Putin accuses U.S. of orchestrating Georgian war

[maddezmom]

Source: CNN


(CNN) -- Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has accused the United States of orchestrating the conflict in Georgia to benefit one of its presidential election candidates.


In an exclusive interview with CNN's Matthew Chance in the Black Sea city of Sochi Thursday, Putin said the U.S. had encouraged Georgia to attack the autonomous region of South Ossetia.

Putin told CNN it was done to benefit a presidential candidate -- Republican John McCain and Democrat Barack Obama are competing to succeed George W. Bush.

Putin said Russia had no choice but to invade Georgia after some of its peacekeepers in South Ossetia were killed. He told Chance it was to avert a human calamity.

~snip~

He also announced economic measures which he said were unrelated to the fighting with Georgia. Nineteen U.S. poultry meat companies would be banned from exporting their products to Russia because they had failed health and safety tests, and 29 other companies had been warned to improve their standards or face the same ban, Putin said.



Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/28/russia.georgia.cold.war/index.html?section=cnn_latest

---

Great Opinion Piece!

My Turn: Georgia war: What they’re not telling us
Joe Randazzo • August 28, 2008

On the front page of The Burlington Free Press on Aug. 14, an article appeared titled, “McCain: Rethink U.S.-Russia relations,” by Charles Babington of The Associated Press. McCain called for a complete re-examination of U.S. relations with the Moscow government. He also said there should be heightened security arrangements for Ukraine, the Baltic states and Poland.

The American people have the right to know the facts about John McCain and his connection to the Georgia war. This war may very well be the dirty trick that everyone has been expecting from those in power, to try and tip the balance in the Republican candidate’s favor in the November presidential election.


Let me explain. Georgia has become an important satellite state for the United States. They have sent 2,000 troops to Iraq, surpassed only by America and Great Britain. A U.S. backed oil pipeline runs through Georgia, providing much needed oil to the West while bypassing Russia and Iran. The 1,100-mile pipeline carries more than 1 million barrels of crude per day. Once again the motive for our involvement is cheap oil.

Randy Scheunemann is John McCain’s foreign policy and national security adviser, and very possibly his future secretary of state. He was formerly a paid lobbyist who worked for his friend and former employer, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili. According to an article by Robert Scheer, from Truthdig, “It was Scheunemann who, after working on the McCain 2000 presidential campaign, headed the committee for the Liberation of Iraq, which championed the U.S. invasion of Iraq. ... In 2005, while registered as a paid lobbyist for Georgia, Scheunemann worked with McCain to draft a congressional resolution pushing for Georgia’s membership in NATO. A year later, while still on the Georgian payroll, Scheunemann accompanied McCain on a trip to that country, where they met with Saakashvili and supported his bellicose views toward Russia’s Vladimir Putin.”


more:http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080828/OPINION/80828017/1006

[PDJane]

1. Wise man........

I fully suspect he's correct.

[HannibalBarca]

140. Are you actually serious????

This is Vladimir "KGB" Putin who has "relinqueshed" the presidency only to still run the country by proxy. I won't mention chechnya or any other of his or Russia's numerous transgressions. Your dislike of Bush and his cronies have caused you to adopt the enemy of my enemy is my friend axiom which in this cause is utterly incorrect.

[PDJane]

151. Yeah, I know who it is.

I also know that Bush and his neo-con cronies need a miracle to stay in power, and they have no intention of relinquishing the levers of control.

Why do you think that bush's cronies are now all through the government? How much time do you think it will take to root out the idealogues from Justice, the Environment, Health, and the military, to name a few? Why do you think there's a wasteful and stupid homeland security? Why do you think there are "retention centres" courtesy of Halliburton?

Taking back the country is going to be an uphill slog, and watching for the manipulations of public opinion should become a game.

I know that Putin is an ex KGB man. Most of Israel's leaders have been military and/or terrorists. Iran's leadership is religious in nature and dictatorial in effect; most of the world seems to be heading that way, thanks to the Great Game of the US and Britain.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

216. DON'T BET ON ANYTHING WITH THE NEOCONS AROUND

[ooglymoogly]

189. Isn't it strange how the folks in Russia love Putin

while we and the rest of the world hate our thief in chief. We know our installed leaders lie at any opportunity...and anyone who has followed this closely knows Putin is telling the truth. Your goody two shoes jive talk won't sail around here. Looking with a jaundiced eye toward others and rose colored glasses at our own is, to put it mildly, foolish.

[Duncan]

209. I'm drinking but want to post anyway.

I'm not enough of a truth junky to know exactly what to make of Putin or Medvedev. Of the little I have heard of what they have publicly said, I have not heard any of what I would call "horseshit". At least not as much as I'm used to from the GOP. Do I trust any politician of any stripe? FUCK NO! Do I mistrust Obama less than any viable presidential candidate in my political lifetime? FUCK YES!

[jhrobbins]

191. I never understand why a certain faction side with 'other' dictatorial

leaders as if we are the only country that has one. Putin is NO choirboy. The other night Bill Maher made somewhat the same claim while interviewing Boris Kasparov(sp) and he, Kasparov, said how do you know what you are saying is true - your information comes from the 'official' press. Come on folks, let's not let our dislike (hatred) of Bush and Co. blind us to other despots. It's not that black and white.

[MattSh]

227. WTF is Maher interviewing Kasperov?

He's taking someone who's at best a fringe right-wing political figure and making him out to be someone of some importance.

From a December article by Mike Whitney...

What is Kasparov doing in Moscow anyway? And why is this little man--with virtually no political base--such a big part of the western media narrative? Is he just there to toss a little muck on Putin or is there more to it than that? Kasparov's party, the “Other Russia” couldn't manage even a 2% rating in the polls. The party is a complete dud. In fact, Reuters even (reluctantly) admits as much in its article.

Here's the clip. Reuters:

“Kasparov and his “Other Russia” dissident movement are not standing in Sunday's parliamentary election because they could not get registered as a party. THEY ENJOY LITTLE PUBLIC SUPPORT AMONG RUSSIANS BUT HAVE A BIG FOLLOWING IN THE WEST.” (Reuters)

“Big following in the West”? Why doesn't that surprise me?

So, in other words, Kasparov has no base of support in Russia, and yet he gets his own camera crew and media team to follow him around recording every silly he says. That's just great. Who do they think he is; Nelson Mandela?

Kasparov is a contributing editor of Murdoch's Wall Street Journal; so he already has a convenient platform for launching his tirades at the “tyrannical” Mr. Putin. Normally, one doesn't get a spot on the op-ed page of the WSJ unless their politics are somewhere to the right of Augusto Pinochet. That's probably the case with Kasparov, too.

In Saturday's edition of the WSJ, Kasparov delivered his latest harangue— disparaging Putin and recounting his agonizing 5 day ordeal in the Moscow poky. What a travesty. It seems that Kasparov's delicate physical make-up made it impossible for him to eat prison food so “thanks to growing pressure , they allowed me to receive food packages from home”. (WSJ)

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/11382

So he's a contributing editor to the Wall Street Journal. Can you say "fringe nut case"? Sure, I knew you could...

[EFerrari]

232. Acknowledging that Putin may be right is not the same as siding with him.

[DailyGrind51]

192. Putin understands people like Rove and Cheney because they think like him!

[LaStrega]

221. No matter your thoughts on Putin ...

It cannot be disputed that Rove, when he was supposed to be appearing for a subpoena, was in Georgia meeting with Saakashvili. The time frame is uncanny, no?

[Grinchie]

226. George Herbert Walker Bush Was CIA

And we invaded a few territories under his watch.
What is your point?

[swilton]

257. Putin being correct about his political assessments

is mutually exclusive from being a friend.

It's interesting how many of Russia's transgressions we notice; do you care to enumerate the transgressions of the US and Israel...That never gets mentioned.

Casting stones at Russia does not excuse the many transgressions of the US of A...post Vietnam - too many to count.

[Kire]

231. What part of "he presented no evidence to back it up." don't you understand?

Say you want, but I think you're wrong, and participating in a "flame war" that could just keep escalating toward international proportions.

With this post, I would like to go on the record that there should be evidence before Bush, who, unfortunately, is still President, use force.

I think I'll write my Senator right now.

thank you

UPDATE: I wrote Lautenberg, via www.congress.org.

[NoSheep]

256. Yes. I smelled a rat immediately. Too well timed. Too much oil.

McSame can't stop talking about Russia.

[TheDebbieDee]

2. I think it is sad that a foreign leader has more credibility with me

than my own pResident.

Mr. Putin spouts the truth, methinks!

[caledesi]

7. I agree! NT

[The Croquist]

31. That says sad things about you

Don't you remember the murder of Alexander Litvinenko?
Don't you remember Chechnya?
Don't you remember Putin installing himself as Prime Minister?
Don't you remember how Putin silenced the press and ended democracy in Russia?
Don't you remember how Putin's Russia drugged the mother of a Kursk victim to shut her up on television?
Don't you remember how Putin used poisonous gas, killing at least 129 in Moscow theater hostage crisis?
Don't you remember how Putin killed at least 334 people during the Beslan school hostage crisis?
Don't you remember how Putin respects Stalin the #1 mass murderer of the 20th century?

I can understand not believing a word that Bush says but why would anyone support this pig?

[Andy823]

36. Nobody said Russia was perfect

And you can list as many war crimes by Bush, Cheney, and all their buddies as Russia has. Bush is no better than Putin, and the deaths in Iraq are on his hands, untold hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of innocent people have died because of Bush's uncalled for war. What is the difference between him and Putin? Do you think Bush would NOT start a war to help keep republicans in office?

[movonne]

129. I agree with everything you say...

[bjobotts]

136. I said from the start-McCain would rather start a war than lose an election

I only hope people wake up to this man before it is too late. He will mire the world in war and get many o fus killed. He can't wait to unleash nuclear weapons...just call him chicken.

McCain...wrong on everything and lying about it.

[DissedByBush]

193. Go for it

"And you can list as many war crimes by Bush"

Seriously, go for it.

Putin came to power in an FSB-engineered coup that involved five deadly apartment bombings (they caught FSB agents setting one) that Putin tried to blame on Chechnya to start the second Chechen war and bring him to power. Anyone within Putin's reach who tried to expose this was assassinated (liberal politician Sergei Yushenkov), died suspiciously (Yuri Shchekochikhin of thallium poisoning and investigative journalist Artyom Borovik in a plane crash) or was jailed (bombing investigator Mikhail Trepashkin).

As far as what people are accusing McCain and Bush of doing now, Putin's been there, done that, in spades.

Putin most likely had corruption-exposing journalist Anna Politkovskaya murdered and tried to blame it on an enemy of Putin's, the oligarch Berezovsky who helped bring Putin to power.

His FSB is suspected of many other deadly terrorist acts within Russia.

His FSB kidnapped many innocent people in Chechnya, trying to blame it on the Chechens.

Then of course to the current situation, where Putin fomented rebellion in Georgia and then used the Georgian government's response as an excuse to invade. Check out this http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?idr=1&id=703046">Russian article from a year ago. The Georgia invasion isn't new. Putin's been planning to take over Georgia for a long time.


Bush probably wishes he were in the same class as Putin. Bush isn't even close, he's an amateur in comparison.

[IsItJustMe]

212. Faux news rots your brain.

[DissedByBush]

214. I made it a point not to watch Fox a long time ago

Much of this, especially the FSB plotting in Georgia, comes from Russian and other foreign sources.

I'm still trying to figure out why I'm seeing so much love here for a bloodthirsty despot who wants to re-establish the Russian empire. It's hard to see anyone here being as dumb as Bush and believing Putin has the soul of a man you could trust.

[Fedja]

242. You went there

Bush came to power by court appointment after an election he did not win. That's a coup d'etat. Your claims that FSB bombed apartments are neither corroborated nor proven. Suspicious deaths are not assassinations, they're suspicious deaths.

You claim that Putin most likely had a journalist murdered. I acknowledge your speculation, but call bullshit on you trying to pass it off as fact.

FSB kidnapped innocents in Chechnya? Lets just assume you're right and point out Gitmo where the US kidnapped people from all over the world, regions in no way connected with any current conflict. Italy sentenced CIA operatives for kidnapping. How many FSB agents did EU countries sentence for kidnapping their citizens?

