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Human rights minister brands Muammar Gaddafi's visit to France a ‘kiss of death’

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SpikeTss Donating Member (308 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 12:03 AM
Original message
Human rights minister brands Muammar Gaddafi's visit to France a ‘kiss of death’
Source: The Times

The youngest member of President Sarkozy’s Government made an outspoken attack on her boss yesterday for letting Muammar Gaddafi, the Libyan leader, treat France like a “doormat” for “wiping off the blood of his victims”.

Rama Yade, 31, the Minister for Human Rights, stole the show with her tirade as Colonel Gaddafi arrived in Paris for a five-day stay that he regards as sealing his return to international respectability.

...

Mr Sarkozy, after their talks, announced the conclusion of commercial contracts worth “a dozen billion euros” with Libya, including supply of a nuclear-powered plant for desalinating water.

...

Ms Yade, an appointee with no political experience, called the commercial contracts indecent but rejected calls to resign despite her disgust with the visit, which began on United Nations Human Rights Day.

“Colonel Gaddafi must understand that our country is not a doormat on which a leader, terrorist or not, can come and wipe the blood of his crimes off his feet. France should not receive this kiss of death,” she told Le Parisien newspaper.

Political insiders assume that Ms Yade will lose her job for overstepping the already wide limits that Mr Sarkozy allows his young protégées.

Read more: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3031384.ece



Ms. Rama Yade should be careful: Not that she'll be abducted and tortured by the Libyans, like many other foreigners in this scary country.
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. I wonder what this half-whit is blathering about.
Libya may or may not be a "terrorist state", but there are other states that have committed violent acts for political reasons, that exceed by many orders of magnitude, any crime the Libyan government is guilty of.

I wonder if this individual would make similar statements, if the leaders of the US or the UK or China visited France.


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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. She's "blathering" about Gaddafi's police state summary executions.
It doesn't mean France cannot trade with Libya, but there's nothing wrong with pointing out he's a mass murderer.
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Apparently, there is something wrong with it,
because she will likely be fired.

Again, I can't help but wonder if she would make similar statements about the hegemonic powers of the world and the crimes they commit.



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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-19-07 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. Does that mean that Cheney or Bush can't go to France? This French govt is closely allied with Bush.
and also Israel. What about their crimes?
hell, what about French crimes of terror?
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 06:41 AM
Response to Original message
2. Damn, what is the deal? Throughout my entire life I've waited hopefully
Edited on Tue Dec-11-07 06:42 AM by acmavm
for women to make their mark in politics and world leadership. And what the hell did we get? Disgraceful shits like Clinton, Pelosi, O'Connor (who knew better during the bush**/Gore fiasco), etc.

Then there are the low-level twits like this idiot.

What a disappointment. What an incredible disappointment.

edit: punctuation
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SpikeTss Donating Member (308 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. What's the deal?
The deal (was) that the Libyans cashed in almost half a billion dollar as ransom for nurses and doctors which they kidnapped while these people were actually trying to help improve the infrastructure and quality of life in this country. The nurses and doctors were rewarded with torture, so that some of them are now handicapped. Just to give you one example to what kind of country Mr. Sarkozy is giving bombs and fissile material.

On the other hand: No sane person goes to Libya to do business or even help this terrible country. You constantly have to fear for your life there.

It's very brave for this French woman to tell the truth. It's something you don't hear very often in politics these days. When there's money to make, people even applaud terror states like Libya.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yes, on the left they (like some posters here) . .
. . they call it "respecting their cultural values".
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Listen Spike, Gadaffi is here to stay whether you or anyone likes it or
not. Your outrage is great. It's also a waste of time. And you are very mistaken if you think his reputation has been cleaned up and his past sins have been forgiven. But he is a world leader, and he is a force to be reckoned with.

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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. He's just another two-bit asshole dictator, and . .
Edited on Tue Dec-11-07 12:10 PM by msmcghee
. . since he hates the US and Israel he'll find plenty of half/wit twits here to give him credibility
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. You have a lot of nerve calling anyone a nitwit considering some of the
crap you post.

Case in point, you're too stupid to understand that no one was defending him, just pointing out the reality of the situation. He is the leader Libya. But it would take an intellect to understand what's being said, wouldn't it. And that leaves you out in the cold.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. My post pointed out that those who give crebility to . .
Edited on Tue Dec-11-07 12:40 PM by msmcghee
. . two-bit dictator assholes - are half-wit twits - not "nit wits".

