26,000 CA teachers to get pink slips

[dynasaw]

Source: ABC

"The state Department of Education estimates that preliminary pink slips will have been handed to 26,500 teachers by the Sunday cutoff - two-and-a-half times as many as were issued last year. . .Because of the state's less-than-rosy economic outlook, California's 1,000 K-12 school districts have been instructed to absorb more than $8 billion in funding cuts over the next year."

Read more: http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/state&id=6710423

---

So much for president Obama's intention to improve American education. Merit pay? Hell there isn't even enough money for regular pay. Thank you Arnold and Repubs for bankrupting the Golden State. As for all the recent "teachers are evil" attacks that have started to float around, is this punishment enough for teachers? The victims in this mess--it's the kids in case no one's noticed.

[my2sense]

1. Yes the children

will pay the price for this nonsense. And those same children lacking a decent education will be running the country in the next 25-30 years. Scary stuff.

[autorank]

53. Where's their bailout? I guess bankers are more important. n/t

[depakid]

86. Ask the so called "moderates" in the Senate

who removed $40 billion+ in federal revenue sharing that could well have saved many of these jobs.

[Stargazer09]

2. What the heck happened to California???

Didn't it used to be a prosperous state? It certainly has enough people and enough industry (Hollywood, Silicon Valley, tourism, etc.) to make it prosperous.

I'm not a fan of higher taxes, but I really don't understand why Californians aren't paying enough in property and/or sales taxes to cover the basic needs of the state. What happened?


:shrug:

[droidamus2]

5. I'll tell you what happened

It is a little thing called 'Proposition 13'. This proposition was passed around the late 1970's or early 1980's (can't remember exactly). What Prop 13 did was limit the ability of the state to raise property taxes and was one of the first big 'anti-tax' measures to pass. Prop 13 was sold to the public as a way to protect the elderly from being taxed out of their homes by rising property taxes. The mechanism used was to limit the amount taxes could be raised to a percent or two a year unless the property was sold at which time it would be reaccessed and the property tax would be updated. Sounds good as protection for the elderly until you find out that it also applies to a lot business and other real estate. Since property taxes are the main mechanism for be school revenue as the population rose the amount raised from property taxes did not keep up with need. Also, with less funds the school infrastructure has deteriorated. Along with that it seems like every time there is a budget problem the state funds for K-12 get cut (typically passing the problem to a lower level of government) and the fees for the college and university system are raised. Thus California has gone from having one of the best education systems in the country to well down the list.

[badgervan]

6. You Hit the Nail on the Head

... until Prop 13 is repealed, Cal will be destroying it's rich tradition of being ahead of the rest of the country; of progressing instead of regressing. Always remember this: the more ignorant you can keep the general population, the more votes are created for the repub side. Ignorance breeds fear and votes for the Party that claims they will "protect" us. Scary to watch Cal destroy itself... and Ahnold is enabler nr. uno. What a huge disappointment he has been... he has no clue; none. Reminds me of Reagan.... good in front of the cameras, but absolutely anti-little guy.

[Skink]

19. Texas passed a property tax freeze for the senior population.

Meanwhile the sales tax is know almost 10 percent. And funding for anything now comes down to raising the sales tax.

[WriteDown]

20. Sales tax is 8.25%

Wouldn't that be closer to 8% than 10%?

[Skink]

21. 8.75 in San Antonio.

[WriteDown]

22. Still closer to 9%....

How is that possible though. Here is a breakdown of sales taxes in Texas.

http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/sales/

[Skink]

23. Here's a breakdown a 6500 hundred dollar car costs 7000 with tax.

in San Antonio.

[WriteDown]

24. Totally different issue...

The new car tax in Texas is actually only 6.5% and is lower than standard sales tax. The purchase of a used car requires you to pay taxes on what the car is worth and not the purchase price. Sales tax in Texas is still capped at 8.25%. Some more info.

http://www.kcbd.com/Global/story.asp?S=5462363

[Skink]

27. I know for a fact as a cashier SA is 8.75. Austin is 8.85.

It does vary by legislative session. I've seen it go down periodically. My point was prop 13 made it's way to Texas disguised as a protective measure for folks that are in an upper tax bracket.

[WriteDown]

31. It is not though....

Sales tax are capped at 8.25% in Texas. Here is the actual law, http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/sales/ . If you are working somewhere that is charging over 8.25%, then they are over-taxing illegaly.

Those who demonize prop 13 act like no property in CA has changed hands recently which is strange considering the amount of house flipping that was going on in CA up until fairly recently. See post 18 for a good breakdown of the myriad of causes of CA's woes and post 26 for a different perspective.

[Stargazer09]

42. I never paid less than 8.5% sales tax in Texas

Whenever I visited, we were usually charged 8.75%.

If it's capped, then the entire state is breaking the law. Or finding a loophole.

[WriteDown]

43. Nope, its capped at 8.25%.

edited to remove non-working link.

[Stargazer09]

47. I understand that you feel that the tax is capped at 8.25%

However, I PAID 8.75% every time we visited Texas.

Believe what you will, but I was CHARGED 8.75%. I'm sorry your experience was not the same, or that you think that all of Texas is only charging 8.25%, but that was NOT my experience.

[WriteDown]

49. This is not an issue that is up for debate.

The sales tax is capped at 8.25%. Or are we not to believe the actual tax law? Its not a matter of individual experience when it comes to tax laws. It is much more likely that your recollection is faulty.

http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/sales/

[Stargazer09]

50. LOL

Thanks for telling me that my memory is bad. It's not. Looking at the receipt for my husband's iPod right now. Sales tax was 8.75%, and I even did the math myself to get the same answer.

I'm not the only person telling you that the sales tax is higher than 8.25% in Texas. You are just making yourself look like a fool. But you can keep on believing your story. I'm not interested in playing anymore.

Good day to you!

[WriteDown]

54. Please find one single link or ANY info whatsoever

showing that sales tax in a Texas city or county is above 8.25%.

I will probably waiting a long time for this.

