Rejected math book raises brows

[douglas9]

Source: Houston Chronicle

AUSTIN — If any subject taught in the public schools is nonpolitical, it should be math. Evolutionists, Creationists and even communists should be able to agree that one plus one equals two.

But political antennae are up, following the State Board of Education's rejection of a third-grade math book, whose previous edition already is being used in at least 28 Texas school districts or charter schools and in schools around the country.

The board's refusal to put the text, Everyday Mathematics, published by McGraw-Hill, on either its conforming or non-conforming textbook list will cut off state funding for the book after this year. Any district still wanting to use it will have to pay for it from local tax dollars.

Math books were the only texts reviewed this time, and the board adopted all the other offerings — more than 160 — including books published in the same McGraw-Hill series for other elementary grades.

Read more: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5327819.html

[soothsayer]

1. but why did they?

[crikkett]

2. "...prematurely encouraged the use of calculators."

From the article:

The seven Republican board members, all social or religious conservatives, who voted to block the McGraw-Hill book complained that it didn't do enough to help students memorize multiplication tables and prematurely encouraged the use of calculators.

"This is a bad book," said board chairman Don McLeroy of Bryan, one of the seven. He said the book didn't help prepare kids for the road to college.

On edit:
It seems that either the reporter didn't try very hard to manufacture a controversy, or they didn't do anything at all to explain the controversy past the cheap shot of labeling board members 'social and religious conservatives.' My own mother forbade me from using a calculator until I was a junior in high school. It sucked then, but I can do math when the lights are out, a trick that comes in handy once in a while.

[Demeter]

3. That Is A Very Valid Concern!

A calculator cannot teach a person to think. If mathematics does anything, it is teaching thinking skills at many levels. And to do so, one must start out knowing the basics cold.

If you cannot multiply and divide without assistance, you are beyond most everything. Algebra will be impossible, let alone anything more difficult.

[crikkett]

5. hear, hear!

[formercia]

8. The dumbing down of Amerika

Serfs are not allowed to think.

[Tesha]

32. You might enjoy Isaac Asimov's short story "The Feeling of Power".

You might enjoy Isaac Asimov's 1959 short story
The Feeling of Power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Feeling_of_Power

Tesha

[Demeter]

35. I Remember That One!

Asimov is a prophet for all times, I think. He considered EVERYTHING.

But more to the point, I have seen the inappropriate introduction of calculators cripple my own daughter's progress in mathematics. She had to get tutored, drilled in arithmetic facts, before she could do algebra.

[timtom]

226. Interestingly enough

I was a complete bust in math from elementary school all the way through junior college.

Thanks to calculators, I was able to become proficient in math, such that I have worked since 1980 in a semi-engineering environment and those who are my betters often ask me for help in math, algebra, and trig problems.

I'm still basically right-brained, though.

[formercia]

92. Azimov was a serious scholar as well

http://www.amazon.com/Roman-Empire-Isaac-Asimov/dp/0395065771

A fitting subject for the times at hand.

[Prophet 451]

227. Excellent primer

I've read Asimov's Roman Empire book before. It's a good primer but lacks detail (as you'd expect from a single volume covering such a massive subject) but it has one thing in it's favour: Asimov's writing style is easy to read which is a blessing in a field where authors seem to compete to be driest.

[alfredo]

105. Text of the story

http://downlode.org/Etext/power.html

On edit More etext:

http://downlode.org/Etext/

[karynnj]

62. Neither a calculator or memorized math facts teach you to think

My husband and I, both math majors in college, have shook our heads when our three kids used a calculator for things like multiplying 8 times 7. But all of them did sufficiently well in math - including one who got very easy As in high school calculus. The thinking part is how you formulate the problem, deciding the operations to take - which are the same downstream with or without a calculator. Where there is an obvious difference, it is seeing the difficulty kids have in making change at our local beach.

The one thing that was harder for them than I remember it being was factoring, which is far easier if you know the math facts. They used a far more systematic approach than I did - dividing by each prime in turn until they had a complete list of factors. While this was more work for numbers like 24, where people in my (baby boom) generation knew the possibilities without thinking, it works even to get factors of much larger numbers that were harder to do.

It also means that they did not spent the couple of days we did learning to manually take the square root of a number, nor the time we spent in high school learning to use a slide rule - both rather outdated skills.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

72. I suppose it depends on the grade level

Should kids be able to use them in AP calc? sure because by then they either better know how to think or nothing short of cheating will help them. But you have to learn the fundamentals some time or lord help you try to reach advanced math.

"The thinking part is how you formulate the problem, deciding the operations to take - which are the same downstream with or without a calculator."

Yup, and that can get so hard that the basics better come off in your head in an instant. It would be like handing a student (and I'm going to date myself here) a speak and spell rather than teach them the rules of spelling and grammar.

Going through school I had a teacher with just that attitude, she would tell my mother 'don't worry about his spelling when he is grown up everything will have a spell checker'. My mother was appalled and started working nights to pay for a tutor who was a retired English teacher from the 50-70's (Mrs. Dewitt) who told me on the first day (after testing) I was an abomination to the English language. I was four grade levels behind on pretty much every aspect of the English language. After 9 months with here I was two grades ahead (I even forgave her for calling me an abomination ;)

Kids can rise to reasonable levels set for them, Addition, Subtraction, multiplication, and division (with modules not fractions) tables for the numbers 0-20 are reasonable.

[nick303]

210. Calculators were banned in my freshman calc class in college

Occasionally there were homework assignments involving Maple but all exams were pencil and paper only. The chief reason being the incentive people had to use calculators to cheat. (Since most modern graphing calculators will let you save text files and are also programmable).

[ChairmanAgnostic]

231. 8x7? let's see. carry the two, plus 5, less 4 add 1 and

then,

let me guess, between 40 and 60. This higher math stuff is really hard. but at least Pi = 3.

[fishwax]

180. Calculators can help you learn to divide and multiply without assistance

That someone who doesn't know their multiplication tables (and all of us were there at one point) uses a calculator to multiply doesn't mean they will never know their multiplication tables -- that the calculator gives them the right answer can help them learn their multiplication tables.

[JCMach1]

221. Yeah, those whippersnapper programmers must learn machine code

too!

Or, as a homeschooling Muslim friend of mine is doing while homeschooling... bring back the abacus!


Please! It's the 21st century.

Doing mindless calculations is not critical thinking!

[ChairmanAgnostic]

232. No, but it is a building block.

I have met artists who have raw talent, but never took or bothered to learn basic human anatomy, color theory or perspective. Their art always looks the same, an interesting idea, but with obvious flaws and a stilted, flat expression. Well, if nudity bothers folks, then they should avoid rendering the human form. But if they want to understand the body, a series of courses in bone structure, how muscle expands, flows, contracts, and lies flacid, and how skin wrinkles, bends, stretches with the movement of each joint, AND if they sketch it enough, then it frees them to do whatever their creative minds wish to do, and if they wish to return to the badly rendered, stilted flat human figures, fine.

But knowing that tool is extremely important for a serious artist. Just like knowing and understanding the basic concepts of algebra, gemometry, and calculus makes every day life easier for humans.

[rAVES]

245. I yoused a kalculator from they 1 and I turned out fyne...

[JeanGrey]

249. Well then I AGREE with them. These kids have to be taught

how to do math the long way first, and premature use of calculators IS stupid.

[livvy]

4. Premature calculation...that could be a bad thing. But aren't there drugs for that? n/t

[Tesha]

61. Premature e-calculation is a definite cause of failure to conceive...

Premature e-calculation is a definite cause of failure to
conceive of many higher mathematical topics, not to mention
just how much your burger is going to cost after tax.

Tesha

[hobbit709]

11. I've seen way too many kids that can't do math in their heads.

They just blindly put down whatever the display shows after they hit =. The answer can be several orders of magnitude off because something was misentered but they don't have a clue. I once watched a teenager working with her mother at a fireworks stand take pencil and paper because her mother had the calculator and try to figure out 10 times 39 cents. She turned it into a two step multiplication problem and still was wrong. I couldn't believe it and had to say something even though her mistake was in my favor. I like using a calculator too but I have a rough idea of what range the answer should be in. If I'm way off, I redo it to see where I screwed up but if all you've ever used is a calculator, you have no idea about where the answer should be.

[NashVegas]

93. Most Adults Can't, Anymore, It Seems

I have co-workers who couldn't multiple 2 x 168 in their heads, so they think I'm a frigging genius.

The generation that was allowed calculators in math class was about two years behind me.

It's annoying now at the supermarkets when a clerk tries to lay the coins on top of the bills as they hand me change. This is a different method that came about when they no longer had to count out the change, first.

[Tesha]

94. I've gotten old enough that I now waste too much time looking for the shortcut...

> I have co-workers who couldn't multiple 2 x 168 in their heads,
> so they think I'm a frigging genius.

I've gotten old enough that I now probably waste too much time
ooking for the shortcut. Uhh, 2x168, that's like 2x150=300 plus
2x18=36 so 300+36=336. I'm not sure that was faster than just
brute-forcing it ;).

Tesha

[MissMarple]

259. That is exactly how I do it.

And, I have friends who consistently look to me to find out what 20% of the tab is for the tip. :hi:

[Xithras]

96. I've seen way to many kids who can't do math on paper, with unlimited time.

I teach Computer Science at the college level, and every semester I have the same conversation with my students on the first day: "Computer Science is a math-centric curriculum, and it is not my problem if your previous instructors have failed to teach you how to solve math problems properly. If you are incapable of solving a calculus equation on paper, something any high school senior should be able to accomplish, I suggest you leave this room right now and take a math class. I make no provisions for the poorly educated and you will fail."

I typically lose or fail about half the class. It's a funny thing though...those who leave or fail call me an a**hole harda**, and my dean regularly receives complaints about my "unrealistic expectations". Those who DO pass the class, i.e. those who know math, generally love me as an instructor. I'm a geek at heart and like to have fun, but I expect people to keep up.

Kids who only learn math on calculators cannot keep up.

[JeanGrey]

250. Yeah, ever see those kids in Mickey D's when their

cash register's go on the blink and they can't make change? Man, that is SAD.

[Catch22Dem]

24. Why does it matter that they're Republican and social/religious conservatives?

The article seems to point that out for a reason, but it looks like they're concerned that the book encourages calculator usage before understanding basic math. Mark my words, these board members are destined to make stupid decisions on behalf of the district at some point in the near future, but this doesn't appear to be one of them.

So, I'm just curious what the author of the article was going for here. It was set up as a political issue.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

73. That was my first thought

But upon reading the article further it seems the very ability of this board to control text books is an issue..

[Cerridwen]

106. Because of the history of the Texas school board and these people

Mel and Norma Gabler

We are a conservative Christian organization that reviews public school textbooks submitted for adoption in Texas. Our reviews have national relevance because Texas state-adopts textbooks and buys so many that publishers write them to Texas standards and sell them across the country.

Our unique 46 years' experience gives us expertise equal to or beyond that of the education establishment itself in all phases of the public school textbook adoption process, and in that our standard review criteria spell out what public school textbooks often censor on certain topics.

Publishers market textbooks — and many teachers select them — based on convenience of their teaching aids. Unlike them, we review textbooks for academic content only. Parents, teachers, and school board members can all profitably use our materials.



Subject areas of concern include:

* Scientific weaknesses in evolutionary theories
* Phonics-based reading instruction
* Principles and benefits of free enterprise
* Original intent of the U.S. Constitution
* Respect for Judeo-Christian morals
* Emphasis on abstinence in sex education
* Politically-correct degradation of academics

The founders are gone but their legacy lives on.

[JeanGrey]

251. I agree. It should not be a political issue. I agree with it

and I don't care if it was a rep or dem who did it.

[boricua79]

25. I must agree..

when I was a kid, my father and mom didn't want me to use calculators to do calculations. In my 7th grades, they were requiring it, but my parents wouldn't believe me and would force me to do it by hand. I'm glad they did, but there was a clear generational discrepancy. The new generation is used to using calculators and computers.