There's a fine line there. At least try to stay on the accurate side of it. ;)
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Are you taking your lame sick comedy act on the road soon? Israel has
nothing to be proud of. It's a country founded on terroristic tactics. This is not about Jewishness, it's about terror.

ISRAELI PRIME MINISTERS.

LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, D. BEN-GURION.

Qualifications: War Criminal. Like Hitler, gave the orders that others carried out.

Ben-Gurion and the Haganah became convinced that they would have to drive the British out if they were ever going to get their state. That required unity within the ranks of Zionism and they proposed a joint military campaign to the Irgun and Stern Gang who, until the autumn of 1945, they had solemnly proclaimed to be terrorists, fascists and madmen. And Begin, who, during the Saison, had put up wall posters comparing them to "Quisling and Laval", eagerly accepted. -- Quote from Haber, Menachem Begin, p.146.

Ben-Gurion was head of the Jewish Agency. After the adoption of the united front against the British, Ben-Gurion directed the terrorist "war" from the shadows. At this time, it was he who gave the "green light" for nearly all Jewish terrorist activity. The public relations disaster caused by the King David Hotel bombing, bought the detente with the Irgun and Stern Gang to an end (the Jewish Agency denounced the attack, claiming that the Irgun had violated its specifications as to when the bomb should be set). After directing the 1948 war to conquer Palestine and drive out its inhabitants, he became Prime Minister. An ideas man. It was his idea to create a civil war in Lebanon in order to establish a Maronite government that would align itself with Israel. Although it was difficult to ignite this civil war, their continual efforts over the years were eventually successful (and hundreds of thousands died). A truly evil man.

LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, M. SHARRETT.

Qualifications: Close associate of most the war criminals and terrorists mentioned. Believed in the aims of the war criminals, however, differed on the means of establishing those aims. For example, he tried to prevent the Qibia (Kibya) attack (ordered by D. Ben-Gurion and carried out by A. Sharon) fearing that such ruthless attacks (in this case a massacre) might alienate Western opinion.

LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, L. ESHKOL.

Qualifications: Although, not personally a terrorist, assassin or war criminal Eshkol organized the 1967 war which resulted in the largest expansion of the Jewish state ever.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, G. MEIR.

Qualifications: Singularly unsuited for the job of Prime Minister of Israel. Before becoming Prime Minister, was neither a known terrorist nor war criminal. However, in Feb. 1973, as Prime Minister, Golda Meir authorized the shooting down a Libyan civilian airliner over the Sinai by Israeli jet fighters, killing all 107 passengers and its French crew. So it seems she was more suited to the job than was initially apparent.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, Y. RABIN.

Qualifications: War Criminal. In 1948 (on instruction from Ben Gurion) ethnically cleansed some 70,000 Palestinians from Lydda and Ramleh. This included the massacre of several hundred resident civilians (to get them moving). In 1967 Rabin ordered the ethnic cleansing of some 5,000 from the villages of Emwas, Beit Nuba and Yalou and the dynamiting and bulldozing of their homes.

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, M. BEGIN.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Leader of the terrorist gang Irgun. Responsible for the Deir Yassin massacre, the bombing of the King David Hotel, etc, etc,...

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, Y. SHAMIR.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Operations commander of the terrorist Stern Gang. Together with Stern proposed a war-time alliance with Adolf Hitler and the establishment of a totalitarian Jewish state. Responsible (with Began) for the Deir Yassin massacre. The organiser of two infamous assassinations: the killing of Lord Moyne, the British Minister Resident for the Middle East, on 6 November 1944; and the slaying of Count Folke Bernadotte, the UN's special Mediator on Palestine, on 17 September 1948.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, S. PERES.

Qualifications: Plays "good cop". Close associate of all the war criminals and terrorists mentioned. Believes in the aims of the war criminals, just differs on the means. This war criminal was responsible for ordering the shelling and bombing of civilians. What Moshe Sharett had to say about Shimon Peres: "I have stated that I totally and utterly reject (Shimon) Peres and consider his rise to prominence a malignant, immoral disgrace. I will rend my clothes in mourning for the State if I see him become a minister in the Israeli government".

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, B. NETANYAHU.

