Hummer Driver Arrested In Fatal Hit-And-Run

[stevedeshazer]

PORTLAND -- A driver is charged with DUI in an overnight fatal hit-and-run.

A pedestrian was struck about 12:45 a.m. at Northwest 20th and Burnside in Portland.

Emergency workers found the victim, a white man in his mid-30s, in the middle of the street. The man, whose identity was not immediately released, died at Legacy Emanuel Hospital.

Police say a rust-colored 2003 Hummer H2 fled the scene, but witnesses gave a description and license plate number.

source: http://www.koin.com/webnews/2004/20040302_hitandrun.shtml

[maggrwaggr]

1. that driver must have seen the H2 commercial

where the kid builds the little hummer and cheats in the race.

Drive a hummer -- get away with whatever.

I spontaneously flipped off a hummer yesterday

[slackmaster]

3. Please don't put yourself at risk

Flipping any driver off carries a risk of getting shot, run over, beaten, etc.

[primavera]

6. Yeah, it's a safe bet...

... that anyone who's sufficiently sociopathic and insecure as to drive a hummer is just the sort likely to have a rocket propelled grenade launcher handy and be itching to use it. Don't forget, we need all Dems alive and voting this November!

[maggrwaggr]

20. Nah, they all have little teeny dicks

that's why they buy hummers.

I usually restrain myself, but yesterday, I dunno, my hand just shot out of the window! Maybe I should keep my windows rolled up.

[primavera]

21. I understand

I have the same problem whenever I drive down Mass Ave past the National Observatory: my middle finger just seems to have a will of its own and can't resist the temptation to flip off Cheney as I drive past. One of these days the Secret Service is going to notice and come drag me off to Gitmo in the middle of the night.

[dflprincess]

85. That reminds me of the new slogan I recently came up with for Hummers

"Even if you have a small dick, you can still get a Hummer!"

Wouldn't you like to see that in an ad? I should try and sell it to their ad agency.

[Zhade]

96. HAHAHAHAHAHA! That's GENIUS!

I love it. :D

[hang a left]

22. You want to know something, my mother drives a H2.

She is the nicest person in the world, would give you the shirt off her back. She doesn't know about peak oil and she doesn't think that she is hurting anyone. She has money and is reliving her youth. Hummer driver bashing is stupid and bigoted. There I finally said it. And while I am at it my husband drives a 8 cylinder Yukon, and he is a hell of a nice guy too.

[primavera]

27. If the shoe fits...

Sorry, I don't mean to insult the people you care for, but I think there's a pretty compelling case to be made against SUVs. Not only are they fuel inefficient and thus consume more than anyone's fair share of a finite, nonrenewable resource, they have inordinately high emissions and thus contribute ore than anyone's fair share to air pollution, plus they pose a significant public safety threat to other drivers on the roads. These facts are not contested, not even by the most zealous SUV enthusiast. The only defense I hear from SUV owners to these criticisms is that it's their right as Americans to do whatever they please. To which I can only reply: "Since when?" Do I as an American have the right to dump my garbage into your backyard? So what an SUV driver the "right" to dump his/her toxic emissions into the air that I have to breath too? Do I as an American have the right to recklessly endanger your safety? Well, actually, reckless endangerment is considered a crime under the law and people go to jail for it. So what gives SUV drivers the "right" to drive a vehicle which drastically increases the chances of other surrounding vehicles meeting with a fatal accident?

I'm sorry, I'm sure your husband and mother are both really nice people, but even really nice people are capable of doing irresponsible things, either through ignorance or callous disregard for the consequences of their actions. I see nothing either stupid or bigoted about trying to alert such people to the error of their ways, do you?

[gemini62167]

50. I agree.

I went to Catholic school for junior high and the most poignant and important thing I learned was from a lay teacher in the 7th grade. She said it so clearly. . .

"your right ends where my nose begins."

I think Americans need to get a reality check on what a "right" is and what it isn't. As well as remembering that there are "responsibilities" with "rights".

Oh well... I'm on my soap box again. sorry.

[Zhade]

97. Excellent post.

NT!

[w4rma]

34. nobody's perfect. (n/t)

[slackmaster]

36. Thanks for the heads-up

I was going to say something about only whores and football players...