South Ossetians have wanted independence for generations, they're a different nation and culture than the Georgians. They use a different alphabet even. The "conflict" in that area has been present for generations, and the Georgian response was an artillery strike on a civilian capitol. That's not an excuse to invade, the invasion was as justified as the US bombing of Serbian forces in Kosovo.


Nobody's saying Putin isn't a badass that pays little regard to "modern" democratic processes. However in this case, he's likely correct in his statement. The US has visibly ramped up visits and reacharounds in Georgia leading up to the escalation. The Georgians aren't suicidal, they knew Russia would move in if they shelled South Ossetia. What could they possibly have to gain? Why would they do it in spite of such great risk to themselves? The US told them they'll watch their back. Without US meddling in Georgia, there's NO WAY in hell this conflict would become an outright military one. Russia is simply too scary to piss off like that.

Your post is a pure ad-hominem attack on Putin with no regard to the merit of his statement (or lack thereof).

[DissedByBush]

275. Comparisons

"Bush came to power by court appointment after an election he did not win. That's a coup d'etat."

That's a bloodless coup d'etat if true. Half the people in this country believe the Supreme Court just followed the law, so it's our opinion, not established fact. Bush may also have been planning a war before becoming president, but Putin started a war to become president.

"Your claims that FSB bombed apartments are neither corroborated nor proven."

Did you not read the part about FSB agents getting caught setting bombs? Did you not catch the part about most of the investigators of that dying under suspicious circumstances or being jailed by Putin?

"How many FSB agents did EU countries sentence for kidnapping their citizens?"

None, it happened in Chechnya. It was more of what you think Bush can pull off -- doing something bad and blaming it on your enemy.

"South Ossetians have wanted independence for generations, they're a different nation and culture than the Georgians. They use a different alphabet even. The "conflict" in that area has been present for generations, and the Georgian response was an artillery strike on a civilian capitol."

You apparently missed the part about Russia arming and financing the rebels and sending in FSB agents to stir things up.

"The US has visibly ramped up visits and reacharounds in Georgia leading up to the escalation."

Georgia has been looking to make friends with the west and join NATO, distancing itself from Russia. Of course that's going to happen as we're a big NATO partner. Putin could not stand losing another former satellite state to the West.

"What could they possibly have to gain?"

Stopping an attempted coup and not losing sovereign territory. We've known they've been trying to do this for at least a year now.

Basically what you have is a very bad man with imperialist aspirations and unlimited power trying to blame his actions on another bad man whose military actions could be quite limited if the Democrats running Congress desired to limit them.

I seriously cannot believe you trust anything Putin says. Ad hominem? Yeah, I'm really going to believe the Devil if he says he's here to help me. Am I not going to believe him simply because he's the Devil? Well, of course!

[IsItJustMe]

211. Preach it Andy. I got your back and I love the points you made.

[Fedja]

243. He made points?

[TheDebbieDee]

37. Where in my post do I say I support Putin?

I simply said he has more credibility with me than our current pResident.

You say sad things about yourself when read things that aren't there into other people's posts (you need reading comprehension classes or something).

Back the eff off me and go start your fire with someone else!

[The Croquist]

108. By saying that a pig like Putin has more credibility then an idiot like Bush

you are supporting Putin.

If you said that neither one could be trusted I would agree with you but that is not what you said.

[bjobotts]

137. Look at the issue at hand. The lobbyist money, the pet senator on a leash

[bjobotts]

138. It's McCain's and Schuenemann's MO. Lied us into Iraq.Lied about torturing

[bjobotts]

141. I didn't need Putin to tell me. It's pretty obvious. McCain would say or do anything to win

[treestar]

145. Exactly.

And it's black and white thinking to argue that because Putin says a thing that makes it automatically wrong.

[ba5500]

181. RE:I didn't need Putin to tell me. It's pretty obvious. McCain would say or do anything to win

Agreed.

[jeff30997]

41. I totally agree with you, The Croquist.

Putin is a damn monster.Just like Bushco except that he's far more intelligent.Those guys(Bushco

and Putinco) are playing an extremely dangerous "game".I'm very worried about all this.

[The Stranger]

47. Why would anyone believe Putin?

Because he is right.

And watch it with your disingenuously changing "believing" Putin into "supporting" him.

That shit isn't going to fly around here.

[The Croquist]

112. Has it occurred to you that Russia may have setup the war?

They had every reason in the world to start this war.

Georgia on the other hand had every reason not to fight Russia. Amazingly however Georgia decided to attack Russian troops. That was either stupid or a setup. I think it was a setup.

Don't give me this crap about changing "believing" into "supporting". DU has been full of that for the last 2 weeks. All of a sudden Putin, who we all regarded with distrust, has become the savior of freedom and Georgia is a vile "aggressor" nation.

My opinion of Putin hasn't changed. Can you say the same?

[The Stranger]

123. "Amazingly however Georgia decided to attack Russian troops."

Fucking amazing, isn't it?

They thought the Neocons would come to their rescue, and that should tell you who set this up.

[bjobotts]

142. Believe the facts, the timing, the history of Schuenemann, $800,000

Why would you not believe it...Just because Putin's a monster too. Why did Georgia attack NOW. Why Georgian president tied to McCain? McCain would rather start a war than lose an election.

You just want to argue...but the timing says it all. Saashcavili is as much a monster as Putin. No...this was McCain's set up, he stood to gain more than any of them and Schuenemann in the region meeting with Georgia pres. just before it occurred. That's picture perfect McCain.

[The Croquist]

271. What timing?

Maybe you can explain why this was such a good time for Georgia to take on Russia.
Was it the Olympics?
Did they think that Putin would be to busy ogling the beach volley ballers to care?
Was it because The Russian Army just happened to be conducting exercises across the border?
Was it because they had 10% of their army overseas at the time?

Exactly why was this such a good time for Georgia to attack?

As for this being McCain's setup, what a joke. Maybe you need thicker tinfoil.

[bushmeister0]

61. Putin went Soviet all over her!

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/08/25/russia.jab/

[SergeyDovlatov]

132. More humane than tazer, isn't it? Don't tase me, sister.

[Phoonzang]

62. You're support him because he defies Bush.

Doesn't matter what kind of horrible atrocities he created. Every list of his crimes has to be countered with "But, but, Bush did...". Doesn't matter if it was a reanimated Adolf Hitler, you're supposed to like him if he was an enemy of Bush. Because NO ONE is worse that Bush.

In case it's needed.... :sarcasm:

[IsItJustMe]

213. Lot's of folks are just plain more interested in the truth around here than hearing the same old

bull shit media coverage and Bush talking points. No matter where that truth might take them. Hurray for our side is all good and dandy, but the truth seems to scare you. Wake the fuck up and smell the coffee my friend.

[Grinchie]

228. Bush sucks because he's a Fascist wrapped in the cloak of Democracy

That he stole from us.

Bush is much worse than Putin, simply because he sullies the word American Democrcy.

It's like the Officer in the Military that get's the harsher sentence, due to the fact that he is expected to live up to a higher standard as an Officer.

Well, those days are over, and the Organized Corporate Criminals are running America.

Putin is merely identifying them publicly for the world to see. Putin knows that the American Economy is a smoke screen -- a house of cards ready to collapse.

He's retrenching and taking care that he guards his Natural resources that are going to be sorely needed when our crumbling infrastructure needs to be repaired.

Putin is holding the cards, and BushCo is left without much of a hand. Perhaps Putin saw the attempt to insert another Israeli type regime on its doorstap and nipped it in the bud.

Seriously though, I see nothing in Saakashvili that would warrant the type support we give to Israel yearly.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

85. You know what's "sad"? I believe Russia's pig over ours. ...n/t

[The Croquist]

113. I can understand that. although I disagree.

At least you acknowledge that Putin is still a pig.

PS: What is worse a pig or an idiot?

[Qutzupalotl]

164. An idiot is worse than a pig.

An idiot thinks he can play the world domination game, and fails.

You'll find no love of Putin on this board. Besides, Putin doesn't care about our politics. He wants power and money, and not in that order.

This election cycle, the Democrats are supporting Georgia because it's a fledgeling democracy. Russia doesn't like that. But the Republicans are elbowing out Russia on some valuable business deals. That pisses Vladimir off to no end, and he's decided to call bullshit on McCain and his advisor's contracts.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

254. I could just imagine Bushco offering Putin a couple billion to start a war...

...then Bush and Cheney's defense interests will sell them arms.

[Qutzupalotl]

285. Putin? More like Saakashvili.

[Dora]

133. Asshole despots can be credible too.

As an example, Saddam Hussein was telling the truth about WMD.

[ba5500]

182. RE:Asshole despots can be credible too.

It's too bad our president is such a thicko.

[Joe Chi Minh]

135. Don't you remember Chile? and the rest of South America?; or Iraq? or Afgahanistan?

[treestar]

144. You're making it about personalities only

Putin may be a pig, but I supsect he is right on this one, at least as to US motive for sticking its nose in.

That Putin is a pig does not mean we have to dance to McCain and Scheuneman's tune for the benefit of themselves and their friends in the military industrial complex. It doesn't mean we have to let McCain lead us down a path of more destruction.

[bjobotts]

146. Agreeing with him is not supporting him.The TIMING,Lobbyists$, history of Schuen.

All make it quite believable even if you wouldn't give Putkin the time of day and even if you think it was exactly what he wanted to happen to give him an excuse to move in on the Attacking Georgians..It still speaks volumes about every lobbyists "pet senator on a leash"---John McCain...who would rather start a war than lose an election...which is what he is in the process of doing...even if it's a cold war,...it will work until he can figure a way to attack Iran...lied us into attacking Iraq. Lied about torturing and rendition.

[DutchLiberal]

158. They support this pig because he is 'against Bush'. Petty and pathetic, I know...

But hatred against Bush is SO big, otherwise rationally thinking people are willing to sacrifice Georgia and its people over it.

[IsItJustMe]

215. I don't hate him. I think he is a terrible leader. I seek truth. I am more interested in the

truth than winning some petty argument. There may be some truth to this. Before making stereotypical judgments on people here, why don't you just kick back a little bit, bite your tongue a little bit, and see just what the hell is going on.

[DutchLiberal]

279. No, I won't "kick back a little." I have followed the other threads on this subject...

And the pattern is obvious: otherwise rationally thinking people are now believing Vladimir Putin, one of this world's biggest liars/crooks/dictators/murderers (you name it), only because he "stands up" against Bush.

Yes, Saakashvili should not have used military force against South-Ossettia. I think we all agree on that. But what I can't stand, is the fact that the majority of the DU community seems to think this legitimizes Russia occupying both Ossettia AND Abchasia, as well as regions OUTSIDE both break-away provinces, and engage in ethnic cleansing of both provinces. All this brutal disproportional violence somehow is alright, for the only reason that 'Mikhail Saakashvili is an allie of Bush'. As if the people of Georgia should be punished for that. And another newsflash: don't think for a minute Saakashvili wouldn't be America's allie if Clinton or Obama had been president.

[fascisthunter]

161. You Think Bush is Better????

:crazy:

[kestrel91316]

166. We remember Bush laughing and pretending to look for WMD's

under his podium, and we remember Katrina.

We remember PNAC and their goal of shrinking government until it was small enough to drown in a bathtub, and we remember eight years of witnessing that drowning.

Don't talk to me or anybody else here about how evil Putin is. We've got the same kind of folks occupying the White House, but THAT'S GONNA CHANGE REAL SOON.

[Swagman]

208. one who we can believe : Mickael Gorbechev says the same

[DutchLiberal]

281. Oh yeah, the communist dictator who wanted to keep the SU alive...

Wow, what a credible source.

[barbtries]

53. yep, me too.

it's pathetic. putin is probably not a whole hell of a lot better either. but on this point i do believe him before i'll believe anything the gw admin says.

[rebel with a cause]

69. Why would anyone not believe him?

The president(?) of Georgia said the same thing about mccain when he lost the confrontation with Russia. Anyone who was not an idiot should have caught on then what had gone on then if they were paying attention. He said it, the media covered his speech, then quickly dropped it.

The entire news media now is a pathetic corporate piece of crap. If there is any independent agencies out there putting out the truth, they are not getting heard by most of us.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

89. Thank Bill Clinton for his Telecommunications Act...

It was under his presidency that the mass consolidation of our news outlets began. We use to have over eighty moguls owning our airwaves, now we have...what about five or six?

I would like to clean house and remove ANY politician, republican or democrat who help Bushco destroy our country.

