Judge says UC can deny class credit to Christian school students

[Newsjock]

Source: San Francisco Chronicle

A federal judge says the University of California can deny course credit to applicants from Christian high schools whose textbooks declare the Bible infallible and reject evolution.

Rejecting claims of religious discrimination and stifling of free expression, U.S. District Judge James Otero of Los Angeles said UC's review committees cited legitimate reasons for rejecting the texts - not because they contained religious viewpoints, but because they omitted important topics in science and history and failed to teach critical thinking.

... Charles Robinson, the university's vice president for legal affairs, said the ruling "confirms that UC may apply the same admissions standards to all students and to all high schools without regard to their religious affiliations." What the plaintiffs seek, he said, is a "religious exemption from regular admissions standards."

... For example, in Friday's ruling, he upheld the university's rejection of a history course called Christianity's Influence on America. According to a UC professor on the course review committee, the primary text, published by Bob Jones University, "instructs that the Bible is the unerring source for analysis of historical events" and evaluates historical figures based on their religious motivations.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/12/BAQT129NMG.DTL&tsp=1

[Maat]

1. Yahoo!

This decision was quite correct, in my humble opinion.

[wpelb]

96. Google

:D

Seriously, as others have pointed out, why would religious fundamentalists want to put their kids into the corrupt/wicked/evil UC system anyway?

[Maat]

127. HeeHee.

I'm a 'Googler,' you know.

There are a bunch of attorneys that want to be the heroes of the Religious Hardright. They get donations into their legal orgs. that way. They have gotten really militant in response to the ACLU and AUSCS (Americans United for the Separation of Church and State). They want to enforce their constitutionally-mandated equal access to 'public facilities.' This is their big, public hooha.

They want their kids to go to our local SoCal universities because that is all these righties can afford. The tuition is relatively low THANKS TO LIBERALS.

Hypocrites all (the Cons, that is)!

[lolly]

146. To undermine it

Once they get in, they'll start filing lawsuits against the UCs and the profs for failing to give equal time to their fundie viewpoints in science classes. They'll form student groups to protest the "discrimination" against religion, and get tons of press time with students whining and moaning about how some professor wouldn't give them A's on their creationist papers.

[MicaelS]

2. "Science courses from a religious perspective are not approved,"

Well no shit Sherlock, especially when they read like this:

Another rejected text, Biology for Christian Schools, declares on the first page that "if (scientific) conclusions contradict the Word of God, the conclusions are wrong,"

[sakabatou]

11. Fundie science

pi = 3, insects have 4 legs and the Earth is only a few thousand years old.

[The Croquist]

15. I bet you the average Christian high school student

has a better idea of pi then the average California high school student.

[ingac70]

17. That does not appear to be the case...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080523162916.htm

[ieoeja]

65. Some unsurprising stuff there.

Students from Catholic or conservative religious schools had the worst scores. More liberal religious schools, such as Lutheran, match public schools. While secular private schools do a little better than public schools helping to even out the public versus private scores.

Actually, I was a bit surprised to learn Catholic schools do so poorly. But they did point out the obvious reason, Catholic schools use uncertified teachers and provide less continuing education for those teachers. With human knowledge expanding exponentially, the lack of teacher continuing education means the pupils are going to miss out.

[hedgehog]

74. I don't know where the study was made, but in New York, Catholic schools

must have certified teachers.

[Critters2]

97. That's not true in Illinois. Anyone can teach in a Catholic school.

I have neighbors who took their daughter out of the Catholic high school because of the uncertified teachers. Example: the French teacher is a French Canadian, a native French speaker with no college education. She just happens to speak French. I was tutoring this student in French, and found she was basically being told to read the textbook and doing dialogues--no grammar or vocab work. I ended up doing that with her.

Yeah, those Catholic schools are great! :eyes:

[truth2power]

About teaching languages...this is just an observation

from my own experience. I have been working with Rosetta Stone (Spanish) for awhile. My public library offers it online at no cost. Those who are familiar with Rosetta Stone know how valuable this function is, as Rosetta Stone costs about 5 or 6 hundred dollars if you buy it outright, well above my budget.

What I hear is that Rosetta Stone is no longer going to offer their product to public libraries (online) after August. Losing money if you don't purchase the program dontcha' know.

I think Rosetta Stone is superior to any language system I know because they teach with no translation, grammar etc. as such. Yet, you are exposed to tenses of verbs, for example, that you wouldn't get into until way later in most systems.

For example: a picture (one of the functions) of a rodeo cowboy on a horse. You intuitively are taught the present perfect (has fallen), simple future (will fall), is falling etc. Best way to learn, IMO.

If I could go somewhere that I couldn't even get a sandwich unless I expressed myself in the native language, I would learn really quickly, I do believe.

[knitter4democracy]

118. Yeah, we Catholic high school teachers suck.

I only taught there because no one else would take me with my 3.97 GPA and two minors in foreign languages in addition to my major in English and my teacher's certification. :eyes:

If a high school is accredited by North Central (and both Catholic high schools I taught in were), all of their teachers have to be certified or on their way to certified. We had a Spanish teacher who started with me at the girls school where I first taught out of college who wasn't certified, and North Central made her start a teacher certification program. She was a good teacher, too, though a bit harsh on discipline for my taste.

