Flight 3407 did not crash nose-down, federal investigators say

[RamboLiberal]

Source: Buffalo News

Contrary to eyewitness reports that Continental Flight 3407 crashed nose-down into a Clarence home Thursday, federal investigators said today there's evidence that the airplane landed flat.

"We found the cockpit, tail section, both wings and the engine. And they're where they should be if an airplane was laying flat," National Transportation Safety Board Member Steven Chealander told reporters at a news conference late this afternoon in Amherst.

The plane also was pointed away from the airport runway where it was supposed to land, Chealander said.

The aircraft's stall-protection mechanisms had been activated … devices that warn the pilot of possible in-flight stalls.



Read more: http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/579277.html

[babylonsister]

1. This plane only destroyed one home. Think about that.

I remember Rockaway, in NY, a month or two after 9/11, when a plane headed to the Dominican Republic out of NY ditched; it destroyed a block, and killed over 200-300 people. I saw the block; the people in Buffalo are lucky more people weren't killed.

It's a travesty, but it could have been so much worse.

[BrklynLiberal]

5. Yes I remember that crash in Belle Harbor...

[jumptheshadow]

23. I've been so sad this weekend

That was an amazing group of people on that plane and Buffalo is such a tight-knit community.

Back when I worked in downtown Buffalo the heavy gusts would sweep in off the lake during winter. My office had guide ropes going out about 90 feet because the flyweight women kept on getting blown off the ground.

People adapted, however, and there had never been an accident like this in Buffalo, probably because the skill of the mechanics and controllers there.

My sister lives in Clarence but she was 15 minutes away from impact. The plane that landed in the Hudson flew right by my partner's building before it landed in the river. Life is so precious, and as our president pointed out, it's so fragile, too.

[BrklynLiberal]

24. Wow. You have been touched by a lot of sadness lately...

[alcibiades_mystery]

6. Belle Harbor crash killed only 5 on the ground

and destroyed 12 or so houses.

260 perished on board.

[Retrograde]

26. Clarence isn't as dense as NYC

It's fairly spaced out, and still quite a bit of open area. And it was a smaller plane.

I grew up in Buffalo, roughly the same distance from the other end of the runway the plane was heading for. That's still a tighter populated area, as is the area close to the airport. It was a tragedy for the people involved, but it could have been much worse.

[rainbow4321]

2. Amazing that there were any parts left to find

Given the huge amount of flames you'd think it's be impossible to distinguish the cockpit, wings, etc...
So did it spin around before crashing?: "The plane also was pointed away from the airport runway"

[TheWraith]

3. The fire wouldn't have consumed the skeleton of the plane.

It might have burned hot enough to cause the aluminum to melt or shred, or even the steel to warp, but the basic components would still be there.

[Pavulon]

4. Yes, before this gets out of hand

there will be burned humans and jet parts on site. Dont know if the ME in that county publishes pictures, but sure some can be found. Any scum posting otherwise can probably post pictures or first responder info to make themselves happy that a plane crashed and burned killing passengers..

[Muttocracy]

11. I think it broke apart so some parts were less burned

some photos showed part of the cockpit, landing gear, tail in tangles various places but not in the main fire.

http://www.buffalonews.com/ has lots of photos.

[NutmegYankee]

20. If it landed flat, then the section with the wings burned up...

and the rest of the plane outside of the house escaped the fire.

[maseman]

21. I hate to use this analogy

but think of a light leaf falling from a tree slowly spiraling and landing flat on the ground. That's what would have happened.

The ice on the wings of the Q400 coupled with the low airspeed for landing caused the wings to stall (quite producing lift) and the plane simply slowly spun and landed on the house. That is why it was facing a different direction than the aiport.

Very sad indeed.

[BrklynLiberal]

25. That is terrible..The people on board had to knw what was happening....

[Oldtimeralso]

7. More Evidence of Stall,

probably due to icing on wings. It destroys the airflow characteristics of the wing combined with the flaps and gear being deployed there was not enough forward speed to provide lift, the aircraft will flutter and fall to earth like a leaf from a tree. If the described conditions are true it would take a lot of precise actions to recover from the stall. Insure the deicer boots are on and operating, retract flaps and gear, while applying full power and if altitude allows a slight nose down attitude. In this case time and altitude may have been lacking. The NTSB will give a final report in about a year.