:evilgrin:

[gemini62167]

39. really?

Funny if my mother or someone else I cared about thought of buying something so irresponsible I would find it hard to sit back and just say "oh well, my mother is a nice person so I'll just look the other way. . ." Believe me, my father and his wife went and bought a gas guzzling SUV for no reason at all. No kids left in the house, just them and two very small dogs. I let them hear it every time I see em. I love 'em but it's foolishly irresponsible. Fact is they know it now and regret buying the thing. Aside from the fact that they no longer whine about the "unfairness" of gas prices when I'm around. Actually come to think of it... none of the rest of the kids put up with it. We just tell 'em, "well you bought the damn thing", you pay to run it."

I'll continue to bash SUV and Humvee owners for as long as I'm still alive to do so. At the rate they continue to come at me while I'm biking to work - I may not be alive much longer.

[General Discontent]

66. gemini62167

Welcome to DU. If you ride your bike to work you are automatically my friend.

I have to laugh at the SUV drivers because 99% of them IMHO don't need them but I'm sure they love the POWER.... You get to intimidate other drivers even inadvertantly by your sheer size. Ye ha.. I personally see SUVs as symbols of vulgar consumption, something our country has a problem with lately. But specifically, my problem with SUV drivers is that are a very poor design with limited visibility for the drivers, and they jepordize my personal safety on a daily basis, especially as I ride to work in the bike lane. Most of these behemoths had a really bad habit of drifing over into my bike lane when traffic gets tight, or when making right turns. Sometimes, I have noticed the drivers actually have to put doen their cell phones momentarily to turn the wheel with more that one hand. It must be awful for them.

For a laugh though, just listen to SUV drivers try to justify why they "have" to own one. What a hoot......

Lastly, over 40,000 people a year die in car crashes, and several thousand of these people aren't even in cars, i.e they are bicyclists and pedestrians. The number of people killed in car wrecks per year is like having a 9/11 disaster with 3000 people killed around every 27 days. So when do we declare war on the auto?:shrug:


DWolfman

[Say_What]

40. Probably nice, but both completely irresponsible and thoughtless

you ought to educate them a bit on energy conservation and global warming.

<clips>

Driving Up the Heat: SUVs and Global Warming

...When it comes to wasting energy, SUVs are unrivaled. Built with outdated, gas-guzzling technology, many SUVs get just 13 miles per gallon. And the higher gas prices are, the more money they waste.

Auto-industry advertising portrays SUVs as the ticket to freedom and the great outdoors. Commercials depict them climbing massive snow-capped mountains or tearing through desert sand dunes, taking their owners into the wild. In reality, the only off-road action many of these vehicles see is accidentally driving through a flower bed next to the driveway.

Missing from these ads are other contributions from SUVs—the brown haze of air pollution hanging over many of our national parks, images of weather disasters linked to global warming or the oil derricks and tankers needed to feed gas-guzzling SUVs. In contrast to Detroit's carefully crafted image, SUVs have a dark side. They spew out 43 percent more global-warming pollution and 47 percent more air pollution than an average car. SUVs are four times more likely than cars to roll over in an accident and three times more likely to kill the occupants in a rollover. They also cost the owner thousands more on gasoline.

http://www.sierraclub.org/globalwarming/SUVreport/

[ManneredChild]

47. So let's ban SUVs

Right after we ban smoke belching airlines and diesel trains that waste more fuel per passenger per mile than ANY private vehicles.

[primavera]

52. Actually, that's not true

The average per passenger fuel economy for a Boeing 747, for instance, works out at 80 miles to the gallon. Admittedly, that assumes that every seat on the plane carries a passenger, which is certainly often not the case, but even were the plane only 3/4 full, the per passenger fuel economy would still be 4 times higher than an average SUV carrying a single passenger.

But the comparison is faulty to begin with: even if aircraft were less fuel efficient rather than more, aircraft perform a unique function in being able to transport you thousands of miles in a short period of time. SUVs do nothing unique that a more fuel efficient, lower emissions car cannot do just as well, and without jeopardizing public safety in the process.

[maggrwaggr]

57. A hummer isn't a sports UTILITY vehicle

Some people actually need SUV's like Suburbans and the like, to carry their gear, or their equipment for work. I work in a field where this is often the case.