[Critters2]

143. Here's the foreign language dept.'s faculty listing--from their public website:

http://www.marquettehs.com/foreignlang.htm

Note that neither the French nor Spanish teachers list any academic credentials whatsoever.

[knitter4democracy]

149. That's really odd. They'd never get hired at the schools I taught in.

At Beaumont, the foreign language dept. was one of the strongest I've ever seen (with girls getting perfect scores on the National Latin Exam every year, too). The principal I worked under there never would've hired anyone without academic credentials.

[harmonicon]

141. surprising to me too

My mom has a PhD in chemistry, and taught science at a Catholic high school for a few years in the 80's, even though she isn't Catholic. She would have liked to have kept teaching, but most schools couldn't afford to pay here what she would make working a hard science job. Maybe what's changed is that these religious schools are paying even less than public schools and so are getting even worse teachers. At my public high school, a few of the teachers had doctorates, and surprise surprise, they were the best ones. So far as I know, they've all since died or retired, and were replaced by young teachers with bachelor's degrees.

[JeanGrey]

134. "as good as" doesn't mean better. And I bet it depends a

LOT on what public school.

[rfranklin]

23. Exactly what propaganda have you been reading?

I have always been skeptical of the glowing reports about home schooling and religious private schools over the years. And, lo and behold, when the evidence is examined, the high marks they give themselves are usually not up careful scrutiny.

[norepubsin08]

40. My wife is a public school teacher

and lots of times these kids are home schooled until high school or jr high and then they come in as mal- adjusted kids because they have not been taught or experienced how to get a long with those different than they are.

[The Croquist]

101. This propaganda...

http://www.ncea.org/news/SATScores2007.asp

2007 SAT National Profiles Reported by Type of School

Type of School Critical Reading Math Writing
Public 498 509 488
Religiously Affiliated * 531 526 527
Independent 546 569 548

Unfortunately I can't find average California scores but according to this data nationally religious schools out preformed public schools.

[rfranklin]

114. That is because they are selective, not because they teach....

any better. In fact, the teachers are often less qualified, paid less and held to less stringent standards. My daughter's high shool in NJ would be a top school considering the rate of acceptance to top colleges. However, unlike the lily white privileged towns nearby, we have recent immigrants and disadvantaged minorities in the mix which brings the test scores and college acceptances a bit lower.

[The Croquist]

116. You are right that they are selective however

What I said was "I bet you the average Christian high school student has a better idea of pi then the average California high school student."

I have seen nothing to disprove that. On the other hand however I haven't been able to prove my statement either. Both sides have provided support for their statements. I will reply to Ingac70's response.

Ingac70's linked story:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080523162916.htm
Public Schools As Good As Private Schools In Raising Math Scores, Study Says

states that public schools do a better job from Kindergarten through 5th grade but does not address K - 12. However I am shocked at the report and glad that I read it.

On the other hand religious and private schools out preform public schools on SAT scores.

I also know teachers who have switched from private to public and are dismayed at the drop of student knowledge.

I also know that home schooled children tend to kick butt in spelling, math and whatever bees but I wonder how important that really is. I suspect that some of those kids only learn one subject.

Overall I still think that private schools out preform public schools if only because they can be selective but I also think that public schools should be less forgiving of students that are disruptive to those students who actually want to learn.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

125. That's because your comparison inherently dishonest.

I bet the average California high school student is more intellectually honest than you.

[JeanGrey]

126. My friend homeschooled all three of hers - they all went to

college on scholarships and she only had a high school diploma.

Another friend's son was going to be held back in the 2nd grade and she pulled him out, homeschooled him for six months and he passed a third grade test.

[Maat]

128. Thanks. I homeschool my daughter.

My husband and I don't do so badly given the two Bachelor's degrees, three Master's Degrees, and two doctorates between us. We are supervised by a credentialed teacher, and my daughter is tutored by the finest. She just does much better in an independent study (homeschool) program. We need to avoid generalizations here. Not all homeschoolers are hardright religious conservatives.

[JeanGrey]

133. No, they aren't. My friend wasn't particularly religious.

And it sounds like your credentials were fantastic. Some kids just do better one on one. One of the biggest problems I think with public schools are class sizes, and control. I had a friend who taught and she left for an office job. She used to tell me horror stories of what it was like to teach.

[Maat]

135. Precisely (n/t)!

[LiberalFighter]

36. The average Christian high school student probably knows what is there favorite pie.

[bertman]

93. Yeah, and they may know the difference between there and their, too.

[Critters2]

98. LOL!! I caught that, too.

:rofl:

[LiberalFighter]

138. My fingers are too fast.

[norepubsin08]

38. Yes that might be true

but they usually have a pin headed Nazi like tolerance of any view point different than theirs. They are the most likely to go to war in Jesus' name. They are the most likely to fall in to lockstep for a candidate that they are told to vote for...they are most likely to deny basic fundamental human rights to gays, the homeless, non believers and anyone different than them. It's all well and good to be a brain...but I believe it is more important to treat your fellow human with kindness respect and affirmation. As the prophet Micah said: "do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with your God" If a Christian school is going to teach off text...then that imho is the place to start!!!!!

[rpannier]

103. I hope you're making a distinction between fundamentalist Christian schools and Catholic schools

At Catholic schools the students there are quite often Protestants, esp in the inner-cities.

Many of the teachers there are not members of the Catholic faith.

