25% increase in sex assault in combat zones: 'Wait until she's sober,' says Pentagon watchdog

[RamboLiberal]

Source: NY Daily News

It's not quite up there with President Obama's Special Olympics gaffe, but a "wait until she's sober" crack by the military's top sex crimes watchdog comes close.

"This woman is not in the right line of work," Rep. Louise Slaughter (D-N.Y.) said of the statement last week by Dr. Kaye Whitley, director of the Pentagon's Sexual Assault Prevention and Response Office.

Whitley's bizarre quote came as she released the military's annual report on sex assault, which showed a 25% increase in combat zones, including 22 cases in Afghanistan and 143 in Iraq.

In pitching "bystander intervention" to curb attacks and harassment, Whitley gave this example: "If you see one of your buddies serve drinks to somebody to get them drunk, maybe what you do is step in and say 'Why don't you wait until she's sober?'"

Slaughter was aghast. "I was really shocked anyone would say a thing like that," she said.


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/03/25/2009-03-25_25_increase_in_sex_assault_in_combat_zon.html

[Bolo Boffin]

1. I don't understand. It's crude, but...

I don't know why I should be upset that someone tells people to recognize when someone's trying to lower a woman's judgment by getting her drunk.

In effect, Whitley was telling the troops to "go after her when she's sober -- that says she's fair game," said Slaughter, who sponsored the legislation that required the military to report annually on sex assaults and its efforts to curb them.

No, that's not it at all. Slaughter is saying, "Level the playing field. If you can't persuade a woman to have sex with you when she's sober, you're taking unfair advantage of her and enabling the dynamics of sexual attack. Be a man worth sharing time with when she's sober."

[lumberjack_jeff]

3. "by getting her drunk"

Absent an IV tube, I'm uncertain how one can do this.

To my recollection, no one (except me) has ever gotten me drunk before.

[Bolo Boffin]

7. That's a better point than the one being made.

But that's also from my paraphrase of Slaughter's words, not what Slaughter actually said.

And I will maintain that "getting her drunk" is a tactic used by many men to lower a woman's inhibitions in one way and then attack her sexually.

[Hello_Kitty]

11. Not according to lumberjack jeff.

Since it's never happened to him it can't happen to anyone.

[lumberjack_jeff]

26. Certainly alcohol lowers inhibitions.

All it takes to fend off that attack is to say "no thanks". I don't think that any bystander should be responsible for someone else's decision to drink, nor any subsequent decisions to do legal things.

Certainly women have been sexually assaulted while passed out (and obviously not capable of consenting). That's rape, and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

[Hello_Kitty]

10. Yeah, the slut has it coming if she drinks too much.

I mean, she's just asking to be prey for any man in her vicinity if she has too much to drink, amiright fellas? :eyes:

[lumberjack_jeff]

15. The alternative is to expect someone else to be responsible for her decisions.

People shouldn't drink too much because it impairs your judgement. But it's still your judgement.

[EFerrari]

16. We're not isolates, we move in social groups.

Being a member of a social group means sometimes you are in fact responsible for other people just as you expect them to help you when you are vulnerable.

[lumberjack_jeff]

17. The social groups I belong to assume responsibility for the children in it.

The other adults? Not so much. It is assumed that (absent serious mental illness issues) they are capable of self-determination.

My appraisal of the wisdom of going home with him is not, generally, enough to make me feel as responsible for her choices as if she were a child, and I don't see gender as making any difference.

[EFerrari]

18. It's not about gender but about vulnerability.

So, you've never asked a friend for a coin for a parking meter, had a neighbor borrow a tool or offered someone a ride in the rain? We cooperate all the time. That's why we own this joint. :)

[lumberjack_jeff]

19. Intervening due to the vulnerabilities caused by their choices is a very different kettle of fish.

Holding someone else responsible for those choices is a step beyond even that.

If asked, I'm happy to loan my neighbor a tool. I'm less likely to advise him to use my lawnmower because his lawn clearly reflects an inability to make his own choices.

I would dislike, by virtue of being the owner of the neighborhood lawnmower, being held responsible for all the neighboring lawns.

My basic belief is that everyone in the bar is a grownup, making their own choices for good or ill.

[Runcible Spoon]

20. Would you try to stop someone from driving drunk?

:shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

22. Sure. Not a very good analogy though.

Unless you think that FUI should be against the law.

[Runcible Spoon]

27. No, the analogy was meant to counter your whole BS argument about

how adults should be free to make their own bad decisions. So the fact that it's illegal is the only thing that would make you intervene? Not that you care about your friend's life? :shrug:

[Lance_Boyle]

28. So wait - you think women shouldn't be able to decide to get drunk?

Bizarre argument you're trying to make against Lumberjack_Jeff's very reasonable statement that IT'S AN INDIVIDUAL'S CHOICE whether he or she drinks, or drinks to excess.