[whopis01]

95. Something is wrong if you are paying more than 8.125% in San Antonio

I'm not arguing with you about what it says on your receipt, but the total sales tax rate in San Antonio is 8.125%.

http://ecpa.cpa.state.tx.us/taxrates/FinalRates.jsp;jsessionid=0000xsWJUVp9t-7qgqzfrDCQSzN:-1

Out of curiosity, I went to Best Buy's site and put a TV in my cart and had it calculate the sales tax (They do it based on where you are having the item delivered) and it came out to 8.125%.

But you are certainly not the only one claiming the 8.75% rate - so it seems like something is weird about this.

[Speaker]

117. The STATE share of the tax is capped...

The local municipality is allowed to tack on an additional percentage.

Most areas have the tax at 8.5%.

"Sales tax are capped at 8.25% in Texas. Here is the actual law, http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/sales / . If you are working somewhere that is charging over 8.25%, then they are over-taxing illegaly. "

[WriteDown]

123. Incorrect...

"Texas cities, counties, transit authorities and special purpose districts have the option of imposing an additional local sales tax for a combined total of state and local taxes of 8 1/4% (.0825)"

[Stargazer09]

51. I agree

It is higher in practice than the "sales tax cap" says it should be.

[WriteDown]

56. Its so obvious...

Retailers charge extra and then pocket the over-tax. I hear the real sales tax rate in CA is only 0.25% and shops just over-tax and keep the rest. :eyes:

[mbperrin]

28. Toward the bottom of the page you link, you'll see that if all special districts get

the max, that sales tax in Texas could be 12-3/4%.
Rate Details and Other Information
Rates
State - 6 1/4% (.0625)
City - 1/4% (.0025) - 2% (.02), depending on local rate.
County - 1/2% (.005) - 1.5% (.015), depending on local rate.
Transit - 1/4 % (.0025) - 1% (.01), depending on local rate.
Special Purpose Districts - 1/8% (.00125) - 2% (.02), depending on local rate.


Add up state, city, county, transit, and special purpose districts. 6.25 + 2 + 1.5 + 1 + 2 = 12.75

[WriteDown]

32. Its capped at 8.25%

"Texas cities, counties, transit authorities and special purpose districts have the option of imposing an additional local sales tax for a combined total of state and local taxes of 8 1/4% (.0825)"

[mbperrin]

85. I would invite you to visit the great state capital of Austin and beg you

to make a purchase subject to sales tax. After paying 8-3/4%, I would invite you to then proceed to the office of the state comptroller and to file your complaint.

Let me know how that works out for ya.

[WriteDown]

88. Once again...

Find one link or ANY evidence whatsoever that sales tax in Texas can exceed 8.25%. Here's the law in case your confused.

http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/sales/faq_collect.html

3. What tax rate do I use?

The Texas state sales and use tax rate is 6.25%, but local taxing jurisdictions (cities, counties, special purpose districts, and transit authorities) may also impose sales and use tax up to 2% for a total maximum combined rate of 8.25%.<\b> You will be required to collect both state and local sales an use tax. For information about the tax rate for a specific area, see Local Sales and Use Tax Rate Information.

For information on collecting and reporting local sales and use tax, ask for publication 94-105 "Guidelines for Collecting Local Sales and Use Tax" (PDF, 9.74MB) For a list of local tax rates ask for publication 96-132 "Texas Sales and Use Tax Rates." We also provide tax rate cards for all combined tax rates.


Epic Fail. :rofl:

[mbperrin]

89. Okay. Don't get off your ass and see how it is out here.

That's OK. You probably believe AIG can't stop paying bonuses to its execs, either, right?

And since the President officially declared Mission Accomplished on that long ago day, and there are many links to it, you bought that, too.

Oh, and check the tax table cards available there at your own link - you'll see they go to 10-1/4%. Odd, eh?

[WriteDown]

90. So you've got nuthin' huh?

I just asked for a single piece of evidence and you supplied an enormous goose egg. You'd figure there would be something on the WWW that would support your outlandish claim.

Way to throw in a couple of strawmen there.

Still having trouble reading?

"The Texas state sales and use tax rate is 6.25%, but local taxing jurisdictions (cities, counties, special purpose districts, and transit authorities) may also impose sales and use tax up to 2% for a total maximum combined rate of 8.25%."

I do have access to some SUPER SECRET information that has informed me that California's true sales tax is only 0.25% and that evil shop owners actually charge higher amounts to really stick it to the people of California. There's even a key on the cash register labeled "overtax." We need people to open their eyes to the REAL sales tax rates. :eyes: :rofl:

[raccoon]

122. That seems to be the shape of things to come. It really pisses me off,

because the sales tax is regressive.

[YvonneCa]

9. Prop 13 did set a foundation for what's happening. But Enron...

...was the nail in the coffin. JMHO.

[shanti]

77. yes, and we all know who was behind that one!

:mad: :grr:

[YvonneCa]

10. Prop 13 did set a foundation for what's happening. But Enron...

...was the nail in the coffin. JMHO.

[slackmaster]

25. In spite of the Proposition 13 limits on property tax rates,

High real estate values offset the limit. Most people pay significant property taxes in California. Mine is up to almost $2,000 per year.

Add to that THE HIGHEST personal income taxes, plus among the highest sales, corporate, and fuel taxes in the USA, the state of California's tax revenue per capita (which of course includes people who pay no taxes) is about 10th in the USA.

From the perspective of a working middle class person, we are more heavily taxed than people in any other state. What's really happened to California is decades of undisciplined spending.

[Tab]

29. $2000 a year???

I'd love to pay $2000 a year. I don't know what your property is worth, but I pay at least triple that in New Hampshire. And if I owned the home I used to own, in the town I used to be in, that'd probably be pushing $12,000 a year.

Don't let anyone tell you New Hampshire is tax-free. It needs revenue to run on just like every other state. It just makes an attempt to hide the taxes, but you pay them one way or another. Property taxes, or annual car registrations (could easily be $250 to $400, if it was a new enough vehicle - not brand-new, just late-model). The money has to come from somewhere.

[slackmaster]

30. "The money has to come from somewhere" is exactly correct

California gets it primarily from personal income taxes and sales taxes.

On my adjusted gross income of $63,159 last year, I paid $8,199 in federal taxes, and $2,712 in state income tax, in addition to the just under $2K in property tax plus all the state managed to extract in fuel and sales taxes.