[Grinchie]

229. Amen Kathy

The Clintons played the system and set the stage for the BushCo revolution and the Corporatists. They enabled a lot of the crap that we have seen.

[The Croquist]

115. What did Mikheil Saakashvili say?

[rebel with a cause]

154. I don't remembe exactly.

But he has said that condi rice promised him american backing. And right after the conflict he said that mccain needed to stop saying things and take action, or something like that? I know that people here immediately caught it. After all mccain is not president and the way Saakashvilli sounded it seemed that mccain and he had an agreement. JMO :shrug:

Perhaps someone still has a link to that.

[DutchLiberal]

172. Saakashvili mentioning McCain would certainly have made the European media...

And no such thing has been reported, to my best knowledge.

[rebel with a cause]

186. I'm sorry but he did mention mccain.

Whether it was because mccain was having news conferences or because of deals made behind closed doors, but he did mention his name. If European media did not mention it, that is on them.

[DutchLiberal]

188. Please, show me where and when Saakhasvili mentioned McCain...

Please give me a transcript, a video, or even a news article will suffice.

[rebel with a cause]

196. It was said on CNN on August 13 th

Georgian president to McCain: Move 'from words to deeds'

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/13/georgian-president-to-mccain-move-from-words-to-deeds/

Happy!! One thing you should know, I DO NOT LIE!

He may not have out and out said that mccain had promised them anything, like he did about condi rice, but he did mention mccain. With the information that was here on the board about mccains dealings with the lobbyist for Georgia, the people on the thread put that together with this interview and thought there was a chance that mccain was involved in it along with bush.

[DutchLiberal]

197. I never thought or said you lied. I had and have no reason to assume you did...

Just wanted a source, and now I have one. Thank you. :)

[rebel with a cause]

198. Okay,

sorry. just a little touchy today I guess. Dealing with adult children (and ex-husbands that refuse to disappear off the face of the earth) does that to you sometimes. ;)

[druidity33]

168. food for thought...

try this article and see what you think:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bernardhenri-levy/georgia-at-war-what-i-saw_b_120076.html



:shrug:

[redqueen]

3. "to benefit a presidential candidate"... he didn't say which one?

[global1]

8. Hmmm - Let Me Guess - Does His Name Start With Mc And End With Cain?....nt

[redqueen]

10. Why would the Liberal CNN make us guess about it, if he meant McCain?

Seriously, I'm so sick and tired of the corporate media, and all the clueless useful idiots who can't seem to work out for themselves that they are being PLAYED.

:banghead:

[orleans]

43. i was thinking the same thing...

"Putin told CNN it was done to benefit a presidential candidate -- Republican John McCain and Democrat Barack Obama are competing to succeed George W. Bush."

what the fuck kind of sentence and reporting is THAT?

[redqueen]

54. The kind that goes out of its way not to hurt poor old John McSame's carefully constructed "image".

That's just what our "liberal" media does.

[barbtries]

68. no, no, no

they ARE the play. they know what's up

[redqueen]

95. The audience knows?

Sorry... no... the ones I know who are True Believers... they HONESTLY believe the media is liberal.

[DutchLiberal]

173. Why not Obama? After all, Brezinski is one of his closets advisers...

And he would love nothing more than war with the Russians.

[feemee]

39. McBush

Once again the American people will say they did not know what their government was doing in their name.Ignorance is not an excuse.

[RethugAssKicker]

4. He's right...... but I think its more than just trying to help McSame

[Schema Thing]

5. Oh, so now he wants to play chicken

[Ian David]

6. Vladimir Putin: Prime Minister of Obvioustan. n/t

[bdamomma]

9. hmm....sounds like Putin has got it.

[harun]

13. Many people here on DU have said the same thing. Horrible if it is true.

[liberal N proud]

11. The dogs master can see who is playing with his pups tail

[prolesunited]

12. Perhaps this has something to do with it

WASHINGTON — John McCain's chief foreign policy adviser and his business partner lobbied the senator or his staff on 49 occasions in a 3 1/2-year span while being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars by the government of the former Soviet republic of Georgia.

The payments raise ethical questions about the intersection of Randy Scheunemann's personal financial interests and his advice to the Republican presidential candidate who is seizing on Russian aggression in Georgia as a campaign issue.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/13/mccains-top-foreign-polic_n_118743.html

[The Croquist]

118. Putin used to be in the KGB

Spy agencies are famous for disinformation campaigns and devious plans. Why is it so easy to accept the fact that an aide to a non-president of the United States set this up by taking the word of a former spy master (Putin)?

Do you believe the story about Bush senior flying a SR-71 to Paris to prevent Iran from releasing the embassy hostages? There are allot of conspiracy theories out there.

Russian is spreading one now.

[prolesunited]

125. I don't know what I believe

I don't trust either Bush/McCain or Putin. However, I do think the ties of the McCain adviser are relevant.

[The Croquist]

272. I don't know what really happened in Georgia either and I'm sorry if I came across like I did.

The bottom line is that we can't trust anything we hear from the region. It just gets to me when I see people posting one side and not the other.

[Botany]

152. The time that bush Sr. was supposed to have been in Paris is the only

time that there were no logs for secret service agent time. The Hostages were
released with in minutes of Reagan taking office. A plane load of spare parts
for Iranian jets and missiles got shipped to Iran w/in a month of Reagan taking
office.

[Wizard777]

14. Mc Cain isn't even President yet. He's already started his first war.

He should be in jail. Not on the campaign trail.

[garybeck]

15. this belongs on the greatest page.

n/t

[1776Forever]

16. When it happened all I could think of was Cheney and Rove! Had their fingerprints on it......

If this is true then how could anyone in the right mind vote for McCain! I hope there is some real investigation by what is left of true journalists out there!

[fascisthunter]

17. And I Think So as Well...

tread slowly with the talking points regarding Georgia dems, or you will make the same mistake you did regarding Iraq. Me smells Republican foreign-fuckery again....

[Danieljay]

18. Bingo!

[JDPriestly]

19. Russia should not have acted as a peacekeeper on the border of its own country.

But that still is no excuse for creating yet another conflict out of a situation that could have been resolved through negotiation.

In other words, there is a problem on the border between Georgia and Russia. There is no denying that by either side. Georgia is a small country whose people need to feel secure within its borders.

Ossetia broke off and became a buffer zone between the big guy, Russia and the little guy, Georgia. Russia is in Ossetia as a peacekeeper -- but how can a party to rivalry or conflict, how can a party that either is or is perceived as being a threat to a third country act as a peacekeeper on the border of the third country? Russia should not be the peacekeeper, but still, Georgia should not have attacked, especially without having first asked that the issues regarding its security be addressed once again by the United Nations. There is fault on both sides. This paragraph is particularly troubling:

When told that many diplomats in the United States and Europe blame Russia for provoking the conflict and for invading Georgia, Putin said Russia had no choice but to invade Georgia after dozens of its peacekeepers in South Ossetia were killed. He told Chance it was to avert a human calamity.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/28/russia.georgia.cold.war/index.html?section=cnn_latest

Why didn't Russia go to the United Nations about the murders of its peacekeepers?

Georgia was the immediate aggressor, but Russia should have acted more responsibly also.

[Capt_Nemo]

40. I think you should get better informed

"Why didn't Russia go to the United Nations about the murders of its peacekeepers?"

Hmm, in fact they did!
In the very night of the 7th August, right after the Georgian Army entered South Ossetia
to take over the city of Tshkinvali, Russia called for an emergency meeting of the UNSC
where they introduced a resolution calling for a cease fire, and the retreat of Georgian
forces from South Ossetia.
But, guess what? The US and the UK threatened to veto (curious isn't it?) and the thing never went
to a vote. half a day later the Russians started to move into South Ossetia...

[plasticsundance]

80. Yes ... and if you notice ...

in JDPriestly's reporting it simply states Ossetia, but you stated South Ossetia. Small but important detail, because there is a North. Ossetia, and it's in Russia. I wonder how many of us would decide that it's alright to divide a nation. Ossetia was an autonomous oblast at the time of the collapse of the Soviet Union. Georgia took the status of autonomous oblast away from S. Ossetia, and that's when S. Ossetia declared independence from Georgia.

Otherwise, the battle in the Caucasus' appears to be a complicated one. The oversimplifications I read at DU on the topic really insults the perusing of history it deserves.

On another note, most Russians will support Putin, because they prefer someone like him over a drunken Yeltsin that allowed the West to exploit Russia. Once bitten, twice shy.

[The Croquist]

120. So they waited a whole 12 hours?

Wow,

I'm sorry I didn't know that they didn't rush off to war.

[Capt_Nemo]

160. So... they should have waited

until the south ossetians had been driven out of their land by the georgians...

nice call there

[The Croquist]

273. 12 hours!

How long did it take for the UN to defend Kuwait?
How long did it take for the UN to defend Kosovo?

[JDPriestly]

128. Thanks, but it is my understanding that the Russians already

were participating in the peacekeeping force in Ossetia before that happened. That is where Russia made its mistake. Russia should not have had the token peacekeeping force in Ossetia to begin with. It should have left that task to some country that is its ally. Russia should have stayed out of Ossetia. I am talking about the period before Georgia invaded Ossetia.

[Grinchie]

93. They should have invaded Grenada like Reagan instead?

Priestly, I supposed the should have protected the Russians being killed by the Georgians figthing in Iraq?

You make no sense.

Saashvili is a Bush clone. Putin knocked the Asshat down a notch by effectifely using military force to shut down the situation. We would do the same thing given the opportunity, if the US had smart, unmedicated leaders.

Now Putin is responding to the propaganda being disseminated by the Media, and is playing Chicken with Bush. Yes, it's scary, cause Bush has no mind for the consequences of his actions.

[JDPriestly]

122. No. Putin should knows very well that he is being "played" in

a negative sense. The Republicans are trying to stir up trouble so that they can shift the focus from the enormous economic problems in the U.S. to imagined or real security issues. Putin sees it, but doesn't seem to understand that he just has to lie low and wait until after the elections to decide whether to go the path of negotiation or retaliation.

Thus far he has been playing right into the hands of McCain/Bush. The emphasis here in the U.S. is shifting to security issues. Every Republican and every Democrat has to rattle the saber or look weak. American politicians who favor diplomacy over force are being taunted into a contest to see who can make the most bellicose statements. It's like a game of dare between little boys on a playground. Somebody has to rise above and get beyond that stuff. Putin is the only one who can do it today because his American counterparts are paralyzed by election fever.

Georgia is a flea on Russia's back. Russia does not need Georgia. It should just let them go for the moment and make a deal with them later. This is the time for Russia and Putin to simply bide their time. The new president will want to show how great he is by either beating up on or making up with Russia. How Putin acts now will determine which it will be: beat up or make up.

It's in Russia's interest that the next president choose to make up with rather than beat up Russia.

[IsItJustMe]

217. Believe me, we are not going to beat up on Russia. Now, or in the foreseeable future. Any fool

knows that, and any President of this country better damn well know that or we can all kiss our asses good bye.

[Grinchie]

230. Sadly, I have to agree with you regarding the bellicose talk from the Democrats

However, I believe that America will not fall for this BS again.

I remember seeing the YouTube video of Bush, Flagellating himself with the American flag on the opening day of the Beijing Olympics. You could see the frustration in him, and now that I look back, it seems a lot like another "My Pet Goat" incident. This time, Saakashvili jumped the gun and perhaps ruined the October surprise by starting it too early.

We can only hope that this a an act of God to prevent the NeoConmen from invoking the hysteria of the Russian Bear yet again.

Bush sure has been a bully for the past 8 years, it seems to me that the worlds patience is wearing thin. Too bad Nancy Pelosi doesn't see things as clearly.

[DutchLiberal]

178. People need to stop claiming Saakashvili is a pawn of Bush and the neocons...

If Clinton had been president, or Obama, Saakashvili still would be America's allie. Don't think for a moment this is purely a 'neocon' issue, because you are mistaken.

[sandyj999]

20. I have thought this all along. And we may not be done yet...n/t

[iamthebandfanman]

21. yeah, and (you cant trust putin, or his government)

how does that make their role in it any better?
they were looking for an excuse to invade, and they got it.

i hate people trying to make one fascist a-hole look morally better than the other.

all three parties involved are dipshits and they all wanted this situation to happen. nobodys got the moral ground on this issue except the poor people caught in the middle

i dunno why people all of a sudden think you can trust anything the russian government says or its state ran media say. what, just because the same controlling things are happening in our country it means everyone else MUST be honest and truthful about everything ? yeah right.