As to concern for the homeless, Catholic schools do teach the importance of caring for the poor and providing for those less fortunate.

[norepubsin08]

105. Yes I do take that into account

however my wife taught in a Roman Catholic School for 15 years...it was in a rich North Tacoma school (St. Patrick's) and no they didn't have the fundie attitude, but it was a parrallel of it..."fuck everybody else" we're rich so who cares. The parents were aweful and the kids all grew up to be rich entitled snotty little brats.

[knitter4democracy]

120. That's what I saw when I taught in Catholic schools.

Granted, I've been home with my kids for 8 years, but I was amazed at how wonderful the schools I taught in were. I'm not Catholic, and I taught with several non-Catholic teachers, all of whom were there because it was the only job they could find and be happy in.

Our students were required to do service hours and class service projects, and many of them focused on the homeless and the poor. A full third of each school's student body at the time wasn't Catholic, and we took that into account in the required monthly Masses and religion classes.

[ooglymoogly]

60. Yes and they eat pi in there cafeterias every day

so there

[WCGreen]

66. Of course those co-called "Christian Schools" embrace

Catholic High Schools that are known for their ability to keep religion out of Science, Math and History.

Say what you will about the Catholic Religion, but Jesuit and Franciscan High Schools are some of the best in the country.

[YOY]

85. Damn true.

My Franciscan HS made fun of Creationists before they had their resurgance...

[Critters2]

99. See No. 97 nt

[norepubsin08]

109. My wife taught in the Catholic School system

and yes, you get a great ACADEMIC education...but the vast majority of the kids come out of there feeling that they are "better" than their public school counterparts. I remember many times when I myself was going to a Catholic school when the nun would make disparaging remarks about public school parents or the public school educated kids. It's all well and good to be educated academically, but then you also need the humility to be a servant and work for the common good instead of just amassing wealth. But what do I know? I spent most of my Catholic education standi ng out in the hall because the nun didn't want to listen to my challenges to her Religious instruction.

[knitter4democracy]

121. It depends on the school and who's in charge.

In the schools I taught in in the Cleveland Diocese, that kind of attitude only came from home, and we teachers fought darn hard against it.

[WCGreen]

131. St Ignacius and St. Edwards are two of the top schools in the region...

Mag's and St. Joe's really do a great job of educating the kids.

[knitter4democracy]

148. I don't know about Iggy.

I prefer Benedictine myself. ;)

Hubby was a long-term sub in chemistry for awhile at Iggy, and he was less than pleased with the rampant sexism. I taught at Beaumont (which kicks everyone else's ass!) and VASJ when we lived there. Good schools.

[Caliman73]

139. Your educational performance

Depends most on your general level of cognitive capacity and the attitude towards learning that you acquire prior to going into school. Parental is also important. Granted, attending a dangerous, underfunded school of any type will be an obstacle, but many students from under performing schools are able to push through. I went to Catholic school and part of our indoctrination was having to learn about Catholicism. We were also taught math, science, art, music, physical education, history, and all of the other requirements to get into the State and UC system. If you choose to go to a private religious school then you have to accept that you will be expected to at least regurgitate the teaching presented in religion class. Many of my class mates were atheist or agnostic. They often performed as well or better in religion than students who claimed more religiosity. It is about your ability to think critically and to memorize information.

The difference between religious schools and fundamentalist schools is the unwillingness of the fundamentalist schools to accept and teach the core curricula that is prescribed by the universities with regards to science. I don't know how this devolved into a bash session against private religious schools, but that is not what the ruling was about. It was about the schools not preparing the students for the requirements of a UC or State college curriculum by refusing to teach evolution. Catholics have acquired a reputation for their stance on abortion, homosexuality, and other personal social issues. Historically the Church has also had many problems with challenges to dogma, but as stated earlier, much of the scientific advances made have also come with patronage from the Church. Funny thing is if you ask a fundamentalist about Catholics, they will tell you we are all going to burn in hell for our "liberal" beliefs.

[montanto]

69. How much time have you spent

teaching in California high schools Georgia? Yes, private schools have the advantage of low class sizes (12:1 sounds good to me). We public H.S. teachers battle it out in the trenches every day with overcrowded too small classrooms with broken, missing, or antiquated equipment and furniture, all while spending tons of our own money (between my wife and I probably $4,000 or more a year) and our own time (when we are in session a minimum of 2 hours a day, which is money lost too) to deliver a message to students who barely speak English and whose parents, for the most part, don't give a rat's ass whether they succeed or not.

If we were funded like private schools and had low class sizes, we too would be successful and know what Pi is.

Kids who go to private religious schools have parents with money, and, whether we like their fundamentalism or not, these parents care about what happens to their kids, at least in terms of academics.

Apples and oranges Croquist, so get off of California public education until you know how hard we work and what sacrifices we make.

[pagandem4justice]

102. wOOt, montanto!

From a TX teacher slugging it out in those public school trenches, too. :yourock:

As long as private schools can cherry-pick their students (for whatever reasons, be they religious, monetary, or academic), they're not playing on an even field with us.

:headbang: :applause: :toast:

[norepubsin08]

113. Thank you

My wife is a public school teacher now but taught in the Archdiocese of Seattle school system for 15 years and when she switched she commented on the difference in salary (her salary rose 43% the day she entered teaching in the public school system) she said you work twice to three times as hard as in a private school because of all the variables in the human condition that you deal with. She also said she got more respect. Was treated more like a professional instead of a contracted slave.

