Administration Is Open to Taxing Health Benefits

[underpants]

Source: NY Times

WASHINGTON — The Obama administration is signaling to Congress that the president could support taxing some employee health benefits, as several influential lawmakers and many economists favor, to help pay for overhauling the health care system.

They, like other proponents, cite evidence that tax-free benefits encourage what Mr. McCain called “gold-plated” policies, resulting in inefficient and costly demands for health care and pressure on employers to hold down workers’ pay as insurance expenses rise. And, they say, the policy discriminates against those — many of whom are low-income workers — who do not have employer-provided coverage.

When Senator Max Baucus, Democrat of Montana, advocated taxing benefits at a recent hearing of the Finance Committee, which he leads, Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner assured him that the administration was open to all ideas from Congress. Mr. Geithner did, however, allude to the position that Mr. Obama had taken as a candidate.

Some big businesses consider nontaxable employment benefits a tool for recruiting and retaining workers. The United States Chamber of Commerce opposes eliminating the exclusion on health benefits, but James P. Gelfand, senior manager of health policy, said the group had not taken a position on limiting it.

Organized labor, a pillar of the Democratic Party base, considers the benefits among the union movement’s historic achievements for the middle class. But a split could be developing between the manufacturing unions, which have negotiated rich benefit packages, and the growing service employees unions, which include many low-wage workers without generous benefits.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/15/us/politics/15health.html?hp

[OhioChick]

1. I find this to be quite disheartening, to say the least. n/t

[sutz12]

3. Agreed.

:shrug:

[FrenchieCat]

35. I find you quite gullible.....

and that's very disappointing!

Barack Obama thus far has stuck pretty close to his campaign promises....and he's been consistent on what won't happen in health care reform under him, and one of those things is taxing Health Care benefits. This is something he stated in each of the three debates.

Obama even ran ads and shit specifically campaigning against McCain's idea on this taxing health benefits!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/03/post-debate-obama-ad-atta_n_131516.html

The Final Debate:

OBAMA: Zero, because as I said in our last debate and I'll repeat, John, I exempt small businesses from the requirement for large businesses that can afford to provide health care to their employees, but are not doing it.

I exempt small businesses from having to pay into a kitty. But large businesses that can afford it, we've got a choice. Either they provide health insurance to their employees or somebody has to.

Right now, what happens is those employees get dumped into either the Medicaid system, which taxpayers pick up, or they're going to the emergency room for uncompensated care, which everybody picks up in their premiums.

The average family is paying an additional $900 a year in higher premiums because of the uninsured.

So here's what we do. We exempt small businesses. In fact, what, Joe, if you want to do the right thing with your employees and you want to provide them health insurance, we'll give you a 50 percent credit so that you will actually be able to afford it.

If you don't have health insurance or you want to buy into a group plan, you will be able to buy into the plan that I just described.

Now, what we haven't talked about is Senator McCain's plan. He says he's going to give you all a $5,000 tax credit. That sounds pretty good. And you can go out and buy your own insurance.

Here's the problem -- that for about 20 million people, you may find yourselves no longer having employer-based health insurance. This is because younger people might be able to get health insurance for $5,000, young and healthy folks.

Older folks, let's healthy folks, what's going to end up happening is that you're going to be the only ones left in your employer-based system, your employers won't be able to afford it.

And once you're out on your own with this $5,000 credit, Senator McCain, for the first time, is going to be taxing the health care benefits that you have from your employer.

And this is your plan, John. For the first time in history, you will be taxing people's health care benefits.

By the way, the average policy costs about $12,000. So if you've got $5,000 and it's going to cost you $12,000, that's a loss for you.

Last point about Senator McCain's plan is that insurers right now, the main restrictions on what they do is primarily state law and, under Senator McCain's plan, those rules would be stripped away and you would start seeing a lot more insurance companies cherry-picking and excluding people from coverage.

That, I think, is a mistake and I think that this is a fundamental difference in our campaign and how we would approach health care.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/10/debate-transcri.html

[Mithreal]

38. I believe FrenchieCat is 100% right on. These are Scare Tactics.

The coprophage media has been exposed as having the expressed goal of bringing down the President's approval ratings.

There are Obama policies we can argue but this isn't one of them.

Come on folks, be on guard for BS, the media lies are going to continue to escalate the closer we get to significant change.