[CitizenPatriot]

22. but isn't this how you get elected?

you create FEAR and set yourself up as the only one who can save the American people and the media goes along with that bs, even though a thinking person can ask, gee, we wouldn't have BEEN in this situation without Asswipe Cowboy in the first place.

What I can't believe is the number of people who think the idea that McCain and his Georgia lobbyist friend and Rove WOULDN'T do this, DIDN't do this. That's what blows my mind.

We already KNOW this admin lied us into war, manufactured evidence, and wanted to dress american soldiers up like Iranian soldiers, have them attack "our soldiers' and therefore justify a war. These people aren't like you and me. They have no conscience.

for anyone who is still making the fatal error of projecting themselves onto the other side, stop. You have no idea how mentally ill these people are. You only hurt yourself by underestimating their capacity for greed, cruelty and manipulation at any cost.

[rebel with a cause]

71. This was done to offset Obama's trip abroad.

Did it not strike anyone strange that this crisis happened so shortly after Obama's rainbow tour, and during the week he went on vacation. It was thought out here in the states, or it was really a BIG coincidence that it was timed so well.

[CitizenPatriot]

74. no coincidence

it was their way of trying to diminish the value of diplomacy, which Obama showed the world hope of once again.

they say, Oh, but in a REAL WAR, when you might DIE, who would you want leading this country?

The answer no one in msm gives is OBAMA. so we can avoid WAR, you assholes.

I am so sick of the dumbing down of america. President Clinton (and he will always be President to me -- until Obama is on office) detailed the issues so well last night. a president can avoid war through discussions OFTEN. this should be the goal.

Not some child who needs to demonstrate his bullying power. his aggression.

and certainly not someone so desperate to win an election, they would incite war with another country to do so.

If that's what passes as patriotism, count me out.

It still amazes me how people can't GRASP the horror of the Xers (extreme republicans). They are extremists. Their goal is republican rule permanently. They will stoop to any low to achieve this. We are not PARANOID. The truth is, we are not SUSPICIOUS enough.

tinfoil hat, indeed.

[rebel with a cause]

83. Hallelujah

and amen. :thumbsup:

[treestar]

147. Exactly, and notice that suddenly things flair up in the one little

country halfway around the earth that McWar has connections with.

[DissedByBush]

203. That is exactly how Putin got elected

He had hundreds of innocent Russian civilians murdered in their sleep to do it too.

[Wilber_Stool]

23. This is the best rundown

I have found so far on the lead up to the conflict from Der Spiegel.



The Sheraton Metechi Palace Hotel in the Georgian capital Tbilisi has a sand-colored façade, dozens of floors and a bright atrium-style lobby. It is an ideal base for guests working abroad who are eager not to attract attention.

A small group of American soldiers along with US advisors in civilian clothes stand huddled around laptop computers, whispering with officers and looking at images on the screen. As soon as a visitor walks over to see what they're up to, they snap the computers shut. A man in his mid-30s, wearing a blue polo shirt, explains: "We're the worst-informed people in Tbilisi. I can't even tell you what we're doing here."

As of the end of last week, the roughly 160 American military advisors still stood their ground in Georgia. They weren't the only foreign soldiers in the country, though. Russia withdrew far more slowly than Russian President Dmitry Medvedev had promised. And Moscow has likewise announced that some 500 soldiers will remain in the country to secure a buffer zone between Georgia and South Ossetia.

It is, in short, a messy situation. But who is actually responsible for this six-day war in the southern Caucasus?

[maddezmom]

26. wow, thanks for posting that...I hadn't seen it

[InkAddict]

24. The US Chamber of Commerce for....

http://www.usacc.org/content.php?type=page&id=2&chi=5&par=3

Naw, these folks????

[ExPatLeftist]

25. It really sucks that he did not name McCain

Because with it left open, obviously the RW media will try their damndest to spin it to at least imply that it is Obama. And the idiots that watch and believe the likes of Faux News will eat it up with a spoon despite the fact that it is obvious to whom Putin was referring. Mark my words, Faux and their ilk will be running all kinds of border texts with related slanderous statements against Obama - but with question marks after them to immunize from lawsuits.... "How does the war in Georgia help Obama?" "What does Putin have on Obama?" "OBAMA STARTS WORLD WAR III!!!......?"

Come on, Vladi - get specific. As it is, this will be spun beyond recognition.

[rucky]

57. If it could be spun either way, then it wasn't a very good plan in the first place.

Why would they go through so much orchestration if it's unclear who it would help?

[ExPatLeftist]

70. It seems to me obvious who it would help

...but that won't stop the soulless RW machine from spinning anyway, convincing some rubes along the way.

[CJCRANE]

96. The war helped McCain, that's not in doubt.

The accusation/revelation that it was a "wag the dog" for McCain can only hurt McCain.
But if McCain isn't named then the pundits can spin the accusation any way they want.

[Grinchie]

97. Yeah right...

I'm sure they will claim that Obama sent Rove to the Black Sea for vacation, and that Obama talkied McCain into hiring that lobbyist working for Saakashvili. It was also Obama that authorized the 1000 or so American Special forces "Advisors" to help out with Democracy.

Then they'll link the 1967 U.S.S. Liberty coverup to Obama, which led to the U.S.S. Forrestal accident in 1967, leaving poor John McCain and his father to clean things up.

Yeah, right...

[DutchLiberal]

179. Why couldn't it be Obama? Remember Brezinski is one of is closest advisers...

The Cold War veteran who would love to revive the 'good old days'.

[Mudoria]

27. The KGB man speaks!

he should stick to what he does best: murdering Chechens.:puke:

[Dover]

59. What do you really know about Chechnya and Russia?

For instance, I'm curious if you have done any homework on the pipelines (both current and proposed) in that country. It's ties to Afghanistan and Georgia and the Caspian sea, etc.?

In fact what do you (or most Americans) know about the reasons behind our presence in the Caucasus?

If the answer is 'very little' then you might begin by googling Chechnya/pipelines and see where that takes ya.

[Mudoria]

64. I'm quite familiar with the pipelines and the presence of many

other natural resources in the Caucasus. But what has that to do with the Russian suppression of Chechnya's right to govern themselves? Other than the fact that they want control of the resources and possible pipeline routes. Or are you trying to misdirect attention away from Russian genocide in Chechnya? If Pooty Poo is concerned with the rights of South Ossetia shouldn't he be willing and eager to accord the same rights to Chechnya?

[Dover]

91. No, really I'm pointing out that pipelines/regional control, rather than alleged humanitarian and

other reasons given for not only Russia's but our own 'invasions' (Serbia/Kosovo and Iraq come immediately to mind) are what it's all about, and citizens be damned (collateral damage). So I'm not seeing any real distinctions between our oppressive tactics and theirs. It's abhorrent no matter which country it is. And all seem to cloak their atrocities in the flag or altruism. And so let us not be fooled but rather bring awareness to our true intentions and foreign policy decisions that we fund through our taxes and labors and blood.

Oh, and the U.S. funded the rebellion in Chechnya in large part.

[plasticsundance]

121. Perhaps, this should give you pause ...

American Committee for Peace in Chechnya

Members:

Elliott Abrams, member
Ken Adelman, member
Richard V. Allen, member
Eliot Cohen, member
Midge Decter, member
Thomas R. Donahue, member
Frank Gaffney, member
Bruce Jackson, member
Robert Kagan, member
Max Kampelman, co-chair emeritus
William Kristol, member
Michael Ledeen, member
Joshua Muravchik, member
Richard Perle, member
Richard Pipes, member
Norman Podhoretz, member
Gary Schmitt, member
William Schneider, member
George Weigel, member
James Woolsey, member

[Grinchie]

233. There's that Asshat William Kristol again...

Such a peace loving NeoConman. Looking out for the Chechnians

[sattahipdeep]

258. Victoria Nuland

"This was the use of sophisticated weapons against a small town, against a sleeping people. This was a barbaric assault," said Gorbachev, the last president of the former Soviet Union."


Robert Kagan was recently cited by presidential hopeful Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) as being one of several conservatives whom the senator calls up for guidance and advice on foreign policy.


According to a BBC profile of him, "Kagan disputes that the United States' attitude was altered by the events of September 11. He says that the country 'only became more itself' in its intolerance for the enemy ... Critics accuse him of over-simplifying the argument, overlooking the influences of economic and cultural strength as well as military, and also a certain brutalism in his acceptance that 'American power, even deployed under a double standard, may be the best means of advancing progress'" (BBC News, April 17, 2003).


Kagan is married to Victoria Nuland, the U.S. representative to NATO. She served as Vice President Dick Cheney's deputy national security adviser from 2003 to 2005.

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1241.html

[DissedByBush]

204. And Russians too!

Don't forget all the Russians he's had murdered.

[bikebloke]

28. Bringing more war profiteers into the big tent.

Those profiteers who pigged out at the public trough during the Cold War haven't been raking in as much of our cash with a couple cake-walk ground occupations. Wasn't Rummy was involved with some high tech missile outfit? The economy floats or sinks on yacht and castle sales, you know.

[Boxerfan]

29. Not to worry-The JUSTICE department will get right on this & investigate!

How they can cover this up.............



THANKS George for appointing Monica Goodling to staffing!


Gadz we gotta lotta work to do...You just know they'll stir this even further after the debates. When McCain is swimming in his own gravy....WWIII should not be an election plan.

[liberalcanuck]

30. This could explain why McSame responded so quickly - he knew in advance

on edit: Just like the "Faith" forum - McSame had a cheat sheet.

[AlphaCentauri]

38. vice president visit to Georgia was schedule before the conflict

[Overseas]

51. Just because he had a paid lobbyist for Georgia on his campaign staff? //nt

[Hardrada]

90. Good point!

[LiberalLovinLug]

32. Gorbachev agrees!

In a buried interview with CNN earlier Gorbachev was trying to get the message out.

Here's a link to the CNN page:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/14/gorbachev/

"Gorbachev told CNN's Larry King that Russia moved additional forces into South Ossetia in response to "devastation" in the South Ossetia city of Tskhinvali.

"This was the use of sophisticated weapons against a small town, against a sleeping people. This was a barbaric assault," said Gorbachev, the last president of the former Soviet Union."

Putin is no FDR but he didn't have much choice but to go in and defend the pro-Russian sectors that were being attacked by Georgian troops. I am sure that they (Georgians) would not make such a bold move without Washingtons either approval or downright orders.

It plays into McCains so-called strength which is foreign relations and security. McCain makes some bold statements, W sends in battle ships into the area to provoke, which they have done, and to top it all off John sends his wife to Georgia to wipe the tears of the poor Russian oppressed people of Georgia.

It's an attempt to frame Obama as not ready for tough war decisions, and to stoke cold war fears in an attempt to get the voting population to forget domestic issues and run trembling to the Republican party.

[Mugsy]

33. Gorby said the same thing last week.

Mikhail Gorbachev wrote in an Op/Ed a week ago Sunday:

Mounting a military assault against innocents was a reckless decision whose tragic consequences, for thousands of people of different nationalities, are now clear. The Georgian leadership could do this only with the perceived support and encouragement of a much more powerful force. Georgian armed forces were trained by hundreds of U.S. instructors, and its sophisticated military equipment was bought in a number of countries. This, coupled with the promise of NATO membership, emboldened Georgian leaders into thinking that they could get away with a “blitzkrieg” in South Ossetia.

http://www.theday.com/re.aspx?re=fc0577e9-469a-4106-9b70-78187144096b

[Joe Chi Minh]

139. Now, now, you two! Don't upset Croquist.

[Satyagrahi]

34. Meet the key players + some interesting links

I don't like Putin, but there is mounting evidence that he could be telling the truth (at least this time).