[The Croquist]

129. I have spent no time teaching at all.

I never claimed to be a teacher. I know it can be frustrating and I respect (and to a degree pity) those that do it.

I never said (or meant to say) that private schools are better then public schools. What I said was

"I bet you the average Christian high school student has a better idea of pi then the average California high school student."

That was in response to people ragging on Christian schools with remarks like:
"Fundie science pi = 3, insects have 4 legs and the Earth is only a few thousand years old."

Private schools can choose their students and I think I understand how tough it is to have one or more "seat occupiers" disrupting the whole class. I wish that tougher discipline was the norm in public schools.

I don't think I am condemning California schools at all but I can understand why some people are sensitive about it.

[JeanGrey]

136. As my ex teacher friend said "we don't teach these kids, we

only babysit them, and we don't do a very good job of that". She used to tell me about the endless rounds of paperwork, the fact that they had very little support or supplies, and the biggest thing, that you had no control of your classroom. If you tried to discipline you either got in trouble with the administrators or mommy and daddy would be up in school threatening to sue you for hurting little Johnny's self esteem.

I just don't know how we got in this mess. I graduated in 72 and the few times a kid cussed a teacher or worse tried to hit them, it was goodbye Johnny. The teachers and administrators didn't tolerate it.....

I remember a kid in our high school who was older than everyone else, and he had the sweet habit of following girls around and saying nasty sexual things to them. He did it to me (I was 14) so much I told my best friend if I disappeared he had me. It got so bad I was crying one day in English class and after the class let out the teacher made me stay behind and point blank asked me what the heck was wrong. I told him, and he said "go on, I'll take care of it". A couple of days later this guy was waiting on me when I got out of the girls room and when he saw me he ran. I found out later my English teach cornered this guy and told him if he so much as looked in my direction again, he would "break both my arms".

If you did that now the teacher would probably be arrested.

[Maat]

130. I would never think of criticizing public education, particularly the hardworking teachers ..

and I'm a homeschooler that works through a charter school.

Thank you for you and your efforts.

My hubby's company writes software for the Texas educational system; there is nothing more important than parental environment, per their extensive analysis. In some districts, there is an administrator for every teacher; that money is obviously not going into the classroom, or to programs to help disadvantaged kids.

I worked for many years as a social worker, and I have friends and relatives who STILL are social workers. Things have been getting progressively worse in terms of the daily stress that parents experience. It is very difficult for many of them to help their kids become educated human beings by supporting the educational system. We badly need to get this country headed in a different direction.

[knitter4democracy]

119. Depends on the school.

The Catholic girls school I taught in ages ago had the best math and science program I've ever seen (sent a girl to the International Science Fair every year I was there). A couple of Baptist schools I interviewed at, though, were deplorable, and I ran from them. Terrible curricula.

[TalkingDog]

123. Ouch! That smarts....

or not.

[TlalocW]

89. Don't forget about bats

Bats are birds according to the Bible.

TlalocW

[Tesha]

150. The Indiana "Pi" bill...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Pi_Bill

[ncteechur]

3. Oooooo--They're going to hell for that one. eom

[TNOE]

41. LOL

First smile of the morning on that one. Thanks!

[RainDog]

4. YES! Yes for truth!

this is the only way the talibornagain idiots will shut up about this issue - when it costs them money.

[Occulus]

5. Excellent

It's time we started getting these farcial churches-in-disguise out of education.

Finally, after all these years, people are starting to see through the bullshit.

[mopinko]

7. woohoo for that.

we would never be in this mess without the texas school book committee. and we are exactly where the old hippie/lefties said we would be. in an f'ing mess.

[Taverner]

63. Fundie Schools are Christian Madrassas

[Festivito]

6. Sounds reasonable, although article's 1st sentence misleads.

A federal judge says the University of California can deny course credit to applicants from Christian high schools whose textbooks declare the Bible infallible and reject evolution.

UC can also accept course credit as long as the required elements such as evolution and critical thinking are also included with or alongside teaching rejection of evolution and teaching of Biblical inerrancy.

And it would not have to be limited to Christian schools either.

Add that infallibility is not the correct word for what he is trying to express. (That would imply that the Bible cannot fail us which is not a teaching of any church I know.)

I think the judge's point is if they have not studied the subject, e.g. evolution, they cannot get credit for having studied evolution. They can deny it, not believe in it, but they had to have studied it to get credit for it.

The article is sub-standard.

[fed_up_mother]

10. I agree.

[nxylas]

34. Yes, the way the article is worded does fuel the fundies' persecution complex

If I was someone who took newspaper reports at face value and didn't know to always read between the lines, I'd think the court had ruled that it's OK to discriminate against Christian students.

[crikkett]

39. The 1st sentence isn't misleading but I'll give you

C+ for nitpicking the semantics of it. I agree the article is substandard.

[Festivito]

137. That's why I avoided the english classes

and went through engineering.

If you have a better expression of my C+ attempt, I'd love to hear it.

[harun]

61. Unfortunate they didn't explain that better (n/t)

[katandmoon]

8. Another activist judge appointed by none other than W

[RainDog]

9. How is this an activist judge? n/t

[Sodbuster]

12. Any judge that doesn't agree with the fundies or W. on a ruling

must be an activist judge. Guess W. screwed the pooch on this one....