[FrenchieCat]

41. Aye.....

It's like folks don't want to understand that what is being started
is an all out call out on the upcoming Obama Health Care reforms,
Education reforms, and budget moves....

this is the fight being brought to us by the corporate status quo powers-that-be.

They and their minions are putting out as many unsourced, unattributed bullshit articles
on various issues, attempting to turn Obama's base against him.

They understand that the lower Obama's poll numbers go, the less of a mandate for change,
our President will have.

We are in for some real drama,
and in the end,
if the asshole manipulative status quo wins,
We will be the losers.

I don't even think it takes a college degree to figure this out.

It is the only offensive available to Barack Obama strategy of presenting too many plans all at once for them to argue. Rather than doing fighting that losing battle, they figure they can just knock down his support and win the battle that way.

So the question is how many will be all too willing to buy the horseshit being
blatenly shoveled into our faces? And whether they will finally figure out
what happened, after they are left scratching their asses minus any health plan, education reform, or the most transformative Democratic Budget ever proposed? :(

[TomClash]

63. His OMB Director and NEC Deputy floated it

It's a terrible idea. Gibbs needs to kill this idea today.

[OhioChick]

81. If I'm gullible....than many on this thread are....

See posts #75 and #76.

Those articles don't give me the warm and fuzzies. I hope they're wrong.

[OVERPAID01]

49. Is nothing sacred

My benefits are now going to be taxable, business as usual in the white house. It didn't take long for the Corporations to get their meat hooks into the "candidate for change". I am beyond words, what a load of "xxxx" because others don't have benefits what little i have left is making others jealous. It is time to seriously consider moving to Canada permanently.

[Plausible]

72. It will take Obama down if he does

It had a lot to do with McBush losing the election.

[emilyg]

2. Not good.

[jody]

4. Apparently Obama agrees with McCain that tax-free health care benefits are "gold-plated" policies.nt

[Mithreal]

39. Apparently is just not true. Have heart, keep hope. nt

[FrenchieCat]

43. Jody wants to believe the bullshit.......

so you are barking up the wrong tree on that one...unfortunately.

[jody]

58. Several papers report the same story so if its not true, the facts will be known. Why do you rush to

apologize for Obama before he has an opportunity to deny the story as I'm sure he will if it's not true.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

65. For asking the hard questions you are very wicked, jody! ;-) n/t

[Abq_Sarah]

91. Well, first off

Obama hasn't said anything. His advisers have been leaking this to several new sources including the NYT. The gist of it is if the congress wants to pass it, he'll sign it since he is rapidly running out of new sources of revenue. If this were included in another omnibus spending bill, I do believe President Obama would sign it and he'll allow the Congress to take the heat because Washington desperately needs more tax dollars. If spending money you don't have leads to prosperity, we wouldn't be in this current mess.

[jody]

79. See my post #75 that proves you wrong. Have a nice day. n/t

[marshall]

61. A good idea is a good idea, regardless of who thought ot it

I'm glad that Obama is willing to examine every possibility, even those proposed by his opponent, in order to find a way out of our financial mess. It takes a big man or woman to put their ego in the backseat and put "the good of the American people" in the driver's seat.

[jody]

62. The cited policy would not put workers in the driver's seat but on the street hitchhiking. n/t

[FreakinDJ]

5. OK Obama is smoking crack - now I believe it

[tonysam]

6. You Know, If I Wanted a Republican in the White House,

I'd have voted for McCain. Good grief, Obama needs to throw the neoliberalism in the trash can.

[FreakinDJ]

11. I think its Bull Shit from our friends at the Corp. Media

They see the shit storm coming and some serious calls for Media Re-Regulation. This is the exact type of responce I would expect from those lying duech bags

[Dr.Phool]

7. Barack Hussein Bush.

More change we can make believe in.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. As long as Obama, McCain, and the rest of them tax theirs as well

I would also like to see what he means by "gold plated benefits". The medical plans most of us are under are now where near gold, or tin for that matter

[countingbluecars]

9. The only thing I take from this

is that the Obama administration will listen and consider all ideas from Congress. When all is said and done, I don't think this will happen.

[Mithreal]

40. There was a lot of resistance to allowing single payer

advocates to join the discussion. Otherwise, I agree.

[bluestateguy]

10. This story is poorly sourced and poorly written. It is BS

So I am going to pretend like I did not read it.