No reason to make it a controversy, but it's a legitimate issue to discuss...particularly since many other countries are kicking our butts in math.

[dogfacedboy]

67. Too tahms too is fo'; Fo' tahms fo' is ayet n/t

[damntexdem]

170. The issue has to do with the board's ability to censor textbooks.

The Legislature took away that power. They are supposed to reject textbooks only for errors of fact. They rejected this book because of its emphasis, not any errors of fact. Whether or not one agrees with the reason given, it is not supposed to be within their power to reject textbooks for such reasons. This will be really important when they take up biology textbooks, history textbooks, and so on.

[EFerrari]

213. Not enough greenbacks from McGraw Hill to BushCo. n/t

[Maestro]

6. I actually taught from this math curriculum and it was wonderful.

It truly taught critical math thinking skills. The use of calculators was not the basis of the curriculum. It simply had lessons showing children how to work with them, a skill they certainly need. It was very well-rounded. I suppose the drill and kill advocates are back dumbing down curriculums that are boring and do not foster critical thinking.

[izquierdista]

7. Calculators are to mathematics as

YouTube videos are to literature. I suppose if you were teaching a writing class, you would accept a student's video file of a book report instead of one written down on paper. Talk about dumbing down. :crazy:

[Demeter]

10. That's a Fabulous Monicker, Izquierdista!

Does it mean what it says, in Spanish?

[izquierdista]

17. Porque no?

But since the left-right distinction originated in France, other countries may or may not use it as frequently as it is in colloquial American usage.

[JoFerret]

13. Nonsense

Pens and pencils are to literature etc.

Remember your Socrates.

Giving children the tools of the trade is not dumbing down.
Read the post from the teacher who used the textbook.

[izquierdista]

18. Mathematicians don't need calculators

They are not a tool in the sense that a writing implement is necessary to be able to write. But when all you have been shown is how to punch numbers into a calculator, one might make the mistake of thinking that button punching is doing mathematics.

[Toots]

23. Do you ever use spell check?

:shrug:

[izquierdista]

26. Not for every word

I have gone a long time without having to look up the spelling of "a", "an", and "the". :evilgrin:

[Toots]

30. Maybe you missed my point

Spell check is nothing more than a tool just as are computers and yes even the dreaded calculater...

[izquierdista]

41. Reliance on tools

Is best done AFTER you know the purpose of the tool. Otherwise, their are situations wear you go two use the tool and it may give you a result, butt knot the won that indicates that you no what you are doing.

I spell checked that last sentence, just to be sure. :evilgrin:

[Toots]

50. Like using a shovel and knowing when you find yourself in a hole to stop digging

:shrug:

[LanternWaste]

120. Well.. you just preempted any semi-clever, witty retort...

Well.. you just preempted any semi-clever, witty retort I was prepared to make to the poster you responded to.

That. Was. Simply. Classic!

:toast:

[karynnj]

64. But you wrote "their" instead of "there"

The tool in mathematics is knowing how to formulate the problem and what tools are available to solve them and when each is appropriate. People who excelled at the mechanics, yet whined and complained that they hated the "story" problems were not learning the real tools - just the mechanics that a simple calculator could replace.

I frankly was jealous of my kids graphing calculators - which did not exist when I was in high school. But it did not make the classes easier. Used well, by eliminating the tedious work, they allowed kids to get a better handle on the underlying relationships. As the kids all had these calculators, the tests became far harder, with more of the test measuring if you understood the relationships and other higher level skills vs the points we got for the mechanics of doing the graph.

[SyntaxError]

115. That was his point..

He made several errors that were not detectable by the spellchecker. :P

[midlife_mo_Jo]

176. I agree

By high school, calculators are invaluable tools. And they certainly have their place in middle school, as well.

[immoderate]

186. I taught math in a middle school that promoted the use of calculators.

Since my approach is problem oriented, I gave them questions for which the calculator was of little use. They wound up giving me very precise, but wrong, answers. I continued to do that until they understood that math is not done on a calculator.

I drilled them in Fermi math, for which the calculator is particularly superfluous. Fermi's method was to make rough estimates assuming that rounding errors would cancel each other out. Interestingly, I once gave them a question on a test: "How many movie theaters are there in the United States? Explain your thinking." More than ninety percent of the students got the same answer, although each approach was unique.

Generally, I would express horror when I'd see a calculator. "Save that for accounting problems," I'd say. Those that finished were encouraged to model their problems in a spreadsheet.

True story: Recently I bought a box of Barbecue ribs from a restaurant. The girl at the cash register said, "That'll be twelve dollars and thirteen cents." I laid down a twenty and she started to ring it up. Then I said, "And here's thirteen cents." She went into total panic mode. She couldn't change the register entry. She pulled out her calculator, attempted several different entries, and totally gave up in exasperation. She looked at me, practically in tears. After a simple explanation I said, "You give me eight dollars."

"Oh."

--IMM

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

192. I think that restaurant thing is unfair.

The girl at the register has a million things on her mind- seating customers, getting drinks, coordinating table bussing, when you gave her the 13 cents after you rung her up you pulled the rug out from under her. It's got nothing with doing math in your head.

I've been there myself and it's really disconcerting.

[immoderate]

206. No. It was take-out and she just sat at the register.

Really, there was nothing much else going on at the time. She didn't do seating, waiting, or busing.

The way I see it, she was really dependent on what the register display told her to do. I notice that many people nowadays do not know how to "make change." It used to be taught. She was not visualizing the problem: I had to give her $12.13. I gave her $20.13. What's the difference?

--IMM

[Auntie Bush]

209. However, the spell checker didn't catch two for to

Can't trust the damn thing. But thank God for spell checker...it's my savior.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. You aren't a mathematician are you?

[karynnj]

63. No most of us prefered computers

Mathematicians at top research institutions do not sit at their desks doing long division by hand. You are mistaking arithmetic for mathematics - which would be like equating writing as a profession to spelling.

Having gone to lunch with many a group of fellow mathematicians and engineers, I can tell you that many are not good at the mental math to divide a check n ways.

Just as punching numbers is not mathematics, neither is memorizing math facts - it is arithmetic.

[Oak2004]

76. You might also think that memorizing tables is math too

and it isn't.

But memorization did succeed in driving generations of kids away from math.

Knowing how to do arithmetic in your head is a useful life skill. But it's not the same asunderstanding mathematics, any more than an enslavement to calculators would be. Coming from an "older" generation, I loathed math due to the "mindless" memorization until a seventh grade teacher threw the textbook out and started teaching us higher math (set theory, number theory, numerical analysis, mathematical logic, etc.) -- something neither memorization nor calculators will help you (much) with, and which is genuinely exciting stuff. It's also not beyond the capacity of elementary and junior high kids -- it's what the rest of the world teaches their kids (after a couple of years at most of learning arithmetic), and that's why America is always at the bottom in international test results.

I went on to major in physics and math (with a minor in history, just to confuse everyone I guess :)), largely because of that teacher.

[Demeter]

78. Drill in the 3rd Grade Is Appropriate

and done correctly, makes further drill unnecessary. Unfortunately, sorting kids by ability is currently forbidden by the education fashionistas as somehow being discriminatory.

[proud2BlibKansan]

83. No, drill is NOT appropriate or a suitable replacement

for GOOD Math instruction in a 3rd grade classroom.

You don't teach, do you?

[Demeter]

88. Yes I Do

[proud2BlibKansan]

90. What subject? What age level?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

122. Homeschooling?

[Demeter]

125. Engineering

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

127. You teach engineering but you've got a thing against calculators?

Is this some sort of "alternative engineering?"

[damntexdem]

175. Bring back sliderules!

The way God intended math to be done. ;-)

[proud2BlibKansan]

137. And you disapprove of calculators??

You're either lying or ignorant.

[PVnRT]

234. Wow, I must be a bad engineer, then - better go return my M.S.

:eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

121. Drilling the times table is fine for a thrd grade classroom.

Using flashcards, or some such material.

I'd see no reason why a textbook would "emphasize" such drilling.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

118. Did you ever go to college?

Because it seems unlikely that you wouldn't at least have been introduced to trigonometry if you had.

[JVS]

158. Calculators are good for trig because they replace looking it up in charts.

Looking up stuff in charts doesn't help with later stages of development.

Using a calculator to do arithmetic is not as good because, say we're multiplying some numbers.

Doing it in your head reinforces strong ability to deal with numbers, this kind of thing will be important in applications such as factoring where efficient algorithms don't exist.

Doing it on paper as in long multiplication is also good because it reinforces the making of algorithms and the handling of data. This will also help later when you need to factoring and working backwards from a single number to components.

Putting it in the calculator just give you a number, it doesn't strengthen the student.

[damntexdem]

172. Not even constipated mathematicians.

They can work it out with a pencil.

[mike_c]

199. that's because mathematics is not calculating....

I'm old school-- I drilled on multiplication tables ad nauseum until I memorized them for life. I also use LOTS of math professionally, mainly in ecological modeling and data analysis, which I teach at the university level. I say CALCULATION is for machines. Sure, I can do it in my head and on paper. In practice, I do that only for framing problems and setting up solutions, and even there the calculations themselves are secondary-- when I need actual quantities calculated I push the button and run the routines.

Mathematics is LOGIC and procedure. It's algorithms. It's quantitative thinking. But it's NOT calculation.

[Demeter]

40. A Calculator Is The Accountant's Tool

NOT a tool for the student of mathematics!

And if they get that far, the science and engineering students can make use of mechanical computations.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

124. Huh?

What?

You'd prefer students of mathematics use slide rules? Or trig tables?

[JVS]

193. She's right. Look at these problems

A rectangle axb (a>b) is cut into right triangles so that any common side of two triangles is a leg (cathetus) for one of them and a hypotenuse for the other. (Every two triangles have a common side or a common vertex or no common points.) Prove that the ratio a/b is not less than 2.

The integers 1,2, ... , n each appear n times in an nxn matrix. Show that there is a row or column containing at least n1/2 distinct integers.

Define a sequence of strings as follows: Let R0 = 1 , and let Rn be the string obtained by replacing each instance of 'i' in Rn-1 with '123..i' and finally adding 'n+1' at the end. So for instance, R1 = 12 , R2 = 1123 , R3 = 11121234 . Show that for n>0 , if we write Rn down and Rn backwards under that, then each column will contain exactly one '1' .

Between 2n-1 positive integers, prove that we can choose n of them in which the sum of these n integers is divisible by n.

At a round table are 1994 girls playing a deck of n cards. Initially, one girl holds all of the cards. In each turn, if at least one girl holds at least two cards, one of these girls must pass a card to each of her two neighbors. The game ends when and only when each girl is holding at most one card.
a) Prove that if n > 1993, then the game cannot end.
b) Prove that if n < 1994, then the game must end.

[Justitia]

196. I just gotta ask, unless you become an engineer (maybe), what is this good for?

Disclaimer: I'm an accountant and I would dearly love to see practical classes such as:
HOW TO BALANCE YOUR CHECKBOOK
HOW TO PREPARE A BUDGET
HOW TO DO YOUR TAXES YOURSELF
HOW TO MANAGE YOUR MONEY & FINANCES
FINANCIAL THEORIES OF DEBT, CREDIT & SAVINGS

etc., etc., etc!

Instead, they get the esoteric stuff above that teaches them to HATE MATH w/a passion.

Egad.

[nick303]

211. Because it's better to learn the fundamentals

Then you can figure out the applications all you want. The problems shown were something you'd probably find in an abstract math class taken after the initial calculus sequence you take in college. People who can solve these types of problems have a promising career as an engineer, computer scientist, quant analyst (Wall St), or really any career involving the hard sciences.

The topics you mention are things people should know (and I'd agree that many don't), but for the most part are fairly simple applications of arithmetic.

[JVS]

243. Actually they were mathalon questions.

But you'll see questions like that on the Putnam exam as well. They do demonstrate the important difference between lower level math and higher math is the switch from "Calculate..." or "What..." to "Prove..." or "Show..."