Qualifications: Bungler thief/con-man. One of the more moral Israeli prime ministers. This war criminal was responsible for ordering the shelling and bombing of civilians (by Israeli military forces) in Lebanon.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, E. BARAK.

Qualifications: Assassin. In Beirut 1973, Barak (while dressed as a woman) assassinated the Palestinian leader Kamal Edwan, together with his wife and seven year old daughter. Other members of Barak's death squad, killed Abu Youssif al-Najar, the poet Kamal Nassar and their families.

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, A. SHARON.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Presided over the massacres of some 2-3,000 civilians at the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps in Beirut. Founded Unit 101 (a notorious death squad within the Israeli Defense Force). For many years, commanded cross-border Unit 101 raids, for example, the 1953 massacre at Qibia (Kibya) where civilians were blown up inside their houses (and shot dead if they tried to flee).

http://guardian.150m.com/palestine/war-criminals.htm



<snip>
The only 'small' difference is that Israeli aggression is the direct responsibility of Ariel Sharon, Benjamin Ben Eliezer, Shimon Peres and Shaul Mofaz, while the individual terrorist acts are done by individuals in despair, usually against Arafat's will. One hour after Arafat declared his support of a cease fire and wished the Jews a Happy Passover feast, a suicide bomber exploded himself in an hotel in Netanya, killing 22 innocent Jews celebrating Passover. Arafat was blamed as responsible for this act, and the present IDF offensive has been justified through this accusation.

At the same time, Sharon's responsibility for Israeli war crimes is being completely ignored. Who should be arrested for the targeted killing of almost 100 Palestinians? Who will be sent to jail for the killing of more than 120 Palestinian paramedics? Who will be sentenced for the killing of more than 1,200 Palestinians and for the collective punishment of more than 3,000,000 civilians during the last 18 months? And who will face the International Tribunal for the illegal settlement of occupied Palestinian Lands, and the disobedience of UN decisions for more than 35 years?

Suicide bombs killing innocent citizens must be unequivocally condemned; they are immoral acts, and their perpetrators should be sent to jail. But they cannot be compared to State terrorism carried out by the Israeli Government. The former are individual acts of despair of a people that sees no future, vastly ignored by an unfair and distorted international public opinion. The latter are cold and "rational" decisions of a State and a military apparatus of occupation, well equipped, financed and backed by the only superpower in the world.

Yet in the public debate, State terrorism and individual suicide bombs are not even considered as comparable cases of terrorism. The State terror and war crimes perpetrated by the Israeli Government are legitimized as "self-defense", while Arafat, even under siege, is demanded to arrest "terrorists."

I want to ask: Who will arrest Sharon, the person directly responsible for the orders to kill Palestinians? When is he going to be defined a terrorist too? How long will the world ignore the Palestinian cry that all they want is freedom and independence? When will it stop neglecting the fact that the goal of the Israeli Government is not security, but the continued occupation and subjugation of the Palestinian people?

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0401-04.htm

Ariel Sharon: From Sabra and Shatila to Jenin
EDWARD HERMAN
Z magazine, June 2002

<snip>

In a recent article in the New York Times, however, reporter James Bennet notes that the ratio of killings during the first Intifada, 25 Palestinians to 1 Israeli, has fallen in the current Intifada to 3 to I ("Mideast Turmoil: News Analysis: Mideast Balance Sheet," March 12, 2002). Neither Bennet nor the editors explain how the party victimized at a 25-1 ratio could be said to be the terrorists rather than the victims. But clearly, the decline to 3 to 1 calls for rectification by a good genocidist.

The notorious terrorist Carlos the Jackal was credited with 80-90 killings during his career. He is in prison. Ariel Sharon was responsible for some 66 to 70 civilian deaths in a raid on Qibya in October 1953 (two-thirds of the victims were women and children) and he was found, even by the Israeli Kahan commission, to have been " indirectly responsible" for the mass killings at Sabra and Shatila, estimated by various authorities as somewhere between 800 and 3,000 Palestinian civilians, a large fraction once again women and children. The Kahan commission was protecting Israel's own high official in making Sharon only "indirectly responsible," but he was on the scene, was Minister of Defense in charge of operations in the area, and knowingly invited the Christian Phalange into the killing fields. He was quite aware of what was going to happen and failed to intervene during the 30
hours of killings.