[wroberts189]

16. I am going to stand over in your corner....

It's a cleverly written hit piece that needs to be read carefully to see the bs.

[wroberts189]

12. signaling? who is signaling??? Thats just smoke from the chimney....

snip

"Mr. Geithner did, however, allude to the position that Mr. Obama had taken as a candidate."


lets say that again


"the position that Mr. Obama had taken as a candidate"


no tax on benefits that I know of were ever mentioned on stump speeches.

[defendandprotect]

13. How about stopping or taxing Congress' health benefits until we get Single Payer . . . !!???

[OhioChick]

15. ....

:applause:

[notesdev]

14. Nice, force people off the health care rolls

what a brilliant idea. Did Turbo Tim think of this one?

No wonder Obama's ratings are cliff-diving, China's harassing our navy, and Russia is about to park strategic bombers in the Caribbean.

Not quite the "hope and change" I expected, how about you?

[countingbluecars]

19. Obama's ratings are cliff-diving?

And I wouldn't jump to conclusions based on this article.

[FrenchieCat]

26. It's called an all out assault on the President and his plans,

in particular health care reform and his budget.

The media figures if it can find enough fools,
to be pissed off at him on something or another,
they can put a dent in his numbers,
and therefore reduce his mandate.

You found the fool's club. They were looking for you!

[TomClash]

64. Read the article

It tells you who floated this idea: Orszag and Freeman.

[IndianaGreen]

17. Basically this would be a tax increase on the working class at the worse possible time

How about McCain giving up his health benefits, or extending them to the entire country? The American people are entitled to the same health case as members of Congress.

[FrenchieCat]

28. Obama knows this.....and never ever stated that he would do this

during the campaign. In fact, he campaigned against it...
which I'm sure is specifically why this particular angle was chosen
by the corporate mediawhores.
They know that those who voted FOR Obama,
did not vote for this, since it was McCain's plan
and based on how the article reads,
it is easy to tell that this is just a set up
to drum up some Obama opposition.

They are hitting him from every angle.

Trying to stop him from reforming health care and passing his budget
is going to be a full time job for these corporate mediawhores.

[KamaAina]

101. But they're experienced at it

Trying to stop him from reforming health care and passing his budget
is going to be a full time job for these corporate mediawhores.

Harry and Louise are about to come out of retirement... :puke:

[Triana]

30. bait & switch - cut our income tax rate - but increase our taxes by taxing our healthcare....

give it back with one hand - take it away with the other.

NET ZERO for the middle-class - slamming us when we can afford it the least.

[FrenchieCat]

33. On the barackobama.com website....

Health Care
Obama's Stance on Health Care
Barack Obama’s health care plan will provide accessible, affordable coverage for all, and it will reduce health care costs for families.


McCain's Stance on Health Care
John McCain’s health plan would tax health benefits for the first time ever — imposing a trillion tax increase on working families and leaving millions without heath care.

Learn More
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

[Downwinder]

18. Wondering how this would be implemented.

I would be happy to see members of Congress pay tax on their gold platted policies. But I would not like to pay a tax on my $15,000.00 per year of medicare drugs. There is already nothing left of my social Security at the end of the month.

Do you tax on the policy cost or on services received? How do you handle charitable care?

[FrenchieCat]

20. President Obama ain't signal shit!

The Times is taking "all on the table" and running with it!

Assholes!

[countingbluecars]

21. Exactly

I just don't get why some people here are so quick to think the worst.

[wroberts189]

22. Because the media is so devious .. I get fooled sometimes as well. nt

[FrenchieCat]

23. They are Headline Reactionaries!

We have quite a few here at DU.

Critical reading is really not that difficult!

I routinely click on the link even.
Possibly because I'm not into believing bullshit,
just because it is served to me on a plate. :eyes:

[wroberts189]

27. "Headline Reactionaries" ... you think that up?

That's a good one.

Have not heard that phrase before.

[FrenchieCat]

31. I made it up, after seeing it happen over and over again here at DU.

You get about 10 posts to an unsourced unattributed newspaper article
that overeacts and jumps to conclusion, because none of them
have bothered to read the posted article critically....

They do read the juicy yellow journalism headline, however.

Sometimes the headline is directly from the article,
and sometimes it is from one of the Obama distractors
who peddle their wares right here at this site.