[JVS]

242. That stuff is not Math, it's applied arithmetic

The stuff above is what math is. Visit a Graduate level course in the theory of calculus, Topology, Algebra, Number Theory, or Combinatorics. A calculator is not needed, nor really that helpful there.

[Justitia]

252. Thanks for the invite, I'm not that much of a masochist, LOL, but I'm happy to work you through

the mysterious wonders of how your pension is (sufficiently) funded,
the pros / cons of mark-to-market treatment of a futures contract,
what it means if your mortgage is part of an asset-backed security bundle,
and your potential exposure to the Alternative Minimum Tax!

Accounting is fun (but you will need a calculator)!

[dsc]

219. On your last question

Why wouldn't the game end with 1994 cards. I would think you could have a senario where a girl gets 3 cards and each of her neighbors have 0 cards with the rest having 1 card. She hands 1 card each way and now they all have one card.

[nick303]

220. Have you tried modelling the game with 6 players and 6 cards?

Obviously you will have to generalize from there but it's a good place to start.

[Maestro]

107. Have you used the curriculum? It is actually very good

and really makes math meaningful to kids. Like I said, the use of calculators was a small part of the teaching. What sort of curriculum would you propose?

[fishwax]

178. That's a rather bad analogy

:crazy:

[PVnRT]

233. Why not?

Why is a video report (essentially an oral report) worse than a written one? Why do you want to stifle creativity in the name of doing things the old-fashioned way? Something tells me you are not a teacher nor have you done any work related to the field.

[JoFerret]

14. Thanks for the informed opinion

Many r/w "educationalists" believe in the basics to the exclusion of human intelligence. Drill. skill, kill - you know - the fundamentals from the bible.

[izquierdista]

21. That is one thing they may have gotten right

Not necessarily for the right reasoning, but exercises are necessary to develop any ability: athletic, reading, handwriting, keyboarding, piano playing, and yes, mathematics.
How good is a football team if the coach gives up on running patterns and has the team just watch tapes of games?
How good are foreign language skills if no sentence drills and pronunciation patterns are given?
How good is a computer programmer if he can't touch type and uses two fingers?
How good is a teen-ager at driving if he never has any behind the wheel training?
In every body of learned knowledge, there are some things that must be memorized to the point where they become automatic, and for mathematics, multiplication tables are one of these things. Premature use of calculators replaces active knowledge with passive knowledge, to the detriment of further progress and learning.

[karynnj]

65. Do you really thing that to be a good computer programer, you have to type well?

Somehow, I assume that having the logic skills to develop an efficient algorithm and the do debug the program to insure that it is correct are far far more important than typing it quickly.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

75. I have never seen

A peck and hunt programmer...

[izquierdista]

80. Paying by the job are you?

Or if he takes 3 times as long to enter in lines of code, will you pay him 3 times as much?

[muriel_volestrangler]

87. I don't think you can ever have seen programmers at work

It's not typing something in that takes time - it's the thought and design of the program. Few computer programmers can touch type. Most are like me, I'd say - using more than 2 fingers, but not 'touch typing'.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

131. With the programmers that I've watched...

the most frequently used key on the keyboard is the backspace button.

[immoderate]

191. And then there's COBOL...

Mavis Beacon Teaches COBOL -- LOL!

Modern programmers mostly use IDEs (Integrated Programming Environment) but this comment is not aimed at you MV. Just confirming that programming, like math, is done inside your head, and helped by diagram.

I agree that most programmers don't type that great, but they sure know keyboard shortcuts.

--IMM

[PVnRT]

235. Mathematics is not calculation

as someone sagaciously pointed out upthread. You seem to be confusing the two, and the fact that most people don't know the difference is a direct result of the standardized testing craze.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

74. Regardless of their motives

teaching kids to do quick multiplication on numbers lower than 20 is valuable, don't think so? go to a supermarket... My mother used to be able to shop within a couple of dollars (after taxes) of our weekly budget without the use of paper or calculator.

Wrote memorization is a flawed method for teaching... just as No memorization is a flawed method of teaching. Memorize the basics think about the harder stuff..

[Doctor_J]

102. So teaching them calculator skills precludes teaching them basic facts?

You sound like you think this book completely excludes mult. tables. Why?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

156. In theory no, in real life yes...

[Maestro]

109. When I used the curriculum, one of the first homework

assignments was to look at an odometer. If the children did not have access to a vehicle, a very good illustration was included. The homework assignment, 3rd grade, was actually about place value, but this simple activity showed kids how math is important in their lives. There is no memorization of tables or "math facts" as homework. Learning math tables out of context does not teach children why these numbers are important. They must be used in real-life situations or in problems that foster critical thinking. Anyhow, it is a shame that my state is no longer accepting this as valid. I should be surprised but I am not. I hope many districts and educators let the Ed. Board have it!

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. Yes I have used it too and I agree

It is probably one of the better programs for our kids. Of course, if we just want our kids to sit and memorize information they don't understand, then Everyday Math is not what we should be using.

I also think anyone who criticizes the use of calculators in a 3rd grade Math class needs to come teach my Math class. They can hand out calculators and watch while the kids have no idea how to use them. LOL

I can't help but remember the time a kid came up to me and asked where is the H on the calculator. He was trying to enter 100. He found the 1 key but couldn't find the H.
:rofl:

[Maestro]

111. OMG! That is funny!

And sad at the same time. My state is bassackwards sometimes (many times), but I had heard rumors that the state was not going to list Everyday Math in the list of state approved curriculum and now it is true. Pathetic.

[proud2BlibKansan]

117. I guess you have to be a teacher to get that story

Everyday Math is really a good program. It comes with wonderful materials and manipulatives. The kids love the games. But we are supplementing it this year with Investigations. We felt that Everyday Math just wasn't comprehensive enough. And Investigations doesn't teach computation well enough. So the two of them are a good mix.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

66. The nations with the highest math scores

certainly do more "drill and kill."

It's not fun, but that method produces superior math students.

[proud2BlibKansan]

84. Link??

I really hate this "that country does better than ours" talking point. It's bullshit and I am asking for links every time I see it.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

146. Ask away, and see my post #132

And there is plenty of information in google land.

[Maestro]

112. Please cite some research on this.

It would seem to me that critical thinking needs to be taught, not rote memorization of tables.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

128. My critical thinking skills suggests...

that they're not mutually exclusive.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

139. You're right. They aren't, but we all know

teachers who say they don't have enough time to cover everything. Good computation skills and clear conceptual understanding of the basics are so much more important than learning how to read a table or venn diagram in second grade, imo.

[proud2BlibKansan]

144. So is it also your opinion that

"The nations with the highest math scores certainly do more "drill and kill." ? Because I asked for a link and so did another DUer yet you have failed to provide one. So I was wondering if perhaps this is also just your opinion.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

147. We all know teachers who are very busy.

But I've never known any teachers who believed in the false dichotomy between memorization and critical thinking.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

150. The amount of time spent in the U.S.

learning critical thinking skills is disproportionate to the amount of time kids in other countries spend on critical thinking.

Considering how poorly we perform in math compared to other countries, wouldn't you say something isn't working? Our students are "spread too thin" when it comes to elementary school math.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

179. Back up that claim.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

182. I informally researched this for my own children quite extensively

but that was several years ago.

http://sitemaker.umich.edu/schueller.356/curriculum

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=13722

Not exactly what you asked for, but info can be gleamed from these articles, anyway.

[Buzz Clik]

253. Sonofabitch. I agree with you again. That's the second time.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

132. What do first graders need to think "critically" about?

A firm foundation in math facts and computation and clear conceptual understanding of the basics will allow the older student to think far more critically than the student who spent his early years learning to think critically. ;)

I'm simply amazed at the amount of time my kids spend on word problems, when they don't even know their math facts.

Remember this in the news a while back?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/18/tech/main2104384.shtml

"Even efforts to make math relevant may be irrelevant, says the study, released Wednesday. Nations that try to teach math in terms of daily life have the lowest test scores. "

Sure, our kids have a blast learning about graphs, tables, venn diagrams, geometry, "relevant" real life word problems, etc. in second grade, but the kids in other countries are enjoying math less, yet outscoring our kids. Their students are filling our university math programs because they are better prepared. In my opinion, those are the results that matter.

[proud2BlibKansan]

140. Then teach your kids their math facts!

Buy or make a set of flash cards and get to it. It's really not too hard. Here are some great websites to get you started:

http://www.scholastic.com/kids/homework/flashcards.htm

http://www.apples4theteacher.com/flash-cards.html

[midlife_mo_Jo]

149. No need for the links, but thanks anyway

Believe me, I am teaching my kids their facts. By third grade my older kids all knew their math facts, but my youngest kids have some serious learning issues. sigh

[Buzz Clik]

254. Having put many kids through the public schools...

... I have invested countless hours in flash cards. For a couple of the kids, it was purely remedial. For the others, it was for the sake of knowledge and pure speed. Seeing an 8-year-old add a series of 4 digit numbers in her head is pretty satisfying.

I'm willing to do my share to ensure my kids get the proper foundation.

[JoFerret]

228. That's a bit of a myth actually

There's some really good research on math teaching world wide.
The nations with the highest scores generally spend more time on the problem solving big picture stuff and not on memorizing and drilling discrete nuggets.
Fewer topics, greater depth. More room for student work and less instruction.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

247. I totally agree about fewer topics and greater depth

I've mentioned that several times here using the example of kids being introduced to venn diagrams, bar graphs, pie charts, and numerous other concepts. in second grade, and still not knowing math facts by fifth grade. It's unbelievable what's in a second grade curriculum these days - very broad and very shallow.

[PVnRT]

236. "Math scores"

You mean standardized test results? Do you really think that standardized tests are the best measure of learning and intelligence?

[midlife_mo_Jo]

246. Do you really think it's just a coincidence

that those countries whose kids are outperforming ours on those tests are also filling our universities' math and science programs? :)

[Didereaux]

110. and I say this about todays teachers of math...

You are the third generation products of the 'dumbed' down theory of mathematics. I would fully expect you to defend bad practices, you do not understand your subject, as you have never been taught it. So as an expert commentator on any discussion of the subject you fail.

The grandparents know that the children of today completely lack math skills of even a rudimentary nature, the childrens parents recognize that something is lacking, even though they themselves are also products of teachers who do not know the subject. Add in the people who are advanced mathematics and hard science majors and you have a qualified group to comment on the problem and offer possible solutions...but under no circumstances can credibility be given to todays teachers! I repeat they are at least the third generation of educators who themselves are uneducated.

[Maestro]

113. Well, okay. Please feel free to start your own school to

teach us ill-prepared and ill-informed teachers. :eyes:

[Didereaux]

119. in a way I did that ...

I do not believe in home schooling unless by necessity of location or some such. My approach was to make sure that I watched what my two kids were being taugh, and to augment as I thought necessary to bring their skill levels upto at least those I had when the same age. The most help required from gradeschool through highschool was in mathematics. I talked with many, many of the teachers over the years, and not adversarily either, I might add. With one exception, no teacher in a public school did I find an understanding of the subject. They simply had not been taught it themselves. Mathematics, particularly at the lowest levels is a very easy subject, but if you are not capable of mental manipulation of numbers it can become totally unweildly and unusable very quickly.

It appears that those onerous multiplication tables do more than simply allow quick recall of a set of number relationships, it helps wire the memory which allows for the recall of the relationships that appear later in higher forms of math. But that is veering.

My point is this, that your response of 'well start a school to teach math' is itself an example of your own lack of will in self improvement. Math can be learned on your own, or at least with minimal outside tutoring, by the mature mind. You will probably not be advised to do so in the hope of achieving some breakthrough in the math field, but you can certainly master it upto and including Calculus (which by the way is quite simple when explained properly. I have seen even jocks and education majors do well in a class conducted by an able instructor).

So my advice to you, is first use some initiative and improve your own skills, thus reducing the casualty count you now have, and two hold off on commenting on this subject until you are qualified to speak about it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

123. Ah another parent who raised TWO kids knows more about teaching

than teachers who have taught THOUSANDS.

