Navratilova takes Czech nationality after shame over America

[kskiska]

Source: Times Online

Martina Navratilova, the former world number one tennis star, said yesterday that she had regained Czech nationality more than 30 years after fleeing its communist rule to live in the US.

(snip)

But her announcement, at a Tokyo press conference, raised questions over whether she planned to leave America, after a series of controversial attacks on President Bush and the Republican party.

Born in Prague, Navratilova defected to the United States in 1975 aged 18, angering the communist authorities who stripped her of her nationality. She was granted a green card within a month and US citizenship six years later.

(snip)

In 2002, she told a German newspaper: “The most absurd part of my escape from the unjust system is that I have exchanged one system that suppresses free opinion for another. The Republicans in the US manipulate public opinion and sweep controversial issues under the table. It’s depressing. Decisions in America are based solely on the question of how much money will come out of it and not on the questions of how much health, morals or environment suffer as a result.”

Read more: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3528622.ece

[xchrom]

1. ...

:applause:

[Captain Angry]

2. She is very friendly.

I coached a women's hockey team a while back. She played for the Aspen Motherpuckers, who we ended up losing to. After the game she sat out front and signed hockey sticks and talked to anybody who wanted to say hi.

It sure says something when somebody who has lived in an oppressive regime can now identify the USA as exhibiting those features.

[goodgd_yall]

83. I agree

It seems usually people who have come from communist regimes fail to see the our country's own corruption, but Martina has. By the way, the article says she is now a dual citizen. The discussion about her comments in 2002 were added to support a thought by some that she may leave the U.S. She has said no such thing though.

[CreekDog]

3. This time the Czech cancelled us

What a country! :crazy:

[krkaufman]

5. cute.

:)

[krkaufman]

4. And it wasn't Bush's wars. She just spent a few hours in GD:P.

:)

[melody]

6. Good riddance

Sorry, but if she sees this whole country in line with the country club rich people she knocks elbows with,
she'd best return.

[Faygo Kid]

8. Sounds to me like she's got it about right.

What's wrong with this statement? "The Republicans in the US manipulate public opinion and sweep controversial issues under the table. It’s depressing. Decisions in America are based solely on the question of how much money will come out of it and not on the questions of how much health, morals or environment suffer as a result.”

Sounds pretty accurate to me. And she's rich, alright, but if she's making a statement for health, morals and the environment over the almighty dollar, she's OK in my book.

I'm an American by birth, so I will stay here and fight. But she's able to make a powerful statement by doing this, and I say good for her.

[melody]

9. She needs to read a little about Czechs and their history

All human beings are equally flawed. We all make the same mistakes. Just at different times.

[libnnc]

10. Um, she kinda lived through all that...

she watched the soviet tanks roll past her apartment as a child. She knows what she's talking about.

[melody]

12. Then she has her audacity to point fingers Her parents "sat back" and let THAT happen, didn't they?

My point is, there's always something to find that's wrong somewhere.

If her allegiance isn't here, then she needs to go back home. Something tells me she'll be keeping
all the dirty US money and mansions, though.

[libnnc]

13. Okay whatever. You make no sense at all but have a great day

clueless...:crazy:

[melody]

14. You simply can't refute my points, so you resort to name-calling

Such is the way of DU these days.

[libnnc]

16. You haven't made a point

except spout "love it 'er leave it!" and within this particular context (Martina and her family having been a victim of Soviet oppression so she kinda knows a crappy country when she sees one), your point is pretty much incoherent.


But you just keep on keeping on...

[melody]

19. Welcome to my ignore list. n/t

[libnnc]

21. I'm utterly crushed.

:crazy:

[go west young man]

142. I like your style.

[depakid]

55. The America Über Alles crowd can rationalize pretty much anything

but the bottom line is that the US has become a rogue state, not just in terms in human rights -but with just about any international law, treaty or obligation it finds inconvenient.

Not to mention domestic laws federal and state governments choose to enforce... or not enforce.

[melody]

73. The bottom line is that loving one's country doesn't make one part of the Uber Alles crowd

The US government is DEFINITELY a rogue entity. That is entirely a different thing from our country.

I had no problem understanding why Russians loved their mother country enough to fight for it ... why is it
others have that problem with Americans?

[grace0418]

91. The "love it or leave it" approach is not so much a point as a black and white mentality

that doesn't sit well with most people of a progressive nature. While it's true that no country is perfect nor is any human, America in particular has always stood for things like freedom, equality, etc. Have we ever had it entirely? No, of course not. In our entire history there have always been people are not free, not equal. But, until the BushCo regime, it seemed like at least we were making baby steps towards that ideal of America. Since BushCo, we've taken many huge steps back towards the dark ages.

Martina has every right to her opinion, and after living through it once before I certainly excuse her for being extra sensitive about it. Heck, I've been having my doubts about being an American over the last 7 years. I probably won't leave either, but I have a right to my doubts.

[melody]

94. And others don't have the right to doubts about her doubts? n/t

[grace0418]

95. Doubt implies a gray area. Your comments sound pretty black and white to me.

[melody]

96. Very little gray in her decision also, so my response was in keeping with that

You're reading it as "love it or leave it" because you read a theme of loyalty and only apply it to right-wingers.

I'd say the same thing in defense of my mother (were she alive) if someone insulted her. Does the US have its
faults? Absolutely -- the government does. But if you insult my family, I take issue.

[grace0418]

102. I see plenty of gray in her decision, and perhaps a considerable amount of heartache.

I love my family too. But if several members of my family were murderous thugs, I wouldn't blame anyone for having negative opinions about those particular family members. Nor would I assume their opinions applied to me.

[melody]

104. Well, she's refusing all of mine including the good parts of it

She has every right to make the decision and I have every right to think badly about it. :shrug:

[grace0418]

106. Yep.

As do we all.