Then you get the "What Change?" reactionary posts
from the reading posers,
until finally one poster comes along
who actually goes to the link and reads the entire article,
and debunks the credibility of the source, what was actually written,
etc....


Sad state.

[watrwefitinfor]

56. "because none of them have bothered to read the posted article critically.... "

In many cases they have. Often it seems clear that they have gone searching for just such an article to post here. Or perhaps someone sends it out every morning with the rest of their daily Anti-Obama Talking Points to bring to DU and/or wherever else the little varmints post.

It is amazing to me (or maybe not) how many of those chiming in to try to discredit Obama were doing the exact same thing, often using the exact same words (So this is Change?)during the primaries. And they can be found on every thread like this, over and over, the same ones, day after day. They always seem to find these threads. It's almost like a conspiracy. Nah, couldn't be, could it?

Distractors? More like Disruptors. And of course then the chorus chimes in. Including all the little newbie Disruptors who it seems came to DU for just this purpose. (Note the one above from a poster with only 8 posts.)

Wat

[wroberts189]

66. I see I am not alone in thinking this ..it took me a while to see it though . nt

[FreakinDJ]

24. Its more the "Running with it"

They are purposefully trying to take down Obama's popularity. Doing their best to clip his wings.

I think a president this popular just scares the shit out of the Corp Power Structure.

[underpants]

69. Thank you. Down thread it is noted that this was denied on MTP

which is of course why this was written by the NYT-for the Sunday show pablum

[AndyTiedye]

25. Who is Offering These "Gold-Plated" Policies to Employees?

Everywhere I look, copayments are going up, and benefits going down.

[OhioChick]

29. You're not kidding. n/t

[pecwae]

59. If you ever find the 'gold plating'

would you mind posting it? I'd like to see where it exists as well.

[AndyTiedye]

82. Pyrite Policies are Popular

They look like gold until you file a claim.

[nvme]

32. The Media

Remember how the media claimed that Hillary could potentially win? Remember how the media said that Palin could give us trouble? Isn't this the same media that fell in line to Bush's drumbeat to war? Doesn't this same media thrive with controversies? I think the times should be more responsible. According to the post all options are available. Hell we could even be struck by an asteroid too. I see a desperate attempt to create news where there is none.

[Downwinder]

34. Are you going to tax someone because they have a heart attack?

It is unworkable BS.

[FrenchieCat]

36. It's McCain's BS, and the New York Time's way of

getting you pissed.

Is it working?

[Downwinder]

37. I was born pissing. n/t

[FrenchieCat]

42. So the issue is more how to aim in the right direction, it would seem.....

[Mithreal]

44. There should be a balance in writing the title of an op.

We need honesty. This was more of a test for DU'ers to go to the original story and not assume the excerpt was even relevant to the discussion.

[amandabeech]

45. The Furman, Geithner and Orszag quotes were pretty bad.

The President needs other advisers, at the very least.

[pam4water]

46. Just when I thought he was starting to make sense again.

[FrenchieCat]

47. What did he "say" in this article? I see no quotes, not attributions,

no named sources.

Do you? :shrug:

[pam4water]

90. I want to say it the NYT but that don't mean what it used to. I saw a thing yesterday on CNN

about a possible pay roll tax holiday. Which is kind of going the opposite direction. I dunno if people are just pulling stuff out of their asses or the administration is that all over the place.

[w4rma]

48. Americans are being killed by the HMOs and now they want to pile taxes on top of those premiums?(nt)

[Dumak]

50. If done right, could be a good thing

Determine the cost of minimal coverage, under Obama's plan, and make that portion non-taxable. Anything above that gets added to the person's taxable income. I don't see the problem here, as long as we have a progressive tax schedule.

[Downwinder]

52. How would you determine the cost of minimal coverage?

Group plans vary by the size, location and make up the group.

[Warren Stupidity]

74. 'minimal coverage'.

Yes indeed lets make sure that universal healthcare is shitty healthcare. A fine idea. After all, with the trillions we spend on wars and bailouts for billionaires, we certainly cannot afford French-style healthcare. No, let's aim for the bottom.

[caseymoz]

51. I think it's just maneuvering.

It is totally out of character that Repubs would put forward a tax to solve anything, even if I know "the Maverick" made this proposal during the campaign, he is called "the Maverick," after all. Even if it hurts the lower and middle class more. Yet, I know that most Congressional Democrats won't go for this either, and Obama has sworn against it.