These seem to be the key players in this neocon cabal:

Matthew Bryza (Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs) and Randy Scheunemann (John McCain's top foreign policy adviser):

U.S. envoy with links to Scheunemann informed in advance about Georgian invasion plans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3813319

Brigadier General (Res.) Gal Hirsch:

Proof that the war in Georgia was a neocon project? Former IDF soldier admits training Georgian forces for war in Ossetia
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3807738

What Really Happened in Georgia/Ossetia
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3827274

Western intelligence sources: First draft of Saakashvili's invasion plans prepared in 2006 (!)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3454892#3456409

- Joseph R. Wood (Cheney's deputy assistant for national security affairs):

Why was Cheney's guy in Georgia before the war?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=102&topic_id=3457882&mesg_id=3457882

Daniel Fried (Assistant Secretary for European and Eurasian Affairs):

"Within the Bush administration, “the fight between the hawks and the doves” erupted anew, said one administration official. In this case, the people he called the “hawks” —Mr. Cheney and the assistant secretary of state for Europe, Daniel Fried — argued for more American military aid for Georgia; the “doves” — Ms. Rice, Mr. Hadley, Mr. Burns — urged restraint."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/18/washington/18diplo.html?pagewanted=print

Vice President Dick Cheney:

"As with many foreign policy issues, this one highlighted a continuing fight within the administration. Vice President Dick Cheney and his aides and allies, who saw Georgia as a role model for their democracy promotion campaign, pushed to sell Georgia more arms, including Stinger antiaircraft missiles, so that it could defend itself against possible Russian aggression."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/18/washington/18diplo.html?pagewanted=print

"The Georgia debacle started on May 4, 2006, with a longer and more considered statement, by Vice President Cheney, in Vilnius, Lithuania. Cheney there threatened Russia with a new Cold War if Russia did not capitulate to American demands of cheap oil for Russia's pro-American neighbors."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-bromwich/georgia-and-the-push-for_b_120478.html

And, last but not least, John McCain:

"It was February 2006 in Munich, and John McCain's eyes were flashing with the mischievous spark that comes when he's about to fire a verbal rocket. "I've got a zinger coming," he told me, referring to a speech on Russia he would give a few hours later at the annual Munich Conference on Security Policy.

And McCain did indeed deliver a zinger. He blasted Vladimir Putin for "the pursuit of autocracy at home and abroad" -- and then urged that Russia be excluded from the G-8 summit of industrialized nations. For good measure, he included a call for Georgia, already a thorn in Russia's side, to join NATO.
...

Now that Russia has invaded Georgia, McCain can point to that speech and argue, "I told you so." ..."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/19/AR2008081902257.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

[AlphaCentauri]

35. CNN did try to make a mess out of that interview

the writer jumps from one subject to another making the article look like a whole makeup thing

[nickgutierrez]

42. Be careful - Putin deserves no more credibility than Bush/McCain.

Russia did not have to launch a military strike in Georgia, and they certainly didn't have to respond by bombing civilians and oil pipelines. Putin is looking out for himself, above all else.

[AlphaCentauri]

44. There was no damage or bombing to pipe lines, civilian casualties were less than in Ossetia

[nickgutierrez]

45. One civilian casualty is too many, on any side.

Nobody's right here, except the people of South Ossetia. They should be allowed to determine their own futures, without interference from Georgia, the U.S., or Russia.

[AlphaCentauri]

56. Too many? there are more that 133 ossetians death plus Russian soldiers

how can we expect Ossetia take a change to become independent with Georgia trowing missiles at them.

[The Croquist]

126. What happened?

There used to be 2,000 dead?

I know Russia didn't lie. Their word is gold...

[Grinchie]

234. How many Iraqi's are Dead Croquist?

You are such a hypocrite. It's OK when your Father does it (Bush) because you have to love your Father, but when someone elses Father (Putin) deals with it it you howl in protest.

Our Government doesn't even bother to count how many are killed in Iraq, so shut up about the perceived "Lies". Do us a favor and go count them yourself, or perhaps you can write a letter to Bush and ask all those high payed military advisors living in Georgia to do a "Real" body count for you.

And makes sure the TPS report has a cover sheet!

[WildEyedLiberal]

251. Wow, did Croquist actually SAY it was "OK" for the US to invade Iraq and kill civilians?

No, he didn't, and you're a fucking liar who can't accept that human rights violations can and are being committed by countries that aren't somehow secretly controlled by Bush. In your black and white little world, the only people who commit atrocities are the Americans and the fact that the US is engaged in an illegal war in Iraq somehow means that NO other illegal wars are being waged by any other country, and that no innocent civilians are being killed by anyone other than US forces or US allies.

[AlphaCentauri]

277. Let's scrape the BS out of this

human rights violations are a good shield to justified what?

Georgia lunched missiles into South Ossetia killing Georgians and Russians citizens, for the self appointed human rights violation watchers that did not happened. Don't try to make enemies where they don't exist. Without the president of Georgia actions there should not be russian troops in that country.

Remember when Saddam gassed the Kurds we did not intervene, when Pinochet killed the thousands of liberals we did not intervene, when China roll the tanks over the protesters we did not intervene.
We just intervene when there is an economic stimulus.

Now

are the russians bombing civilian places?
are they torturing prisoner?
are they sending more troops to combat the insurgents?
are they giving contracts to their oil companies in Georgian soil?
have they claim mission accomplish?

Spinning and twisting of the truth is a fecal disease of the XXI century.

[The Croquist]

274. Are you saying that because we invaded Iraq Russia should be allowed to invade Georgia?

Where have I defended invading Iraq?

[Throd]

65. No, he opposes Bush, so he is automatically a swell guy!

[Turbineguy]

46. I'm pretty sure this was a Russian Operation

The Bush Administration as well as Saakashvili stepped into it. If Saakashvili gets tossed out, I expect we'll find out what really happened, whether Condi told him not to attack or what transpired between him and McCain and his little buddy Scheunemann.

If the Administarion were not involved they would not have waited 2 weeks to tell the world Saakashvili was acting against US advice.

It has all the hallmarks of a Russian job combined with the usual incompetence of the Bush Administration. Russia was prepared and the Bush Admin thought they could put McCain on the Yellow Brick Road. Putin patiently prepared and Bush was up against a time table.

So now the question becomes: How does Putin benefit by Obama becoming President?

[Lugnut]

48. Pootie is a smart man

He obviously knows quite well how the current administration operates.

[Kermitt Gribble]

49. "He also announced

economic measures which he said were unrelated to the fighting with Georgia. Nineteen U.S. poultry meat companies would be banned from exporting their products to Russia because they had failed health and safety tests, and 29 other companies had been warned to improve their standards or face the same ban, Putin said."

How many other countries have banned food from our country? More than a few, I think, yet our govt doesn't care if we eat this crap as long as the corps are making a profit.

As far as the Russia-Georgia conflict, I was disappointed in Biden's speech on this issue last night.

[bertman]

82. Toonces27, thanks for mentioning Biden's Georgia comments. Did anyone else notice how he got very

little audience support when he said that?

This is what I don't like about our candidates. They are Imperial Senators who think we own the world and are entitled to whup everybody's ass to keep them in line. I keep remembering Obama's harsh Iran rhetoric during the primaries and how we need to BUILD UP AMERICA'S MILITARY, and now Biden is Mr. Anti-Russian. They're all part of the problem. It's so fucking discouraging that we cannot overcome this corporate U.S. Empire agenda.

I take solace in Obama and Biden's social stances, but the foreign policy belligerence is such a bummer.

[Hardrada]

92. There was a panel of elite advisor types (some DC group)

and they were repeating the same talking points Biden was using re: Georgia and Russia. No, no support for that I hope from rank and file Dems.

[Grinchie]

100. That's because they are surrounded by DLC Asshats.

The DLC is very NeoCon oriented, as well as being very cozy with Corporate interests. Just look at the heavy handed Corporate, invitation only parties in Denver during the Convention. It shows that most of the Democrats in Congress are nothing more than Corporate shills.


Now Obama is surrounding himslef with these war mongers and it's very disappointing. I just hope that he is able to control these idiots. If something happened to Obama and Biden got in, I would shudder to think what America would become.

[plasticsundance]

131. On a Senate committee 2002 hearing relating to the invasion of Iraq

Biden sat next to Lugar, and they were pretty much on the same page. I remember Biden stating something to the effect that perhaps we could get Russia to join in the invasion of Iraq because then Russia could get back the 11 billion dollars Saddam owed Russia.

When Biden spoke at the Democratic Convention yesterday, and he began all the hawkish talk about the Georgia-Russian conflict over Ossetia, MSNBC panned to a woman's face that had the absolute look of horror on her face.

[DutchLiberal]

183. Criminal and murderous regimes like Teheran and Moscow need tough language...

They are not going to play nice, so neither should the US.

(And I supported Kucinich and his 'Department of Peace'!)

[bertman]

225. Criminal and murderous regimes like the one currently in Washington is more like it.

The Russians are bad actors for sure, but we, the U.S. are surrounding them with U.S. surrogate nations who we are urging to accept our Missile Defense Shield, also known as land-based missiles that you can load with pretty much whatever warhead you want. And this is not for defensive purposes, other than to defend us from anyone who might take umbrage at being surrounded by a hostile nation that has designs on controlling the planet.

It's all about the Empire and controlling the world. And we, actually I should say they because I don't consider myself part of it even though I'm a citizen of the U.S., SO and they are doing that one chunk at the time.

I'm sick and tired of the bad-ass motherfuckers trying to rule the planet on our dollar. If Biden and Obama are part of that mindset we're in deeper shit than any of us can imagine.

Furthermore, this threat and counterthreat game could very easily get out of hand and start a nuclear exchange. Let's tone down the rhetoric and talk for a change.

Besides, we have no allies who want to send troops anywhere anymore, and we don't have the capability, so that leaves Air and Naval, and that could very quickly lead to nuclear.

[DutchLiberal]

278. Your mistake is, you hate the Bush administration SO much, you think their adversaries are 'good'...

Although everything you said is right, the fact that the Bush administration is wrong, doesn't make Iran or Russia right. If you deny their regimes are downright miserable and murderous, just because they oppose Bush, you don't have your facts together.

[reorg]

287. again with the "why do you hate Boosh so much" meme

You don't seem to realize that when you ask for Daddy to get tough with the bad guys, your Daddy better be not in ill repute or he will get busted for molesting other people's children.

The US has simply lost the moral ground to intervene anywhere, with words or with weapons, on the basis of human rights and violation of international treaties. Period. Deal with it! Press the next US president to come clean. Then, maybe, people will listen.

[DutchLiberal]

288. You don't realize the 'evilness' of Iran or Russia doesn't get determined by how the US is behaving

Deal with that.

[reorg]

289. Oh yes, it does n/t

[DutchLiberal]

290. I give up, you're batshit.

[AntiFascist]

283. This is an important point...

you can't preach change when your foreign policy supports the status quo. All of our domestic financial problems are ultimately tied to our foreign policy decisions, no matter how much they try to cover up this 'inconvenient truth'. The oil pipeline going through Georgia and control of the port city must be very important to our Imperial Senate.

[Grinchie]

99. The food we eat is poison, and the USDA, FDA and EPA knows it.

Everything that Putin said in the article is a proven fact regarding poutlry Arsenic and Antibiotics.

In fact, the Russians in recent months have done their own homework in regards to GMO and they are moving to ban them from the Food supply.

Yet in the U.S., we can't even get mandatory labeling of GMO foodstuff through our Corporate run goverment.

Got a tummy ache? Take these pills. That didn't work?! Try this other pill? Liver destroyed?, Take this liver transplant. Kidneys failed? Your scheduled for Dialysis twice a week for the rest of your life.

The jig is up for the GMO foods companies like Monsanto, so now they will salvage their market by grow the "Now to be found not fit for human or animal consumption" grains and divert them into Ethanol.

The DLC is not going to like that Poultry ban one bit.

[Broadslidin]

50. Tis only the beginning of the Twenty First Century blood flowing wars for control of crude oil

And looking upon history going back to the
U.S. military mass slaughter of Philippine Citizens
back in 1899,
(well documented by Samuel Clemmons)

nothing has changed in those little human gray cells.

[Javaman]

52. well, no duh!

obvious man save me.

well, I guess it is good that former KGB head is pointing out that the US orchestrated this whole mess.

the question now is: how will the rightwing media spin this to make him look like he's crazy?

[rebel with a cause]

81. Bush will look into his eyes and see

his soul is not as good as he thought it was. ;)

[Javaman]

102. man, I wish I had a pair of those x-ray spec eyeballs. LOL nt

[Junkdrawer]

55. I'm sure Putin has a file labeled "9/11/2001"....

Wouldn't it be interesting if he shared the contents of that file at the UN...

[madrchsod]

58. i bet putin is waiting for obama to be elected....

the russian oligarchy want stability not a lose cannon like johnnie boy

[katty]

60. putin knows the bush&cheney ops by now-he's waiting for

some fresh air: Obama

[AZ Criminal JD]

72. A fascist dictator is waiting for Obama as "fresh air"

How bizarre.