[melody]

107. You know, you're almost as weird as I am -- I like that in a person lol

Okay, on that note, I AM logging off.

Goodnight.

[TooBigaTent]

22. Your attacks mirror the freeper vitriol against one of the good "guys." I say that

she knows of what she speaks.

[melody]

24. My attack is that of someone who believes in our country as it really is

Reagan and Bush were enemies from within.

Read the real history of our people -- it's a populist tale, not one for the right-wing to weep over.

[endarkenment]

37. The right wing has ruled outright since 1980.

What are you blabbering about?

[melody]

39. You're attacking me now because you've run out of arguments

I've made my case. Believe what you need to believe.

[endarkenment]

42. No you are just spouting nonsense.

We are in the midst of a massive right-shift that has been going on since 1980. Civil liberties have been eroded, state power has increased, our prisons are stuffed with a World's Worst 1% of our population, and you are going on about some populist tradition that has never held sway in this country, or at least not since about 1865. Once in my lifetime have I had the opportunity to vote for an actual progressive populist running for president on a major party ticket. Once. And I am not exactly a young person.

You are also rambling on about some 'neocon' entity that you appear to believe is somehow separate from the cabal that is running our nation when in fact it is the same folks. The other and more accurate name for this cabal is The Washington Consensus and it is calling the shots almost everywhere on earth. Martina is not getting away from that by moving back to her homeland, she is simply relocating to a less oppressive district.

[melody]

44. Welcome to my ignore list. n/t

[endarkenment]

47. I'm utterly crushed. nt

[bitchkitty]

51. Not to butt in or anything,

but it's really stupid to tell people you're ignoring them...

And for the record, you're being a xenophobic asshole.

[melody]

53. How have I said anything "xenophobic"? I haven't insulted any other nationality

If anything, Navratilova is being xenophobic.

Beyond which fact, part of anthropology is semantics and I know you're just the other poster with a sock
puppet ID. As such, I'll add you to my ignore list, too.

[bitchkitty]

54. I'm me, no sock puppet here.

If you did a search, you'll find that out. But then that would require changing your opinion and your head would probably explode.

And since I'm on your ignore list, kiss my pretty pink ass.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. I expect to be added to the list too

but there are times that GIVING AWAY a passport is a powerful statement. You don't get it... but I do

Now poof, put me in the list too.

And you know what? I wasn't born here, I have been fighting this since 2000 since I took an oath... but I don't expect everybody to stay and fight.

By the way... she is just moving to another sector of the Empire, that is all. And probably avoiding the fall that will soon come to the American Empire

Now go ahead, put me on the list.

[melody]

68. I don't "ignore" people with whom I disagree -- I "ignore" personal attackers

Your posts are always substantive and interesting. We often agree and often disagree but you're always polite.

Why does she have the right to insult a whole country and yet I don't have the same right to insult her? I'm
not understanding why you, in particular, are upset. When she does this, she is insulting me and everyone I love ...
all my friends ... my family going back 250 years, of which many were liberals and progressives.

I have no choice -- this is my only country. I honestly don't care where she lives, but I have the right to object
when she insults it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. You are upset because she pointed out what we have become

what the Russians used to be.

That is why you are upset

Welcome to reality. I have gone to other countries and heard this over the last five years.

Especially the last two.

People fear us, the same way they feared the Russians

That is reality right now

Take the message for what it is, a more than valid criticism. The same as Hannah Arendt issued before WW II, about her homeland... and later she didn't go back

If Hannah was alive today, I am betting she'd be horrified and looking for an exit. She lived doing it once. She bore witness.

And you know what? If I could, I'd find an exit right now. Things are gonna get far worst in this country... in ways that most Americans (who have not an inkling of how bad things can get) cannot even fathom. I can... why I'd rather, if I could, look for a damn exit

[melody]

70. Oh, please

What is happening in the US is a multi-national effort to destroy us, started from deep within Europe at the same time as it was hatched within the USA. There are aspects of Europe every bit as responsible for all of this as ANY American.

By all means leave ... you'll merely find it elsewhere at a later stage. The neocons are trying to crush us ALL. If you were only here for the good times and have utterly no sense of loyalty or responsibility to your friends and neighbors, then you're probably better off saving your own neck as Martina is.

If you want to discuss details of this, I'd be happy to, but if you want to see Evil Americans, there's not much to say beyond this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. One name, Friedman

two words, Chicago School Economics

Yes, they have cousins on the other side of the pond, but they are wholly made here.

Sorry... but our Neocons are OUR neocons.. and our Neocons have used the Bretton Woods agreements to force thigns like the Volker shock on Latin America (and others in the developing world) to make the world safe for the American Transnational.

As I said, she is moving to a better area of the American Empire, good news, it will fall too...

[melody]

74. It's not the American empire ... it's the globalist aristocracy

Dear old British Ambrose ... the Henry Crowd in the UK ... the Morgan Comfrey Enterprise -- they all came
BEFORE our neocons.

Prescott Bush staged a coup against our government many, many years ago -- his grandson is merely finishing up
what his grandfather started. And Prescott was Hitler's banker. You do the math.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. I do the math

and I know the numbers.. but OUR CHICAGO BOYS are the front line troops

YOU DO THE MATH ok

Who mans the IMF these days? Chicago boys... who mans the World Bank, Chicago boys

You do the math

[melody]

81. Who OWNS the money behind the World Bank -- who OWNS the "Chicago Syndicate"?

Don't give me the brand name. Disney hasn't been an all-American business in thirty years but they still
use the facade. Tell me WHO is behind it. Yankonography is just a brand -- it's not American. I'm a liberal
feminist and I'm an American. I'm a poor kid who lives in a green system run, paid-for house.

I think there's a lot of evidence that there is an international fascist network at play here -- they've been trying this since Kennedy was murdered. It's not allowed to leak into mainstream media, but the evidence exists.