But a Hummer is nothing but a symbol, a status symbol and a symbol of everything that's fucked up about this country.

If you buy a hummer it's because

a. you have a little dick and you're rich.

b. you're short and you're rich.

c. you're just damned ignorant

d. you're stupid because you never thought "gosh this won't fit in any parking spaces anywhere"

e. you're a GOP god-bless-America asshole

f. all of the above

[hang a left]

65. I 'd like you to say that to my face.

People get so brave on the net ;->

[bobbyboucher]

78. Do you see the hypocracy of that post?

I sure hope so.

[hang a left]

82. h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y

If you are gonna stick up for someone that is an immature asshole, then please spell at me correctly :->

[bobbyboucher]

87. Sorry, can you see the hypocrisy?

Smart guy. Surely you can see it, no? If you like, I can explain it to you. But since you looked up, errrr.... know the spelling and so graciously corrected me, then I am guessing that you know what it means.

Come on, let us all know if you can see the clear hypocrisy? Or are you going to resort to outright threats instead of veiled ones.

I know that you are tough cause you type tough.

[hang a left]

93. By the way, I am a girl. FYI

[maggrwaggr]

95. gee, do you think I'm accusing your Mom of having a little dick?

Sorry. There are other sections of the list that must apply then.

You yourself said she's ill-informed, which can be translated readily as "ignorant".

Don't worry, I've got some wacko fundies in my family that think Satan put dinosaur bones on the earth.

By the way I'd be happy to say any of this to your face, preferably over drinks in a bar somewhere with a large appreciative audience.

And I'm a guy, by the way. FYI. 6'4", 240 lbs. Let's rumble! :)

[Zhade]

98. Hey, off-topic - did you make it to the b*sh protest today?

NT!

[Lorien]

46. There is nothing remotely "nice"

about the harm those vehicles cause to other drivers, to America, and to the planet. If your loved ones were smoking, and you had asthma, would you say nothing and continue to suffer the harmful effects of secondhand smoke just because you deemed the selfish people "nice"?

It is not "stupid" to call a spade a spade. A bigot is defined as" a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices", and since the harmful effects of Hummers on other drivers, the environment, and international relations is indeed fact and not opinion or prejudice, I beg to differ with your assessment. I would hate to hear one day that your mother has been in what might have been a minor fender bender, but instead was a fatal accident because she was driver a Hummer that crushed a smaller vehicle. Please consider encouraging her to "relive her youth" in a sportscar. It's the patriotic thing to do!

[maggrwaggr]

56. Well if your Mom sees someone flipping her off on the road

sometime, you just tell her it's me.

:)

[hang a left]

64. It would be fortunate for you, if I wasn't in the car.

Nobody fucks with my kids or my mom :->

[bobbyboucher]

79. See post #65.

It's your own.

[rocktivity]

5. Well, the flyer in the Hummer commerical

says "Big Race...First One Down Wins!" Unless it also specifically said that the cars had to stay on a predefined course, he DIDN'T cheat. The longer version of that commercial is what pisses me off, with the admiring female having nothing to offer but a sultry look and her best wishes. Building and driving Hummers are men's work, apparently.

:headbang:
rocknation

[FizzFuzz]

9. so many car ads of that nature

it makes me hurl. The mom simpering over the leather seats in the hemi-pick-up: the dad telling little mini-man not to listen to his mother (implication: stupid lady mother).

[rocktivity]

55. Is that the commerical where the dad gets the boy to say "hemi"

and thus snatches him from the jaws of potential gayness?

And there's another commercial about a 4-wheel drive mini van: The wife brags to her friends that she didn't allow her husband to bully her into buying a gratuitously macho SUV, and the husband brags to his buddies that he didn't allow the wife to bully him into buying a boring pussywhipped-with-children mini-van!

:headbang:
rocknation

[MUAD_DIB]

8. Careful of the road rage baiting.

We don't want to see you plastered all over the evening news.

[bahrbearian]

32. Spontaneously.. I do it every time I see one,

you should see the looks I get, especially from my passengers.

[rocktivity]

2. Hopefully, the driver will be in custody soon

But I didn't know a Hummer could move fast enough to that kind of damage.