Gotta love it. :rofl:

[Didereaux]

133. perhaps a teacher who DAMAGED thousands?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

134. I'm sorry about whatever went wrong with your education.

But there's nothing wrong with teaching a kid how to use a calculator.

[Didereaux]

135. AFTER they learn the basics. Otherwise they cannot even recognize a bad entry! THINK!!!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

138. False dichotomy.

Nobody is suggesting they not learn the basics.

Think yourself.

[Maestro]

143. OMG! The basics! The basics! The battle of educrat conservatives!

:eyes: You need to teach kids to think through the use of numbers in meaningful situations.

[proud2BlibKansan]

145. LOL I thought I had heard that back to basics argument somewhere

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

148. Here's what I don't get...

aren't these the same nutjobs who think that Hooked on Phonic is the cure for illiteracy?

[JVS]

155. Define meaningful situation?

If you mean going to the store, it's a whole different ballgame from dealing with abstract situations life combinatorics, number theory, or even basic algebra like factoring. I consider all of these meaningful and plug and chug on the calculator isn't going to get you very far in these fields. If you're talking about applications like engineering, calculate away, but Abstract is not the same as meaningless, and math students need to know how to deal with the abstract.

[fishwax]

181. Kids can learn the basics through the calculator

:shrug:

[JVS]

154. There are problems that can arise. A lack of familiarity with the numbers can result in poorer...

problem solving techniques. Kids who are not able to deal with arithmetic on its own terms and must grind out problems with a calculator are going to have trouble when asked to prove that a^5-a is divisible by 30 for all positive integers a.

[proud2BlibKansan]

136. So your intent is now obvious

You would rather trash teachers than have a rational discussion. :crazy:

Sorry but I am not going to be your punching bag.

Peace! :hi:

[Maestro]

142. I think it is obvious.

She/He wants to trash teachers.

[NashVegas]

157. Is It Possible They're Trashing the Education Industry? And Not Teachers?

Over 100 years ago nations produced engineers who were able to invent flying machines - with no formal education past high school.

[proud2BlibKansan]

159. And over 100 years ago kids didn't go home and play vidoegames all night

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

185. No, they churned butter.

No reason to blame videogames.

[Maestro]

173. Many probably do trash the industry but at least person

has trashed me personally simply for not agreeing so I think that at least this person is out to trash teachers just for the sake of trashing teachers who do not teach they way he or she wants.

[Didereaux]

187. nope the industry, and you just happened to defend it, proving the point of the issue

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

188. Whereas you're defending standardized tests in the other thread.

And that tells everybody what they need to know.

[Didereaux]

197. Not what I said and you know it...I said

or tried to say that the standardized tests of old did not have the same affect on teachers back then as they do those of today, because those teachers back then knew their subject matter, and had confidence in their skills to passit along. They did not 'teach the test' they taught the subject that was to be tested. Look, todays teachers are no dumber, nor brighter than those in the past, some could argue quite strongly that todays are brighter...the difference between the two groups is that yesterdays teachers themselves had been taught the subject matter; whereas todays teachers have only been taught the methods of teaching! I do not know how to phrase this any differently it seems almost self evident.

[Maestro]

189. Oh please. I am simply defending a program with which

I taught. Don't make it any bigger than that.

[NashVegas]

244. I Saw That

But you're also championing the system that person is trashing.

When you take the right / left dichotomy out of it, I'm far more in favor of a traditional liberal education - which would probably be considered 'conservative' these days. This is largely because of my experience with a "liberal" English teacher who, in her zeal to make the subject "exciting" for us, gave non-traditional, interpretive assignments and then graded us on our interpretations as much as our usage of the language - if not more.

As far as "new math" training, well, that's what they gave all the remedial kids at my Jr high. 'nuff said.

[PVnRT]

237. Thanks for taking a piss on my profession

God knows us collij edyookated enjinneers is pretty dum thees daze.

[NashVegas]

241. Aw, Shucks, It Weren't Nuthin'

..

[Maestro]

141. Wow. When did we meet? When were you in my classroom?

How self-righteous of you to tell me to improve my own skills! What is the point? Take your arrogance and pedantry somewhere else.

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

160. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Buzz Clik]

255. Oh, my. Pardon me while I give you a standing ovation.

I've spent too much time augmenting my kids' educations to do anything but cast a heart-felt, "Amen!"

[Didereaux]

151. All you who argue against what I have said,,,please explain then why your system has produced todays

RESULTS! damn near illiterate adults and highschool graduates who cannot grasp the cash register and require PICTURES on the keys! Explain to the rest of us your WONDERFUL results! But ask yourself one thing, even if only in the darkest hours of the night...how can you know what you are talking about when you are the product of the problem?

[PVnRT]

238. Prove that pictures are on fast food registers because employees are dumb

We'll wait.

I worked plenty of jobs in my life that required people to use basic math. I've yet to see anyone struggle with it the way you claim. So, please, provide us some evidence instead of rehashing bad stand-up comedy routines.

[Buzz Clik]

256. It is an amazing thing. Our school district is one of the best in the state...

... yet I see my kids as needing tremendous supplementing at home. (Actually, essentially all the parents in the district feel the same way, that's why the kids ranks so high.) The teachers are expected to do a lot -- a tremendous load -- and I will not insult their work ethic. However, it is true that the current approach to teaching math leaves a lot to be desired.

[Demeter]

204. The Educational, Teachers Colleges Are Something Else

I took a course in Transactional Grammar, based on Noam Chomsky's work in linguistics, in which we used a programmed text in traditional English grammar (you remember, parts of speech, diagramming, the works) in parallel with the new way of analyzing sentence structure. One engineer in a bunch of future teachers. It was entertaining to see how little these kids knew about their subject, having done as little reading, writing, and thinking as possible. But they were up on the latest "educational theories"! Just don't ask them to write a paragraph.

[Berry Cool]

9. At least for once a textbook got rejected for an issue that wasn't religious.

"I insist upon this question being added: 'Five thousand people have come to hear your Lord and Savior speak. You have five loaves of bread and two fishes. How much bread and fish will each receive for lunch if the loaves and fishes are distributed evenly to all 5,000 listeners?'"

(The teacher's copy has the answer: "As much as they want, plus 12 baskets of leftovers.")

[xchrom]

12. if it's true that this text book some how promoted the use

of calculators for learning -- then that's wrong.

teaching kids to think through math problems using brain power is extremely important.

[SquireJons]

15. This could be a good thing...

Maybe we can redirect social conservatives energies to be devoted towards math rather than shooting doctors and gutting science as they have been for the last 30 years or so.

[Demeter]

39. Just Don't Let Them Near the Budget OR the Tax Code!

[Cobalt-60]

16. I'm sure they're just being contrary

I've heard that the particular publisher involved has connections with the Executive Crime Family.
A few words to Poppy will take care of it.
I was allowed to use an abacus through part of the second grade.
Advanced students learned the slide rule late in High School.
But I think the calc would have saved a lot of time otherwise spent on routine arithmetic .
It's ultimately the instructor that determines whether calculators are to be employed in their class rooms, anyway.

[City Lights]

19. The Bushes and McGraws go way back...

While critics of the Bush Administration's energy policies have pointed repeatedly to its intimacy with the oil and gas industry--specifically the now-imploding Enron--few education critics have noted the Administration's cozy relationship with McGraw-Hill. At its heart lies the three-generation social mingling between the McGraw and Bush families. The McGraws are old Bush friends, dating back to the 1930s, when Joseph and Permelia Pryor Reed began to establish Jupiter Island, a barrier island off the coast of Florida, as a haven for the Northeast wealthy. The island's original roster of socialite vacationers reads like a who's who of American industry, finance and government: the Meads, the Mellons, the Paysons, the Whitneys, the Lovetts, the Harrimans--and Prescott Bush and James McGraw Jr. The generations of the two families parallel each other closely in age: the patriarchs Prescott and James Jr., son George and nephew Harold Jr., and grandson George W. and grandnephew Harold III, who now runs the family publishing empire.

The amount of cross-pollination and mutual admiration between the Administration and that empire is striking: Harold McGraw Jr. sits on the national grant advisory and founding board of the Barbara Bush Foundation for Family Literacy. McGraw in turn received the highest literacy award from President Bush in the early 1990s, for his contributions to the cause of literacy. The McGraw Foundation awarded current Bush Education Secretary Rod Paige its highest educator's award while Paige was Houston's school chief; Paige, in turn, was the keynote speaker at McGraw-Hill's "government initiatives" conference last spring. Harold McGraw III was selected as a member of President George W. Bush's transition advisory team, along with McGraw-Hill board member Edward Rust Jr., the CEO of State Farm and an active member of the Business Roundtable on educational issues. An ex-chief of staff for Barbara Bush is returning to work for Laura Bush in the White House--after a stint with McGraw-Hill as a media relations executive. John Negroponte left his position as McGraw-Hill's executive vice president for global markets to become Bush's ambassador to the United Nations.

And over the years, Bush's education policies have been a considerable boon to the textbook publishing conglomerate. In the mid-1990s, then-Governor Bush became intensely focused on childhood literacy in Texas. For a period of roughly two years, most often at the invitation of the Governor, a small group of reading experts testified repeatedly about what would constitute a "scientifically valid" reading curriculum for Texas schoolchildren. As critics pointed out, a preponderance of the consultants were McGraw-Hill authors. "Like ants at a picnic," recalls Richard Allington, an education professor at the University of Florida. "They wrote statements of principles for the Texas Education Agency, advised on the development of the reading curriculum framework, helped shape the state board of education call for new reading textbooks. Not surprisingly, the 'research' was presented as supporting McGraw-Hill products." And not surprisingly, the company gained a dominant share in Texas's lucrative textbook marketplace. Educational Marketer dubbed McGraw-Hill's campaign in the state "masterful," identifying standards-based reform and the success of McGraw-Hill's "scientifically valid" phonics-based reading program as the source of the company's eventual triumph in Texas.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020128/metcalf/2

[douglas9]

28. Learning Something New Everyday

Thanks,...this was a revelation to me.....

[Demeter]

57. An Abacus Is Not a Calculator

An abacus is like a paper ballot election--what you seee is what you get.

A calculator is like a Diebold machine--garbage in, garbage out. You have to know what you are doing, so that you know when you've hit the wrong button by mistake, based on the results you get.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

126. LOL

So, wait...

You're saying abacuses are OK, calculators are bad?

[Cobalt-60]

224. true. But it was still fun to use.

[City Lights]

20. For anyone interested in learning more about Everyday Mathematics...

Everyday Mathematics is a comprehensive pre-kindergarten through 6th grade mathematics curriculum developed by the University of Chicago School Mathematics Project, and published by Wright GroupMcGraw-Hill.

Over 175,000 classrooms and 2.8 million students are currently using EM, and it is being adopted by a steadily increasing number of schools each year. This web site has been created as a resource for this growing number of EM users.

[Orsino]

22. Math should be taught at home, by caring, Christian parents.

Mathematical lifestyles should not be forced on our children. If we teach them long division, they'll be trying it out. I've heard about those middle-school math orgies where the kids get hopped up on caffeinated beverages and trade apples.

Let our children be children!














B-)

[tanyev]

27. If you just pray hard enough, and really, really believe,

you can make those numbers add up to anything.

[Tesha]

59. And dagnabit, that Pi thingamabob equals 3! God don't make no irnational numbers!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Pi_Bill

Tesha

[Orsino]

114. 65,000,000 + 4,500,000,000 = 6,000 n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. Proves how truly ignorant these board members are

And from the responses on this thread, a few DUers don't appear to understand this issue either.

Having taught elementary school for nearly 3 decades, I cannot disagree strongly enough with this 'NO calculators' argument. Calculators do NOT replace thinking brains. Calculators do not think critically or solve problems.

If a child has not learned effective problem solving skills, he can't use a calculator to solve problems.

Without good number sense, a calculator is useless to a student.

Calculators are merely tools, like pencils and rulers.

And the Texas schools are going to have a hard time finding a Math program that does NOT teach calculator use in 3rd grade. That, to anyone who knows anything about current Math programs available in this country, is the truly humorous part of this story.