I'd be happy to suggest written material on this. If you have anything to refute it, if I haven't read it
already, I will read that also.

The USA is every bit as responsible for this -- but so is Europe, Great Britain and its commonwealth. The non-
white world (Africa, for instance) is suffering more than we are, but it's the same people behind the problem.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. Who controls it? Too bad you can't ask Friednman

who is now dead, and has more blood on his hands than many folks, save Hitler and Stalin, possibly.

We both know who controls it... but most of those corporations ARE (or were, until they were sold) American... with a few brits. These days the major holders are Saudi, any other questions? But WE still control appointment to the WB and the IMF.

So don't preach to me. But you just proved that she did (get her citizenship back) what any reasonable person who CAN, does when situations like this arise

Hell, as a child of the holocaust, no this is not the first time, I have my papers ready at all times... and will bolt if need be

I will fight, but only as long as there is a chance of winning. Pardon me for saying this, but there is a difference between fighting and being stupid. In your case, I guess you will have to decide WHEN to shut up... and the time is getting very close when you will have to decide whether to continue to be vocal, or survive this and become a witness.

Yes, the day is coming and you know what? If you expect Americans to follow you in some kind of a progressive revolution... good luck, Idol is on. If they have not protested in a significant way... in the last seven years, forget it. You cannot get enough for a day's protest, a months strike, good luck.. and short of a national strike, you will not get the media to cover it.

So she's doing what any rational person does when one realizes that things are this bad

[melody]

88. I'm not preaching -- I'm merely asking for fairness

Friedman is/was nothing more than a whore for big business. You know very well big corporations ONLY pay attention to their major stockholders. The girls in the house are Americans but their pimps aren't from these parts. lol

It is one of the true sociopathic geniuses of their plans -- making people hate their primary victims. It's only when they start putting people into concentration camps and murdering them that people complain. The world now hates Americans but the vast majority of us did nothing to deserve it and are, in fact, their frontline victims (third only to Iraq and Africa). Remember, America isn't just Georgia -- it's also California, Oregon and Washington, all liberal states.

I am a rational person, but I'm one who confronts reality as it exists, not the preferred "Happy Europe/Evil America" that the left in this country insists upon believing in. It's as ignorant and short-sighted as the "Evil Europe/Happy America" garbage the far right wing clings to here.

Have your last word (and personally, I hope you don't leave -- I love Europe and Europeans (as I love everyone else who isn't a fascist monster) and know we need more of us, not fewer), as the conversation seems to be going in circles.

Sorry, America is not the Evil Overlord. We're the current frontman -- we're not the ones behind it. For that, you'd need to check out Philip's pals.

I'd just add this to finish out the discussion -- when you discuss America, you're talking about a political entity distinct from you. The USA is the only heritage I have. I am an American (unless I get silly and try to embrace my inner Elizabethan Englishman and Victorian Irishman). Ergo, I refuse to be told it's all evil ... I'm not, the vast majority of my friends and family are not. Derek Corey, however, an Irish right-winger who believes in sterilizing Africans, gets a pass because he's Irish.

[treestar]

122. She criticized a country, you don't agree, so you attacked her

She did not insult your personally, she just criticized the U.S.

Weird you're allowed to consider her country criticism personal insult, yet feel entitled to insult her personally in response.

[melody]

126. She didn't criticize our government, she went after my people -- so she attacked me personally

She also insulted all my family and friends.

If she insulted me personally, on what moral grounds do you stand to defend her? I didn't take the exception in the first place ... she did. I'm merely playing by her rules.

[newspeak]

110. then, you know the history of Czechoslovakia?

after WWI Czechoslovakia was considered the best democracy of the world (and that is over the US). When Hitler moved into Czech territory claiming that the Czech's were suppressing German citizens, the allies stood by and did nothing. The US military was miles from Prague, and could have claimed that city during WWII, but they had made a deal with the Russians. Thus, the Russians came in and took over Czechoslovakia. During the Prague uprising in 1968, the people begged the US to help them, but Kissinger told them we're not interested. Even though Russia at the time was having their own problems with China over border disputes. Some Russian dignitaries were interviewed about the Prague uprising and stated that they probably would have let Czechoslovakia go--it was Poland and East Germany at the time who pushed for rolling the tanks into Prague for fear of their own people wanting independence. Czechoslovakia identified more with Western Europe than their Eastern counterparts. Now, you know Czech history, then you know of at least two times the US had a chance to help Czechoslovakia and actually did nothing.

I am an American--most of my ancestors have been here well over three hundred years, but I want to see all of history-even the dirty side of it. Martina has every right to want to go home-and she has experienced first hand what it was like under an authoritarian rule.

[melody]

115. She has every right to go home -- I have every right to object to her insulting my people

Yes, I know the history of Czechoslovakia.

The US is and never has been "the best democracy of the world". It is only what it is, but it is the only country I have.

I'm very open to discussing our horrible history. Some of 1/4 of my ancestors died because of it. But it's when she starts objecting to all of our *people* that I draw the line.

I'd draw the same line with any other group of *people* ... not governments.

[newspeak]

116. yes, but above you implied that the Czech's

allowed the takeover to happen. When the Czech's rebelled in 1968--they attempted to take back their country and asked for help from us. I mean, we're in Iraq because we're liberating those people, but here is a case of breaking the yoke of suppression for a true democracy, and where were we?

Yes, you are correct, like you, it is the only country I have. However, I don't think we need to get down on Martina, just because she wants to go home. As I said before, she has first hand knowledge of authoritarianism-she shouldn't be castigated for her decision.

[treestar]

123. Defend the American People from her attack then

No need to go after her personally.

"My people" is a strange way to refer to the U.S. We're not like that. We are "America" or the "U.S." but not each others' people, whatever that means.