An independent court or truth commission would have found Ariel Sharon directly responsible for the mass killings at Sabra and Shatila. So Sharon's terror record as a killer exceeds Carlos's by between 10:1 and 40:1, ignoring Sharon's involvement in death-dealing beyond the two cases mentioned. In a minimally just world Sharon would be behind bars. Instead, the Israeli political system has brought him back to power to deal once again with the "terrorists." No objections have been voiced in the United States, and the "international community," delighted to see Milosevic in The Hague, has also been silent.

<snip>

Sharon has even acknowledged an intent to attack civilians, declaring in March 2002, "The Palestinians must be hit and it must be very painful: we must cause them losses, victims, so that they feel the heavy price." Furthermore, the overall Sharon operation, both in working details and strategic conception, very clearly fits the "genocide" category of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2 (c) identifying as genocide the "Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part." Articles 2 (a) and (b) refer to killing (a) and "causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group." The fit of the word genocide to the Sharon "war" is far better than to Kosovo where, before the period of joint NATO-KLA warfare with the Serbs (March 24-June 10, 1999), the Serbs were fighting an ugly civil war, but were not trying to degrade the conditions of life of Albanians and push them out to make way for settlements by a Serb "chosen people."

The genocidal Israeli operation not only received a green light from the Bush administration, even as international observers and-hesitantly, inadequately, and with "balance"-the U.S. media, were reporting major war crimes, but also the Bush administration continued to oppose international monitors, continued to admonish Arafat, holed up in a room in Ramallah, to promise to call off the "terrorists," and continued to sanction the wholesale Israeli terror. Colin Powell visited a site of a suicide bombing, but couldn't bring himself to visit Jenin. His advice to Israel? "Prime Minister Sharon has to take a hard look at his policies to see whether they work," and if Sharon concludes that they do work (and Powell wouldn't question his aims), so be it.

http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node/564
-MORE-

Israeli History 101:
What do you know about Israeli Leaders?
by Mazin B. Qumsiyeh

<snip>

David Ben-Gurion was born David Green in Plonsk, Russia (now in Poland). He settled in Palestine in 1906. As chairman of the Executive of the Jewish Agency for Palestine from 1935 to 1948, Ben-Gurion directed all Jewish affairs to transform the country from multi-ethnic/multi-cultural area to a Jewish state “to redeem its Jewish nature”. His activities ranged from land development and settlement of immigrants to secret activities against natives and later (after the Palestinian revolt of 1936 jolted the British rulers) against the British. Here is an excerpt from Rabin’s memoirs about Ben Gurion: “We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, ‘What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘Drive them out!’” (Yitzhak Rabin’s memoirs, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979; Rabin’s description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet).

<snip>
Yitzhak Rabin (1922-1995), was born in Jerusalem to Zionist settler parents. In 1941, Rabin joined the Palmach, a unit of the Jewish underground army in Palestine and was deputy commander of the Palmach in 1947-1948 when the group engaged in ethnically cleansing Palestinians (as Benny Morris documented expulsion of Palestinians in the LOd and Ramle areas were carried out under Rabin’s command). Famous as Israeli defense minister in the late 1980s for ordering troops to “break the bones” of Palestinian demonstrators (mostly children). Rabin stated that “The Oslo “Peace Process” is “A new instrument for reaching traditional objectives” (according to Uri Savir, his chief negotiator, from http://www.fmep.org/reports/v10n3.html ). Henry Kissinger stated “I ask Rabin to make concessions, and he says he can’t because Israel is too weak. So I give him arms, and he says he doesn’t need to make concessions because Israel is strong” (quoted in Findley’s Deliberate Deceptions p.199). Yitzhak Rabin, once said (in the Knesset): “For all its faults, Labor has done more and remains capable of doing more in the future than Likud with all of its doing. We have never talked about Jerusalem. We have just made a ‘fait accompli.’ It was we who built the suburbs in Jerusalem. The Americans didn’t say a word, because we built these suburbs cleverly.”

<snip>

http://www.alhewar.net/Basket/israeli_history_101.htm
-MORE-


Ariel Sharon, From Sabra/Shatila to Jenin
Another U.S.-approved “good genocidist” free to kill

By Edward S. Herman

<snip>

In a recent article in the New York Times, however, reporter James Bennet notes that the ratio of killings during the first Intifada, 25 Palestinians to 1 Israeli, has fallen in the current Intifada to 3 to 1 (“Mideast Turmoil: News Analysis: Mideast Balance Sheet,” March 12, 2002). Neither Bennet nor the editors explain how the party victimized at a 25-1 ratio could be said to be the terrorists rather than the victims. But clearly, the decline to 3 to 1 calls for rectification by a good genocidist.