The fact is, I think Obama already has the plan he wants to put through, though not in all details. The problem is, he can't go forward with it while the economy is so critical. Any discussion right now isn't substantial and is more to figure out who stands where, while Republicans try to attack.

[Wetzelbill]

53. I'll believe it when I see it

I think Obama is "open" to it like he's open to discussing just about anything. That's about as far as it will get, I hope.

[lonestarnot]

54. I have never once heard Mr. President say any such thing, therefore, I do not believe this and call

bullshit.

[and-justice-for-all]

55. Questionable and highly unlikely...nt

[Vinca]

57. If this would encourage people to buy into single payer, I'm all for it.

Besides . . . why is it fair for 1 person to get $12,000 worth of healthcare benefits while the poor slob at the next job, who makes the same salary, has to buy his own health insurance? There needs to be a level playing field. In any case, unless I see words coming directly from President Obama's mouth, I don't believe it.

[TomClash]

60. NO

Both the President and the Congress will face a strong anti-Democratic tide if they tax health care benefits. This is a ridiculous proposal.

[freemarketer6]

67. Don't know if this true or not, but if it is, it will be my end in the

Obama adventure, and it will officially place him in lame duck status, imo. It won't affect us for a couple years, as my wife's employer pays for her and my health insurance. Taxing health benefits will take a couple years to get passed. Next comes medicare and the dehumanizing process begins. So we are going to tax health care, eliminate deductions for charity for those making over $250,000, and so on and so forth... Change, yeah right. Oh, and when the goverment starts getting into the health care business, health care will become a horror story. You think it's bad now? Wait until you go to the clinic and wait in a 4-hour line, like with SS benefits to have little Johnny's broken arm attended to. Don't take a mental giant to see what's coming down the pike.

[Divine Discontent]

77. you SOUND like....

a reformed Republican who got his ass handed to him by B*sh's 8 horrible years like all the other millions. If you're not, well then buck up, young Johnny! This, 1, hasn't happened, 2, he said he wouldn't tax them numerous times, 3, you're listening to the MSM, 4, make it sound like he's done horrible by saying "will be my end in the Obama adventure and it will officially place him in lame duck status" - you OBVIOUSLY haven't watched all that he has changed since he got not even two months ago...

I saw what was coming down the pike when you first started your attack.

[freemarketer6]

92. You sound like a demagogue in training. And don't ascribe

thoughts, actions, ideation, etc. to me, based on some kind of pretend BBS intuition. I've been a Democrat longer than you've been alive, I'd wager. I gave the max to Obama and voted for him. I have been severely disappointed with some of the directions he's taken. He varies much further, he loses me.

[Divine Discontent]

93. in being a Dem for 40 years - you should not be so effected by the MSM bullshit is what I point out

and, I was very much against (President) Obama in the early primaries, but I really see some significant social, environmental, and military changes compared to B*sh. However, he is not 100% what I hoped for, especially with the terror trials. But the alternative was purely asinine. Okay, back to my demagoguery, and you go back to your reactionary upset tone over something he has said repeatedly he wouldn't do. I don't trust the MSM - I've learned they're full of crap.

[firedupdem]

98. That same poster said President Obama's ratings are falling and

only rasmussen can be trusted. Gallup is being bought off for higher approval ratings. We all know who lives and breathes rasmussen.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

68. Denied by Christina Romer on MTP. nt

[underpants]

70. Getting it on the Sunday morning shows was clearly the purpose of this nt

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

71. Aka Harry & Louise 2, Healthcare Bugaloo

[Warren Stupidity]

73. Fuck that.

This is the change we voted for?

Who the hell is Obama listening to?

[jody]

75. Obama adviser: insurance taxes not off the table

Obama adviser: insurance taxes not off the table

QUOTE
WASHINGTON (AP) — One of President Barack Obama's leading economic advisers says the White House is opposed to taxing health insurance. But Christina Romer is not ruling it out.

She heads the Council of Economic Advisers and says the administration would not rule out taxing health benefits. The New York Times reported Sunday that the administration is considering such a move.

As a candidate, Obama opposed such taxes and called them "a multi-trillion dollar tax hike." Romer says the president remains opposed. But when she was pushed on its during a talk show appearance, she said nothing was being taken off the table.
END QUOTE

Nothing is off the table until Obama goes before the voters and says "I will veto any bill that taxes health care benefits."