[Grinchie]

103. The Russian economy is booming, the people are happy

You call that Fascist?

[AZ Criminal JD]

127. With the exception of the Jews the Germans were happy too under Hitler.

People who express a view different than Putin's can expect to be imprisoned or worse.

[SOS]

187. Millions of Germans were not happy, they were terrorized.

Here are the election results for the last Weimar election for Chancellor in 1932:

Paul von Hindenburg 53%
Adolf Hitler 36.8%
Ernst Thälmann 10.2% (Communist Party)

The first victims of Nazi genocide were the political opposition (SPD and KPD).
Remember that the Nazis killed a total of nearly 13 million in their death camps, of which 6 million were Jews.
The NY Holocaust Museum points this out very clearly.

After the seizure of power in January 1933, all political opponents lived in a state of terror, not happiness.
Even a joke about Hitler could bring the SA goons to your door, with horrific results.

So while millions of Germans did support Hitler and the Nazis, let's not forget the millions who were murdered, terrorized and silenced for their opposition views.

[DutchLiberal]

184. Rigging elections, murdering critical journalists, engage in ethnic cleansing...

Yep, sounds fascist to me.

If you think Russia is a great democracy with swell leaders, you have mental issues.

[katty]

143. bush/putin 2 fascists heating up the cold war again - let's give

Obama a shot at another, saner way to engage with putin the fascist.

[TomInTib]

63. The deal is, most Americans don't give a damn about Georgia.

In the mind of Joe Dumbass American, St Ronnie made the Soviet Union go away never to come back again.

Besides, College Fuhball starts this weekend and all will be OK.

[jwirr]

66. He is no doubt right. As to the food items - they should be growing

their own food anyhow - it is a crucial issue of national security.

[tjwash]

67. Well...the US supported Georgia, like they supported the Kurds.

Gave them a promise of support, and a false sense of security, then, when the chips came down and all hell broke loose-they just stood by and watched the massacre.

[OwnedByFerrets]

73. As much as I cant stand Putin or what he stands for.....

I believe him over the president of Amerika who has done nothing but lie to us from day one.

[petepillow]

75. oh snap! n/t

[GreenTea]

76. With the diabolical Bush administration in office who doesn't believe it for one second.

They want another cold war....it's so profitable for war profiteers (and there are thousands of corporations) and military people (we hand over hundred's of billions of dollars to spend) and these same republican scum believe they can hold power by creating more fear....

So who would not believe Bushco is behind the whole instigating of it all?

Here's even more proof....Warmongering imperialist BushCo hates treaties...especially ones affecting their power and an easy way to create friction with another power....check it out (link) and tell me you don't believe BushCo is behind all this bullshit as usual...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3458163

[Grinchie]

104. Correction, We have Billions of Dollars to Print.

Or Borrow..

[CitizenPatriot]

77. it's obvious who it helped

look at the news articles. On Digg, when I tried to post this (it wouldn't post), it said here are 6 possible duplicates. The duplicates were all articles about how McCain gained in the polls since the Georgia issue.

There is no way this would have helped Obama ... who isn't running on his "ability to keep america safe". that's McSame.

and it did help mcsame.

McSame and his Lobbyist friend S, who took 800k from Georgia and had an IOU to pay out.

and we know a contigency of Xers were over there right before the "aggression".

motive, means, opportunity and now an accusation from Russia.

[maddezmom]

78. The Guardian: Putin claims Georgian crisis is US ploy ...more detailed version

The Russian prime minister, Vladimir Putin, claimed today the Caucasus crisis was started by the Americans as an election campaign ploy.

As Russia found itself increasingly isolated internationally because of its invasion of Georgia and its decision to recognise two breakaway regions of Georgia as independent states, Putin suggested the Georgia war had been cooked up in Washington to create a neo-cold war climate that and wreck the prospects of Barack Obama.

~snip~

Sanctions
In an interview with CNN, Putin amplified conspiracy theories that have been aired in the Russian media and by Russian pundits since the crisis erupted three weeks ago - that the Georgian war was fabricated by the US vice-president, Dick Cheney, and the Republican presidential contender, John McCain, to create an international crisis and fan anti-Russian hostility that would undermine Obama's chances of getting to the Oval Office.

"The suspicion arises that someone in the United States especially created this conflict to make the situation more tense and create a competitive advantage for one of the candidates fighting for the post of US president," said Putin, who is seen as the main force behind Russia's hammering of Georgia.


more:http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/28/georgia.russia2

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CJCRANE]

98. Bush-Cheney-McCain are the masters at "catapulting the propaganda"

these days.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Grinchie]

105. Thats right, dismiss it, because Cheney is way too honorable

And so is Rove for that matter!

Wake Up America!

[Truth2Tell]

79. I see the usual DU cold-warrior brigade

is out in force today.

Pooooty Pooot pooot poot. That'll teach those durn Ruuuskies!!!

[Marblehead]

84. they want WIII

what until poland heats up....

[Grinchie]

86. History will look upon George Bush as an Imbecilie

Enabled by a weak and innefective Congress that rubber stamped his story time and again.

The fact that the MSM continues to shout out "The Russians Did It", should scare the hell out of all of us.

If someone doesn't rein in the Commander in Chimp soon, as well as expose the Corporate Blue Dogs that also echo the war like rhetoric, a lot of people will be adversely affected -- as in WWIII.

[rurallib]

88. All this also adds to oil instability which will cause prices to rise again

Take that, Exxon!

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Turner Ashby]

106. It seems hard to believe that Putin wanted this

when he has been warning the West, especially the United States about this possibility for a very long time. The "new Hitler" is not acting like the old Hitler who certainly didn't give a lot of warning about military actions before he did them. Putin REPEATEDLY warned that this would happen, but the totally clueless Secretary of State who HAD JUST VISITED GEORGIA apparently couldn't get that point across to the Georgian President. So, it seems a bit disingenous to now say that Putin is lying about what he warned about for approximately the last year. What is he lying about? His own warnings?

[shaniqua6392]

107. The whole thing stunk from the beginning.

I figured it was Bush, Cheney and Condi Rice who had played a part.

[KamaAina]

109. 527 ad in the making?

"If you get involved in a major ground war in the Saudi desert, I think support will erode significantly," said Senator X. "Nor should it be supported. We cannot even contemplate, in my view, trading American blood for Iraqi blood."

Senator X is, of course,

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

John McCain.

[D23MIURG23]

110. Hmm, wonder which scumbag dictator I should trust in this situation?

Theirs or ours?

To be fair the situation sounds plausible, but Putin's voice doesn't add any credibility in my view.

[SergeyDovlatov]

111. Full interview in russian and english (google auto translate)

in Russian: http://www.government.ru/content/governmentactivity/mainnews/archive/2008/08/28/582087.htm

google auto-translate:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.government.ru%2Fcontent%2Fgovernmentactivity%2Fmainnews%2Farchive%2F2008%2F08%2F28%2F582087.htm&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=ru&tl=en

translation of the interesting bit.

Putin: We have indications that there were American citizens directly in the combat zone. If that information is confirmed it is very bad.

It may indicate that these events have certain domestic political dimensions.

If my guesses are confirmed, then it raises suspicions that someone in the United States specially created this conflict in order to exacerbate the situation and create an advantage in competition for one of the candidates in the fight for the post of President of the United States. And if so, this is nothing as the use of so-called administrative resources in the internal political struggle, in the worst bloody dimension.

M. CHANS: But there is a serious allegation. I want to clarify, you believe that any person in the United States, actually provoked this conflict to any of the presidential candidates received a winning position in terms of the debate, points earned.

V. PUTIN: I will now explain.

M. CHANS: And if you really express such an assumption, what you have proof?

V. PUTIN: I told you that if confirmed the presence of American citizens in the combat zone, which means only one thing - that they could stay there only by explicit direction of its leadership. And if so, then in the combat zone are American citizens, performing their official duty. They can do so only on the orders of his superiors, not on their own initiative.

Simple specialists, even if they teach military affairs, should do so not in the combat zone, and the training areas, in training centres.

Again, this requires additional confirmation yet. I tell you this with the words of our military. Of course, I have yet seek additional material.

Why are you surprised by my suggestion, I do not understand? Problems in the Middle East, reconciliation not achieved. Afghanistan does not become better. Moreover, the Taliban moved in the autumn offensive, killing dozens of NATO soldiers.

In Iraq, after the euphoria of early victories, there are many problems, and the number of victims has reached over 4 thousand.

The economy problems, we know that well. Financial problems. Mortgage crisis. We are very concerned for this and want it ended quickly, but it is.

So a small victorious war is needed. And if you do not succeed, it is possible to shift the blame on us, make us an image of the enemy and against the backdrop of such a "hurrah-patriotism" again unite the country around certain political forces.

I am surprised that you are surprised what I say. This lies on the surface.

[maddezmom]

114. Reuters has picked up on the interview as well

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LS144331.htm

[Grinchie]

236. Thank you for posting this.

It would be nice to see BushCo squirm under the thumb of ole Vlad the Impaler during the remainder of his term. Especially since Nancy Pelosi is so spineless.

Bush needs a good dressing down, and I don't give a damn about the proud anti commie crowd that thinks it would be too terrible to watch Bush get the smackdown he's been asking for.

[McCamy Taylor]

116. When W. looked in Putin's soul, I wonder if he saw this coming? The truth hurts.

Here is why I think that Putin is telling the truth. If the U.S. and Russia went back to a more or less Cold War relationship, Putin could become dictator for life in Russia as the strongest and smartest man there---the one who can protect the country. A McCain presidency is all it would take to give Putin unlimited power.

The fact that he is telling it like it is suggests that he does not want to seize this chance to make himself dictator for life at the expense of political freedom in his country---i.e. he is not interested in playing the fear card at home the way that Bush-Cheney have played it here. He would rather see the games stop.

Maybe he did not like seeing a bunch of people get killed for NeoCon oil greed.

Maybe he has a soul and that was why W. could look at it.

[mojowork_n]

174. Some historical context, from 2004

This was written by "Gary Brecher" (a pseudonym), an American who's been writing for an English-language periodical in Moscow, for quite a few years now.

http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=7426&IBLOCK_ID=35&PAGE=1

I happen to think he's the most entertaining military historian writing in any language, from anywhere. (His columns on Victor Davis Hansen are not to be missed.)

The one thing he omits from this history is that Stalin, in 1913 -- before he'd elbowed his way into power, but following his bank-robbing and divinity-school careers -- made a name for himself among the Bolsheviks as the chief ideologue on The National Minorities Question.

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1913/03.htm

What is to be done with the Ossetians, of whom the Transcaucasian Ossetians are becoming assimilated (but are as yet by no means wholly assimilated) by the Georgians, while the Cis-Caucasian Ossetians are partly being assimilated by the Russians and partly continuing to develop and are creating their own literature? How are they to be "organized" into a single national union?...

...The national question in the Caucasus can be solved only by drawing the belated nations and nationalities into the common stream of a higher culture. It is the only progressive solution and the only solution acceptable to Social-Democracy. Regional autonomy in the Caucasus is acceptable because it would draw the belated nations into the common cultural development; it would help them to cast off the shell of small nation insularity; it would impel them forward and facilitate access to the benefits of higher culture.

Sound like B.S. to you? The Bolshevik strategy was to re-draw maps, everywhere possible, to make the "ethnic Russian" parts smaller. (The same thing Tom DeLay did in Texas, gerrymandering the "blue" congressional districts, or the colonial powers did in Africa, to divide and rule.) Only in that part of Eurasia, the English words "nations" and "nationalities/people" don't completely correspond to how people over there understand those words. It makes it harder to get a grasp of what Stalin was talking about, when he defined his answer to the question:

The only correct solution is regional autonomy, autonomy for such crystallized units as Poland, Lithuania, the Ukraine, the Caucasus, etc.

The advantage of regional autonomy consists, first of all, in the fact that it does not deal with a fiction bereft of territory, but with a definite population inhabiting a definite territory. Next, it does not divide people according to nations, it does not strengthen national barriers; on the contrary, it breaks down these barriers and unites the population in such a manner as to open the way for division of a different kind, division according to classes. Finally; it makes it possible to utilize the natural wealth of the region and to develop its productive forces in the best possible way without awaiting the decisions of a common centre – functions which are not inherent features of cultural-national autonomy...