[Hello_Kitty]

42. That doesn't mean that she's sexually available to any man in her vicinity.

Look, I realize that mutual drunken "hookups" happen. But I also know that there are men who deliberately target women with drinking problems or low tolerance to take advantage of them. I was in the military and believe me, I know what I'm talking about.

[Scout]

45. oh kitty, you silly

"That doesn't mean that she's sexually available to any man in her vicinity."

whatsamattah with you? women are ALWAYS supposed to be sexually available if a man wants her enough. if she's not she's frigid.

:sarcasm:

[Hello_Kitty]

46. You got it, That's what women are.

Walking semen recepticles.

[EFerrari]

21. That's a reasonable assumption and one I agree with.

But, human behavior happens on a continuum. Maybe you wouldn't intervene between a drunk woman and a stalker but you would call the police on your way home if you say a guy beating someone with a tire iron.

The two situations ask you to make pretty much the same decision.

[lumberjack_jeff]

23. The tire iron makes the situation pretty clear.

What is it about the guy with the bar tab that makes the situation apparent to bystanders?

[EFerrari]

25. It's a matter of judging the situation on your own and making a decision.

And, that involves risk, doesn't it? Risk of being wrong, of pissing the guy off, too, and of looking foolish maybe.

I remember a time when people didn't talk about domestic violence or rape even when they had to ignore visible signs on a body to ignore those things. It was "none of our business".

But I can't help thinking, if I was in a bar or at a party or in my barracks and someone I knew was shoveling liquor into a women to do her, I'd know. I wouldn't need to consult the manual. And going to sit with them or taking a friend with me to strike up a conversation and diffusing the situation wouldn't be very hard to do. It would be a lot easier than finding out later that woman got raped and I did nothing to prevent it when I knew full well what was going on. It's just part of being in a community. If that women was being self-destructive or stupid, I'd be pissed at her as well, for that matter. :shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

29. Anecdote time.

But I can't help thinking, if I was in a bar or at a party or in my barracks and someone I knew was shoveling liquor into a women to do her, I'd know. I wouldn't need to consult the manual. And going to sit with them or taking a friend with me to strike up a conversation and diffusing the situation wouldn't be very hard to do.

I've done that very thing. They were both friends. She went home with him anyway and later resented me for "treating her like a child". She was right.

[EFerrari]

30. Were you able to handle that bit of resentment? Probably a lot of us

have done that and did.

:)

The fact of the matter is, looking out for each other is what gives us the ability to have things like armies. We make a small switch in our brain from looking out for Number 1 to looking out for the group. Sometimes we make mistakes and our friends get pissed off but on the whole, it's a good skill to have.

[lumberjack_jeff]

32. I learned from it. I'm not a better judge of what any other adult should do. n/t

[EFerrari]

33. It's not a question of knowing "better" than anyone else.

It's a question of stepping in when a vulnerable person needs support from the people around them as far as you can tell. Maybe you've made the right decision because you don't assess those situations very well. That's perfectly legit.

[Hello_Kitty]

41. And he was still a dick who plied a woman with alcohol to have sex with her.

Whatever her issues were.

[maxrandb]

34. My God!

"Shipmates taking care of Shipmates" is one of the tenents of the US Navy!!!

What the hell has happened to us. If you see someone at risk, you're supposed to help them. That "everyman for himself" crap is what got us into the mess were in.

[EFerrari]

36. Yep. Pretty much every object that we can see around us

is the result of social cooperation. That we're here at all certainly is. "Every man for himself" is not condusive to either individual or group survival.

[readmoreoften]

24. So if a female is an alcoholic, ipso facto she's askin' for it.

Nice. And from what I hear a lot of women over there are turning to heavy drinking to cope with the stress of being so close to death and destruction.

What about women who pass out for medical reasons? How can a rapist tell the difference between someone who got herself drunk (i.e. deserves rape) and someone who had a rufie slipped in her diet coke (i.e. a "good girl")? :sarcasm:

[lumberjack_jeff]

31. No one deserves to be raped.

Between adults, rape is an unambiguous thing; nonconsensual sex.

If you think we're arguing about that, you're reading something between the lines that is not there.

I'm saying that absent severe mental illness, adult a does not have a right to substitute his or her judgement for adult b.

"You should stop drinking because you might inadvertently go home with that seedy no-account who is buying your drinks" How condescending is that?

[Hello_Kitty]

40. No, seedy no-accounts shouldn't be using alcohol as a date rape drug.

And don't bother with some bullshit that guys don't do that.