[Prophet 451]

13. ACTIVIST JUDGES!

i.e. "this judge made a decision I disagree with". The fundies will be starting their protests in 5, 4, 3.....

[formercia]

14. Get it right or fail

These students are going to have a terrible time trying to pass legitimate college courses because, not only do they have to learn the material the exams are based on, but they have to completely restructure their way of thinking in order to do it.

If people want to study religion, fine, but it won't get them a real job in the real World, unless it's with the Bush Administration.

[Sallow]

26. Then the Bush Justice department hires them.

As they did when they hired Regent's Lawyers.

Very scary stuff.

[norepubsin08]

42. or an asshole fundie church

that wants to hirer religious bigots!

[The Backlash Cometh]

16. It's about frickin time that critical thinking become a necessary standard

for higher learning.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

18. This ruling seems wrong ...

Christian High-School history books contain lies, therefore credit is denied?

What about history books in predominantly Islamic or Jewish high schools? No lies there? No topics missing? Maybe just perspective, or spin?

What about history books in almost all public high schools? No lies there? No topics missing? Maybe just perspective, or spin?

And this nonsense about lack of critical thinking being a reason to deny credits - "Critical Thinking" is not taught so much in public schools either, as it does not directly contribute to higher scores for the various tests under "No Child Left Behind".

Much as I dislike Fundie-Christian teachings in high school or home-school, denying credit based on religious training is discrimination and UC should reverse their ruling. Their job is to teach, not to punish.

[Tyler Durden]

19. When a Jewish or Islamic school does the same thing...

You can bet they will get the same treatment.

What you're saying sounds vaguely like "THEY'RE PERSECUTING CHRISTIANS AGAIN!!"

Nope. Just SCHOOLS that want to teach MYTHOLOGY as science and history.

[ElboRuum]

24. This is not a denial of credit based on religious training.

It is a revocation/denial of special treatment due to one's religious training. The coursework performed in these schools is insufficient to claim credit at the collegiate level.

[moggie]

25. Do you have any evidence that UC is giving a free pass to Islamic or Jewish schools?

And UC is not "discriminating" against Christian schools: from the article:

But Otero said in March that the university has approved many courses containing religious material and viewpoints, including some that use such texts as "Chemistry for Christian Schools" and "Biology: God's Living Creation," or that include scientific discussions of creationism as well as evolution.

Furthermore, "Most students qualify by taking an approved set of college preparatory classes; students whose courses lack UC approval can remain eligible by scoring well in those subjects on the Scholastic Assessment Test" (emphasis added).

From another article:

For instance, a UC professor who reviewed Calvary's proposed Christianity's Influence on America class said the course used a textbook that "instructs that the Bible is the unerring source for analysis of historical events," "attributes historical events to divine providence rather than analyzing human action," and "contains inadequate treatment of several major ethnic groups, women and non-Christian religious groups."

No credible historian, including Christian historians, would agree that "the Bible is the unerring source for analysis of historical events".

...UC should reverse their ruling. Their job is to teach, not to punish.

This is not punishment. It's simply ensuring that incoming students are suitably prepared. If a high school teaches a load of fantasy as fact, the university would need to spend a lot of time and effort undoing this damage and bringing the students up to speed. Universities have a finite number of places available, and finite resources.

If parents wish to send their kids to schools which fills their heads with nonsense, they must expect to face negative consequences. Why should the rest of the education system lower its standards to accommodate them?

[ElboRuum]

27. One other thing...

...the ruling does not deny course credit, but rather upholds the right of UC to do so in adherance to standards. In other words, just because one is a home-schooled or Christian-schooled high-schooler does not exempt one from the same admissions and crediting process to which people who went to public schools must adhere. From what I can see, the ruling affirms the right of schools to have and enforce the standards of admission and crediting that the schools have adopted. If a Christian student can't count, do you give him math credit?

[redqueen]

44. Religious training? Are you joking? They haven't learned *science*.

They have learned crap.

If other schools force the kids who attend to memorize crap instead of science, then I'm sure they'll be denied entry on the same basis.


I find it hard to believe you're not joking / trolling.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

49. I agree with all the slams on "x-tian science"

but the judge's remarks also covered the subject of "history". As I remember History classes in high school, there was little critical thinking, just a lot of memorizing dates, places, names, and events from the perspective of the good guys (USA). It's probably worse now, with NCLB scoring as the measure of success. History from a religious perspective would probably be the same exercise, just different people, places, dates, with a different twist.

Zinn was not required reading in my high school. Of course, when I went to high school, Zinn may not have been born yet.
:hi:

[redqueen]

51. Without a clarifiation of what exactly he meant when referring to history,

it's hard to analyze the implications of the statement, if any. I figure he just meant the history of the earth not being only a few thousand years old...

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

62. I'd call that "science" - fundie-geology 101

But when it comes to messing with forces of nature,

God gave Noah a warning, instructions, and some time to build a boat.

Our own industrial barons were not so kind ...
http://www.johnstownpa.com/History/hist19.html
No warning, although the poor barons did lose a lot of fish from their well-stocked man-made lake.

We didn't cover either flood in my public high school.