The same sort of process was carried out in the former Yugoslavia, right after WWII, to make the parts of the map controlled by the Serbs (the counter-revolutionary, nationalist opposition, as the most numerous ethnic group) as small as possible.

You could call that theory of government administration the opposite of Wilson's "principle of self-determination." It's all about 'utilizing the natural wealth of the region' and controlling 'its productive forces.' Which is why the U.S. has been so keen on maintaining the integrity of all those communist-drawn borders, cozying up to nut-job oligarchs in the 'stans, and the tie-chewing Saakashvili:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBh9D2WIGsE&feature=related

Other than that, Gary Brecher does a really nice job of going waaaay, way back into history, to lighten the burden of those troubling definitions -- "nation", natsiya, нация; and "people", narod, народ.

His editor, Mark Ames, did a fairly reasonable analysis, more recently, for The Nation, when the shooting war first broke out:

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/08/09/10898/

[Dukkha]

117. In Soviet Union, Putin accuses you!

n/t

[Politicalboi]

119. No, this is the 21st Century

We don't start wars. :sarcasm:

[paulkienitz]

124. Wes Clark says Putin has been working for years to set up this war

and given what a tool Putin is, I'm inclined to believe him.

[SergeyDovlatov]

130. plans were made

Russia and Georgia were getting ready for war.
Georgia hoped to do a blitzcrieg and capture South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Russia hoped to be able to prevent any such operation if Georgia tried.

Georgia either thought that Russia is bluffing when it said it will defend S.Ossetia, or was hoping for more support from US / NATO.

Georgia is likely misinterpreted signs from the US and understood them as a permission to launch the invasion. I've heard Saddam also misunderstood that it is OK for him to invade Kuwait.

[bjobotts]

148. May have been what Putin wanted but still, McCain willing to start a war to win an election

[treestar]

149. Maybe, but it seems they've picked the republic McWar

has connections with to flair up at this particular time. And the Georgians are willing to fight over the place, too, and it's their connections with McSame that give them the nerve right now.

[Joe Chi Minh]

134. Just been watching a very timely cable documentary on the Battle of Stalingrad....

[Grinchie]

237. That should be a lesson to people thinking of War with Russia

With the amount of suffering the Russians endured in WWII under the attack of Hitler, I seriously doubt that any war with them would be worth the costs.

[Joe Chi Minh]

276. It would be insanity, and fortunately no-one is in any doubt about it -

for all the bluster about sanctions and so on.

[BrklynLiberal]

150. BushCo certainly did not do much to try to avoid this confrontation at this particular time.

This conclusion is not hard to come to....no matter what your feelings about Putin may be.

[wiseoldman]

153. Who is Michael Lee White, born in 1967, Texas

Michael Lee White - anyone find out who he is yet?

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LS144331.htm

Referring to Russian suspicions that U.S. citizens were actually present on the battlefield on the side of Georgian forces -- accused by Moscow of committing "genocide" during the conflict -- Putin said ...............

At a news briefing in Moscow, Russia's deputy chief of the General Staff, Col. General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, said Moscow's forces had retrieved from a battlefield in Georgia a U.S. national's passport.

He showed an enlarged, colour photocopy of the document which was in the name of a Michael Lee White, born in 1967. The passport, issued in the Texas city of Houston, bore a current visa from Kazakhstan. U.S. citizens do not require a visa for Georgia.

[DutchLiberal]

155. Anybody who thinks this murderous scumbag is right, needs to get his head examined...

Putin can't be trusted. Not in the past, not now, never. He has proven to be a liar, a cheater and a warmonger.

[Grinchie]

238. So has Bush -- You trust him?

[WildEyedLiberal]

249. Is it a zero sum game now? Distrusting Putin = trusting Bush?

The idiotic simplistic black and white thinking of so many DUers never fails to astonish me. That's some real imbecile logic you've got going on here: "If Bush = bad, then Not Bush = good." I'm sure you could write a theorem with that formula and call it the Kneejerk Fallacy. God damn.

[DutchLiberal]

280. At what point has world politics turned into a football match, in which you root for one out of two?

[Botany]

156. Well Rove was in the Crimea in July and one of Cheney's men was in

.... Georgia prior to the war.

[L0oniX]

157. OMG just stop the war mongering please ya bunch of unthinking meat headed bastards

[One_Life_To_Give]

159. Bush tricked the KGB into putting Provacaturs into Ossetia?

Be real. Putin has just been handed some diplomatic defeats from the G7 and some of the former Soviet Countries. He's looking to deflect the blame same as Georgie has done before.

The enemy of my enemy is in this case nobody to be trusted.

[Turner Ashby]

162. Putin is a war monger?

The guy who joined with France and Germany to try to stop us from going into Iraq? That guy? The guy whose Armed Services suggested a quick in and out/grab and go of OBL AND offered Soviet special forces trained in Afghan warfare? That guy?

Putin may be a lot of things, but war monger is not high on my list.

[One_Life_To_Give]

163. Putin is trying to bring back the USSR

He needed an excuse to bring the breakaway provinces back into the fold. And he guessed right that the US would not send in ground forces to kick is butt out of Ossetia. Even Shrubs not that stupid (I hope). The man will do whatever it takes to build up Soviet/Russian influence and if he can tear down US influence in his backyard while in the process, so much the better.

[DutchLiberal]

185. Then check out Chechnya...

[onefreespiritedchick]

165. Not to side with Putin on this one

But, I've thought this from the beginning... This all seemed too "Wag the Dog" in my opinion.

[Dr Fate]

167. Maybe Bush stared into his soul or something.

n/t

[farmbo]

169. 1)Rove meets with Saakashvili, 2)Georgia shells S.Ossetia ...Questions?

Saakashvili shelled civilian areas in South Ossetia-- killing a dozen Russian peacekeepers in the process-- on the opening day of the Olympics while Putin was in China. They did not bumble into this war.It was a calculated (or Mis-calculated) sneak attack.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/08/russia.georgia1

Both Rove and McCain's lobbyist butt-buddy Scheunemann consulted with Saakashvili a month before the shelling began.

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/13/did-karl-rove-chat-to-saakashvili-about-south-ossetia-too/

What did they plan?

Duh?

McCain's numbers ratchet up whenever military tensions arise (don't ask) so its a safe bet that Rove et al coaxed Georgia to start the dance... while they fired up the propaganda organ.

[DissedByBush]

205. Peacekeepers? Sneak attack?

Peacekeepers? Putin has had FSB agents in South Ossetia for over a year setting up a revolt.

Sneak attack? Putin had been staging Russian troops for an attack on Georgia for months, even repaired a rail line to more easily move heavy equipment in support of the attack. There is no way the Russian invasion was in response to a sneak attack.

It is obvious that Russia set up a revolt and positioned troops to respond to the inevitable suppression of that revolt.

[AntiFascist]

240. K&R, this could very well be part of a Rovian plot to get McCain elected...

From Emptywheel's blog entry:

Given the way McCain has boasted of his frequent calls to Saakashvili in attempts to reclaim the mantle of the best international leader, it raises questions of whether the Administration's "see no evil" approach to Georgia was part of a deliberate campaign strategy.

Particularly when you consider the fact that Karl Rove may have met with Saakashvili just days after the July 9 private dinner between Condi and Saakashvili that the White House, State, and DOD are now panicking about. Rove was in the neighborhood, in Yalta, at a conference with Saakashvili three days after the meeting (h/t brendanx).

If the MSM covered this it could destroy McCain's campaign and expose him for the warmonger that he is.

[Willo]

170. That's what I suspected.

Once, Bush & Co. started pointing fingers with certainty, I kinda have no choice but to look in the opposite direction with suspicion.

What lengths will they go to this time to PROVE how much danger we're in? That's the scary question.

911. Wash, rinse, repeat.

[RoccoR5955]

171. You failed to mention that Cheney's men were in Georgia...

... a couple of days before the war. What were they doing there? Cheney's not going to tell us. I wouldn't put it past Dead Eye Dick, and his Bushco, Inc. cronies to start this.
You also failed to mention that though the Corporate Media did not report that Georgia started this. They attacked, NOT Russia.
They need this to get McAncient into office. Just like the prank they are going to pull tonight, and announce McAin't's VP.

[harun]

175. Imagine if Putin had hard evidence of them doing this and they presented

it at the UN.

[dem91203]

176. Georgia over run by the FSU

[MasonJar]

177. It is irrelevant in this discussion what Putin and our PRECIOUS pres

have done in the past. Bush started this debacle on purpose. Just like his dad encouraged Saddam to attack Kuwait, Georgie has been arming Georgia and sent them to fight the citizens and peace keepers in South Ossetia. The Georgian peace keepers (who had been working side by side with the Russian peace keepers since the 90s) turned on the Russian peace keepers and killed them with no warning or provocation. Allegedly then Georgia bombed the major city, murdering 7000 civilians. This is pure Cheney/Bush politics/agenda.

[Grinchie]

239. Don't forget that Israel has been furiously selling weapons to Georgia as well

I saw one report hat said their were 1000 Israeli soldiers training the Georgians as well.

[ba5500]

180. RE:Putin accuses U.S. of orchestrating Georgian war

What an ignorant fool

[superconnected]

190. Unfortunately, it's very probable. We've armed so many groups to take over

countries now. We even train them.

[AnnieBW]

194. I don't believe an asshole like Putin, but...

I'm sure that there's some truth to it.

[scarface2004]

195. putin would make a great president!

u s president that is!!!

[Name removed]

199. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[whirlygigspin]

200. Putin accuses US of starting Georgia crisis as election ploy

Source: UK Guardian

"Vladimir Putin, Russia's prime minister, said yesterday that the Caucasus crisis was started by the US as an election ploy."

"As Moscow found itself increasingly isolated internationally for invading Georgia and recognising two breakaway regions of the country as independent states, Putin suggested that the Georgia war had been cooked up in Washington to create a neo-cold war climate that would strengthen Republican candidate John McCain's bid for the White House."


--Is this the result of Karl Rove's trip to Yalta?



Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/29/russia.georgia

---

hmmm

wag the dog?

[tularetom]

201. Wag the dog? Big time!

I'm no mensa member but I thought this right from the start.

[Wilber_Stool]

202. No argument from me....n/t

[ileus]

207. Bush can't even orchestrate his own wars, let alone somebody else's.

[Monk06]

206. Since the fall of Gorbachev and the rise of Yeltsin the West's aim

has been to humiliate Russia and control the
vast Oil, Gas and Uranium resources in Russia
and the Central Asian Republics.

Putin quietly came to power and then proceeded
to imprison Yeltsin's kleptomaniac buddies and
kick all the western oil companies out of the
country.

He now has Europe over the barrel on energy and
everyone knows it.

If Bush and whoever his successor is provokes a pan
Caucasian war in order to break the Russian
energy monopoly, Putin has made it quite clear
he will risk a world war to prevent it.

This is serious business. Unfortunately Bush and
Mc Cain are not taking Putin and the Russians seriously.

Putin is not Khrushchev, we will not wilt under pressure.

[IsItJustMe]

210. The only thing I know for sure, after observing the last eight years is this, I can not truth GW, I

can not trust the people he put in positions of power, I can not trust the Republicans, and I can not trust our news media. So, out of necessity for the search of truth, I have to look else where. Is Putin's story plausible, you bet it is.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

218. BINGO FOR YOU....

NOTHING MORE DANGEROUS THAN CAGED REPUBLICANS

[go west young man]

219. I do believe Putin has something there.

I hope the Russians produce more data over the next few days to help blow the lid off our criminal government.

[Douglas Carpenter]

220. very, very interesting. I don't know what to think, But still very interesting

[SoCalDemGrrl]

222. OMG Republicans would actually do that? (sarcasm off)

[go west young man]

223. A little CNN/AP propaganda "catch" here:

Check out this article from Australia in regards to China's position on Georgia. http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24256861-401,00.html
Then reread the CNN article above. CNN quoting AP, misleads with the following:

But Russia's hopes of winning international support for its actions in Georgia were dashed Thursday, when China and other Asian nations expressed concern about tension in the region.

The joint declaration from the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, which includes China, Russia, Tajikistan, Kyrgystan, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan, said the countries hoped that any further conflict could be resolved peacefully.

"The presidents reaffirmed their commitment to the principles of respect for historic and cultural traditions of every country and efforts aimed at preserving the unity of a state and its territorial integrity," the declaration said, The Associated Press reported.