[Hello_Kitty]

43. That doesn't mean you deserve to be preyed upon.

I was in the military for several years. A few of then were spent at a training facility. I knew some older NCOs who were quite proud of their ability to get young non-com women good and liquored up so they could take advantage of them. Then there was that guy I was stationed with in Japan who came to work one morning bragging about how he lured a stumbling drunk local woman into a cab and took her back to his barracks. I told him what a shitheel rapist he was, a only one guy in my unit sided with that, but the rest of the guys thought it was cool. :puke:

[Scout]

44. the other alternative is to expect those men to be decent human beings

instead of fucking jerks.

but i guess that will never happen.

[Hello_Kitty]

47. The menz can't control themselves dontchaknow?

It's all part of their manly man evolushun, see. The menz evoluted to be rapists so's they can spread their seedz so of course it's the wimminz who hold all the cards on accounta they're all monogamust and such and gots to get resources for the baybeez. Or something. :eyes:

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. Here's the point which is being deliberately missed.

Dr. Kaye Whitley, director of the Pentagon's Sexual Assault Prevention and Response Office, is either,
A) attempting to redefine "combat zone sexual assault", as sex in which consent is given but later regretted, or,
B) attempting to explain away legitimate sexual assault as an unfortunate result of combat stress and women's inherent inability to make good choices about (and while under the influence of) alcohol.

Clearly, this subthread is debating the merits of the former. Downthread, someone observed that in the current combat zones, alcohol is prohibited, which implies the latter.

Maxine Waters response is correct. Either way, Whitley has no aptitude for her job.

[olddad56]

39. yeah, atta boy, it is okay to rape a woman if she is intoxicated.

NOT

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. Be sure to alert on anyone who says this.

If you can find one.

Strawmen are cool.

[jobycom]

4. That's how I read it, too.

:shrug:

[HubertHeaver]

2. Dr. Whitley knows her clientele.

[drm604]

5. I don't see the problem with this.

What's wrong with suggesting that you not try to take advantage of a woman who's judgment is impaired by alcohol? If she's sober then she can make a clearheaded decision as to whether or not she's interested.

What am I missing here?

[truthisfreedom]

6. Weird story.

Weird twist, too, including Obama's gaffe.

[ShortnFiery]

8. Just another way to disrespect our President by the whores in the M$M.

[SemperEadem]

9. the woman needs to do more reading to improve her vocabulary

and her understanding of the use of the language.

What she said made sense: how she said it was insulting to the woman.

Perhaps what she should have said was "don't serve liquor to a woman with the intent of having sex with her. We have enough problems even having to be over here in this war without you being led by your dicques into something you need legal help getting out of."

The proper people are put on notice without implying that the woman's worth, to them, is a just pvssy to fvck.

[Hello_Kitty]

12. I agree. The use of term 'fair game' in any context is unsettling

Which is unfortunate because, like you said, she was making an important statement.

[NashVegas]

13. "Fair Game" Was Inferred

By Slaughter.

[Hello_Kitty]

14. Ah, I see. eom

[bdab1973]

35. This is just another example of something being politicized...

I'm deployed in Baghdad right now, and there are sexual assault awareness flyers all over the place, with phone numbers of who to contact if a person is having troubles. AFN (Armed Forces Network...the TV station for the military) runs sexual assault prevention ads constantly. Based on the information I've seen presented to us in the legion of ads, flyers and sexual assault awareness classes (yes, we have those too), the statement from Whitley is basically "if the girl would tell you NO while sober, what makes you think she'd consent when she's drunk".

Any efforts to play this as "ok boys, when she's sober, go get 'er!!!" is simply political grandstanding and trying to make a mountain out of a molehill and it upsets me quite a bit. I have worked in the civilian world as well, and I NEVER saw this much attention go towards sexual assault prevention in ANY civilian company or college that I attended. The military works very hard to try and prevent these problems, because when you get down to it, you've got a bunch of young men who are away from home for the first time, experiencing lots of stressful things, and working around women...you're bound to uncover a few sexual misfits in this environment. The military has a program that attempts to tackle the problem, and having members of Congress (who are doing just a bang up job themselves) run around gloating about how they "caught" someone saying something they misinterpret as insensitive reeks of political opportunism.

Anyways, it just kind of pisses me off...

Not to mention that we can't drink here in the first place...so that whole quote has no bearing on combat troops anyways.

[EFerrari]

37. Fess up. You have a still going somewhere.

:)

Thanks for the reality check.

[lumberjack_jeff]

38. "Not to mention that we can't drink here in the first place"

Thanks for making that point.