:headbang:
rocknation

[electricmonk]

4. Seems to be the new trend

Motorist Allegedly Hits, Drags Man Over Eight Miles
A Lorton motorist faces several charges after police say he hit a man on Interstate 95 and dragged the body 8½ miles before notifying authorities.

Fairfax County (website - news) Police said Josuel Galdino, 25, of Lorton called them about 6 a.m. Sunday to report a man's body was caught in the front-end suspension of his sport utility vehicle.

[Mairead]

14. Poor soul! And what'll you bet they make a total dog's breakfast of his

name on the headstone: Fitsum Gebreegziabher

[shanti]

17. so it was a black man that was hit

and an ethiopian at that...wonder how much press this will get?

[private_ryan]

7. wow

it must the SUV's fault. No one driving anything else ever did this.

[devilgrrl]

12. I don't recall ever hearing a Honda Civic dragging someone for miles...

stuck under the car.

Tool! :argh:

[private_ryan]

15. let's ban them then

n/t

[Qutzupalotl]

23. Nah.

A saner tax incentive would be better.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0101hummer01.html
Buy a shiny new Hummer or a fully loaded Cadillac Escalade, then get a hefty tax deduction on the monster vehicle, all compliments of Uncle Sam.

The deduction for business owners, approved in May by President Bush as part of his federal tax-cut package, gives a deduction of up to $100,000 for new or used vehicles that weigh more than 6,000 pounds. Aside from Hummers and Cadillacs, the choices ranged from the Dodge Durango and the Ford Expedition to the Lincoln Navigator and the GMC Yukon.


http://www.detnews.com/2004/money/0401/31/b03-44631.htm
Hybrid tax break is getting smaller
Credit may be gone in 2006 unless Congress extends it

If you buy a hybrid vehicle this year, you can claim a $1,500 deduction on your 2004 tax return, down from $2,000 for hybrids bought in 2003.

Next year, the deduction will drop to $1,000, and it’s scheduled to fall to $500 in 2006.

Because the tax break is a deduction, its value varies, depending on your tax bracket. If you’re in the 33 percent tax bracket, a $1,500 deduction will reduce your tax bill by $495. If you’re in the 15 percent tax bracket, it’s worth $225.

-----------
As Ahnold likes to say, all it takes is leadership. (And a president unbeholden to the oil industry.) Fortunately, people are starting to realize that their gas expenditures are lining the pockets of countries who sponsor terrorism and anti-American schools in Pakistan:
-----------

http://slate.msn.com/id/2096191/
After 9/11, Hummers became a cocky symbol of American greatness. Driving the biggest, baddest, least-fuel-efficient car on the planet was tantamount to giving the finger to environmentalists, Arianna Huffington, and all those who suggested that the involvement of Saudi citizens in the attacks should lead us to rethink our dependence on foreign oil. You could be an active home-front warrior by buying an expensive Hummer—imitating our troops in Iraq and stimulating the economy at the same time. (Hummers also come in handy in case you need to mount a motorized assault on the Stop-n-Shop.)

But in recent months the Hummer has bogged down. Combined year-over-year sales of the H1 and H2 have fallen for the past five months. In January 2004, just 1,927 Hummers were sold—off nearly 50 percent from December 2003, and down by one third from January 2003. The future doesn't look very bright, either. Business Week reported there are 68 days worth of Hummers in inventory, and that GM has throttled back its 2004 sales forecast from 40,000 to 30,000.

[primavera]

28. Or stop subsidizing gas prices

You'd be surprised how few SUVs one sees in Europe where gas prices more accurately reflect the true cost of gasoline. Those who really feel strongly enough about their SUVs to be willing to pay $50 per fillup would still be able to make that choice, but I imagine a whole lot of people would decide that it made a whole lot more sense to drive a hybrid that they only had to fill up once every three months.

I do think though that drivers should have to pay a tax on their vehicle's emissions. If you're willing to drive an utra-low emissions vehicle, great, the tax would be next to nothing. If you adamantly insist on asserting your "right" to pollute the air we all have to breath, then the very least you can do is help pay for the cost of treating all of the lung cancer and respiratory disease victims your lifestyle choice is causing.

[Qutzupalotl]

30. Those both sound like good ideas.

The gas subsidy will hurt though, especially trucking companies. We'll all pay higher prices for goods shipped that way (and most are). But that should stop the waste-as-chic thing we have going, and might be worth it.