[melody]

124. They are the only people I have -- they are my people. That's a popular populist notion these days.

Black, white, green, orange -- they're my people. Just as she is being loyal to her people, I'm being loyal to mine. You may not feel loyalty to our people but I do. I don't have to defend them just as I don't have to defend black people against Ferraro's racist crap. Anyone who makes huge generalizations about one ethnicity is contradicting himself/herself. That would be the same if she had been knocking the French or the Germans or the Russians, etc.

She's attacking my people. I'm not attacking her personally, I am attacking her arguments (or I have elsewhere in this huge and unwieldy thread). I take issue with her stated reasons for doing what she's doing.

[Political Heretic]

112. Her allegiance? I'm sorry, but my "allegiance" isn't here either.

I'm with Thomas Paine: The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.

I don't think she should "get out" because she criticizes aspects of American society. I do too. There's much to criticize. I'm not sure how people at DU get away with the supreme irony of being supposedly liberal minded and big supporters of the bill of rights, but then have no problem telling all sorts of people that, since they've spoken out, they should get out of the country.

It never ceases to amaze me how many DU posters sound not just like republicans, but like BUSH republicans. You're either with us or with the terrorists, right? :eyes:

[melody]

113. We sound like BUSH Republicans because you haven't read what we've written

She can criticize it all she likes and stay right here. I love Martin Sheen and he does it far more than she has.
She is doing something else -- she released a crassly worded, seven page statement filled with comments that, if she
removed the word "American" and plugged in "Jew" would have sounded like something straight out of WW2. She is
leaving the country.

Had she said this about ANY national, I'd be arguing with her about it. I can sympathize, but I also have the right
to my reaction which is "good riddance".

[damntexdem]

27. Not in line with, but run by.

She'd best return so she can be a citizen of a country with greater integrity than the U.S. now has.

[melody]

29. And when her country is taken over by the neocons and we've thrown them out?

The great strength of what was our democracy was that it's much slower for tyrants to take over.
Because of the structure that was (and will be again), they weren't able to drive tanks through
our streets. Our country will be back better and more resilient (and with more focus on helping
our own people and less on protecting people who can afford to give free medical to their own people)
and then where will she go?

[endarkenment]

31. Why she can come back here of course.

I admire your optimism though. You phrase this optimism a bit oddly here: 'The great strength of what was our democracy'. If it is no longer a democracy (and I would not argue that point) how is it that this great strength that is non-existant is going to get rid of the tyrants who have destroyed it? By the way, tanks have driven through our streets, or at least armored personnel carriers and assault helicopters, as recently as katrina. Attend a 'national security event' sometime, such as an inauguration, and see if you still think that military force will not be used to retain control of our institutions of government.

[melody]

32. Critique my usage all you like, but read it correctly

I SAID it's no longer a democracy, but it WAS one.

It had great strength -- it also had great weaknesses which hadn't yet been tested (BushCo was set-up to find those
weaknesses and exploit them to destroy us). They have now.

I know how close the neocons are to taking over everywhere ... I have much greater faith in what is going on here.

[libnnc]

33. add to that CBS 60 Minutes last week and the story about the new ray gun toy

Interestingly used against volunteer subjects who were supposed to represent Iraqi insurgents....

.......holding Peace signs :scared:

[ngant17]

57. You never heard of the 22 Nov 63 coup d'etat in America?

"...in the White House during March of 1962, as those close to the Kennedy brothers told Talbot, "The President had made a shocking discovery: his joint chiefs of staff were plotting to overthrow his government and install in its place an accursed military dictatorship like those in South America," in JFK’s words. He preferred not to publicly expose the plot in exchange for the general’s resignation."

John F. Kennedy sent a message to Soviet leaders letting them know that he and his brother Robert had been victims of an internal conspiracy. He mistrusted these forces, apparently, more than the Soviet Union.

See David Talbot’s book "Brothers: The Hidden History of the Kennedy Years"

[melody]

90. That's what I've been talking about in other parts of the thread -- but that threat came from BushCo

And the Bush money came from Hitler's bank.

It's not an American-born movement. It staged a coup against JFK when they murdered him (see also the Gang of 10: the Bush Family's War Against America), but they were global imperialists.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. LA 2003, the clip is on YouTUBE

but there were tanks in the streets. just the media never covered it

Hold it, if it ain't on teeeveee it never happened

[melody]

75. I saw it, trust me, my grandson lived there

But it wasn't on every street in every city.

And we're still talking about the Bush administration ... it is the rogue entity (that and the so-called
"Reagan Generation").

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. Then you have seen the tanks in the streets

and like that, how many more that were not put on you tube?

Reality is we live in a very scary place where there is such control of information that YOU will not see things like this if they can help it.

That is the reality she's pointing to. The same reality I have been screaming about for a while.

[melody]

82. Did I say we didn't? I've been screaming just as loudly as you have -- maybe louder

The issue is you want to blame it all on one country. I've read enough to know it's not just us. I want
to solve the problem for EVERYONE, not merely kick them out of our country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. Here is what my daddy told me, a very bright man

who also survived Hitler's travel plan

You start locally. You don't start by shooting for the moon

[melody]

89. My grandmother, also a brilliant person, although a hillbilly poor woman

And only an American, mind you, said ...

"You can hack at the sucker roots all you want but you won't take out the problem unless you also find the source."

[endarkenment]

30. Way to completely misread what she said.

Her statement was entirely accurate.

[melody]

34. "way to"? lol And you were joking about my usage?

Sorry, my friend, I don't think she is accurate. I think she's doing something that will enable her to
move her money somewhere more advantageous to her. She'll have all those big multi-nationals offering
her money now -- despite the fact they're behind BushCo all the way.

As I said, good riddance.

[libnnc]

35. She hasn't been a part of a major national ad campaign

in almost 15 years

What are you talking about? When she came out as a lesbian, she lost most of her sponsors (except she gained the deal with Subaru).