Don't let anyone tell you New Hampshire is tax-free. It needs revenue to run on just like every other state. It just makes an attempt to hide the taxes, but you pay them one way or another.

Texas is a prime example. How many times have you heard a Texan brag about having no state income tax? But ask what they pay in property tax on their homes, and they get very quiet.

Proposition 13 bashers love to say that it set the stage for our fiscal situation, but they will never talk about the conditions that led to its passage. It may have set the stage, but someone built that stage.

[WriteDown]

34. You nailed it...

Property taxes here in TX are outrageous. Probably the best thing about not having a state income tax though is not having to worry about the state income tax portion on your tax returns though. :)

[Tab]

73. That's the only benefit, and it's a small one

I live in a town whose taxes are half what it was at the other place I mentioned, even though the house is valued at twice what the other one was, so it's effectively the same taxes.

The problem - one of them - was I knew the other one was under-assessed (and I moved out in 2002) - and at that tax rate, I wouldn't be able to continue living in it to my old age.

And that's the problem - I have no problem paying income tax - I mean, I don't like it any more than anyone else, but it would be proportional to my income. And that's the problem - at the tax rate of the other place (or even this place) I'll have to pay those high rates whether or not I have any income at all. Could I afford to live there 30 or 40 years from now? I can't imagine how.

New Hampshire, and presumably Texas, and what's the other one - Oregon? - have similar issues. I can't speak for the other two, but here the whole school funding issue is based on property taxes. Sounds good, right? Except a few things happen...

1) The town I used to live in and the town immediately next to it are roughly the same size in population, so the school needs should be the same. However, the one I was in was more of a blue collar (former textile industry) town. Low property values. So they have to charge a higher tax rate just to get a minimum school, and it wasn't even that great a school (people were nice, but infrastructure sucked). The next town over had a destination (tourist) lake, the property values were triple, since it was in demand and had a lot of second homes (meaning, they were contributing to the tax base but not drawing on the resources (school)), so they had a tax rate of nearly a 1/3 of the first town and they still had money to burn, and a gorgeous school. They got a reputation for low taxes and great schools, making them more in demand.

2) At the same time, the town I was in was being vacated by people - first, it wasn't a destination resort town, second it was getting a reputation for some of the highest taxes in the state, and having a crappy school as well, so as people would put their home up for sale, property values dropped even more, causing the taxes to need to be even higher, perpetuating the cycle. So you end up with two towns next to each other, same acreage, roughly, same population, but one - because of an additional asset (a destination lake) has wonderful schools and ultra-low taxes, and the other has lousy schools and super-high taxes.

3) The other thing that happens is that you have people who have a piece of property - often lakefront - that their parents bought for maybe $5,000 back in the 1950's as a little getaway with a small lakefront cabin on it, planning to hand it down to their kids and keep it in the family. Well, now, that little cabin on an acre of lakefront is now valued at $800,000 or more, because lakefront property is so limited, and now the "family camp", meant to stay in the family to be enjoyed for generations to come, is racking up maybe $40,000 a year in property taxes - maybe more - and the family has to sell it because they can't afford to keep it, because of the property tax system. They don't use the resources of the area - no school, fire, or police - it's just a place they'd go to on weekends in the summer - but it costs them upwards of $50,000 a year to keep it up. So they have to sell it. I'd love to have a lakefront, but how would I possibly pay those taxes now, much less 30 years from now? I couldn't.

4) New Hampshire (and I grew up in Vermont, so maybe I'm biased, but I've lived in NH for nearly 20 years now) effectively whores itself out trying to keep it's tax-free appearance. Property taxes aside, and maybe I haven't traveled the States quite enough yet, but when was the last time you were in a state that has state liquor stores on the frickin' Interstate? All liquor is sold only by the state (except beer and wine), and it's a major money maker. The only thing you find on the Interstate are rest areas - for a restaurant you have to get off the Interstate - and the rest areas are either two kinds - just bathrooms and vending machines and a chance to get warm, or they're major liquor stores. What other state promotes liquor sales on the highway? Well, NH does it because they get the revenue, and they get the skiers in the winter and visitors in the summer, and they all have to travel the Interstate to get up from Boston at any reasonable speed, so they put these major liquor stores on the highway (and, of course, strategically place them just north of the toll booth to make anyone from the south go through the toll booth before hitting the store).

Further, they do other - in my opinion, nothing against the sports per se - cheesy endeavors. In Vermont you have antique car shows and oh-so-cute country towns. In NH, you get Motorcycle Week, NASCAR racing, gambling, high-speed boat races. Vermont is more genteel, NH is more grab-the-jetski-or-the-snowmobile-or-ATV and tear up the woods or lakes. Why? Because there's revenue, I assume, in gambling taxes, certainly there is in Food and Lodging.

When I retire, if that ever happens, I'm moving back to Vermont, because I certainly can't afford to live here.

[droidamus2]

39. Not necessarily..

I found this link for comparative state property tax rates as a percentage of personal income, http://www.wistax.org/facts/index.html|Property Tax Table>, for 2006 and California ranks #36. I don't claim California should shoot for being #1 but you basically get what you pay for. If you want high quality education then you have to pay for it just like everything else. I grew up in California so I know it is not the state with the lowest individual tax by far but if you want the infrastructure and resources to support the business climate in such a large state the money has to come from somewhere. It isn't always that there is too much spending but that it isn't being spent on things that have long term benefits to the general public like top flight schools. As in the federal budget a lot of the spending is there to basically buy votes.

[slackmaster]

59. Property tax is only one component of the state's revenue

The majority of which comes from personal income tax.

http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/ind_inc.html

[badgervan]

76. Exactly...

... if you want an educated population, which benefits all in the end, you have to set priorities in your state. Compare the southern states educational systems with the rest of the country. I've lived most of my life in Wisconsin ( great educational system ), and lived for shorter periods in California, D.C., and the panhandle of Florida ( more like an extension of southern Alabama). The difference is scary... to this day, I can't believe how ignorant, and defiantly proud of that fact, so many southerners are. Not all, so don't go nuts... but there is a noticable and strong difference. California's residents should revoke Prop 13 to save their dying educational system.... and it is this Prop 13 that is doing the damage, no matter how much you want to blame it on "spending". Priorities are important.