"Placing the emphasis exclusively on the use of force has no prospects and hinders a comprehensive settlement of local conflicts," AP quoted the group as saying.


The AU article clearly states:

RUSSIA today won support from China and Central Asian states in its standoff with the West over the Georgia conflict as the European Union said it was weighing sanctions against Moscow.

And this from the SCO themselves: http://news.trendaz.com/index.shtml?show=news&newsid=1280898&lang=EN

Quote: In particular, declaration says “SCO member-countries hail approval of the six principles in Moscow on 12 August to regulate the conflict in South Ossetia and support Russia’s active role to assist world and cooperation in the region”.





Someone's not exactly telling the truth. Can anyone guess who?

[AntiFascist]

241. Wow, thanks for that...something didn't seem right about this...

It's a clear example that American media has become the new Pravda, i.e. propaganda we cannot trust.

[nikto]

224. Bu$hCo has somehow succeeded...

...In making an undemocratic authoritarian leader
like Putin look not only good, but in the RIGHT.




People who support McSCUM are as vile as he is.

Whoomp!
There it is.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

235. K&R with love

:dilemma:

[WildEyedLiberal]

244. The US FORCED Russia to invade Georgia? Really?

It disgusts me how many people here will believe ANYTHING as long as it looks bad for Bush, even if it means trusting and believing the word of one of the most anti-democratic autocrats in the world. For fuck's sake.

You were all so OUTRAGED over the invasion of Iraq, a SOVEREIGN country, by the US. As well you should've been. But Russia invading a SOVEREIGN country is perfectly excusable, because "the US made them do it"? Russia isn't responsible for their own actions, now? Or is it only a terrible violation of international law if the US/Bush does it? Are civilian casualties only regrettable when the dead perish from US or US allies' bombs and guns? South Ossetians killed by Georgia are victims of the criminal neocon conspiracy, but Georgians killed by Russian forces are collateral damage which Putin and Russia surely had no control over?

It is amazing how many of you will completely and totally absolve Russia of any responsibility for its own actions because you want and need EVERYTHING bad that happens in the world to be Bush's fault.

[reorg]

246. getting a little confused here

Of course, civilian (and military) casualties are a terrible thing, whether caused by American invaders or by a Georgian military attack, ordered by a president who came to power with American help and is being supported by the Bush regime to this very day.

The Russians are in South Ossetia because of an international agreement:

"The June 24, 1992 Sochi Agreement established a cease-fire between the Georgian and South Ossetian forces and defined both a zone of conflict around the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali and a security corridor along the border of South Ossetian territories. The Agreement also created the Joint Control Commission (JCC), and a peacekeeping body, the Joint Peacekeeping Forces group (JPKF). The JPKF is under Russian command and is comprised of peacekeepers from Georgia, Russia, and Russia's North Ossetian autonomous republic (as the separatist South Ossetian government remained unrecognized). South Ossetian peacekeepers, however, serve in the North Ossetian contingent. The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) agreed to monitor the ceasefire and facilitate negotiations."

http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/fs/53721.htm


It is not in dispute that Georgia carried out a military attack against the forces in South Ossetia. The Russians defended themselves and the population in South Ossetia against that attack. Which is in accordance with international law and not a "terrible violation" of same. Case closed.

[WildEyedLiberal]

247. Such mental gymnastics to defend something that, had Bush done it, you'd be decrying from on high

What part of "Russia invaded Georgian sovereign territory" DON'T you understand? They didn't "defend" shit when they invaded Georgia and occupied a Georgian city, and dug in trenches 25 miles from Tbilisi. And you neglect to mention the citizens of Gori and other Georgian towns killed and displaced by Russian troops. So that's okay with you then - as long as they were killed by Russian invaders and not American invaders. Gotcha.

If Russia is "completely justified" in invading Georgian territory to "defend" itself - despite the fact that its actual physical territory was not attacked - then the US must have been "completely justified" in defending itself against attacks in Iraq and Afghanistan, even though they didn't physically attack Americans or American soil, right? Oh wait, no, you're just a fucking hypocrite who holds the US to a moral standard of behavior to which you have no interest in holding other unsavory, undemocratic autocratic imperialists. Imperialism and redrawing international borders is only bad when the US does it, I guess :eyes:

[reorg]

255. I merely stated some facts, sorry if that is too much exercise for you

- and what part of "security corridor along the border of South Ossetian territories" did you fail to get?

The "trenches" (a watch tower of timber, actually) "25 miles from Tbilisi" is 5 miles south of the South Ossetian border, well within the buffer zone.

The Russians did not "occupy" Gori, they did not "redraw" any borders, they attacked military installations and destroyed weapons depots to prevent a repeat attack against South Ossetia and Russian peace keepers by the Georgian puppet of Bush. After a few days, they left. Ships in the port of Poti are being checked for the same reason (Poti is close to the other breakaway region, Abkhazia, BTW).

You dare to compare this with the rape of Iraq? Interesting. I'm sure nobody will accuse you of hating Bush too much, LOL.

[WildEyedLiberal]

267. Your post sounds exactly like freeper justifications for Iraq

The US military only targets "military installations," too. Guess what? Civilians still die. If you think dropping bombs on a highly populated area is somehow going to magically only hit "military targets," you're as much a fool as the freepers who just can't understand why the Iraqis aren't falling at our feet thanking us for liberating them.

They didn't redraw any borders? HAHA, have you even been paying attention to this at all? I guess you missed when Russia's parliament voted to recognize the autonomy of South Ossetia and Abkhazia (which, by the way, had nothing to do with this conflict until RUSSIA brought them into it). What the fuck, exactly, constitutes "redrawing borders" in your book, then?

The "rape of Iraq" has been ongoing for 5 years. If you don't think Russia leaving troops in Georgia for five years would elicit a similar result, you are either delusional or a moron. You seem to think that in order to hate Bush, I have to excuse violations of international law committed by his alleged "enemies". Sorry, real life doesn't work like that.

[Snarkturian Clone]

248. I'm glad somebody said this.

I was going to write something similar but I'm tired of trying. So many Duers are completely and totally irrational because of their hatred for bush. ANYTHING anyone says against him will be automatically believed. Look how many people here instantly agreed with Putin without a stitch of proof. It's really pathetic around here, I'm really about to be done with it.

I'm starting to see the similarities between freepers and Duers. Anything one of them agrees with is true and honorable... anything one of them doesn't agree with is a smear from the other party. Both sides believe that the other controls the media... that should be a sign right there that neither one is right. Both believe in goofy crap.. the freepers with their god stuff and the DUers with their CT stuff. Both will shout down anyone who wants to bring up a logical argument or ask for proof of something that is held to be true for no reason.

[WildEyedLiberal]

250. I'm done trying, too

At this point I just enjoy calling out the bullshit where I see it, and watching the idiots call me a "fascist" because I don't gibber mindlessly in total agreement with their kneejerk sentiments. DU is basically a bad habit I can't break, at this point - GD and GDP are, as evidenced by this thread, totally worthless. Some of the subfora still have some great people and discussions, but that's about it.

[High Plains]

266. Bye now!

Why bother hanging around with all those inferior idiots, hypocrites, and assholes?

[WildEyedLiberal]

268. If you can't see that there are indeed idiots, hypocrites, and assholes on DU, you're blind

There are a few decent posters who make it worthwhile, and a few decent fora, but by and large, GD is a complete cesspool which offers absolutely nothing of value in the way of intelligent discussion of current events. Here's another shocker for you: I am far from the only longtime DUer of this opinion.

[go west young man]

269. Maybe its your approach. Your exceptionally "loud" and like to

swear a lot. Your tone isn't one of debate. It's a loud opinion and any DU'er with half a brain can see that. The Freeper comparison is uncalled for and silly. Post links to your "facts" and you'll get taken more seriously. That's what proper Du'ing is all about.

[DutchLiberal]

282. Thank you for injecting some much-needed reality into this thread...

(And may I add, I love that photo of senator Kerry!)

[wiseoldman]

245. So what was the passport of a U.S. citizen.....

So what was the "passport of a U.S. citizen, Michael Lee White, born in 1967" doing in the South Ossetian village among items belonging to Georgian Special Forces.

"The passport, issued in the Texas city of Houston, bore a current visa from Kazakhstan."

When we find out who this guy is it will tell us a lot.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LS144331.htm

[FreakinDJ]

252. Putin suggests U.S. pushed Georgia to war

Source: The Seattle Times Company



The United States and Russia on Thursday traded some of their sharpest words over the conflict in Georgia, including a suggestion by Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin that Washington provoked the fighting to sway the outcome of the U.S. presidential race.

The Cold War-style barbs, hurled at long range from the two capitals and face-to-face at the United Nations, underscored the breakdown of diplomatic efforts to resolve three weeks of tension over Russia's military intervention in the former Soviet republic.

Putin did not specify which U.S. candidate he thought the crisis was intended to help, but the official RIA-Novosti news agency quoted experts as saying it had boosted the campaign of the presumptive Republican nominee, Sen. John McCain.

Russia faced international isolation two days after recognizing the independence of a pair of rebel Georgian regions at the heart of the conflict. It won no support at meetings of the U.N. Security Council and an Asian alliance that embraces Russia, China and four Central Asian nations.



Read more: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2008145833_russia29.html

---

I'm writing Pelosi - we have got to start impeachment hearing immediately before they get us in a shooting war

[undeterred]

253. Its not news that the US starts wars, but starting them

for an election is stooping pretty low.

[vincent_vega_lives]

259. So when Russia invades the Ukraine

and blames President Obama for inciting it are we still going to believe Putin? :shrug:

[reorg]

260. Wow, Russia invaded the Ukraine?

Totally missed that. :o

Must have been so immersed in my hatred of Bush that I didn't notice anymore what is going on in the wide wide world ... :scared:

[vincent_vega_lives]

261. Me thinks you need to go back and relearn

past vs future tense.

[reorg]

262. Sorry, my bad

So you can actually look into the future? :tinfoilhat:

When will the Russians invade?

And why will Obama encourage the Ukraine to attack them first?

And will my tax return be enough to pay for an extended holiday in Hawaii?

Things I'd really like to know.

[vincent_vega_lives]

263. Me thinks you need to study up on

Hypotheticals.

Who is claiming Obama would encourage anyone to attack anyone?

[Regret My New Name]

270. lol... he's being a smartass... You seriously didn't pick that up?

[wiseoldman]

264. Somebody been watching too much...

..... Corporate News Channel (CNN) and Faux News if they don't understand what the little criminal Saakashvili has done!

Just one of hundreds of examples: http://www.thenation.com/blogs/campaignmatters/345250

"What was Mikheil Saakashvili thinking when he started poking at Russia in a manner that Mikhail Gorbachev correctly observes has "turned out to be a time bomb for Georgia's territorial integrity."?

That question is easily answered.

The Georgian president whose ties to the U.S. run through John McCain's campaign headquarters was thinking that McCain was a man of stature in the U.S. foreign policy heirachy, a "player" whose words could be counted on as having at least a measure of meaning."

[wiseoldman]

265. Wal-Marts across Alabama sold out of ammunition

All of the Wal-Marts across Alabama sold out of ammunition as of yesterday. A reliable source said that one of the purchasers commented that while Russia may have invaded Georgia, they sure as hell ain't a doin' it to Alabama.

Now there is some good old boys must be only a watchin Faux News!


P.S. to any "Sheepers" a lurkin... this is a joke - Russia did not really attack our Georgia!

[pleah]

284. It's all about the oil. n/t

[Satyagrahi]

286. Transcript: CNN interview with Vladimir Putin

Vladimir Putin: ... Why are you surprised at my hypothesis, after all? There are problems in the Middle East; reconciliation there is elusive. In Afghanistan, things are not getting any better; what is more, the Taliban have launched a fall offensive, and dozens of NATO servicemen are being killed.

In Iraq, after the euphoria of the first victories, there are problems everywhere, and the number of those killed has reached 4,000.

There are problems in the economy, as we know only too well. There are financial problems, the mortgage crisis. Even we are concerned about it, and we want it to end soon, but it is there.

A little victorious war is needed. And if it doesn't work, then one can lay the blame on us, use us to create an enemy image, and against the backdrop of this kind of jingoism once again rally the country around certain political forces.

More:
http://us.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/29/putin.transcript/#cnnSTCText