[primavera]

33. Good point

You're right, I always forget about the trucking industry, thanks for reminding me. Despite my zeal on this topic, I do respect that there are two sides to every issue. Still, we've got to do something... At the rate air quality is deteriorating, we're soon going to be like Manilla and have to wear gas masks just to walk down the streets. I'm not making that up, there are parts of the world where the air quality actually has gotten that bad, yet still we do nothing.

[BigDaddyLove]

24. Maybe not, but Chante Jawan Mallard was driving a.......

Chevy Cavalier when she impaled Gregory Glenn Biggs in it's windshield.

[FizzFuzz]

10. Only 25 and he owns a Hummer?

Where does a 25 year old get the bux for a vehicle like that?

About "blaming" SUV's...nah, just the attitude that seems to go WITH the SUV

Incidentally, I work at a college and let me tell you, its a weird weird feeling to be driving your little econo-car and pass a student driving a Hummer. And, I can't even count how many early-20 something boys in ultra-luxury-turbo-extra-chrome-testosterone-injected-SUV's I've had to fight just to keep 'em from running me off the road -- while they laugh in my face!!! (no I'm not being sexist; the aggressively rude/dangerous ones have been boys)

[BigDaddyLove]

18. 35.

.

[utopian]

11. No Surprise

I know of a woman in Porltand whose foot was completely shattered by a Hummer, and, of course, the driver sped off. She was crossing at a green light, and the Hummer pulled the old right on a red without looking or slowing down.

[thebaghwan]

13. I live in Seattle and one thing I have noticed is that there seems to be a

lot of hit and run incidents which I find rather alarming.

[bushisanidiot]

16. Freep Logic: The pedestrian should've seen him coming cuz SUV's are

big and bad!

so you see, it's the victims fault for not getting out of the way.

bleh..

[BigDaddyLove]

19. That intersection is a death trap for pedestrians........

and cars alike, so I'm not surprised that someone got hit there....I almost ran several people over myself, and I wasn't even in a Hummer.

[mitchtv]

25. some one here in SoCal was hit by 3cars las mo.

1 suv 1 pickup and a car- the car driver stopped and squealed on the others. The origional car wasn't caught.

[evworldeditor]

26. Hummer Sales Declining Says Slate Article

An EV World readers sent me this link.... While Toyota Prius sales continue to climb, Hummer sales are sinking.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2096191/

[BigDaddyLove]

31. I've often wondered how sales were for Hummers.........

Generally speaking I might see one or two a day, compared to how many other vehicles I see that are in the same price range and class.

I tend to think that the Hummer will be just another passing fad and that in a few years GM will drop it altogether.

[callous taoboy]

29. Driver needs

to be sentenced to community service...in Iraq...collecting IEDs.

[Mozam]

35. So it is a SUV and not a drunk driver that killed a human

To hear you folks talk SUVs are more dangerous than drunk drivers. I bet if you check the stats you will find drunks kill more people than drivers of SUVs. Anyone who drives drunk should have the book thrown at them. By the way the moron who hit the driver on I-95 (DC area) Sunday morning was also drunk. Finally, I watch so many people driving crazy in all sorts of vehicles as I tow my trailer driving the speed limit in my diesel powered Ford Excursion.

[primavera]

37. So one dangerous behavior negates any others?

Since drunk driving is a dangerous behavior, other dangerous behaviors - like driving SUVs - don't need to be considered? Does that mean we need only prosecute murderers as the most serious criminals, and all the rapists and thieves and such should just be let off the hook since their crimes don't measure up to the seriousness of murder?

[Mozam]

38. Driving any vehicle

comes with some risk that many accept...driving a SUV is no more dangerous than driving my minivan or a semi-tractor trailer when done correctly. It is the individual actions of the driver that make the roads dangerous. Your statement "Does that mean we need only prosecute murderers as the most serious criminals, and all the rapists and thieves and such should just be let off the hook since their crimes don't measure up to the seriousness of murder?" Is comparing apples to oranges and does not hold water.