[aquart]

8. I love the care the NTSB takes.

Because I want to know what we all do...was there a way to prevent it? If not, can we find one?

[RamboLiberal]

12. From some of the aviation forums I've read some pilots are

speculating it might have been a tail stall from ice on the tail surfaces. Hope one of our DU pilots chimes in on this. Wonder if T-Tail makes a difference?

CHARLESTON, SC (WCSC) - "The poor folks on this plane, they had it all," said former transportation Mary Schiavo.

"They had heavy winds, they had icing conditions those are the classic elements for a tail stall from icing or an icing stall," said Schiavo.

Those classic elements led to tragedy outside Buffalo New York Thursday night.

http://www.live5news.com/Global/story.asp?S=9844804

Originally Posted by JetJock16
I fear they experience a Tail-Plane Stall. That and a prop overspeed at low altitudes are two scenarios that I think about the most. I don’t care how many hours you have; at 2300’ after a LONG day and with only milliseconds to diagnose, it’s hard to recover from. If you treat it like a normal stall you just deepen the situation.

My heart bleeds to all involved……….RIP my brothers and sisters!

Yes, this is true. Tail stall (IF that's what happened here) recovery actions according to most known FAA information is REDUCE engine power and PULL UP to recover. Normal stall recovery is increase power and PUSH or relax elevator. Completely opposite. Makes you wonder if there could be a separate system to differentiate the TYPE of stall you are encountering Wing Stall vs. Tail Stall.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/regional/36891-colgan-q400-crash-outside-buf-33.html

[Oldtimeralso]

13. This Is Also True,

But what about the possibility of asymmetrical icing due to a failure of a boot on one wing. Either situation could cause a very experienced captain to buy a farm.

[RamboLiberal]

14. Definitely asymetrical icing could be a cause

I wasn't disputing you, just adding another factor I was reading on some of the aviation forums.

[GliderGuider]

16. Having experienced a partial tail stall in a T-tail glider a number of years ago

It's one of the airflow scenarios that scares me the most. I think a fully developed tail stall is virtually unrecoverable, no matter how much altitude or airspeed you have. Now I've never flown power, so there may be things I don't know about this sort of incident, but I do know that a lot of very experienced sailplane pilots have been killed by tail stalls over the years.

[Politicalboi]

9. I wonder if they will reconstruct the plane

And if we will be able to see pictures of it unlike flight 93 on 9/11 or the Pentagon plane.

[krispos42]

10. The pilot reported icing on the left side of the plane.

I bet the left wing abruptly lost life and the plane suddenly dipped left and went into a spin. Just an idea, but I can see it happening.



I hope the end was quick... :-(

[the other one]

15. Any idea why the sudden cut-off in communications?

Just wondering.

[frogcycle]

17. impact? n/t

[VP505]

18. That and and reaching

M-P-F prior to impact would give communications a very low priority.

[uppityperson]

19. It was fast. It crashed.

[Beartracks]

22. Pointed away from airport?

I just read the following in an article on MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29194109/):

"The plane, flying through light snow and mist, crashed belly-first into the house, with the aircraft's nose pointed away from the airport.

"Investigators did not offer an explanation, but the orientation raised the possibility that the pilot was fighting an icy airplane. Air safety guidelines says a pilot can try a 180-degree turn to rid a plane of ice."


I'll admit I don't understand this: how is a plane coming down flat and pointing away from the airport unusual? How is that evidence the pilot might have been doing a 180 maneuver?

[RamboLiberal]

27. Probably because it was in a flat spin

As others who know aviation have pointed out, think of a leave fluttering down. Coming down in a circular motion.

[RamboLiberal]

28. More info

-----

Chealander said information from the plane's flight data recorder indicated that the aircraft pitched up at an angle of 31 degrees in its final seconds, then pitched down at 45 degrees.

The plane rolled to the left at 46 degrees, then snapped back to the right at 105 degrees — 15 degrees beyond vertical.

Radar data shows Flight 3407 fell from 1,800 feet above sea level to 1,000 feet in five seconds, he said. Passengers and crew would have experienced G-forces up to twice as strong as on the ground.

-----

Chealander said the plane was on autopilot until the "stick shaker" and "stick pusher" kicked in, automatically putting the plane back in the pilot's hands.

At some point, the pilot switched on an anti-stall device that increases the speed of the plane by 20 knots and gives a pilot more margin to recover from a stall if it occurs.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=6886344