[Zhade]

145. Perfect example - Noah is not history. No evidence whatsoever that the Noah myth happened.

NT!

[pagandem4justice]

108. "History"

I teach History, not Science, but I consider myself to still have a dog in this fight, as they say, since by denying true scientific principles, the fundies are denying true historical principles as well.

Or do you think that History is appropriately taught as beginning a couple thousand years ago, with everything centered on a couple tribesmen from Ur, and the great empires of ancient Asia and Africa (Sumer, Egypt, etc.) as mere corollaries? What about presenting the cultures and religions of the world as utterly unimportant and morally deficient? Or teaching the "historical inevitability" of American hegemony based on "God's plan," with the added "bonus" of genocide being totally a-ok?

[Taverner]

64. Exactly RQ

[jberryhill]

72. Denying SCIENCE credit for "science" courses which do not teach science

...is not religious discrimination.

I'm sorry but if your religion teaches you that 2+2=5, and that's what your religious school "taught" you in math class then, no, you do not get math credit from an institution which is interested in whether you know MATH.

If some mechanical engineer believes it is "god's will" that will keep his bridge standing, instead of competent engineering design, we do not give him a pass and call it "discrimination" if we don't let him build our bridges.

One of my sons from a previous marriage is enrolled in one of these "Christian madrassas", and he got low marks in what they called a "science" class FOR ACTUALLY KNOWING ACTUAL SCIENCE.

If they want to teach religion and not science - that's fine, they have a right to do that.

What they do not have a right to do is to expect the UC to recognize their religion courses as "science" courses.

That's just idiotic.

[D23MIURG23]

83. This isn't discrimination. UC goes as far as allowing anti-scientific supplemental reading.

What they deny credit for are classes that teach overwhelmingly supernatural versions of subjects that aren't accepted by scholars. Students with unapproved classes can make up for the class by demostrating proficiency in the disciplines.

There has to be a bare minimal standard for what can and can't be called "education" or "fact". Pointing out that fallacies appear in secular textbooks doesn't erase the lunacy of accepting the validity of science and history courses that teach the bible as an infallable source.

[Wizard777]

115. Would you like to see a report on a samonella outbreak from the CDC that says,

God is angry because the FDA allows Pork to be sold when God has clearly prohibited it's consumption. The samonella out break is His divine vengence. Not I. I would like to see some science applied to the problem.

[Zhade]

144. Requiring students to learn the well-documented demonstrable facts is not discrimination.

NT!

[Maryland Liberal]

20. I have always thought...

that evolution and bible teachings were not at odds with each other.

[callous taoboy]

22. Creationism and science are 100% at odds with each other. n/t

[Maryland Liberal]

30. The Cardinal says...

THE Vatican has issued a stout defence of Charles Darwin, voicing strong criticism of Christian fundamentalists who reject his theory of evolution and interpret the biblical account of creation literally.

Cardinal Paul Poupard, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, said the Genesis description of how God created the universe and Darwin's theory of evolution were "perfectly compatible" if the Bible were read correctly.

His statement was a clear attack on creationist campaigners in the US, who see evolution and the Genesis account as mutually exclusive.

"The fundamentalists want to give a scientific meaning to words that had no scientific aim," he said at a Vatican press conference. He said the real message in Genesis was that "the universe didn't make itself and had a creator".

This idea was part of theology, Cardinal Poupard emphasised, while the precise details of how creation and the development of the species came about belonged to a different realm - science. Cardinal Poupard said that it was important for Catholic believers to know how science saw things so as to "understand things better".


His statements were interpreted in Italy as a rejection of the "intelligent design" view, which says the universe is so complex that some higher being must have designed every detail.

[redqueen]

52. These kids aren't going to Catholic schools, obviously.

They're going to schools that say that dinosaurs and man co-existed.

[rox63]

58. I went to Catholic schools

But I was taught real science and real history. Big difference from Fundie Christian schools. Why do fundies think that God can't handle metaphors and parables? That's what much of the Bible is made up of.

[jakefrep]

70. That was my experience as well...

I remember distinctly what my 7th grade Biology teacher said: "In this class, we don't talk about God."

They taught religion, but didn't allow it to pollute the rest of the curriculum.

[Hangingon]

94. My experience and my wife's too.

We did learn science and math. Religion came in religion classes.

[YOY]

86. Yup...the fundies in question don't consider Catholics "Christians" though

n/t

[JerseygirlCT]

111. Yeah, it's not just the science classes they seem to have missed

history seems more than a little weak, too...

[JerseygirlCT]

110. Add me to the list - and exactly

Never was I taught anything but the academic subjects at hand. (Though the content of my theology classes might not have thrilled the Cardinal, either!)

[yardwork]

55. Yes, but most Christians reject the idea that Bible teachings = "creation science."

I see no contradiction in believing that God created life and that life on earth has evolved. If God is the all-power creator, why not create evolution? Most Christians have no problem with this.

The extremist right-wing fundamentalists of all religions are against science because it interferes with their authoritarian world view.

[kestrel91316]

87. I always though that, if there IS a God, evolution was one of her coolest creations.

......Though there is this vision I have of her saying impishly, "Hmmmmm, let's see what happens if I do THIS!" (about evolution).