[primavera]

49. You say I'm comparing apples and oranges?

You compare SUVs' safety record with those of commercial semis and you think my comparisons are irrelevant? Why not compare the safety record of SUVs with that of the space shuttle, or aircraft carriers, or helicopters? Because they're totally different vehicles, as should be obvious. The only comparison which has any bearing on the question at hand is how the safety record of SUVs stack up against the safety record of other vehicles commonly used to convey passengers on public roads and in that comparison, SUVs compare very poorly indeed.

Yes, I accept that when I enter traffic on a public road shared by other motorists, I am accepting some risk, the operative word here being "some." I do not accept that other drivers have a right to choose vehicles which will greatly enhance that risk above and beyond that which is necessary. What SUV drivers never seem to want to acknowledge is that shared public spaces - like roads - are just that: the shared property of everyone, not just SUV drivers. Public spaces entail not only the right by all to use them, but also the concommitant obligation to use them responsibly and with respect for the other people who have just as much right to be there as you do.

Admittedly, that's a chronic problem in this country - everyone's eager to embrace their individual rights; few are as eager to assume any responsibilty for the consequences of their actions. Kind of ironic really, when you think about it, that a country which places so much value on individual responsibility in its economic life so readily perceives an inalienable right to despoil the environment and jeopardize the safety of others without incurring the slightest responsibility or accountablity for their actions.

[Mozam]

59. More than willing to accept

If an individual drives safely then it does not matter what type of vehicle you drive on the road. The word safety, includes knowing your vehicle and watching for all the clowns around you. By no means are clowns limited to SUV's, I've experienced the road rage of truckers (for driving the speed limit) and compact car drivers that think the 2-3 second gap with the vehicle in front of me at 65 mph is large enough to cut in without using a turn signal. Nose position must rule in their mind. Additionally, since moving to Virginia a few years ago I have noticed a much higher rate of vehicles (all types) running red lights and not using turn signals.

Your statement "everyone's eager to embrace their individual rights; few are as eager to assume any responsibility for the consequences of their actions." extends to all using the public roadways, not just SUV drivers.

What is apparent that you just don't like SUV's...that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. I have a different opinion. As long as I drive within the laws and exercise safety you should pay more attention to the clown speeding through traffic making numerous lane changes. That person is more of a threat to you than me in my SUV.

This whole post started with a drunk driver (law breaker) that happened to be driving an SUV.

By the way, I would not compare my flying an aircraft to you driving on the road. We occupy different space and I feel safer in the air than on the road because they give just any warm body a drivers license.

[primavera]

60. Nice try

But facts aren't just personal opinions over which people can reasonably disagree, like whether they prefer the color blue to the color green. If a SUV collides with a normal car, its vastly greater mass will cause vastly greater damage to the normal car and its occupants. That's a fact, not an opinion. If I am stuck driving behind a SUV, the massive frame of the SUV will ensure that my ability to see what's going on in front of me will be no better than if I were parked behind a building. If a SUV is driving behind me at night, its height off the ground will ensure that its headlights are essentially on continuous highbeam, blinding me and impairing my ability to drive safely. These facts have nothing to do with whether the individual driving the SUV is a reckless driver, they occur regardless of who is driving, even if that driver be the most conscientious and responsible driver on the planet, they are unavoidable hazzards posed by the very existence of the SUV on the road. So your attempt to dismiss the poor saftey record of SUVs to the characteristics of individual drivers does not hold water. SUVs do pose a greater risk to other drivers on the public roads, simply by virtue of what they are, not by virtue of who drives them.

And that's not even getting into the other indisputable facts that SUVs boast the worst fuel efficiency and emissions ratings and are therefore responsible not only for causing more deaths on the roads, but consuming inordinate amounts of nonrenewable fossil fuels and contributing excessively to the already serious problems of air pollution and global warming. Now, would you like to explain to me again what gives you the right to do all of this?

And once again, you attempt to let SUVs drivers off the hook for their irresponsible behavior by alluding to reckless drivers in all makes of vehicles who pose a greater hazzard to public safety, as if their dangerous, irresponsble conduct excuses your lesser offense. Sure, I'll agree, reckless drivers pose a greater threat to public safety than a non-reckless SUV driver. But so what? Simply that there exist even more irresponsible forms of conduct in the world doesn't mean that the irresponsible behavior in which you indulge is suddenly deserving of a medal. Don't worry, though, when I encounter a reckless driver, I will be sure, in the interests of fairness, to yell at him too! :)

[Mozam]

61. Just insert

Semi-tractor-trailer or motor home where ever you mention SUV.

