are having with their M-16s in Iraq. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/july-dec07/rifles_09-24.html

[madrchsod]

11. if i had a choice this is it

100rd box is one hell of a lot of firepower.

[benEzra]

16. That's a squad auto, though...

more comparable to the SAW than to the M16/M4.

But that raises the question--if the Iraqi army is transitioning to the M16, then for the squad auto they also have to (1) go with something like a SAW/M249/whatever in 5.56x45mm, (2) buy RPK's from Russia in 5.56x45mm, or (3) maintain two separate logistics trains for rifle ammunition all the way down to the squad level. If 3 guys in a fire team are shooting 5.56x45 and one is shooting 7.62x39, you have a logistics problem...

[provis99]

17. even one of the designers of the M-16

says the gun, slightly modified over the years, is a crap gun. Being able to shoot 300 meters doesn't mean much if the gun jams. And most combat involving small arms fire only is generally 75 m or under, where the AK can do just fine. Under 75 m, pretty much any of the fully automatic weapons on the market can hit a target. To make it worse, the current version of the M-16 isn't even fully automatic in most versions; it has a 3 round burst selector, which was only put in to reduce ammo consumption, because the damn thing doesn't hold enough rounds in a magazine (though admittedly, some other auto weapons only have 30-32 round mags, too). A 100 rd magazine makes more sense, since in most cases small arms are used for suppression fire anyways.

[TheWraith]

18. Not to mention, aren't those things rather heavy? Not good for mobility.

I've heard wonderful things about the FN FAL. Personally, if I were equipping an army I'd want to standardize on the 7.62 rounds.

Upon perusing Wikipedia, I just discovered that the Canadian variant of the FN Minimi light machine gun comes with a 3.4x optical sight. How very Canadian to put a scope on something that carries up to 200 rounds.

[-..__...]

20. 7.62 NATO is better suited for light machine guns and sniper rifles.

With a select fire assault rifle it's a bitch to control in full-auto.
The mag capacity on an FAL (and M-14), is for all practical purposes limited to 20 rounds. There are 30 round FAL mags, but it makes the weapon rather awkward and unwieldy to handle.

[TheWraith]

21. I guess I just have a tendancy to lean towards one-shot stopping power over auto burst fire. NT

[-..__...]

22. I'd prefer both in a single package if it were available.

One shot stopping power is nice for picking off enemy combatants at a distance and from a concealed position... full-auto/burst mode is nice for CQB and providing cover fire.

[Progressive Friend]

19. The sectarian militias that make up the "Iraqi army" already have a better weapon: the AK-47