[JerseygirlCT]

112. Yes, I agree. I've never seen a conflict.

It's those who need to believe in the Bible as textbook, and for whom any deviation from a literal reading means the entire foundation of their faith is destroyed, who create the idea that science and religion must be in conflict.

They're different fields, they look at different things differently, and they do not need to conflict.

[callous taoboy]

76. I suppose I should have said creation "science" and science are not compatible.

[WriteDown]

32. I'm with you there...

I consider Genesis more of an allegory.

[redqueen]

45. Tell that to the "intelligent design" morons.

These kids are taught that the earth is a few thousand years old. That's WAY at odds with science.

:eyes:

[WriteDown]

48. Agree with you there...

I don't fault someone if they choose to believe this, but they should have a solid grasp of the theory of evolution as well.

PS. Try asking someone who believes this about the dinosaurs. The answers will crack you up.

[redqueen]

53. Yeah... I don't find it funny.

It's sad and frustrating.

I don't understand people that enjoy willful ignorance.

[WriteDown]

54. Faith is an interesting thing.

I don't know how life or thought began. I wake up each morning and just exist and am not sure why. I have to believe there is a higher power that started the wheels turning. Some day I suppose I'll find out.

[Iggo]

88. That's weird.

I wake up each morning and just exist.

[jberryhill]

73. Oh, it's better than dinosaurs...

Remember, every animal on the planet is descended from a breeding pair which disembarked from Noah's ark at Mount Ararat.

Apparently a whole bunch of non-placental mammals outran all of the carnivores across Asia and swam to Australia, and NO placental mammals managed to get there.

The polar bears headed north, and the penguins apparently swam through the mediterranean and went south.

It's utter madness - every species which is peculiarly adapted to its environment is able to migrate from western Turkey to wherever it lives now, and all of this happened not too long ago.

[TlalocW]

92. If you think about it, if you take the story of the Flood as literal

It offers a sort of proof for evolution - the kind of shoddy proof put out by the "scientific" types who support creationism at least. This isn't scientific, but it's fun to throw out to cause a few synapses to catch fire. Noah put a breeding pair of each kind of animal in the Ark. So there were two dogs, two elephants, two cats, etc. So all of the different kinds of animals come from their breeding pair, but if that's true, how did we get all the different breeds of dogs and cats? How did we get both Asian and African elephants? Noah didn't put Great Danes and Chihuahuas on the Ark - he put two dogs. All other dogs come from those two dogs, and the different changes must have come about from their evolving into different breeds.

Yes, very bad science, but like I said, it's "solid" enough to give them pause.

TlalocW

[azureblue]

81. I almost

Blew the mind of a fundie relative with this one" "God created and guides evolution. It is His hand that decides which genes will be passed on to the next generation, and it is He would decides how one species will evolve into the next."

Try it, you'll like it...

[callous taoboy]

21. Great news! Something similar happened here in TX:

I am lifting this from the Summer 2008 Texas Freedom Network newsletter:

In this case the Texas Higher Ed. Coordinating Board was considering an application by Dallas-based Institute for Creation Research (ICR) to offer master's of science education degrees. The ICR teaches that the Bible's story of creationism is both scientific and fact.

Granting state-approved master's degree in science education would have given the ICR's anti-science agenda dangerous credibility. Until January, it appeared that the institute might gain the state approval.

TFN swung into action and the media attention they generated caused the State Higher Ed. Board to slow down and review the facts more closely. In April, the full board wisely rejected ICR's application.

ICR is going to appeal on "viewpoint discrimination."

See, religious extremist don't understand what science is, firstly, and secondly they don't seem to understand the concept of college standards.

Please sign the petition to stand up for science at TFN's website:
http://www.tfn.org/site/PageServer?pagename=SUFS

[callous taoboy]

78. How you can help stand up for science in TX, under assault as I type:

Please sign the petition to stand up for science at Texas Freedom Network's website:
http://www.tfn.org/site/PageServer?pagename=SUFS

Please spread the word on this because it is going to be a battle royal this Fall when the TX ed. commission revamps science standards for the public schools.

[pagandem4justice]

106. Thanks for the heads-up, CT!

After seeing what happened with the ELA standards this spring (we were totally overruled and ignored), Science won't be a battle, it'll be a knock-down, drag-out WAR.

Hang in there! :yourock:

[Maat]

132. The Texas Freedom Network is an excellent organization! (n/t)

[fascisthunter]

28. GOOD... teach real science

you want to teach mythology, fine. Label it as such because that's what it is, creationism is not science.

[Solly Mack]

29. As it should be

[valerief]

31. Is this ruling a case of sanity or insufficient bribery? nt

[Auggie]

33. Recommended

[happygoluckytoyou]

35. so much for my doctorate in MAN CAN COEXIST WITH THE DINOSAUR

[Tesha]

151. Actually, man *CAN* co-exist with the dinosaur, but dinosaurs have evolved a bit! ;-)

[LiberalFighter]

37. I'm sure those students will be accepted by Bob Jones University

Maybe Bob Jones should be required to accept every student rejected by public or other private universities if for the same reason.

[redqueen]

46. Exactly! Want to pretend the earth is only a few thousand years old?

Well then, go to a "special" school for "special" people.