She hasn't sold anything in YEARS. She just wants to run a little tennis camp for teenagers in her home country. You act like she's some kind of Benedict Arnold. She risked her LIFE to get to this country and the lives of her FAMILY. She became a citizen and participated in the electoral process (was a visible DRIVING force behind fighting anti-LGBT legislation in Colorado and California). She's spent her entire life in this country speaking out. She doesn't owe you a goddamed thing. She doesn't owe me anything either.

You're nuts.

[endarkenment]

36. You do understand that she is Czech by birth,

is returning to her homeland, and is a lesbian currently living in a country ruled by homophobic bigots? You think democracy is dead here, but that Navratolova is wrong for saying so? She finds the current climate of intolerance and wrong-headedness oppressive and dangerous and as an emigre she has a comfortable option to return to the land of her youth, but she must be doing that just to make money? How silly of you.

Your 'good riddance' appears to me to be simply an emotional response to what you perceive as an insult to our nation. Like many wrong headed americans, you take any criticism as an affront, and reject the messenger out of hand. That is part of the problem Martina is referring to.

[melody]

38. Fine. She came here during the good times and now she's leaving because of 29% of the country

I suspect her reasons are far more complicated than your idealistic vision of her would like to believe.
I'm not going to be silly enough to call you "silly" however. ;)

Listen, you clearly have an emotional connection to her. I don't care. I just don't like hypocrites.
She is welcome to go wherever she likes. But when the bell tolls for her country again, I hope she'll keep
that in mind.

Have your last word and let's end this ludicrous thread. lol Comparatively poor people talking about what a rich woman
is doing ...

[endarkenment]

48. I have an emotional connection to her?

Whatever. I simply am not insulted by people who criticise our nation. Right now we are a pretty despicable as a nation and we could use a lot more people standing up and saying so. You are consumed by nationalism. Get over it.

And since you've publicly put me on ignore, fuck off. That cannot possibly be personally insulting, right?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

56. WOW

The 'country club rich people she knocks elbows with"?

Give me a break.

She is DOING SOMETHING about the current status, which you seem so ready to accept.

[melody]

59. I'm doing far more about the current status than she ever has -- or will

I'm fighting for my country.

The going got tough so she ran.

[libnnc]

61. Anyone who can use the google

will be able to see that your statement is absolutely delusional.

It's sad really. I feel sorry for you.

[GoneOffShore]

64. Oh my.

:eyes:

[Political Heretic]

111. sorry back, but her quote seems pretty accurate to me.

:shrug:

[melody]

114. You have a right to your opinion, she has a right to hers, and I once thought I had a right to mine

However, this IS DU. lol

[sinkingfeeling]

7. Wish I had another citizenship or Irish grandparents.

[melody]

11. I wouldn't want to be the friend of anyone who'd leave us now

Sorry, but I wouldn't. I can understand the compulsion to leave, believe me, but if I were Martina's
friends, I'd be checking my reasons for hanging around her. The minute they screw up, she'll be out
looking for cooler friends.

[sinkingfeeling]

15. Guess we won't be friends. I planned to retire to Ireland in 2010, but Bush's great

fiscal responsibility has put an end to those long-held plans. Can't retire on 50% of what I thought. ($1=1.53 Euros).

[melody]

18. If you're just moving to Ireland, you're just moving to Ireland

If you're doing it to kick dust in our faces, then I have an issue.

Either way, all the people sneering at us now will be trying to crowd in once we've gotten
the Reaganites out the door. And when Ireland gets taken over by neocons (and they're trying
as we speak, well ... )

[roguevalley]

20. Where in Ireland. I recommend Tipperary but I bet its pretty spendy

now. :)

[sinkingfeeling]

25. Donegal.

[roguevalley]

45. how wonderful. lots of rain falls there. I will never forget driving into

the swiss valley. Long, long time ago. Yeats country I think.

[selador]

63. um, no

1 Euro = 1.53 US Dollars

you got it backwards

[mitchtv]

17. well , she won't be losing any endorsements

she never got any from this bunch. She has been a commercial pariah in this country, good for her.

[melody]

23. If it's not her home, she needs to choose one ... if she has, good for her, good for us

She's not just insulting Bush and Co, she's insulting you, too -- and me -- everyone who is fighting
against him.

[mitchtv]

26. No insult here

she has been treated like shit by this country. But then again If you're not gay , you won't understand. She is lucky she has the resources to do what she wants. I bear no resentment like you do

[melody]

28. This country hasn't treated her like anything -- the ruling class has perhaps

Does she blame her people for what the fascists did to her parents and grandparents?

Of course not. She's doing a popular thing for the European crowd. She'll get lots of money-making
offers this way. As I said, good riddance.

[libnnc]

41. I think Melody must be Rita Mae Brown...

that relationship ended baaaadly...:hide:

[1monster]

40. Oh BS. This country is not what it was when she came here. And you can quote

all the historical "facts" you want on it, I have lived through the same years that she did. I've seen it happening. If I had a bolt hole in another country, I'd definitely be provisioning it now.

And by the way, the American Political Tradition has ALWAYS been conservative, not populist.

[melody]

43. Then you don't know your own history

If you've fallen for the crap peddled by the mainstream media (the "founding fathers" were slave-holding
misogynists OR wild-eyed Jesus freaks), then you've swallowed a multi-nationally spun revisionism.

It would take thirty years and tons of books to counter that crap unfortunately.

I add this not to the initial poster but to those on my ignore list -- I see you trying, but as you've only shared bromides and personal attacks so far, I have you on ignore. If you wish to participate with grown-ups who can conduct adult
conversation, then by all means private message me. Otherwise, you're wasting your time. That's what an "ignore list"
is.

[libnnc]

46. Um, the founding fathers did own slaves

Are you okay?

Edit to add: if you care (and I know you don't but this is just so that I can sleep tonight seeing as I'm getting my MA in US History. My ass is covered at least)...