[slackmaster]

92. San Diego County property tax revenues will be increasing by $91 million next fiscal year

County assessors are raising property taxes by the statutory 2% maximum, in spite of falling property values.

...The county assessor's office predicts that property taxes will increase this year for 75 percent of homes and other properties. That would produce a projected $91 million in additional revenue to the county, cities, school districts and other jurisdictions. “We don't have a choice,” said Jeff Olson, chief of county property assessment services.

The mandate comes from Proposition 13, the 1978 tax-limitation measure, and subsequent regulations. The state initiative, passed when skyrocketing inflation on home prices pushed property taxes beyond many household budgets, sets the tax at roughly 1 percent of the purchase price and increases it by up to 2 percent annually.

The increase is based on a measure of overall inflation, excluding real estate. While home prices dropped 24.4 percent last year, Olson said the inflation rate was 3.5 percent. So the 2 percent increase will kick in again this year. “We've only had a handful of years in the past 20 where we didn't go up 2 percent,” Olson said, the lowest being 1.11 percent in 1998. Olson said the Franchise Tax Board, which is conducting its usual audit of the assessor's office, does not allow individual assessors to vary from the official adjustment.

With an overall 2 percent increase, county Treasurer-Tax Collector Dan McAllister expects to send out bills totaling about $4.6 billion this fall, $91 million more than last year. The increase last year was 4.6 percent, higher than 2 percent because of reassessments on properties that changed hands. “I think we are on autopilot as per Proposition 13,” McAllister said. “Until that is overturned in part or in whole, we're bound by it. I think, frankly, in our lifetimes, that's not likely. It's just not going to go away.”...

Property tax - Up 2%

Property value - Down 24%

County tax revenue - Up a little

Salary - Up 0%

License to educate knee-jerk Proposition 13 bashers on DU forums - Priceless

[caseymoz]

96. Something is terribly wrong with the Prop 13 formula, then.

I mean if tax rates are going up while property values drop, Prop 13 just wasn't written with falling housing values in mind. Now that you have them, so some problems with Prop 13 are now evident. Also, something here just doesn't fit. Where the hell is all the money going? I can't believe it's on the up-and-up. What's indicated is widespread corruption probably including at least some of the auditors. You need some investigative reporters to go in there and follow the money.

In other words, though something had to be done, Prop 13 wasn't it. If there's corruption in government, people aren't going to stop stealing because taxes revenues had been capped. If it's not stamped out, expenditures are going to inflate every year as the corruption spreads. Prop 13 just drove the government into deficits, which had to be covered through issuing bonds. Thus, it assured higher revenue requirements as the bonds matured.

Now, when did Prop 8 pass? 1978. Now what year is this? 2009. Look at that, the year after the first 30-year notes matured. I have bad news for you: this is going to get worse, much worse. I expect the State and many of its municipalities to default on their bonds. Expect no government in the future. Be thankful that Prop 13 solved all your problems back in the '70s!

Prop 13 set an awful precedent and was key to bringing in that other awful precedent, the Reagan presidency. The results also were that Republicans were elected on an anti-tax platforms throughout the nation, but including in States where over-taxation had never been a problem. My State, Missouri capped it's taxes, when it ranked 48 on taxes per household. Republicans made their reputations for fighting big government doing that.

So, what I see is that the problem couldn't have been tackled on just the taxation end. That's probably true of the rest of the country. So, I put it to you that Prop 13 was a knee-jerk reaction that didn't get to the heart of the problem, and should be bashed as such.

[slackmaster]

99. Tax rates are permitted to go up 2% per year by Prop. 13

But it also has a provision to protect people whose home value drops below assessed value. If that happens, you need only to provide a small list of sales comparables to get your tax lowered.

Prop 13 just drove the government into deficits, which had to be covered through issuing bonds.

State and county governments have failed to learn to discipline their spending in spite of the imposed restraint of Proposition 13.

So, I put it to you that Prop 13 was a knee-jerk reaction that didn't get to the heart of the problem, and should be bashed as such.

That's a valid point of view, but as the San Diego County Assessor said in the article I cited, Prop. 13 isn't going away.

[caseymoz]

101. I should educate myself more about Prop 13 and its provisions

But I will add, failure to discipline the spending of state and county governments, would indicate that there was corruption, that the prices that they paid for doing things was far too high. Private contractors likely overcharged because wherever the public and private economies intersect the private side jacking up prices will always be a problem, but on the government side, there's also probably cronyism and larceny. Whatever rake-off there is will be built into the expenditures. To discipline spending, you have to minimize this.

Lastly, you're probably right that Prop 13 isn't going away, but California might. As all those 30 year bonds continue to mature, it can't possibly tax the revenues that will be needed just to maintain a minimum government. That would be caused by Prop 13, which was a knee-jerk reaction and a half-assed solution that didn't get to the heart of the trouble.

[badgervan]

104. Well Now....

... isn't that what I've been arguing? Prop 13 is the cause; the other problems are the effects.

[caseymoz]

107. delete

[slackmaster]

108. The problem I see with your analysis is that it doesn't go back far enough

Proposition 13 may be a cause, but it is also a symptom. If you go no further back in time to look at the conditions that led to Proposition 13 you have failed to find the ROOT cause of the problem.

Proposition 13 did not evolve spontaneously from a vacuum. It's not the product of people becoming greedy or taking the attitude "I've got mine, fuck everybody else" as some have portrayed it. It was an understandable reaction to a failure of counties and the state to excercise basic fiscal discipline. The fact that they have to fight about the budget every year demonstrates that the problem is not solved. The legislature has not as a body learned the lesson yet.

I'm hoping that the implementation of Proposition 11 (IIRC) that changes the way districts are drawn will finally put an end to the present system of "safe" districts and apostolic succession in the legislature.

Proposing an end to Proposition 13 is a non-starter unless the plan would create a sensible system that protects against the abuses of power that led to Proposition 13.

[badgervan]

103. You Got It....

... it's Prop 13 that's leading to so many good things, like a once-superb educational system, going bye-bye in Cal.