[pipoman]

36. While I don't know this specific curriculum

"Calculators do NOT replace thinking brains. Calculators do not think critically or solve problems."

I don't entirely agree. Too many kids are using calculators to solve simple addition, subtraction, multiplication, division problems, 7 x 9 = does not require critical thinking it requires memorization. These tables through at least 10 (preferably 12) do not require critical thinking they require memorization. Anyone who hasn't gone to a fast food, c-store, etc. which employs young people and not been appalled by the inability to perform menial mathematics don't get out much or are of the calculator age themselves...it is sad. I know calculators do have a place in education but not before the basics of mathematics are mastered.

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. Do you teach?

It is truly amazing how kids absolutely do NOT understand calculators or how to use them. They are a very important part of a well-rounded Math curriculum. Calculators are an important tool in our 21st century work world.

Yes the basics DO need to be mastered before a kid can use a calculator correctly. You need to understand the number sense behind those symbols before you can enter a number into a calculator.

As for memorizing math facts, I have found that it is far more important for a kid to understand WHY 7x8=56 than to just spit out the answer. Once they understand the math behind the fact, they usually are able to remember (memorize) the fact easily.

[pipoman]

68. I have 2 teens who do know their tables thanks to me

I don't need to teach to know there are serious problems with much of the high school population being completely unable to instinctively know that any number times 10 = that number with a zero behind it without a calculator or cash register. Certainly you are not saying that in bygone days prior to calculators when table memorization was required people didn't understand 7x8=7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7 but with calculators they do?

[proud2BlibKansan]

81. No that is not what I am saying at all

Kids don't always understand that 2x3 is the same as 2+2+2. The trend in Math now is to teach concepts and make sure kids have good number sense rather than have them memorize facts. Once that number sense is in place, then learning and remembering Math facts is much easier.

Of course with NCLB, the focus is on knowledge based/recall level instruction and this is exactly the opposite of what we in education know to be best practice.

I would also be interested in learning why you are saying "there are serious problems with much of the high school population". Do you work with high school kids? And if so, how many? Or are you just referring to YOUR kids? This is quite a blanket statement and I am wondering what qualifies you to make it.

[pipoman]

98. I am not referring to my kids at all

because they know basic mathematics as second nature due to being made to memorize their tables in the summer between 4th and 5th grade after I realized they didn't know them.

"Do you work with high school kids?"

I live in society with them. I read the news reports about American kids being some of the dumbest on the planet. I place a lack of math aptitude directly on an education system which is enticed to change tried and true curriculum by book makers like McGraw Hill in an effort to sell books. Newer isn't always better.

Certainly my statement should not be taken as a blanket statement but far too many and too often high school age kids waiting on me cannot perform simple, second nature style math such as determining change without the aid of a calculator or cash register. Some of these kids I know to be good students. I said before I am not anti technology or calculators. I do believe there should be a requirement to pass out of 3rd or 4th grade mathematics to be able to perform multiplication and division problems up to 10s quickly without the use of a calculator. What is the harm in this? What is the benefit?

I am a believer in varied technique for teaching kids, one of mine learns best through memorization the other through application, but both must know their basic math tables without using their fingers and toes or the use of a calculator to pass my requirement...and both are better for it IMO.

[pipoman]

100. BTW I did read your response in #82

If kids are in fact required to learn their tables (and I don't doubt what you are saying in #82) then it seems the article in the OP may be misleading.

[proud2BlibKansan]

116. Everyday Math (and most other current math programs)

doesn't emphasize memorizing math facts until AFTER the student has a basic understanding and good number sense. It absolutely does NOT recommend that kids don't need to learn math facts. Giving them calculators and teaching them to use them does not mean we no longer make kids learn their math facts.

[NashVegas]

161. "Calculators are an important tool in our 21st century work world." That Would Explain

Why there are so many idiots running the show.

Most of us will probably never have to deal with anything over a 3 digit number. If you need a calculator for that, you might do better to work in a bakery. OOPS! Wait, you'll have to use measures there, meaning you'll have to drop everything to get out the calculator.

Laundry, perhaps?

[proud2BlibKansan]

164. So I take it you never have more than $10.00 in your checking account

and/or you never balance your checkbook. You also must not be an hourly employee and/or you trust your employer to always pay you correctly.

All of those examples require dealing with numbers that have more than 3 digits.

[NashVegas]

168. I Balance My Account In My Head

And I don't bounce checks.

PS - you're just throwing in decimals to be an asshole - and it's working :)

[proud2BlibKansan]

177. You said more than 3 digits

Any monetary value that exceeds $9.99 would be at least 4 digits. So yes, we do deal with numbers every day that are more than 3 digits. The decimal doesn't change a thing. A digit is still a digit.

And if you work 40 hours a week at minimum wage, to figure your total pay you would again be traveling in the land of more than 3 digits.

Just facts, nothing that proves either one of us is an asshole :)

[Buzz Clik]

257. Interesting set of points, but I'd assemble them differently:

Calculators should not be introduced until the basic math skills have been achieved. Probably 5th grade. (We may be agreeing on this -- I can't tell.)

Once a kid understands why 7x8=56, then he/she is 90% of the way to memorizing that fact. Knowing how to hammer out 7x8 on a calculator gets a kid 0% comprehension of why.

[FormerDittoHead]

60. Thank you. Your EXPERIENCE counts....

I'm REALLY thinking this is being distorted by the impression that this curriculum doesn't require students to learn the times table, rather depend upon calculators to find out what 6*6 is, and this is a totally false impression.

Here's the way I look at using calculators:

I know what a square root is.

I know exactly what the "concept" of a square root is. The "critical thinking" part of my brain knows exactly what a square root is.

But for the life of me, I would rather use a calculator to find one, and I can't think of the "value" of being able to find a square root manually.

I'm reading these messages and I'm really wondering if these posters have LOOKED at today's graphing calculators. If you don't know your stuff, those calculators are USELESS.

While a business major in college, I found studying the manual for and learning how to use the calculator often brought me to a better UNDERSTANDING of the problems I was charged to solve.

IMO, the MORE we use calculators and computers (ie: spreadsheets) the more complex problems we'll be able to solve, the farther ahead we'll get using math...

[proud2BlibKansan]

82. Would you balance your checkbook with or without a calculator?

If you do use a calculator in your everyday life (and not many people don't) then you do need to learn to use it.

Also, Everyday Math does require kids to learn their times tables. Again, the assumption that it doesn't is just ignorant.

(BTW, I did look that up in the 3rd grade book before I posted.)

[Le Taz Hot]

33. Oh, please,

they have to do better that this:

"This is a bad book," said board chairman Don McLeroy of Bryan, one of the seven. He said the book didn't help prepare kids for the road to college.

I review curriculum and determine if and which state standards, strands and substrands they do or do not meet. This is a VERY specific process. If curriculum does not meet the correct standards, or any standards, I have to offer a detailed analysis of why I've made that determination. "Doesn't help prepare kids for the road to college" (as if college was the be-all, end-all) would be met with an academic :wtf: and would probably get me fired.

[Odin2005]

34. Good. It's sad how many adults can't even do basic arithmetic.

It took me a couple seconds to do some simple addition and multiplication in my head while counting up the number of kids at the preschool I work at and my coworkers in the preschool kitchen thought I was some sort of genius for being able to do 2 x 12 = 24 in my head. :eyes:

[Jim__]

37. Based on that article, I don't see how anyone can support the board on this.

Are those board members qualified to make that decision? Did they get input from actual grade school teachers on the effectiveness of this book? The article doesn't discuss either the qualifications of the board members, or how they reached their decision.

[Demeter]

44. Would You Want Your LIfe In The Hands of an Engineer, Doctor or Scientist

who couldn't do simple math in his/her head?

Damn straight that ordinary people can know what does and doesn't work in the 3rd grade!

[Jim__]

46. Does using this book mean that kids couldn't do simple math in their heads?

There is nothing in that article that indicates that is the case.

[Demeter]

48. Give It Time

It takes a few years for the Miserable Failure to be uncovered.

[Jim__]

51. But what is your basis for assuming there will be a miserable failure?

Once again, nothing in the article supports that conclusion.

[Demeter]

54. My Kid Had That Text, and Failed--A Child of Engineers and IQ of 144

I've Seen the book. It sucks.

[proud2BlibKansan]

85. That is an excellent Math series

Would you care to explain why you think "it sucks"? Thanks!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

129. Wait, because your kid failed it's the book's fault?

huh?

[LanternWaste]

171. Possibly, post hoc ergo prompter hoc? n/t

Possibly, post hoc ergo prompter hoc?

Did other students pass? If so, did they use different text books? If not, can you point to any measurable difference in the standard of teaching your student received vs. the standard of teaching received by the students who did pass?

More often than not, I've found that most students are given the same basic tools and advantages to work with within any one school. Some will take advantage of those tools and advantages while other won't.

[Demeter]

201. Actually, the Whole City Has Depressed Math Scores

Shockingly shameful for the home of a great university.

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. No it doesn't

Good point :)

[BadgerLaw2010]

77. If my life is in their hands, I'd prefer they'd triple-check to be sure.

Would you want me paraphrasing a statute if I was representing you in court?

[Demeter]

79. Doubt That I'd Even Hire You

And you'd hate me as a client.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

130. All of hte above should be using calculators.

:shrug:

[happygoluckytoyou]

38. WEAPONS OF MATH INSTRUCTION----->

IN A RELATED STORY, THE FUNDI MATH BOOK WAS FOUND TO TEACH THAT:

2007 - 6000 = THE METOZOIC PERIOD

1 + 1 = 2 UNLESS THEY ARE GAY AND SPREAD TO THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY

PEOPLE / FEAR = STOLEN ELECTIONS

Two divided by love can only be one
And one is a lonely number
Two divided by love can only be sad
Can only hurt one another, baby

10 COMMANDMENTS + 1 LUNITIC JUDGE = A GOOD COURT CASE

[Turbineguy]

42. When I was in 2nd grade

in the Netherlands we had to stand up and recite the multiplication tables from 1 to 10. It was hell then, but a benefit ever since.

[LeftishBrit]

43. The details of primary education can become amazingly politicized

In the UK, maths instruction is relatively non-politicized, but reading instruction - oh dear! If you prefer analytic phonics to synthetic phonics (do you really want to know the differences?!), then you are a miserable sinner. I know someone who works on a reading intervention program that includes a range of approaches. He was invited to a meeting by an MP and grilled for half an hour about why his program was not using exclusively synthetic phonics!

As regards calculators: they tend to be blamed or sometimes praised for everything that children do wrong or right in maths, but the evidence from research on calculators is that at least when used in moderation, they make surprisingly little difference, positive *or* negative, to children's mathematical development. There is a general longstanding problem with maths underachievement, and it was probably even worse in the Good Old Days. A study published in 1997 of people, who had born in the UK in a particular week of 1958, showed that nearly a quarter of them had problems with basic maths that were sufficiently serious to have a significant impact on their everyday life. The proportion was in fact much higher for maths than for reading, despite adult literacy problems getting more public attention. These people were too old to have been using calculators in their early school years.

[Demeter]

45. They Probably Were Confused by the "New Math"

It came into fashion about that time--it was great for kids at certain level, but not the way to start one's mathematical existence!

[LeftishBrit]

55. Maths teaching was not well-co-ordinated at that time in the UK.

School instruction suffers from excessive central direction nowadays, but at that time it was at the opposite extreme, and your education could depend completely on the wishes of a particular school or teacher. I know someone who attributes her poor maths and spelling to the fact that her headteacher was ONLY interested in Tudor history, and that was the main thing the pupils got taught!

I was born a few years later than the group of people in the study that I mentioned, but still within the range of time where the same educational techniques were being used. In my own experience, maths teaching, depending on when your current teacher had received their training, tended to lurch between the New Math, which was indeed often confusing and seemed to consist largely of potted set theory, and very traditional training in memorizing already-outdated facts about weights and measures, etc.