[antigop]

78. Yep. You got it. And look at the Senate support for Wyden's proposal. n/t

[Imperialism Inc.]

83. Did you read the rest of what you posted? He is still OPPOSED, not

in favor of, eliminating the exemption.

This is a negotiating position nothing more. An attempt to bring everyone in to the process.

[flyarm]

84. Christina Romer said the same thing on MTP this morning!

but don't hold your breath waiting for an apology!

[liberalsince1968]

99. Fuckity fuck fuck fuck. Either it's not off the table or it is. So which is it?

Why even BRING IT UP, if it's OFF the table?

[NYC Liberal]

100. Why don't you bold "THE PRESIDENT REMAINS OPPOSED"?

or "when she was pushed."

All that is is an advisor playing nice. Everyone says "nothing is off the table" (except Pelosi, but I digress) even if they are set in what they're gonna do. Bush said the same about Iraq when we know he was going to invade no matter what.

[antigop]

76. Here's why this is troubling..if you want a single-payer solution

From the Washington Post article in another thread by cal04
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x432398
It references a Washington Post article:

In recent weeks, however, Sen. Max Baucus (D-Mont.), chairman of the tax-writing Finance Committee, has repeatedly advocated changing tax laws to include employer benefits, arguing that it makes sense to fund the health-care changes by sucking cash out of the existing system. Meanwhile, 13 other senators -- from both sides of the aisle -- have signed on to a plan for universal coverage that includes a tax on employer-provided benefits.

"I think it's extremely important from a credibility standpoint to show the American people that you're making savings in the enormous sums now being spent on health care before you go out and ask them for billions of dollars more," said Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.), one of the sponsors of that proposal. "And I don't think I'm the only senator who feels that way."

So far, administration officials have been careful not to endorse the idea, which Obama blasted as a major tax increase last year after Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) made it the centerpiece of his presidential campaign's health plan. But the president hasn't slammed the door on it, either.

This week, White House budget director Peter Orszag said taxing employer benefits was among several ideas that "most firmly should remain on the table." White House economic adviser Jason Furman called for an end to the so-called "employer exclusion" before he joined the administration. Meanwhile, some congressional Democrats say the White House has signaled that Obama would accept a tax on employer benefits as long as he didn't have to propose it himself.

Wyden is a sponsor of a Senate proposal that has 12 other Senators signing onto from both sides of the aisle. We have yet to have a Senate version of HR 676 (Medicare for All).

I would urge everyone to follow Wyden's proposal closely. His bill has been out for some time. Do not underestimate him or his bill.

[TBF]

80. I've got a better idea. Let's tax rich people and corporations.

Enough with regressive taxes on basic services.

[Egnever]

85. Obama administration is open to clubbing babies to shrink the health care costs

After all they said nothing is off the table right?

Its amazing how many people here fall for this crap.

[ohheckyeah]

86. I'm getting pretty tired of the

giving in one hand and taking it back with the other.

Doing taxes this year I found that employee expenses and tax preparation fees are now subject to the must be over 2% of your adjust gross income rule.

We get a tax break and then have tax credits taken away.

[indepat]

87. 'pukes can be counted on to vote in lock-step for every regressive tax that can be dreamed up by

either side of the aisle. :P

[Zuiderelle]

88. GOOD! Then everyone can pay the same taxes I pay for domestic partner insurance.

I've been paying taxes on the imputed income of the price of the benefit that my employer pays for a while. Let all Americans experience what gay Americans have been experiencing, and maybe they'll start to understand what we've been complaining about.

Finally, a step toward equality. Odd direction to go, but if it starts to even things out, I'm completely ok with it.

[underpants]

94. Interesting I have to say I had never considered that

thanks

[Zuiderelle]

95. Thanks

And sorry I killed your thread. :)

[EndElectoral]

89. Obama railed against this during the campaign. He can't be seriously considering this!

[mvd]

96. Unfortunately we are going to get a put-together proposal..

that tweaks rather than offers pure change. Obama knows that a plan constructed behind closed doors or by himself will meet with resistance everywhere. But supporting this isn't necessary IMO.

[DiverDave]

97. Lies, don't believe them

and there ARE new folks that seem to always agree that things are bad and getting worse.

Hopefully they will get what they deserve, and soon.