[badgervan]

102. Educate?

You just made my point for me... thanks.

[slackmaster]

109. You seem to be stuck on bashing Proposition 13, and I really don't understand why

The state has made up the "shortfall" that Prop. 13 created by raising personal income taxes, sales taxes, vehicle fees, and fuel taxes.

The problem is not a lack of revenue.

[badgervan]

111. Evidently Not....

... or your state wouldn't be going down the toilet. Of course other things contribute, but you shut off a method of raising money in addition to the other ways. All I know is Cal never had this severe a problem before Prop 13... and now it does, and is getting worse.

[Stargazer09]

40. Your property taxes are much lower than mine!

I pay $4700 per year on a $195,000 home, and I'm living in one of the smallest homes in my area. My neighbors are paying up to $8000 per year. (We live in Nebraska.)

[slackmaster]

60. How are your personal income and sales tax rates?

:hi:

http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/ind_inc.html

BTW - My property tax is based on what I paid for my home - $141,000 in 1994, incremented by up to 2% annually, plus local assessments for schools, pest abatement, etc.

[Stargazer09]

65. Sales tax is 7%

And I have no idea of income taxes here, since I'm an Oregon resident and my military pay is taxable by Oregon, not Nebraska. I heard the taxes here were higher than most states; many of my friends in the military are planning on retiring elsewhere to avoid the income taxes.

We pay 2.5% of our home's assessed value for property taxes.

[U4ikLefty]

119. WAIT!!! If you are an Oregon resident you pay NOTHING in sales tax. n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

62. Mine is up to almost $2,000 per year. - snort!

Not very high, of course that depends on your property value, but we are talking about California, so your property value is likely to be huge. I pay a lot more than that here in tax free New Hampshire.

However you do have state income and sales taxes on top of that.

[slackmaster]

63. About 1/3 of my earned income fell into the top bracket - 9.3% - for 2008

Looking at the Big Picture, blaming Proposition 13 for California's chronic budget problems is a canard.

[barb162]

115. Yes, but CA gets a lot of federal spending

BTW, 2,000 in real estate taxes is very little in my state. I think real estate taxes in CA are amazingly low.

[slackmaster]

124. Personal income tax in your state is a flat 3%, with $2,000 exemptions

For each member of a married couple, and each child.

Please compare that to the rates for California, and then try to tell me a working middle-class person in your state pays more tax than a comparable person in mine.

http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/ind_inc.html

[Stargazer09]

41. I remember the ads for Prop 13 when I was a teenager

Of course, back then, I didn't know anything about politics or property taxes. (My grandmother lived in Cali her entire life, and Mom and I were both born there. I grew up in Oregon, though.)

It makes sense that it ruined the state. I hope the idiots who forced it upon the state are suffering.

[slackmaster]

61. My parents saw their property tax amount quintuple between 1972 and 1977

The San Diego County Assessor kept reassessing every year properties in the more "desirable" areas of the ccounty.

The county charter said at the time that reassessments should be done on average of once every four years. Of course they went after areas where the market value of houses was appreciating fastest. The home was out in the boonies when my mom bought it in 1966. Rapid growth of and around UC San Diego caused a rapid increase in property values.

If you want to label someone as the idiots that brought Proposition 13 onto the state, look no farther than the county governments.

BTW - San Diego County is facing a pension fund problem. They're now talking about implementing a two-tier system, in which new employees get a lot less. They're still screwing up.

[Stargazer09]

64. Like I said

I was just a kid when all of the Prop 13 stuff was going on. I don't pretend to understand, especially since I never owned property in California.

I'm sorry that your mom's house was being taxed so unfairly.

[KansDem]

98. 1979...

I grew up in California and remember Prop.13 quite well. I left California in 1979 to attend graduate school here in Kansas, but I remember the campaign.

I remember one couple who swore up and down that if Prop.13 didn't pass, they'd have to leave California. Well, it passed and the couple immediately bought a second home--in Big Bear Lake.

[barb162]

114. A friend in CA is a teacher and she talks about Prop 13 (1978)

as being the death knell for the schools. Over the years she has talked about how they get worse every year. What's interesting is the lousy schools didn't seem to impact really rising property values where they live, which is the San Fran area. She only teaches in private schools now. They pay about 30% in taxes for the same priced house in my state. I just can't believe how low the property taxes are in CA!

[droidamus2]

121. Rising value doesn't mean rising taxes

That's the problem with Prop 13 all those rising values don't necessarily translate into rising tax revenues. If the homes aren't sold the tax can only go up by 1 or 2 percent a year so the value can sky rocket but the taxes will only slowly rise. As I said in my other post the other big problem is that some of the same idea flows over to business real estate transactions which even further reduces the available revenue. The idea to protect the elderly was good but the proposition should have been written much more narrowly to target only those homes. Prop 13 should at least be amended if not altogether scrapped.

[YvonneCa]

8. Enron. Recall...

...and Arnold.

[Bluenorthwest]

17. Arnold and...

the millions of Californians, including Democrats, who voted for him twice, refused to even put up a fight the second time, and continue to blame Davis for trying to save the state. Over the years since I left, I have asked Californians to take action a few times, to oppose Arnold's second run, Prop 8. In each instance, I got no takers, just Californians explaining to me (a native who lived there until 2004) that CA is just sooooo liberal, so 'Blue' that there was no reason to take action. "Arnold will never win again" or "Why do you lack faith in California on Prop 8? Mark my words, you are WRONG and this state will reject Prop 8 en mass."
Yeah. Complacent, apathetic, self interested voters had noting to do with it. Just Arnold and Enron. Californians are not allowed to vote, or speak out, or demonstrate. Put the blame on Mame, boys.
I hope now that California's zombie class is reviewing their 'net worths' they might see reason to make some noise, take some action, do some work. Democrats in CA elected Arnold, twice. They passed Prop 8. Deal with that, and there might be hope.

[YvonneCa]

36. Wow. A lot of anger coming through that post. Not all...

...California Democrats voted for Arnold. Not all did nothing. I do agree with you that complacency, taking democracy for granted and not doing ones DUTY as CITIZENS gave us Arnold...and Bush, too, for that matter. There's probably been a 'zombie' class in most states in recent years.