[enlightenment]

200. OH, finally. Thank you.

I'm a victim of New Math. It took years to undo the damage - particularly when they decided, when I started 8th grade, that New Math was no good and reverted back to Old Math. Good grief. And our parents wondered why we turned to drugs?

I'm an historian, btw, (teach college) and I've found this a very interesting discussion. I have to say, though, that there is a whole lot of "broadbrushing" going on.

People are different, we all learn differently. No single method is going to work for every student. Just sayin'!

Peace (and I'll leave all you math fiends to it!!)

[Demeter]

47. I'm Recommending This Thread Because I Am an Engineer

and this is an important National Security issue. Our educational "System" is too prone to fad and fantasy, as if 2000 years of pedagogy which brought us this far was all wrong, and the modern Educator (who is neither particularly literate or scientific, IMO) is some kind of God/Prophet who will rescue us all from Ignorance and Sin. Well, since the beginning of this modern nonsense, Ignorance and Sin have grown by leaps and bounds!

Furthermore, anything tainted by BushCo must be discarded and reinvented from primary sources.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

71. See my post #70 in this thread

I agree with you.

[UU_Mom]

56. Parent of 3rd grader weighs in...

My daughter is in third grade at a suburban public school in Wisconsin. This is her first year in the school (we still lived in the city until this past fall), and consequently her first experience with Everyday Mathematics.

My husband and I hate Everyday Mathematics with an all-consuming passion. Our dislike has nothing to do with calculators, however, since her teacher rarely allows the students to use them.

It has everything to do with giving kids three, four, or more ways to solve relatively simple arithmetic problems. That approach may work for some kids, maybe even for most kids. But for my kid, who has zero aptitude for math (but reads well above grade level in both English and Spanish), it adds a layer of complexity to what is already a bewildering and uninteresting subject. If one of us sits with her and gives her a clue as to which method she should use for solving the problem, then she can usually puzzle out the answer.

Also, there seems to be an extreme overemphasis on place-value knowledge, an over-reliance on this knowledge for solving problems, and no corresponding emphasis on simple arithmetic. For example, it's useful to know that 60+40 and 600+400 are related to 6+4. But if she's never properly learned that 6+4=10, place-value knowledge won't help in the least. Likewise, 14+16 and 140+160 are related, but if she doesn't know that 14+16=30, what good is that knowledge? And don't even get me started on multiplication tables. When I visit the school, I routinely see fourth and fifth graders counting on their fingers to figure out simple multiplication and division problems.

Everyday Mathematics is well-intentioned, I think, using games and real-world examples to teach mathematical concepts. But without a good deal of supplementing those concepts at home by using flash cards to teach basic arithmetic, those concepts cannot be applied correctly. The kids understand the concepts, but not the numbers. As another post intimated, it's akin to trying to learn Debussy's "Moonlight Sonata" without knowing where all the sharps and flats are on the keyboard.

Interestingly enough, I have talked to teachers who love this textbook and say it's completely revolutionized and revitalized they way they approach math. So I think the program has potential. But I wish the teachers would spend a bit more time really talking to the parents of students who are struggling with it. My daughter's math homework takes hours longer than it used to at the urban public school -- and engenders a lot more tears. In my opinion, this is not the way to instill an appreciation for mathematics in students.

Then again, I feel the same way about the nightly reading logs elementary-age children must keep. But that's a whole other topic. :-)

[Demeter]

58. It Gets Better

The later book has problems with no solutions! Just to totally discourage the lost souls.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

70. Teachers tend to like it

because it's more interesting to teach than "rote" math. It introduces a lot of concepts to children in the span of a year - less drudgery. They've been trained to think this is a good thing. Walk into an elementary math classroom, and you see kids generally "engaged" in learning. My kids all liked their math classes in elementary school. Many concepts were introduced, although without staying on top of my kids education, few concepts would have been mastered.

Unfortunately, those nations which spend more time on understanding and memorizing basic math skills in the early grades - learning fewer skills per year - are all beating the pants off of Americans when it comes to math. Their students hold the majority of slots in our math related masters and doctoral programs.

Basically, university departments of education and textbook publishers have ruined math in this country.

[Oak2004]

86. Has your kid been evaluated for dyscalculia?

It's a real learning disability, and it comes in two flavors (associated with two separate parts of the brain/ two distinct aspects of mathematics). Persons with one flavor characteristically have problems with arithmetic and not with geometry. Persons with the other flavor find geometry (and many of the more abstract dimensions of mathematics) difficult, but arithmetic and other concrete calculations (even advanced calculations) easy.

I know a lot about first species of dyscalculia because I have it, and it is the kind most often recognized because it can superficially resemble dyslexia-with-numbers (not the same thing, but something more likely to be known to educators). But research has shown the second kind exists, too, and that may well be the kind your daughter has.

If your kid has dyscalculia, of either variety, she might need a different approach to learning those dimensions of math which give her difficulty. Unfortunately, you might also have a fight on your hands getting your school system to recognize dyscalculia, depending upon how enlightened your school system is on the matter.

[UU_Mom]

195. Never heard of dyscalculia, but....

I have never heard of dyscalculia, but it would explain a lot -- about me and my family, as much as anything. I am the fourth of five children, the daughter of an engineer and a teacher, and the only one of the five who struggled with math. But I had a very particular kind of struggle. I had to take freshman algebra twice, but aced geometry even as most of my classmates struggled with it. Geometry made sense. Algebra did not and does not to this day. Had I graduated from high school one year later, after the state university's math requirements changed, I would never have graduated from college, because I would not have been able to pass a second and third semester of math. (I was only required to take one, thank goodness, and graduated with high honors, despite the C- in Finite Mathematics.)

So I will ask my daughter's teacher about dyscalculia. She's doing her math homework right now, and it's amazing to me how much she struggles with what ought to be routine problems. Fortunately, she does exceptionally well in all other academic subjects. I'm not too worried about her. She's never going to be an engineer, clearly, but I'm cool with that.

Thanks for the tip!

[LeftishBrit]

202. In case it's useful, here's a link to the British Dyslexia Association's description of dyscalculia

http://www.bdadyslexia.org.uk/dyscalculia.html

You might also be interested in the e-mail discussion group about mathematical difficulties and interventions:

www.numeracyintervention.net

[UU_Mom]

203. Thank you!

I will definitely follow up on this!

[proud2BlibKansan]

89. The reason kids are taught several ways to solve a problem

is because not everyone solves the same problem the same way. Kids are wired differently. For example, some kids write problems out horizontally and solve them correctly and do it faster than kids using the vertical approach that has been traditionally taught. Some kids chunk numbers and do calculation very efficiently. (for example, they think of 26 as 20 and 6)

Place value knowledge is absolutely vital. You need it to not only do simple computation, but to count money, and to tell time. I cannot imagine teaching even the most basic arithmetic without including instruction in place value.

As I stated earlier in this thread, it is far more important that kids understand the WHYs in Math before memorizing the WHATs. That is good sound instructional practice based on research and many many years of practice.

What is your concern about reading logs? Does your child not read at home? I can't imagine why else you would be complaining about a practice (keeping the log) that takes only minutes a night to do. Of course, if she is NOT reading then it would be tough to complete the reading log.

[UU_Mom]

198. I realize kids think differently....

Believe me. Mine thinks differently from virtually any I have ever encountered, even after having been a teacher myself and helped to raise several nieces and nephews. So I appreciate the abandonment of one-size-fits-all education in favor of more personalized and personal educational methods.

At this point, however, the nightly struggle over math homework has really disrupted our household. Sports activities and music lessons have been routinely skipped because the homework just takes so long and is so difficult for her. The first difficulty is that she can't figure out which method to apply to different kinds of problems. The second difficulty is that, once she figures out which method to use, she has trouble with the actual computations. If either one of those difficulties were erased, either by having only one solution method or a more solid grounding in basic math facts, this would all go a lot easier. As it is, once she finishes the nightly battle with the Everyday Mathematics journal pages, she knows she will then have to spend 15 minutes with those wonderful triangular flash cards. It's drudgery, and time we all dread, every single night.

Weirdly enough, she mastered money and time without ever knowing what place-value was. She calculates change quickly and efficiently, and can read an analog clock better than I can. It's almost as if those two concepts occupy completely different parts of her brain, ones that she cannot access when she's doing regular math. She knows that if an item costs $4.79 and she hands over $5.00, she will get $.21 back in change. But 500-479 makes no sense to her whatsoever. Honestly, I don't know what to make of that. It's deeply weird.

As for the reading log comment: Of course she reads at home. As the child of an English major and a Journalism major, she would be disowned if she did not! But the nightly reading log has gotten out of hand. I don't think I would object to just a sheet of paper that required her to jot down the title of the book and either the time spent or the number of pages read. But one year, the teacher required both of those things, plus a minimum of five complete sentences about what she read. She was seven at the time, and doing the equivalent of a book report every single night, on top of whatever other homework she had. Furthermore, she was reading the earliest Harry Potter books and was only able to get through three or four pages a night, so her sentences tended to be perfunctory at best: "Harry went to the Gryffindor Common Room. He patted Hedwig. He wrote one scroll on the Troll Wars. He talked to Hermione and Ron. He went to bed." Not a lot of plot happens in four pages of a Harry Potter novel. If the teacher didn't send the log back with a comment about her handwriting (which, admittedly, is pretty bad), she sent it back with the instruction that my daughter should write more about what she read.

In order to keep reading from becoming a chore that year, we figured out how to game the teacher's system. On Saturday, we went to the library and checked out five books that were at the average seven-year-old's reading level. She read them all at once, then wrote her reading log on Sunday for submission on Monday. Then she could read her Harry Potter books and enjoy them for the rest of the week. My concern about the reading logs is that we are creating a nation of kids who will never read for pleasure, because the "20 Minutes a Day" concept has sucked the enjoyment right out of it. I'm fully aware of what reading more can do for a kid's vocabulary, reading comprehension, retention, etc. I'm also fully aware that forcing any kid to do anything makes it as unappealing as brushing their teeth and taking their nightly bath. It becomes a chore, not a joy. Maybe not for my kid, who is a good reader, but for the kid who is not.

Of course, that's just my opinion, based on my observations of one kid.

[mike_c]

205. I'm going to defend that practice...

...and I'm sure you're not going to like my defense, but give me a moment. As a university prof, one of my greatest frustrations is that too many students can't figure out "three, four, or more ways to solve relatively simple arithmetic problems." Seriously. The solution to the problem is only one outcome. Sure, that's what you're interested in if you're shooting a ballistic object and want some assurance regarding where it will land, but for that problem, any one of the several ways to arrive at a solution will do, and choosing one is usually just a matter of convenience-- for someone who has choices, at least.

But the FAR more important academic and intellectual skill is an ability to deconstruct and frame problems in terms of several alternative routes to a solution. Someone up thread mentioned that students should simply "know" that 7 x 9 = 63, by rote, but I say that it's just as valuable to know that (7 x 10 = 70) - 7 = 63 and ((7 x 5) x 2) - 7) = 63 and so on-- the more ways they can frame a means to solve the problem, the better. THAT'S the important skill.

[UU_Mom]

208. Oh, I don't disagree.

I'm fully with you on the critical thinking part and the ability to identify several different ways to solve the same problem. That's a valuable skill to have in any discipline. We are all "word people" at my house, and we have instilled in our daughter the importance of using numerous methods to decode words or phrases she doesn't understand. Armed with context clues, a few basic word origins, the ability to identify common prefixes and suffixes, and a good dictionary, she is ready to tackle almost any book she would want to read. The same concept can certainly be applied to math problems.

But just look at the examples you gave. There's a lot of basic arithmetic in there that has to be performed before you arrive at the correct answer, regardless of how you got that answer. If you don't know that 9+1=10, 7x10=70 and 70-7=63, it doesn't matter that you know three different ways to solve the problem. You still can't solve it. Both the methodologies and the basic facts have to be taught. In my experience with Everyday Math, there's a lot of methodology, but not so much basic computation. To go back to the literacy example, it's like expecting a kid to be able to decode a word such as "antifundamentalist" without telling her what "anti," "fundamental," and the suffix "ist" signify. She knows how to take the word apart (she knows what a prefix, root, and suffix are), but she doesn't know what they mean. It's just frustrating for the kid (and the parent who is trying to help with the homework).