[bridgit]

43. Good.

[yellerpup]

47. Good job, Judge Otero.

K&R! :kick:

[jeff30997]

50. "omitted important topics in science and history "

I bet they measure lengths in Cubits.And oh Lord!No Walking on Water lessons at the University

California ? :rofl:

[keroro gunsou]

75. hee hee

god: i want you... to build... AN ARK!
noah: . . . . right! what's an ark?
god: get some wood, and build it 300 cubits by 80 cubits by 40 cubits.
noah: right.... what's a cubit?
god: let's see, a cubit, i used to know what a cubit was...

with apologies to bill cosby

[Taverner]

56. Rockin!!!!!!!

[NoodleyAppendage]

57. "failed to teach critical thinking" This should be an exclusionary criteria for ANY JOB OR SCHOOL.

America is as f'd up as it is right now because religious ideologs and Repuke ideals are "dumbing down" the citizenry. Want to be stupid and "with gOD," then fine so be it...but you will be relegated to flipping burgers and taking out the trash. ENOUGH!

J

[Thothmes]

147. or surviving on the tax payers dime?

[ooglymoogly]

59. There is intelligent life on this continent after all. nt kr

[Owl]

67. Good!

K&R

[tuckessee]

68. Some of those kids dislike their education track as much as others do.

As unemancipated minors, I doubt they had much say in whether they went to a fundie school or not. Such decisions are usually made by parents or guardians.

Some of those kids were probably chomping at the bit to get out of fundie world and delve into real higher learning but now they may not get a chance.

[Arugula Latte]

71. Fantastic!

Fairytales aren't textbooks.

[D23MIURG23]

77. Score one for reason. n/t

[Wapsie B]

79. Now let's see the same thing in the Bible Belt!

That would be real progress!

[DFW]

80. Thank goodness!

Requiring Universities to credit kids who have been fed this crap
is like requiring NASA to hire scientists who believe the moon is
made of green cheese.

[slackmaster]

82. As long as the decision is limited to specific courses and texts, it's fine

There is no reason a Christian school can't teach someone a fine art, calculus, or mechanical engineering.

[DFW]

84. Obviously, and it appears that this was precisely the case

The court said that UC was not required to credit the offensive
propaganda courses, it didn't even mention courses involving
genuine education, as there was no objection to them.

[mbperrin]

90. Imagine! requiring fact-based education!

The nerve!

:evilgrin:

[happyslug]

91. The opinion is not YET posted on the Court's web site, but here is where it should be:

http://www.cacd.uscourts.gov/CACD/RecentPubOp.nsf/Recently+Issued+Opinions+and+Orders?OpenView

[benld74]

95. From Science blogs dot com on the court case,,,

http://scienceblogs.com/authority/2007/08/more_on_the_california_creatio.php

[marshall]

100. The first paragraph is misleading

It makes it sound like they are rejecting the credit solely because of their belief in the Bible as infallible and reject evolution. Reading on one finds out that the real issue is critical thinking and omissions of history--not religious viewpoints of an opinion about the theory of evolution.

[billyoc]

104. The nuns laughed at creationism when I was in Catholic school.

[JerseygirlCT]

107. Good. That's an entirely reasonable ruling

You can believe whatever you will. But that doesn't mean that academics need conform to your personal beliefs. UC should be absolutely free to determine what gets academic credit.

[knitter4democracy]

117. They can always go to Christian colleges, though they're more expensive.

I went to one, and many of my fellow students had been homeschooled or had gone to Christian schools. If they're so committed to Christian ed, they can go to a Christian college instead.

[yellowcanine]

122. By their argument colleges would have to let Amish in who only have an 8th grade education.

And I know - not many Amish try to go to college. Actually the few who do usually get GEDs and get in that way. But the point is, a college can set certain course requirements for admission and it is up to the student to make sure he/she gets those courses if his high school curriculum failed to meet the requirements, regardless of the reason, religious, or just incompetence. Funny, I don't remember these fundies demanding college admission for black students who failed to finish their high school graduation requirements because Prince Edward County in Virginia closed the public schools as part of Harry Byrd's "massive resistance" to Supreme Coourt ordered school desegration in the 60s.

[indepat]

124. Hallelujah! My daughter, who teaches in the UC system, has spoken of this

very issue raring its ugly head, stating she tells her incoming students that she will be teaching evolution and anyone who has a problem with that should withdraw from her class that first day. :D

[Divine Discontent]

140. wow... I'm a Christian, and this ISN'T about being Christian

it's about the absurdity of blocking thought, and discussion. One thing we all have to learn to grow throughout our lives is the ability to discuss things with maturity and wisdom. To block certain discussions doesn't foster that strength, and thus, it's interesting to see UC take that viewpoint that these young adults don't have a real credible education, even if they appear brilliant, they still are lacking b/c of the way they were stopped from hearing different ideas.

'justabozoonthisbus', has some good arguments however, above.

Interesting story!

www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable

[Zhade]

142. Good ruling. If you reject the facts, you don't get the credit. Completely fair.

No one has a RIGHT to college credit, especially when they don't meet the requirements to earn it!

[HockeyMom]

152. Comparative Religions

I went to Catholic school. There was one year that we spend just studying about other religions. The whole gamut, even getting down to debates on whether there is a god or there isn't. I even took a state test that year on it. So, yes I did get credit for that. Anyway, we were taught evolution in science class. God created evolution is what they said. lol At any rate, we didn't sit around reading Bibles even in religion classes.

It sounds totally different in these other christian schools.