[Stargazer09]

45. If they aren't careful

Cali could go to the GOP during an upcoming presidential election. Wouldn't that be a shame? Complacency is an ugly thing.

[Stargazer09]

44. Yeah, I remember Enron having something to do with Cali

What a mess. I just hate seeing California go down the tubes. I spent some of the happiest years of my life there.

[Number_Six]

3. #2 and closing fast....

...down here in wunnerful Mark Sanford's fascist wet dream come true, South Carolina.

The local schools have already announced much the same, teachers to be cut, downsizing, the whole nine yards.

We could sure use that money, Gubnor, but nyahh, stinking fascist Rethugs are just like that.

Anyone need any more clues to why to NEVER vote Rethug???

[dcindian]

4. Every single step by the repukes and their DLC friends are orchestrated to destroy public education

Nationalize the school system now. Before more schools are closed due to these repuke tactics errr... opps... (toe the line) I mean "bad teachers" destroy the whole mess.

[Stargazer09]

46. Of course

Didn't you know that most educated people vote Democrat? So you destroy the educational system to keep people from gaining the education that they need to vote with their brains.

I think that was the entire reason we got saddled with No Child Left Behind.

[Thothmes]

75. What happens if the school systems are nationalized

and the Republicans regain control of the Congress and Presidency.

[Haole Girl]

7. 26,000?

This is very sad news, and it will hurt our country's future that much more.

[msongs]

11. Obama does not have much to do with the CA state budget really nt

[4lbs]

16. True. Governor Ahnold made plans to cut education spending by billions before President Obama took

the oath of office.

Cutting those billions to balance the $42 billion budget shortfall meant cutting thousands of teacher's jobs.

[ohio2007]

57. American Adults Flunk Basic Science (national survey commissioned by the California Academy of Sc )

American Adults Flunk Basic Science
ScienceDaily (Mar. 13, 2009) — Are Americans flunking science? A new national survey commissioned by the California Academy of Sciences and conducted by Harris Interactive® reveals that the U.S. public is unable to pass even a basic scientific literacy test.

snip

Only 53% of adults know how long it takes for the Earth to revolve around the Sun.
Only 59% of adults know that the earliest humans and dinosaurs did not live at the same time.
Only 47% of adults can roughly approximate the percent of the Earth's surface that is covered with water.*
Only 21% of adults answered all three questions correctly.

snip


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090312115133.htm

these same adults were once students.
students of a failed education system ?

[4lbs]

81. CA's school system is one of the worst, thanks to ever decreasing spending per student.

In 1978, CA's public school system (K through 12) was in the top 5 nationally.

Just a decade later, in 1988, it fell all the way to 48th place!

What caused the precipitous drop? Less state tax revenue combined with an increasing population radically changed the education spending per student, and school classes began going from about 25 students per class to as high as 50.

[depakid]

87. In 1978, CA's public school system (K through 12) was in the top 5 nationally.

I'd like to see those stats....

[4lbs]

94. Here are some, especially talking about how CA went from "First to Worst"

PDF Document

"CA's K-12 public schools: How Are They Doing?"
Published 2004

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/2004/RAND_MG186.pdf


CA's Public Schools: From First to Worst
Published 2004

http://www.aypf.org/forumbriefs/2004/fb010804.htm

Regarding a PBS Documentary in 2004 on CA's public school system and how it has performed historically.

[depakid]

100. Thanks!

[slackmaster]

110. "First to Worst" is an excellent documentary

It gives an honest analysis from a variety of viewpoints. I recommend it.

[barb162]

112. Didn't the voters vote for this? Proposition 13 ?

If the mass of voters vote against tax increases for the schools, that's the result.

[tonysam]

12. This Doesn't Mean All of These Teachers or Any of Them

will be laid off. Districts have to do this by a certain time every year.

[earcandle]

13. The more educated the population, the less likely we will be duped by religion and hate mongers.

[Historic NY]

14. No child left behind...thou.

:sarcasm:

[4lbs]

15. Yes, and Bush the Idiot signed the bill without fully funding it.

Just one of the many half-assed things he's done.

Since it's coming into being, it's now about $80 billion underfunded.

President Obama finally made plans to FULLY fund it in his budget and stimulus bill.

[LiveLiberally]

18. I've been following this closely having been raised in CA in a family of teachers....

All of whom are still teaching in CA. PPs are right to focus on Prop. 13, but that's only part of the story.

** Prop. 13 -- the "taxpayer's revolt" -- actually made some sense when it was passed in 1978. (My parents still voted against it, rightly fearing its long term impact) The state had a huge surplus, but California counties -- unlike in many states -- did not routinely lower the mill rate as property values (and tax revenues) rose. The first big CA property value boom in the 70s was taxing people out of their homes.

** Due to the state surplus, the initial impact of Prop 13 was comparatively mild. It is the long term impact that has devastated county revenues & public schools. Communities in coastal and metropolitan areas (the hardest hit by prop 13 tax restrictions) are now overly dependent on state block funds to fund basic services. They are thus often hardest hit by Republican tax policies and budgetary cuts, particularly because coastal areas are disproportionately more Democratic (compared to inland areas).

** All of this hurts most, of course, underprivileged communities. In wealthier districts (such as suburban San Diego where my sister teaches) schools are excellent and well-funded by special levies paid by property homeowners in new (and expensive) developments. Meanwhile, in poorer areas, homes are routinely passed down within families to avoid selling the home (and losing the prop 13 benefits). Property tax revenues have never recovered and neither have the schools.

** Finally, while the great influx of immigrants in the past several decades has contributed greatly to California's economy (they still, despite reforms, make possible the cheap cultivating & harvesting of 40% of the country's fruits and vegetables), their children also make special demands on school districts. And they usually live in precisely the communities where tax revenues are depressed and state block grants are inadequate & subject to partisan politics.

** When I was in elementary school in CA, it had one of the best public school systems in the nation. Now, it's ranked near the bottom (48th by some measurements). As a parent of small children, I'd have to think hard before moving back to my home state.

Very sad.