I think -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- what you're getting at is intellectual flexibility. I am wholeheartedly for intellectual flexibility. If I weren't, would I be surfing a site like this? Probably not! It just seems to me that in the early grades of a subject like math, where every problem has one provably correct answer, memorizing the answers along with teaching multiple ways to solve the problem is the most logical way to move on to more complex work. When my daughter can't solve 600-430 because she first mixes up all the methods due to her inability to keep them straight, then makes mistakes in the computation because she can't reliably remember that 10-3=7, then I see that as a problem. If at this point in her life she had just one consistent way to solve the problem, one hard and fast rule, I think she could do it. But the methods are all jumbled in her head, and her facts are shaky. It's a recipe for frustration.

What really concerns me is this: Teachers have a number of ways to encourage and help reluctant readers. Why is there no similar consideration for reluctant mathematicians? I suspect Everyday Mathematics was developed to address this very problem by giving the kids lots of games to play, manipulatives to work with, and methodologies to apply. In theory, the wide variety of activities should be enough to keep every type of learner interested and stimulated. I don't think it's always working that way. Fortunately, my daughter has an exceptional teacher who is more than willing to give her more basic, foundational work in math, and more stimulating work in everything else. I wonder if every kid in the Everyday Mathematics program is so lucky.

[Shanti Mama]

229. Parent of 5th and 6th graders, in EM since day 1

and we all LOVE it. Each year my children become stronger in their basic skills and more sophisticated in their critical analysis. And, they use different methods to solve problems. For us, having multiple ways to figure out an answer is great as they learn in such different ways.

EM is a spiraling curriculum so it does present the equivalent of Moonlight Sonata relatively early, but then reintroduces it each year so the child 'hears' a different layer/aspect of the 'song.'

I envy my children. They have drilled and learned their basics, but not to the exclusion of having fun, doing ALGEBRA and GEOMETRY at sophisticated levels. I'm sorry your child has such a tough time with it.

[Shanti Mama]

230. Parent of 5th and 6th graders, in EM since day 1

and we all LOVE it. Each year my children become stronger in their basic skills and more sophisticated in their critical analysis. And, they use different methods to solve problems. For us, having multiple ways to figure out an answer is great as they learn in such different ways.

EM is a spiraling curriculum so it does present the equivalent of Moonlight Sonata relatively early, but then reintroduces it each year so the child 'hears' a different layer/aspect of the 'song.'

I envy my children. They have drilled and learned their basics, but not to the exclusion of having fun, doing ALGEBRA and GEOMETRY at sophisticated levels. I'm sorry your child has such a tough time with it.

[Buzz Clik]

258. Excellent post.

I totally agree:

It has everything to do with giving kids three, four, or more ways to solve relatively simple arithmetic problems. That approach may work for some kids, maybe even for most kids. But for my kid, who has zero aptitude for math (but reads well above grade level in both English and Spanish), it adds a layer of complexity to what is already a bewildering and uninteresting subject. If one of us sits with her and gives her a clue as to which method she should use for solving the problem, then she can usually puzzle out the answer.

I have no idea if Everyday Math is what our kids used, but it was quite a strain on the kids at times. They'd have to learn these bizarre, totally non-intuitive estimation methods, when the kids were totally capable of adding or substracting numbers in their heads.

Example: estimate 647+218. There are many ways to estimate the answer with variable degrees of accuracy. But adding this numbers straight up is absolutely no task at all.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

69. This is a sound decision

The only thing making it political or religious are the people defending the book...

"The seven Republican board members, all social or religious conservatives, who voted to block the McGraw-Hill book complained that it didn't do enough to help students memorize multiplication tables and prematurely encouraged the use of calculators."

Who cares what their beliefs are if the book it teaching kids they should not memorize their multiplication tables they are flawed.. Its bad enough they are letting kids use them on the SAT's now were going to go back even further?

[proud2BlibKansan]

91. No it isn't a sound decision because it's not true

Several teachers have commented on this thread who have experience teaching this program. Perhaps their comments would be helpful to you.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

95. I have teaching experience

At advanced levels and I can tell you first hand that these kids will look like a deer in the headlights when presented with a problem that requires even moderately advanced algebra where you cant type in the formula on a calculator. Any basic level program which says 'there is no reason to have your multiplication tables memorized' is as useless as one that says 'just memorize anything'.

Ive seen kids have to spend their first whole year of college taking remedial math because they cant keep up in the regular math classes.

[proud2BlibKansan]

99. No one is advocating not teaching them multiplication tables

The newer approach at the elementary level is to teach critical thinking and understanding BEFORE making kids memorize facts. We focus for a much longer time on place value and build an understanding of number sense and algebraic concepts.

What it means is that kids are proficient with times tables in 5th grade instead of 3rd grade.

Everyday Math and similar programs are relatively new, so any students you have had on the college level would not have had these programs. The kids you have taught were forced to memorize facts. And you can see how well that worked!

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

101. Its not working..

"The newer approach at the elementary level is to teach critical thinking and understanding BEFORE making kids memorize facts"

A kid at 7 is a whole lot better at memorization than critical thinking..

"What it means is that kids are proficient with times tables in 5th grade instead of 3rd grade. "

What it means is they are not proficient with *either* by the 5th grade, Ive tutored enough 9-12 kids to know this.

"Everyday Math and similar programs are relatively new"

They are more than 20 years old..

[proud2BlibKansan]

103. If you really think that teaching kids to memorize information is sound instructional practice,

then we don't have much more to discuss here.

I also doubt you have much training in education yourself if you really believe that.

Tutoring a few kids (who are obviously having trouble or they wouldn't need tutoring) is not equal to research done by experts at universities whose life work is studying how kids best learn. So I will go with THEIR conclusions rather than your opinions.

Everyday Math is a new program. I looked at copies of every grade level text book before I replied this morning. Maybe they had a program 20 years ago, but the one in the OP is the new one. Surely, if you really are a teacher, you realize that textbooks are frequently updated. I don't know any school (well maybe a homeschool) that would use a textbook that is 20 years old.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

104. Thats not what I said...

"then we don't have much more to discuss here. "

Is there a part of "Any basic level program which says 'there is no reason to have your multiplication tables memorized' is as useless as one that says 'just memorize anything'." that was hard to understand?

I think everyday match goes too far to one end of the spectrum, the goal is to end up in the middle..

"I also doubt you have much training in education yourself if you really believe that. "

Nope, just allot of experience... Both in and out of the classroom at the 9-12+ levels

"but the one in the OP is the new one."

A new edition with a few teaks is not a new program.

"f you really are a teacher, you realize that textbooks are frequently updated. "

Yup and many times the updates end up being to grammar and exercises. I have had classes using four editions of the same book simultaneously (spanning 15 years) needing only to provide my own handouts for homework questions.

"I don't know any school (well maybe a homeschool) that would use a textbook that is 20 years old."

In terms of math many

[proud2BlibKansan]

108. Maybe textbook adoption is different at the high school level

In elementary school, we get new textbooks at least every 5 years. This year we added a second Math program. We are now using Everyday Math as a supplement. Our teachers liked it but felt we needed another program to teach more problem solving and data analysis.

You really should do some research into elementary Math approaches. Then you will understand where the kids are and what kind of background they have when they get to high school. For example, every single one of my 5th graders can make a graph and analyze the data. But they have to stop and think about times tables, especially the higher ones. I would much rather they know and understand data analysis than spit out memorized facts that have no meaning. And the majority of my colleagues at the elementary level agree with me.

My dad taught secondary History, and I do know that he had a new textbook every couple years. But he retired almost 20 years ago.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

152. Fifth graders who don't know their facts? That's a shame

"For example, every single one of my 5th graders can make a graph and analyze the data. But they have to stop and think about times tables, especially the higher ones. I would much rather they know and understand data analysis than spit out memorized facts that have no meaning. And the majority of my colleagues at the elementary level agree with me."

Fifth graders shouldn't have to "think" about the times' tables. If these students hadn't spent so much time reading graphs and drawing little venn diagrams in second grade, they would be better prepared to analyze the data AND know their math facts in fifth grade!

[proud2BlibKansan]

162. Well obviously I disagree

and since my school makes AYP every year we can have that test score conversation and I can prove that I do know what I am talking about. In other words, these same kids meet the state standards so they are considered proficient.

Graphs and Venn Diagrams are very important. Only a math illiterate would argue with that.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

165. I wish I had a teacher like you.

I love your posts P2bL. This thread is especially important to me. I had a math teacher when I was in elementary and middle school that constantly harped on the importance of memorization. It got me NOWHERE past seventh grade.

[Maestro]

190. Amen.

I was forced to learn tables in primary school and it got me nowhere because no one taught me how to think using numbers to solve problems. I swore I would never do that to the kids in my classroom. I taught my kids to analyze and think.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

167. Graphs and venn diagrams ARE NOT important to a second grader's education

The point I was making is that nations with higher math scores spend more time on basic math concepts in elementary grades. They build more slowly, but surely. By middle school, they outperform our kids, and their math and science students fill our universities.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

163. The thing is, after about seventh grade "math facts" don't matter anymore.

It's all about critical thinking. I had elementary school teachers and middle school teachers that were all about facts. I could multiply, divide, add, and subtract perfectly in my head. It was worth JACK SHIT in eighth grade, high school and college when we came up against algebra, geometry, trig and calc. They give you a calculator, they give you the formulas and they give you a word problem. The key is knowing how to use the tools given to solve the problem.


The fact of the matter is, in everyday life, we do have calculators. You CAN look up any formula online in about six seconds. Yes you should know these things, but we all have easy access to them. If, however, you have no idea how to use these tools to see the bigger picture, knowing how to multiply in your head is not going to help you.

[pipoman]

212. I couldn't disagree more

now it may be true that high school and college math has little to do with basic tables, I will give you that.

But to say it is useless or even not very useful is completely wrong, IMO. EVERY HUMAN should, by the time they can drive be able to quickly, in their head determine how much gasoline they will get for their $10, know roughly how much their restaurant ticket will be, know roughly how much sales tax will be on their purchase, know how to figure their approximate fuel mileage, know how much change they should get back after a purchase and one million other simple day to day uses for math tables that everyone from the garbage man to the neurosurgeon needs to know.

"The fact of the matter is, in everyday life, we do have calculators. You CAN look up any formula online in about six seconds. Yes you should know these things, but we all have easy access to them."

I don't need a calculator or an internet connection in everyday life. I know how to use one if I want to but I know how to use my head and a pen to figure out nearly every math problem I encounter. I am not a scientist or engineer, nor are the vast majority of the population.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

217. First of all, if you read what the teachers who have taught this curriculum say

Memorization of the basic multiplication tables is not left out, so the argument that the book doesn't teach them is completely bogus. Secondly, what good is knowing that 3*7 =21 if you can't apply that knowledge to anything? THAT is the key that I think a lot of people are missing.

It's great to be able to solve math problems in your head. It's great if you are able to look at a problem and figure out how to solve it. It's outstanding if you are able to do both and ideally that is how it should be. However if you need to know only one, the more important one IMHO is knowing HOW to solve it. You can look up the actual number crunching on a calculator or write it out on a piece of paper if you aren't very confident in your own math skills. You cannot easily look up the reasoning behind the problem in a book.

[pipoman]

222. I have read that nonsense

written by apologists for a failed system which puts American math students behind third world countries in math comprehension.

But the basis of my post was in response to your post:

The fact of the matter is, in everyday life, we do have calculators. You CAN look up any formula online in about six seconds. Yes you should know these things, but we all have easy access to them. If, however, you have no idea how to use these tools to see the bigger picture, knowing how to multiply in your head is not going to help you.

and now I completely disagree with this statement:

Secondly, what good is knowing that 3*7 =21 if you can't apply that knowledge to anything? THAT is the key that I think a lot of people are missing.