Read Edmund Morgan's American Slavery American Freedom. The founding fathers did own slaves. That's the paradox that Morgan tries to tackle in his analysis. He asks "How did America navigate the concept of freedom as a slave owning nation?"

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. Congratulations on your effort and I could add some to the list

Now they were not all Jesus freaks, and that is where the heavy revisionists come in

But it is not only Morgan who has asked that question... and damn it the historiography on this subject is long, and why we got the damn decision that allowed some territories to allow slavery while others did not. That is the origin for the Kansas mess of the 1850s, and the cold civil war in Bostonian society between families and friends who were torn apart by slavery

I know I am preaching to you, since you know this... but when people try to ignore the least savory sides of our history I do have a problem with it

I admire Jefferson, as a writer and an idealist. That said, he did own slaves... and the attitudes of his era were quite misogynistic and women were limited to the private sphere, a complaint by Adam's wife, Abigail.

And like you I do HAVE an MA in history... me Mexican History, with a minor in US History and a second one in European history, so yes I am covered too.

I also love Zinn, especially his Popular History, but his work has to be placed in balance with the rest of the historiography, or people run the risk of thinking that many of our achievements, such as Labor and Ciivil Rights were easier to obtain than they actually were.

[libnnc]

76. You, I've always appreciated here.

In addition to Zinn, I've enjoyed Eric Foner and Gary Nash (can you tell I'm cramming for comps as I type this? LOL).

I applaud Martina (not just because I spent my formative years crushing on her :evilgrin:). I had the privilege of hearing her speak at the LGBT March on Washington in '93 -- we were among one million strong at that march and rally. She was so thrilled to speak out openly about her sexuality and in favor of our civil rights. She expressed a really deep understanding of how precious those rights are from her own experience living under a repressive Soviet regime.

It must break her heart to see what has happened over the last 20 years.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. Eric Fonner, I even have one book signed by him

god I am sounding like a groopie

:-)

Was the student head of the Department's Honor Society, and guess who came to town to do give the keynote? Eric Foner

As to her, I understand. I have been saying this country is becoming very close to becoming fascist (openly)... and been fighting the ever so popular Pollyanna's who will not identify fascism until they see troops in the streets and no ability to say what they think. They don't realize that Spitzer (and the unequal prosecution) is yet one more sign we are there.

She saw that as a child. So she just went for the exit. Can't blame her, one bit. And yes, the LGBT gets it in the chin every time with authoritarian states, left or right, does not matter.

Oh and good luck on the comps... I had to write a damn thesis

:evilgrin:

[melody]

93. Who has been ignoring the less savory sides of history?

I'm merely saying it's not all evil. I have the same discussion with right-wing people about France, Spain and Portugal.

As ever, people in discussing US history, mention Jefferson (who may have been a writer and idealist) but never Franklin and rarely Adams. It's much easier to depict an era of people as evil that way.

[1monster]

49. History major here who also did history as a hobby. Did a whole semester

on the sole subject of the American political tradition. It was and is conservative.

Every two to four decades we have a liberal/progressive/populist movement that gains ascendancy for about ten years. The the conservatives give us blow back and send us in the other direction as fast as they can.

The conservatives of today are trying really hard to roll back all of the progress made by FDR's administrations. It has been a real frustration for them that FDR's long tenure as President enabled his social programs, i.e. social security, to become so entrenched that they didn't dare dismantle it.

The nineteen forties to 1980 were atypical. You need to study the social and political histories of this country.

I think you might find that a lot of what is going on now is very similar to the Robber Baron era of the 1880s through the 1930s.

[melody]

50. Cultural anthropology masters with a history minor :) - it is and was liberal

There isn't one "American political tradition" there are many. The predominant movement has always
been populist. BTW, can we stop the silly pissing contest now?

Look, as you know, historians have been arguing this for 200+ years -- we won't resolve it. You have
your preferred belief based on reading history, I have mine. We're not going to solve it here.

I choose to embrace and hope for my people. If you choose to hate them/refuse them, that's your right and your
responsibility. American is the only nationality I have -- I have nowhere to go home to. This is it for me.
My family came here 350 years ago. So I'll fight for it.

I should add ... here is the home church of one of our founders. It was built by his family, in their tradition.
I invite you to take a look at their statement of purpose and other items on the website. BTW, said founding
father (and second US President) is buried in the basement.

http://www.ufpc.org/

[Bilbo Heugan]

62. And I learned in US History that after each war there was a

relaxing into liberalism and hedonism. Didn't work after the Vietnam War, nor the Gulf I War, and not now either. I guess not everything I learned in history class was right.

[grace0418]

92. Wow! That's a lot to extrapolate about a person just because she's exercised her

right to question the government, which every American should do IMHO.

Personally, I wouldn't want to be the friend of anyone who would make such a sweeping judgment about my entire personality based on one statement I've made.

[melody]

97. You think it's okay for her to insult my entire country but I'm not allowed a response?

Why, because you agree with her but you don't think you agree with me?

[grace0418]

100. Of course you're allowed a response. And I am allowed a response as well.

It doesn't even matter if I agree with her or not. I just don't see how anyone can assume someone would be a terrible friend because they dare to speak their mind about the state of our country. For all I know, Martina might be a terrible friend, or she might be a wonderful friend. But I certainly can't make that judgment based on the comments in the OP.

[melody]

101. I think she would be a terrible friend to abandon all her friends and neighbors to save her own neck

My friend, I'm not making absolute statements either -- just off-hand comments. No one is going to jail over
our pronouncements.

I've been a loud liberal all my life. I think I've got a 25% chance of being thrown in a concentration camp somewhere
before I die. Does that mean I'm going to abandon my family and friends? Hell, no.

The country isn't just George Bush.

[grace0418]

103. I don't know what I was thinking.

You're absolutely right. She *is* a terrible friend. I see that now. I'm officially uninviting her from my birthday party. Thanks for the heads up.