** edited for typo

[slackmaster]

26. I voted Yes on Proposition 13 and don't regret it

I was 20 years old and could see first-hand the impact of uncontrolled taxation on my parents' family budget.

If it came up for a vote again, I'd not only vote Yes, I'd contribute heavily to the campaign and walk precincts in support of it. I'm paying the price of Proposition 13 by having a good chunk of my income taxed at something like 9.3% by the state (soon to be higher), but in the long run it's worth it to me to know that I won't ever be literally taxed out of house and home.

[LiveLiberally]

52. Unfortunately that is exactly what is happening NOW to many CA families

Prop 13 was an understandable reaction to a untenable situation THAT COULD have been avoided if California had simply adopted mill rate regulations (that would have forced counties to adjust downwards the mill rate as property values and revenues rise. In Wisconsin, for example, property taxes generally GO DOWN for a few years after properties are reassessed upwards because the mill rate is adjusted downwards.)

As it stands, California has an extremely inequitable tax system that is overburdening millions as it continues to protect the few. Special property tax levies easily outweigh prop 13 benefits and many, many families can't afford to buy a home at all. Worst, too many communities are reliant on the state for grants for the most basic of services (public health, police, schools etc...) and thus become political pin balls for a gridlocked political machine in Sacramento.

Prop 13 was a revolt, a cry for a rational and fair tax structure. It was not -- and never meant to be -- a permanent solution. And directly or indirectly, all Californians are paying for the craven failures of Californian politicians -- of ALL political stripes -- to find one.

[caseymoz]

67. The reaction was understandible, but Prop 13 was too big of a hammer.

It was better as a threat to get the State to lower property taxes by showing an ever-growing list of signatures and polls: a "nuclear" option.

[badgervan]

105. Yes You Will....

... the money has to come from somewhere, and joe taxpayer is the easiest source. Unless you're ok with destroying your educational system, public works, etc. Keep Prop 13... become Tijuana.

[slackmaster]

125. "Destroying the educational system" is both an appeal to emotion, and a facile excuse

For poor management.

You've made your prediction - the Tijuanification of California. Here are mine:

- A new initiative to force the legislature to control spending and create a "rainy day" fund to save surpluses from good years.

- Redistricting reform in 2010 will destroy the "safe" R and D seats in the 2012 election. Democratic control will be reduced to a bare majority (less than 50% of California voters are registered Democrats). GOP levels will remain about the same. Third-party candidates, mainly Libertarians and Greens, will make up the balance.

- A push, maybe with some success, to reduce the length and frequency of legislative sessions, and a reduction in spending on the legislature itself.

- Wholesale release of non-violent and aging prisoners, and a huge reduction in prison spending.

The people of this state will not tolerate being taxed much more than we already are. We're more likely to throw the entire government out and start over.

[badgervan]

113. Thank You....

... you have said it well; this is what I've been trying to get across to some others here in my previous comments. If you value education, it must be funded. If you aren't willing to see your property taxes go up to fund education, then you don't put a high enough priority on education. Simple as that, when you cut through all the bull about paying too much already. Priorities.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ohio2007]

37. aide to failed states with failed school systems is also on the table

The peace corpse could use a few good teachers in NGO offices overseas.I wonder if some of these 26,000 would be willing to ask what they can do for Obama and their country

snip

Our law is still the same old law which was in place during our rule in Afghanistan," he said. "Mullah Mohammad Omar was our leader and he is still our head and leader and so we will follow the same law as before."

"In my opinion," he added, "Taliban aren't allowing girls to go to schools because Taliban want women to preserve their respect by staying in their homes, not to work as laborers for others."

Dozens of crimes across the country, especially acid attacks, have marred the opening of the new school year in Afghanistan. Afghan girls have been burned and scared randomly with acid as punishment for going to school. More than 600 schools did not open this year because of security issues, according to the Afghanistan Education Ministry The schools that did open, however, remain defiant. Young women admitted to CNN being fearful but also said they are determined to get an education and better their lives. It is a sentiment echoed by their principal, a 35-year veteran of Afghanistan's girls schools.

"I am asking those who close schools and throw acid on girls to let the children of this country go to school because it's crime to close the schools, a crime against the children of this country," said Safia Hayat, principal of the Zarghona Girls School in Kabul.

snip

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/03/15/afghan.taliban.threat/index.html

imo,
17,000 teachers could do more then a surge of 17,000 troops into the badlands oh Afghanistan

[Wednesdays]

48. See posts #11 and #16. nt

[Imagevision]

35. In the end was Arnie any better then Gray Davis? -

[shanti]

78. of course!

he was a dem!

[OnionPatch]

38. My daughter's class changes from 20 to 40 next year.

The entire transportation system has been scrapped....no more buses. The after-school care and/extra curricular activities programs are gone, too. I'll have to find a private organization to watch my daughter after school and during the summer. (Not an easy find since most of these places are religious in nature--not an option for us.) We're thinking about coughing up the money to send her to Montessori next year, that's how bad our public school has gotten. A year ago our school seemed to be doing great and we were happy to keep our daughter there. I knew things were bad, but I never believed the people of California would let this happen to our schools. :cry:

[ryanmuegge]

55. The burden of illegal immigrants is also a big factor in California.

$3 billion in services for a single fiscal year is a pretty significant dent in a state's budget.

[FreeState]

69. Source?

I cant find that figure anywhere

http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/StateAgencyBudgets/6013/6440/spr.html

[ryanmuegge]

71. Center for Immigration Studies.

That number doesn't really surprise me.

http://immigration.procon.org/viewanswers.asp?questionID=788

[FreeState]

82. Thanks :) n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

97. The CIS is a hate group.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=180

It's disguised to look unbiased, but it ain't.

[ohio2007]

58. American Adults Flunk Basic Science (national survey commissioned by the California Academy of Sc )

B]American Adults Flunk Basic Science
ScienceDaily (Mar. 13, 2009) — Are Americans flunking science? A new national survey commissioned by the California Academy of Sciences and conducted by Harris Interactive® reveals that the U.S. public is unable to pass even a basic scientific literacy test.

snip

Only 53% of adults know how long it takes for the Earth to revolve around the Sun.
Only 59% of adults know that the earliest humans and dinosaurs did not live at the same time.
Only 47% of adults can roughly approximate the percent of the Earth's surface that is covered with water.*
Only 21% of adults answered all three questions correctly.

snip


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090312115133.htm

these same adults were once students.
students of a failed education system ?