The notorious terrorist Carlos the Jackal was credited with 80-90 killings during his career. He is in prison. Ariel Sharon was responsible for some 66 to 70 civilian deaths in a raid on Qibya in October 1953 (two-thirds of the victims were women and children) and he was found, even by the Israeli Kahan commission, to have been “indirectly responsible” for the mass killings at Sabra and Shatila, estimated by various authorities as somewhere between 800 and 3,000 Palestinian civilians, a large fraction once again women and children. The Kahan commission was protecting Israel’s own high official in making Sharon only “indirectly responsible,” but he was on the scene, was Minister of Defense in charge of operations in the area, and knowingly invited the Christian Phalange into the killing fields. He was quite aware of what was going to happen and failed to intervene during the 30 hours of killings.

An independent court or truth commission would have found Ariel Sharon directly responsible for the mass killings at Sabra and Shatila. So Sharon’s terror record as a killer exceeds Carlos’s by between 10 to 1 and 40 to 1, ignoring Sharon’s involvement in death-dealing beyond the two cases mentioned.

In a minimally just world Sharon would be behind bars. Instead, the Israeli political system has brought him back to power to deal once again with the “terrorists.” No objections have been voiced in the United States, and the “international community,” delighted to see Milosevic in The Hague, has also been silent.

http://www.zmag.org/ZMag/articles/jun02herman.html
-MORE-

Losing the ballot seems to suggest the PM underestimated the power of his opponents within a party that has been drifting even further to the extreme right. -- Khalid Amayreh in the West Bank

What we did was we won a battle today. But we are very far from winning the war and just as we knocked ourselves out to get this far, we have to continue. -- Settler Moishe Sapperstein reacting to the Likud vote

Mona Baker, editor of The Translator and Editorial Director of St. Jerome Publishing, supplies these quotes which help put Sapperstein's comment into context.

"We must expel Arabs and take their places." -- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country." -- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's "Fateful Triangle", which appears in Simha Flapan's Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." -- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." -- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

http://www.saltspringnews.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=9935
-MORE-











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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. You've got it down, don't you? I'm amazed at the strength . .
Edited on Tue Dec-11-07 01:55 PM by msmcghee
. . of the deep hatred that must drive someone to write a post like that - a list of selected out-of-context quotations from 60 years ago during a state of war when the new state of Israel was being attacked by the combined Arab armies in an attempt to annihilate it.

And you use those to justify ongoing torture and mutilation of civilians by present-say Arab dictators who are not engaged in any wars of survival. Corrupt and vile dictators who torture and kill for the pleasure of it - and the utility of course. Because few Arab states could exist in any stability without such measures.

That's just sick.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. It's the truth. You're just pissy because you can't deny that the history of
Edited on Tue Dec-11-07 02:05 PM by acmavm
Israeal, and the Israel of today, are steeped in terroists and terrorist actions. It's called Zionism. And Zionism is a plague that will not die. No matter how many times the propaganda coming from the Israeli government is proven to be a lie, people like you just will not face the fact that nothing will ever change as long as you have the mindset you do.

None of this has anything to do with the Jewish religion. It has everything to do with espousing terrorist tactics.

You're a hypocrite of the first magnitude who loves to cry about how picked on and persecuted Israel is. But you refuse to recognize Israel's history.

The biggest laugh of your post:

'Because few Arab states could exist in any stability without such measures.'


As has been said many times before, pot meet kettle.

edit: Why do people like you, when confronted with direct quotes proving someone's point, always cry 'out of context, out of context'?
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Terrorism is trying to kill civilians.
As far as I know Israel as a state has never engaged in such activity. There were a couple of events from the 1948 war that have been characterized as such - but the interpretation is questionable at best. There were not many Arab civilians killed (about 130) and the event was not ordered by Israel state authority, anyway.

Palestinians have killed thousands of Israeli civilians using bombs, knives, small guns, snipers and mortars since before 1967. They continue today firing rockets into Israeli civilian areas from Gaza and trying to smuggle bombs in from the WB. Their purpose is to kill as many Israeli civilians as they can.