[melody]

105. I don't care what you think about it -- I'm not trying to convince anyone

Do what you like.

Yikes ... I post a comment and I get assailed from ten different directions trying to tell me I'm wrong and then when I defend myself, people start pouting like I'm trying to convince them otherwise? LOL!

C'est la vie.

Have a good one -- I work at my computer but my master is logging off for the night.

[grace0418]

108. Your many responses and "welcome to my ignore list" comments sure make it seem

like you're trying to convince people of something. What that is, I'm not terribly sure. I must be too busy "pouting" to understand.

:eyes:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

119. Why do you identify so strongly with a piece of land bounded by lines on a map?

You're taking it personally, like America is a person whose feelings can be hurt. Would America speak up for you like this?

People have the right to feel "not at home" in their country. The entire population other than African-Americans and Native Americans came here because they felt "not at home" in their native countries.

Are they traitors, too?

[melody]

127. She said "Americans" -- when she says that, she means me - she is the one who identified me that way

She's the one defining me solely by borders on a map. As such, I'm responding in kind.
"America" isn't an entity -- it's a metaphor. The people collectively are an "entity".
She's the one calling us all by one name.

I'm 1/4 NA, I'm very familiar with Native American history, thanks.

I didn't call her a traitor ... you did.

[Karenina]

140. (psst... Lydia)

This is one hornet's nest of gobbledegook best left unpoked. ;-)

[spooky3]

52. This article doesn't say she's moving; that's just speculation.

Why can't she hold dual citizenship or regain her nationality? It's pretty lame of the reporter to pull out a 6 year old quote to link with this action.

And for the few who have criticized MN personally, three points:
1) She is not a politician and she is well-known for being outspoken. Why shouldn't she? She's smart. That's called exercising the First Amendment.
2) She earned her wealth through her own talent and hard work over a very long period of time. She has given a tremendous amount of $ and time to charitable causes. Google her.
3) She has been a strong progressive for a long, long time. People should be cheering her, not deriding her.

[Igel]

78. It just says she regained it.

Nothing about going back. And adding a citizenship to one's US citizenship isn't a problem any more--no longer any renunciation of US citizenship when acquiring another. One can; it doesn't say she has.

It'll make it easier if she has any business to do back v Praze. I wonder if she misses her name, Navrátilová, not being butchered. Stress on first syllable: MAR-tina NA-vraatilovaa. (aa = twice as long as a single a). And, of course, the t in Martina and in Navrátilová not being an alveolar (as in English), or a dental (as you'd get in Spanish), but a palatal. It's a good thing she doesn't have an ř in her name.

[spooky3]

87. I love your post because I used language tapes to learn a little Czech before

going to Praze some years ago. It was so hard to learn even a little, phonetically.

So dekuji and na-shled-a-nou! :-)

[goodgd_yall]

84. Exactly---thank you for the clarity of your post. n/t

[Zhade]

58. She's right.

NT!

[minnesota_liberal]

60. Game, Set and Match!

Martina's in a great position to compare and contrast governments.

[Generator]

65. Attacking Bush and the Republican party is controversial?

Not since say, oh Katrina and the sat around and let Americans die (oh again after 9/11) and an American city be destroyed.

I saw her on Bill Maher I think last year-she's pretty smart. America is fucked. Unfortunately I'm an American and am not allowed to leave (you know our money is worth nothing-joke's on us-we are the the new Cubans! Ha ha ha!) If I was rich like her I certainly would choose somewhere that had some habeas corpus, basic rights, a nation based on laws, things like that. OH AND a really free press. That would be nice.

[TML]

98. I Don't Blame Her

I'm sure more personalities or sports stars will do this in the near future.

[mojowork_n]

99. I have friends who immigrated here from E. Europe

who say the same thing. In fact, I say the same thing. This isn't the same country it was, just 20 years ago.

I saw this on another web site, with something of a twist. It's put together by Americans in Moscow, who call it The Exile:

20 Reasons Why We're Ashamed to be Americans

http://exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=17534&IBLOCK_ID=35

DISCLAIMER: There are more than 20 reasons. Some of the reasons are clearly obvious, others might be more so, from the point of view of people living overseas.

[Karenina]

118. Now THAT was BRUTAL!!!

:wow: :rofl:

[ret5hd]

137. Ex-pats are ashamed to be americans because...

we won't bomb Iran? (reason #4)

we can't overthrow Chavez? (reason #11) (along with a bonus "fuck you" for giving this one a "jimmy carter rating" of 4)

we are becoming a "monkey country"? (reason #20) (along with a bonus "fuck you" for obvious racism)



i don't know, but i hope you haven't accidentally fallen in with a bad crowd.

[Karenina]

138. Oh, gimme a break!

:eyes:

[ret5hd]

141. Hey, you posted the link...i was just asking questions.

Why don't you give us your opinions so we can know you better.

[Karenina]

150. Please see post #99.

:silly:

[Mudoria]

109. Don't let the door hit you on the way out....

[FightTheRight89]

117. This gets me really angry.

I hate when people disavow their nationality because of the actions of a few.

[depakid]

120. "the actions of a few."

It's not the actions of a few... it's a large plurality -and in some regions, a substantial majority of Americans who support these and other actions....

[FightTheRight89]

121. Still.

No reason to disavow this country. I think the mistakes this country has made pale in comparison to the good we have done and the ideals we stand for.

[depakid]

128. "ideals we stand for."

And those would be?

[FightTheRight89]

129. Democracy.

Freedom. Self-government. Liberty. Civil Rights. Equality. Justice.

Did you ever take a Social Studies class?

And please don't sarcastically tell me that "Oh, George Bush really is a champion of democracy" because I know he isn't. George Bush does not equal America any more than not supporting the war means not supporing the troops. This Presidency is just a bad phase in our history.