[mbperrin]

91. And yet somehow, the US garnered half of all the patents granted on the planet

last year.

Hmmm.

[caseymoz]

66. The collapse of the states has begun.

And all of it is the Republican's fault, too. I would say, however, Arnold is one of the more responsible ones. As much as the Repubs have screwed us over, the states are all in terrible shape financially. If states and cities begin to default on their bonds, it's going to cause a domino effect worldwide, and we probably won't get out of this Depression for 15 years. The California state government must survive. It's "too big to fail."

[dynasaw]

68. Disappearance of Tax Revenues

Along( as mentioned by several Du'ers) with Prop 13, the foreclosures where entire neighborhoods have turned into virtual ghost towns means a sharp decline in property taxers. Add to that the closure of businesses (no business taxes) and unemployment at close to 10%, I personally don't see where money to bail out California is going to be coming from. It's a grim scenario we're facing in this once golden state.

The teacher layoffs will mean not only people losing their jobs, but the positions themselves will probably disappear. People trained as and who used to be teachers may also not return to teaching. The waste in terms of training, skills and talent (notwithstanding the snarky remarks lately about teachers) is also something to think about.

Do we as Americans value education? Doesn't look like it to me.

[slackmaster]

70. People are still missing the Big Picture on California taxes

The biggest source of the drop in revenue for the state of California is a drop in its largest source of revenue: PERSONAL INCOME TAX.

The biggest problem for the California state budget is UNEMPLOYMENT.

http://www.osp.dgs.ca.gov/On-Line+Publications/finalbudsummary0809.htm

[ohio2007]

72. .

we don't need no education

http://www.comcast.net/data/fan/html/popup.html?v=1052964434

the future unemployeed will need a$$iStance

[slackmaster]

93. That was pretty fucking horrendous

I don't believe it is on topic.

:argh:

[caseymoz]

79. Which is currently true, but wait until retailers die.

That will be an Armageddon, and we're in grave danger of this happening. Part of the reason Bernanke is pouring liquidity into the economy is to maintain retail prices. Consumer credit was supporting high retail prices because people could still make purchases with it when they didn't have cash. Now that consumers can only buy with cash, prices are in danger of crashing. So, he's trying to maintain those prices and let them gradually come down.

Nevertheless, it was the lack of income for the middle and lower class that caused this mess to begin with. They would have never taken the kind of risks they did to buy a house if they had a hope of buying one through normal methods. I mean, think of the resets: they were hoping that something would happen and their income would go up.

Having a house is of central importance to people.

[slackmaster]

84. The central importance of having a house

Was the reason Proposition 13 came to be.

[caseymoz]

106. Which is also why so many deregulations were passed to make housing more available.

And people whose wages stayed flat for decades (and declined under Bush) saw that they couldn't afford The American Dream. Then those de-regulations went though, and all of a sudden finance companies were selling houses as a consumer item. They convinced people that they didn't need better pay to buy a house, and even if the ARMs they offered sucked, they convinced people it would be easy to refinance.

All of that would look to be beside the point, except I will say that once tax cuts became the Republican's number one issue, the rich became much richer, and the poor became poorer. It wasn't directly because of Prop 13, but it certainly had consequences in our national government.

[barb162]

116. I don't know if that tells the entire story.

CA pays notoriously low property taxes compared to some other states, but maybe it has a higher personal income tax rate than other states. I don't know the total tax picture for each state so it's difficult to discuss. My state taxes EVERYTHING. I swear they will tax the air soon.
What's the property tax on a million buck house in CA?

[SahaleArm]

118. Or the over-dependence on income tax...

Most of the time property tax is more stable than income tax; unfortunately the bubble will be a double whammy for California. Prop-13 is just distorts who pays for what; new homeowners subsidize the older ones. In some neighborhoods the distortion can be as high as 10-1. This creates a disincentive to buy property in California, especially since renting is 1/2 the cost.

[U4ikLefty]

120. Many of the older property-tax payers are elderly & on a fixed income.

Do you really think that it is okay to raise the property taxes on the elderly, becuase the prices of homes in California were artificially inflated?

If it wasn't for Prop 13, many elderly folks I know would be losing their homes right now.

Raise income taxes for people earning over 250K (like Obama wants to do nationally) and, if you wish, remove the Prop 13 provisions to protect commercial properties.

[caseymoz]

74. Definitely, the suburbs are going to dry up and die.

Part of the reason, of course, are the foreclosures. However, there's another problem coming down the pike that will completely shrivel them.

First you have to understand that when PC's came in, they first began to generate cheap spread-sheets and scientists and engineers looked at them, they discovered something, a certain scientific principle, a law of economics, about the relation of communities to tax revenue and public expenditures. Residential property loses money, industrial property breaks even, and commercial property makes money. Residential property costs the public coffers so much, way more in costs than homeowners could possibly pay in taxes. Commercial property more than makes up for it, however. For communities, it's a cash cow. This has effected suburban planning ever since. I won't go into the reasons why it works that way.

So, suburbs must have commercial property, that is to say, stores, hotels, service companies, restaurants, and it's mainly why we've had such a growth in strip malls and shopping malls, and why developers are snatching up farms to put them in. Communities will make a lot of concessions and even pay to have commercial businesses come in and set up.

Now, retail is being badly squeezed. Those properties have their own mortgages, and some of them are as "innovative" as housing mortgages were. If commercial property collapses, suburbs are no longer viable. Community governments will close, streets won't get fixed, schools will run out of money, neighborhoods won't be policed, and in other words, they'll begin to look like inner city ghettos.

So, where are all the people going to go as those suburbs become run down? The cities. They have to or live in neighborhoods that are constantly deteriorating, and where there are no stores, So, the cities are going to grow denser, and commercial businesses will grow up there.

If this crisis continues, it's going to change everything. The country absolutely will not be the same.

[Renew Deal]

80. Is that for this school year or next?

Are they going to just fire everyone now?

[raccoon]

83. kick nt