Not asking for a medal, don't need one.

Your opinion that SUV drivers are irresponsible is just that, your opinion and what is it they say about opinions?

Breaking the law (drunk driving) is what killed the man, not the SUV.

If you don't like SUV's too bad, they are legal to drive, so get over it. I've already started looking at a medium duty custom Freightliner or equivalent and a new fifth wheel for my retirement travels. If you fear large vehicles, that's your problem to deal with. I refuse to be burdened by your fears.

Happy motoring!

[primavera]

62. Ah, the final refuge of the cornered

"Well too bad, that's just the way it is, so tough noogies." Guess that just about sums it up, doesn't it?

[Mozam]

68. Refuge...No...Cornered...try again

Just got tired of your illogical whining and crying.

You twist the fact that a drunk driver (illegal activity), who happened to be driving a SUV (legal activity) and committed vehicular manslaughter (illegal activity) to condemn anyone who exercises choice to engage in the perfectly legal activity of driving a SUV just because it does not fit within your opinionated view of the world.

It really frosts your buttons that I choose to live differently than you and you just can't stand it. Well, life is tough, get over it.

I'm not trying to tell you how to live. Set your life's standards as you see fit and as long as they do not break the law...I could not give a hoot.

It is your opinion that I should change to meet your standards. Well don't hold your breath waiting. I follow all the laws of the United States. Not your opinionated view on the "correct" way all citizens of this country should live. It is you that appeared cornered because I said you are not going to change the way I choose to legally live and you can't handle it.

You are right when it comes to your twisted logic...it is "Well too bad, that's just the way it is, so tough noogies." That does sum it up, so get over it.

[primavera]

83. Well, at least you're consistent

Once again, you respond to the fact that your lifestyle choice adversely affects those around you with nothing more than insults and dismissals. I'm sorry you're unable to recognize that your choices impact others and accept responsibility for them. I trust that when your grandchildren have to wear gas masks just to walk down the street, you'll assure them that your behavior was legal and you were only exercising your freedom of choice. I'm sure they'll appreciate it.

[hang a left]

84. It's just Hummer envy.......disguised

see it all the time.

[primavera]

88. Thanks, that's rich, I needed a good laugh!

[treepig]

41. drunk drivers and suv drivers kill almost the same number of people

about 15,000 to 16,000 per year in the usa. moreover, the trend is strongly upwards for suv's and slightly downwards for the drunks (of course, there is likely a significant overlap between the two groups).

[Mozam]

42. Please

show me your sources...I would like to see the data.

[BigDaddyLove]

45. You could check.........

www.myass.com/shitImadeup/SUV

[Mozam]

48. Good one

[FizzFuzz]

51. www.laughingmyassoff.com/gotnoass/willsueyoursoff

[treepig]

53. or you could take some initiative and look it up yourself

after all, i could be presenting cooked data and more importantly i'm just too damn lazy to find the stats myself right now

in any event the 15,000 suv-caused deaths was cited in an article in the jan 8 (or maybe 12) 2004 issue of the new yorker - the number of drunk driving fatalities, ~16,000/year can be easily found from a google search or the cdc website

[BigDaddyLove]

54. According to the National Traffic Safety Administration.......

In the year 2002 there were 17,419 people killed in alcohol related accidents, and 6,715 in SUV-related accidents....with SUV roll-overs accounting for 2,353 of those.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/TSFAnn/TSF2002Final.pdf

[Mozam]

58. If you are going to make a statement as fact

you should have your data to back up your statements. "i'm just too damn lazy to find the stats myself right now." Your pull it out of your ass and throw it against the wall to see if it sticks is a sad commentary regarding your credibility on future posts.

[ManneredChild]

43. I would love to the the support documentation for your claim

Nearly as many sober SUV drivers kill as many as drunks driving all other vehicles? I have never seen this report. Where is it located?