[depakid]

130. Surely you jest

Americans willingly gave up their Democracy up to corporate interests -many even "vote" on proprietary computers, with proprietary code that can neither be counted accurately or audited.

Indeed, to find the level of corruption Americans seem disinterested with, you have to look to 3rd world countries.

Self-government? Try government by corporate lobbyist (and deceit and concealment of these actions by American "mainstream" media.

Liberty. Civil Rights. Equality. Justice?

Sorry to tell you, but this ain't the 70's anymore- and the country's not going back....

[FightTheRight89]

131. Whatever you want to think...

I think you're making this all out to be a lot worse than it actually is. We're still the standard bearer for all the things I mentioned. Thus, we stand for those things. Things are never going to be nice and just hunky-dory.

[depakid]

132. America is NOT "the standard bearer" for those thing

You should travel abroad sometime, and see how other people live, what their governments and their policies are like. Might open your eyes to a few things.

Which was sort of the gist of the OP.

[FightTheRight89]

133. I have been to Europe five times.

Democracies, yet, and perhaps now they are more democratic. But we sort of invented the whole "representative democracy" thing. And yes, they do look to America disillusioned with our actions as of late but nevertheless hopeful of the good America. You know, the one that liberated them from fascism, helped them defend themselves against the Soviet empire blahblahblah.

But that was all crap anyway.

[Karenina]

139. Ah, the folly of youth!

:silly:

[FightTheRight89]

149. What's that supposed to mean?

But then again, I look forward to the days when I can delude myself into thinking that America is and always has been a negative force in the world, that the rest of the world hates us, and that we are a fascist empire bent on WORLD DOMINATION!!!!!

No, really, makes total sense.

[Karenina]

151. May I recommend a book?

http://www.historyisaweapon.com/zinnapeopleshistory.html

[kskiska]

125. Elizabeth Taylor relinquished her US citizenship for more frivolous reasons

when she married Richard Burton, and no one seemed to care.

In 2001, U.S. President Bill Clinton awarded her the Presidential Citizens Medal in recognition of her commitment to philanthropy. It is the second-highest civilian honor in the United States, awarded to U.S. citizens "who have performed exemplary deeds or services" for their country or fellow citizens, despite the fact that Taylor had relinquished her U.S. citizenship and is only an LPR (lawful permanent resident) of the U.S.

Previously, she'd converted to Judaism when she married Mike Todd.

[TexasBushwhacker]

134. She was born in England to American parents ...

and lived there for the first 7 years of her life. Might she have dual citizenship?

[kskiska]

148. Not anymore.

She relinquished her American citizenship to embrace the British citizenship.

In 1999, she was created a Dame Commander of the British Empire (DBE) by Queen Elizabeth II. Though she was thrilled with this honor, Taylor cracked, "I've always been a broad, now I'm a dame."

Taylor was born in Hampstead, a wealthy district of north-west London, the second child of Francis Lenn Taylor (1897 – 1968) and Sara Viola Warmbrodt (1896 – 1994), who were Americans residing in England. Taylor's older brother, Howard Taylor, was born in 1929.

Her two first names are in honor of her paternal grandmother, Elizabeth Taylor, who was born Elizabeth Mary Rosemond. Taylor was born both a British subject and an American citizen, the former by being born on British soil under the principle of jus soli, and the latter through her parents under the principle of jus sanguinis.

[ohio2007]

135. what kind of tax bracket do they have set up in the Czech Republic?

nt

[ret5hd]

136. Oh, you mean she's hiding all her untold millions from all those hundreds of endorsement contracts

[ohio2007]

143. 30 years a US citizen (Martina does not hate America........she hates Mr Bush ...).

“The most absurd part of my escape from the unjust system is that I have exchanged one system that suppresses free opinion for another.


snip

Martina does not hate America........she hates Mr Bush
snip
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3528622.ece


so, she will flip flop again from Czech, to Us to Czech to....US citizen in a few years or maybe even months .. lol but she knew where to go to make a buck in Tennis didn't she ;) Certainly not behind the iron curtain



btw
How many celebrities actually swore to leave america if * got re elected ? How many actually left ?

[tabasco]

144. Who can blame her?

Republicans and complacent Democrats have really fucked up this country.

Europe is a much better place now.

I hope we can turn it around and save this once great country.

[DuaneBidoux]

145. Sorry, She pisses me off. Where has she been? She gives up NOW? She hasn't spoken out.

Sorry, but in my opinion when you wield that kind of potential power you owe it to your country to speak out. She had an opportunity when the Supreme Court stole the election. She had an opportunity when we invaded Iraq. She had an opportunity when the "Patriot" Act was signed.

Now when we have people like Obama or Clinton coming to the fore and people are finally waking up (albeit slowly) she bails? Sorry, I think she is full of shit.

Instead of renouncing her US citizenship she should be an ambassador in the world saying we are better than our last 7 years, and that we as a people are going to work on fixing it.

How about Rob Reiner? How about Robert Redford? How about Barbra Streisand? How about hundreds of other (influential) people who love their country enough to go out and use their position for our country, instead of giving up?

Sorry, she just pisses me off, and if she gives up on us that easily then to hell with her, those aren't the kind of progressives we need here anyway.

[spooky3]

146. She didn't "renounce her US citizenship" - you've been taken in by bad reporting

Please see my prior post & re-read the article more carefully.

She's been speaking out for years - notice that the quote you don't seem to like is FROM 2002!!

[spooky3]

147. "She said that she was maintaining dual nationality and keeping her US passport."

You have to be careful with the British tabloids. Here is another article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/12/wtennis112.xml

"Martina Navratilova, the former tennis champion, said on Monday that she had regained her Czech citizenship more than 30 years after fleeing Communism to live in the United States.

'I lost it at the time I defected. I got it back on Jan 9,' Miss Navratilova, 51, said during a visit to Tokyo.

[Vidar]

152. Good for Martina--wish I could join her.