To make the argument that people who have, since the beginning of education, been learning their tables don't understand that 7x3=7+7+7 is so far wrong it is unbelievable anyone can state it with a straight face. To argue that people who have learned their tables do not understand how to apply them to groceries or any other everyday application is simply fabrication and complete nonsense of the highest order. The only reason people can't understand how to apply them is because they don't know them because they were never required to learn them by their school or their parents. It is sad to see a high school senior working at McDonald's, getting decent grades not be able to make change for a dollar without a calculator or cash register. I am sure they are a whiz at graphing. It is failure on the part of parents, teachers and school administrators everywhere.

The curriculum in question may or may not be good, I don't know for sure. What it does sound like to me is that the school board who declined the curriculum were operating from what they believed to be best for the students. Certainly there are no educators here who will argue that this curriculum is the only curriculum capable of teaching math to elementary students.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

223. That is not what I meant.

There are more problems we face in our lives than making change. Critical thinking skills are vital. They allow people to see things from different angles. As the poster below pointed out, this is why many math teachers have "calculator problems". These problems make the actual arithmetic secondary to the "why" and the "how". They get the student motivated to search out an answer.

So yes, vastly oversimplified when I said you couldn't apply times tables to anything. You can apply them to making change, figuring out tips, etc. But that doesn't help you when you come up against a problem where you aren't told the steps to take to find a solution.

I excelled in math and I thank the critical thinking I learned from my high school teachers for that. It's not fair that teachers in this thread are getting trashed for teaching BOTH the times tables and critical thinking to their students.

[pipoman]

240. And my point is

in my post #239 below. #239 started as an answer to your post and grew to encompass my entire point in this thread.

[nick303]

216. Wtf kind of data are 5th graders realistically going to be analyzing?

Yeah any elementary schooler can make a bar graph. Just about anyone is taught that. Anything much more complex than that and you have to have an understanding of what a function is, which means you have to understand that a function is the relation of one quantity to another, and if you are doing that it would behoove you to be well grounded in mental arithmetic.

[nick303]

215. This is bad

At one point I thought it would be better if we started teaching algebra earlier than we do in this country, but that was mainly because my parents taught me and drilled me on the multiplication tables to the point where I knew them pretty cold early in the 1st grade.

While I was fairly bored with math for the rest of elementary school, I've realized I was mistaken by hoping for that. I have to appreciate that the vast majority of 3rd graders are not ready to understand what even simple abstract concepts such as what a 'variable' is.

With that out of the way, the part about not knowing times tables until 5th grade is just really ugly and your entire argument should just be thrown out on that alone.

[Ezlivin]

97. Wait until they have to do a massive recall of Chinese-made calculators

"You mean that 4 x 12 does not equal 46?"

Has everyone forgotten the math problems that a particular Intel chip had just a few years ago?

A math error found in all of the Intel Corporation's top-of-the-line Pentium microprocessors is proving to be a continuing public relations nightmare for the world's largest chip maker.

At a computer industry conference that began here today, two of the largest computer makers tried to play down the growing public alarm about the error the chip makes in rare cases while doing high-precision division operations.

...

Another computer company that had a similar problem many years ago responded very differently, according to Richard Doherty, publisher of Envisioneering, a computer industry technical newsletter.

He said that when he was a college student in 1973, Hewlett-Packard had found a multiplication error in its HP-35 calculator that affected the accuracy of calculations beyond five significant digits. The company bent over backward to reach its users to tell them of the error and offer to replace the machine.

[0rganism]

166. interesting thread; I wonder what they'd think about the "abacus system"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus_system

In summary, the "abacus system" teaches mental calculations through practice with an abacus, it's popular in countries such as Japan and China. Early on, students use a real abacus, and familiarize themselves with the variety of calculations that can be performed with it. Later, they learn to abstract the abacus mentally, and do calculations using a mental representation of the abacus.

Many students are able to do arithmetic exceedingly fast using this approach -- hard math, too, problems we'd likely offload to calculators. Through extensive practice, long multiplication that would take most of us a minute to do on paper can be completed in seconds, all in the mind. Some extraordinary students develop a heightened numerical intuition that we'd commonly attribute to certain autistic savants, but as the result of successful practice rather than genetic fluke.

I mention this apparent tangent because the abacus is a calculator -- a primitive one, to be sure, one that requires direct human operation at every stage. Because this tool can be completely conceptualized and operated in the mind, doesn't that place it on the order of a mental system ("new math", e.g.) rather than a crutch? It seems to me, the abacus system holds a respectable middle ground, a position unfettered by rote memorization yet not reliant on an electronic servant.

Would such a system be repulsive to our Texas textbook screeners?

[midlife_mo_Jo]

174. I read something about that years ago

One of the reasons learning with an abacus works so well in these countries is because they tend to use only the abacus, or use other manipulatives very rarely. They spend a lot of time with the abacus and can thus conceptualize math on it quite clearly. Again, it's a matter of "less is more."

[0rganism]

183. it is more ingrained in their culture, but also adequate to their needs

A person in modern Japan, South Korea, Singapore, or Malaysia could almost certainly acquire an electronic calculator if they wished, but its necessity is much diminished if one carries a high-speed abacus in one's mind. As part of the training, abacus students take mental arithmetic tests on a regular basis that I'd bet would stump almost all of us here, and they calculate results far faster than we could even enter the problems on calculator touch-pad.

I remember one chapter in Dr. Feynman's autobiography, he meets up with an abacus user in a cafe' and they have a math-off. The abacus blows him away on all the basics -- the guy can do simple and extended arithmetic ops way faster on the abacus than Feynman can on paper. Then they try square roots. Feynman picks up some ground there. Cube roots, it's close to even. When it comes to stuff like non-base 10 logarithms and differential equations, the abacus guy doesn't stand a chance, doesn't even know where to start. But that's a whole different ballgame, because anyone who does physics for a living is probably going to be faster at calculus than someone who doesn't, whether they use an abacus or a calculator for arithmetic.

I think it comes down to this: What are people aiming for with early math education? If understanding decimal places, factorization, fractions, orders of magnitude, mixed operators, spatial relationships and iterative approximations is where we're headed, then calculators of any kind (abaci included) are likely more distraction than aid. Of course, the proponents of the abacus system claim it helps with concentration and memorization skills, but it's not clear that a mental abacus is superior to a calculator in most day-to-day activities, and it does take considerable practice to conceptually master the abacus.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

184. I agree, but little

kids probably can conceptualize better with one manipulative - the abacus - than with many - an abacus, popsicle sticks, rods, little pigs, sheep, goats, little cut out squares of paper, etc. :) By using the abacus, kids are conceptualizing place value in a way that you can't do with 57 little manipulatives.

[insleeforprez]

169. You need both

the ability to do mental math AND to understand what a calculator can do for you. Times tables up to 12 should be memorized, people should know how to add and do long division, but I would say that it is perfectly reasonable to use a calculator to, say, integrate a complicated function (say, sin^4) or do complicated arithmetic, so long as the arithmetic isn't the point of the problem.

FWIW, I'm at MIT (albeit a freshman), and the only thing for which I have used a calculator is some chemistry (Planck's constant and the Boltzmann constant tend not to be fun numbers). In high school, most of my math tests had two parts: calculator and non-calculator. A good balance is essential.

[Justitia]

194. Agree. IMO, you start using calculators w/trig, maybe a little w/algebra. I'm an accountant

by training and we are taught to ALWAYS use calculators in our profession - to not do so is considered irresponsible to your client / company / employer.
In fact, accountants are really supposed to use 10 keys and keep your tapes for support back-up.
Of course we all write formulas into spreadsheet programs nowadays.

Being an accountant has made my mental math skills deteriorate because it is ingrained in me to always use a 10 key and not just do math in my head. I must admit (as other accountants will probably too), the methodical & repetitive activity of entering long lists of numbers into a 10 key becomes a soothing exercise - especially if it actually has paper in it - LOL!

I could probably use the refresher of re-learning my "times tables" - LOL again.

For the record, I sucked at all math past Geometry. Accounting is not math, it's money.
I'm VERY GOOD with money.
;-)

[Fredda Weinberg]

207. Oddly enuf, there wasn't enuf time on physics exams for twinkle boxes

I was prepared by a brilliant man, who warned me to memorize my multiplication tables and darn, he was absolutely right.

[pipoman]

214. Well said and great post

One of my photographic mentors (though he didn't consider himself a photographer) is The Great Harold "Doc" Edgerton of MIT. A truly outstanding school.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

218. I agree.

Many times the number crunching isn't the point of the problem. It is the "how" that is important.

[tomg]

225. From what I can see, the issue here is not

whether one can or can not use calculators or whether the use of such calculators aids or hinder learning ( the emphasis on rote memorization is far more troubling, but that is a different issue). That seems simply to be the flash point. It concerns the fact that the seven conservatives seem to be flouting their power as members of the board and are indirectly challenging the 1995 law mentioned in the article. Frankly, I would be far more worried that they are using something like this - which is apparently a "politically free" subject - in order first to establish a particular pedagogy and using that as a means to much more directly influence content.

I also imagine that there is far more intelligent and meaningful discussion here on DU regarding whether it is or is not sound than ever took place on the Texas Board vote. This is far larger than the Texas Board and a third grade math book. If this book is banned throughout Texas, McGraw-Hill will lose a large part of their market, since it is an entire state. Since that group ( the Texas board) is one of the largest groups that buys textbooks en masse in the country, McGraw-Hill makes changes accordingly. In areas like social studies or science and the like, the changes are profound. It is not what conservatives manage to get in so much as what they manage to eliminate that causes the problems.

[pipoman]

239. After reading and participating in this entire thread,

I feel that every single student, regardless of their lot in life, benefits and needs to know their multiplication and division tables to function at a minimal level in our society. The students who are destined for greatness in academia will use these skills every day of their lives too. Critical thinking, graphing, functions, etc. are all nice and important for people to function at a higher level. It is my belief that first things should be first and the sooner (younger) a student knows their tables as second nature the easier it is to teach them and the longer they have to practice them and integrating them into their everyday lives.

I believe this statement from post #103 and a very articulate teacher in this thread is very telling and sums up the real problem perfectly.

Surely, if you really are a teacher, you realize that textbooks are frequently updated. I don't know any school (well maybe a homeschool) that would use a textbook that is 20 years old.

School texts are huge business. McGraw Hill is huge business. Without constantly "updating" curriculum, then effectively selling the necessity of these updates to the teaching staff and admin of schools, there is no reason not to keep texts for 20 years. I believe that much if not most of this so called research which leads to these new types of teaching the same old subjects is funded for a single purpose, to sell books. What is the worst thing that has happened to McGraw Hill over the years when one of these so called new systems proved to be less than effective? Sale of more books! What has the cost of the failed curriculum on American society? Failure of entire generations to be competitive with the rest of the world. The issues raised in this thread are, IMO, some of the most important societal issues faced by our country.

What is the answer to concern by intelligent parents right here in this thread (ironically by the same school teachers and admin who are constantly saying parents don't get involved in their children's education)? Shut the F up! I am the teacher, you know nothing! What experience do you have as a teacher? I as a teacher will tell you what is best and by dog you'll like it!

So pardon me if I don't give a pinch of poop (to quote one of my favorite DUers) what these masters of academe say on this common sense issue. Teach kids the basics first and quit buying into the latest book selling scheme and get on with your teaching pleeeze!

edit..spelling

[midlife_mo_Jo]

248. You wouldn't believe the wasted tax dollars on books

When my last two kids finished kindergarten, they came home with an entire set of workbooks for teaching reading that were never used - something like ten or fifteen in a set. The teachers didn't like them at this particular school, so they didn't use them, which is just fine with me, since I didn't think they were very good, either. However, with no local control, the books were foisted on them, anyway.

Our school district has a huge warehouse book giveaway every few years. Many have never been used. Others are in great condition, but not the latest edition. How often do we need to change first grade reading texts? I'd rather see the money go to teacher pay.

And then there's the schools that don't have enough money for books....