I'm not pissy. I'm just amazed that anyone would still try to create a situation of moral equivalence between Arab attacks on civilians and the defense of those citizens' lives. Actually, I've been here long enough not to be amazed. I'll just be content to point out the absurdity of your position - and wonder at what motivations must drive it.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. You are delusional. Seriously delusional. (Will a video suit you??)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WaCJn4hdjc

Israeli Attack on Palestinian Family on Gaza Beach

and...

Death on the beach: seven Palestinians killed as Israeli shells hit family picnic


Chris McGreal in Jerusalem
Saturday June 10, 2006
The Guardian


http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1794432,00.html




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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Thanks for the video. Only one problem with it.
Edited on Tue Dec-11-07 02:40 PM by msmcghee
I missed the part where the Israeli shells hit Palestinian picnic. All I see is bloodless bodies being carried out and screaming "survivors". (Actually, I've carefully watched that video several times.)

HRW sent an investigator there you know? He took lots of pictures of the injured Palestinians - and documented how much they all hate Israel. He also says he saw shell fragments that prove Israel artillery was responsible. But, he must have run out of space on his memory card because he forgot to take any pictures of "the proof".

The picnic took place on a beach where rockets were being fired from Gaza into Israel. Two weeks earlier the IDF had destroyed a rocket firing cell by placing spotters on that beach to call in accurate fire from offshore. Then in the following days Hamas mined the beach so no IDF spotters could go there again.

Yet, a family is picnicking on this same beach a few days later - the beach that is used to fire rockets into Israel? The beach that is mined to prevent IDF forces from going there?

Are you sure you want to debate me on this? I've done some pretty extensive research - and obviously all you've done is look at a fake video.

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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. You haven't done any research, just a lot of self-deluding talking to
Edited on Tue Dec-11-07 02:59 PM by acmavm
yourself. Now go away. I don't bother with liars or clowns. I don't know which you are, but I'm beginning to suspect that you're a combination of both. You are everything you seem to think allows you to claim the high moral ground. You are what is wrong with the state of Israel. You are a hater. And as long as people like you continue to kvetch and whine about what victims you are while stealing the land and the water of the area, there will always be war. Debate you. What a joke. And your claim to such expert research. Now you're making me laugh.

I'm beginning to support the building of a wall all right. A wall to keep hateful, deceitful people like you caged in forever. Maybe then some progress will be made in the Middle East.

Here's what Human Rights Watch said:

Human Rights Watch researchers have visited the site to examine the fatal crater and have interviewed victims, witnesses, security and medical staff.

“There has been much speculation about the cause of the beach killings, but the evidence we have gathered strongly suggests Israeli artillery fire was to blame,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, director of the Middle East and Africa division at Human Rights Watch. “It is crucial that an independent investigative team, with the necessary expertise, verify the facts in a transparent manner.”

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/06/13/isrlpa13544.htm

Here's what the Times said:

Babies die as artillery barrage hits families on picnic beach

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1083525.ece


Here's Gulfnews.com
Family killed on Israeli beach
http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/06/06/10/10045980.html

Here's Common Dreams

Revealed: the Shrapnel Evidence That Points to Israel's Guilt
by Donald Macintyre
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0614-01.htm

Here's the Boston Globe
Home > News > World > Middle East

Shell kills 7 in Gaza family
BEIT LAHIYA, Gaza Strip -- An Israeli artillery shell slammed into a crowded beach in the northern Gaza Strip yesterday, killing seven members of a Palestinian family, including a baby boy who relatives said was ripped from his mother's arms by the blast.
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/06/10/shell_kills_7_in_gaza_family/

Anti-war.com
The Gaza Beach Party Massacre
Israel bombs beach-goers and re-invades Gaza – because they can
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=9224





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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I'd be happy to debate this with you . .
. . but there's no point. You "know" that Israel is guilty - and I don't give a shit what you "know". I'm done with this thread.
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SpikeTss Donating Member (308 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Apart from the shady deals of Sarkozy and his wife

the real scandal is that people like Cheney are making a lots of money by dealing with the Libyans.
On Cheney's hands is the blood of many innocent people, not just in regards to Libya, but there the hypocrisy of the fascist Bush regime and his friends in international politics is especially mind-boggling.
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