[treepig]

69. that never was my claim, instead i postulated that there was

a large overlap between the two groups.

anyhow, here as some statistics comparing the relative safety of various vehicles:

Consider the set of safety statistics compiled by Tom Wenzel, a scientist at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, in California, and Marc Ross, a physicist at the University of Michigan. The numbers are expressed in fatalities per million cars, both for drivers of particular models and for the drivers of the cars they hit. (For example, in the first case, for every million Toyota Avalons on the road, forty Avalon drivers die in car accidents every year, and twenty people die in accidents involving Toyota Avalons.) The numbers below have been rounded:

(editorial comment - focus on the second column - how many deaths a given vehicle causes to persons not in the vehicle - i.e., innocent victims)

Make / Model Type Driver Deaths Other Deaths Total

Toyota Avalon large 40 20 60

Chrysler Town & Country minivan 31 36 67

Toyota Camry mid-size 41 29 70

Volkswagen Jetta subcompact 47 23 70

Ford Windstar minivan 37 35 72

Nissan Maxima mid-size 53 26 79

Honda Accord mid-size 54 27 82

Chevrolet Venture minivan 51 34 85

Buick Century mid-size 70 23 93

Subaru Legacy/Outback compact 74 24 98

Mazda 626 compact 70 29 99

Chevrolet Malibu mid-size 71 34 105

Chevrolet Suburban S.U.V. 46 59 105

Jeep Grand Cherokee S.U.V. 61 44 106

Honda Civic subcompact 84 25 109

Toyota Corolla subcompact 81 29 110

Ford Expedition S.U.V. 55 57 112

GMC Jimmy S.U.V. 76 39 114

Ford Taurus mid-size 78 39 117

Nissan Altima compact 72 49 121

Mercury Marquis large 80 43 123

Nissan Sentra subcompact 95 34 129

Toyota 4Runner S.U.V. 94 43 137

Chevrolet Tahoe S.U.V. 68 74 141

Dodge Stratus mid-size 103 40 143

Lincoln Town Car large 100 47 147

Ford Explorer S.U.V. 88 60 148

Pontiac Grand Am compact 118 39 157

Toyota Tacoma pickup 111 59 171

Chevrolet Cavalier subcompact 146 41 186

Dodge Neon subcompact 161 39 199

Pontiac Sunfire subcompact 158 44 202

Ford F-Series pickup 110 128 238

from:

The New Yorker

January 12, 2004

SECTION: FACT; Commerce & Culture; Pg. 28

LENGTH: 4885 words

HEADLINE: BIG AND BAD;
How the S.U.V. ran over automotive safety.

BYLINE: MALCOLM GLADWELL

[BigDaddyLove]

86. "Other deaths"........

doesn't only mean people outside of the vehicle, it could be simply the person in the passenger seat.

Also, your stats don't shed light on which vehicle was at fault in the accident, only the results....so it doesn't necessarily follow that the SUV drivers were the cause of the accident, or that the SUV in question was the cause of the resulting deaths.

[Piperay]

44. Hit and runs aren't unique

to Hummers. I don't understand how anyone can just hit someone and then leave them there. :-(

[redqueen]

63. Drunk drivers suck as do Hummer drivers.

And Arnold sucks too.

"I'm very proud of the Hummer, because I created that industry. I went to the Hummer factory and said we should make this Hummer not only a military car but a civilian car," Schwarzenegger said in a Sept. 10 interview on "The O'Reilly Factor" on the Fox News Network.

[found object]

67. hummer drivers are a bunch of chicken shits

"...and the home of the brave." my ass.

[treepig]

70. some thoughts on the mindset of suv owners from ford's market research

In the history of the automotive industry, few things have been quite as unexpected as the rise of the S.U.V. Detroit is a town of engineers, and engineers like to believe that there is some connection between the success of a vehicle and its technical merits. But the S.U.V. boom was like Apple's bringing back the Macintosh, dressing it up in colorful plastic, and suddenly creating a new market. It made no sense to them.

Consumers said they liked four-wheel drive. But the overwhelming majority of consumers don't need four-wheel drive. S.U.V. buyers said they liked the elevated driving position. But when, in focus groups, industry marketers probed further, they heard things that left them rolling their eyes. As Keith Bradsher writes in "High and Mighty"-perhaps the most important book about Detroit since Ralph Nader's "Unsafe at Any Speed"-what consumers said was "If the vehicle is up high, it's easier to see if something is hiding underneath or lurking behind it."

Bradsher brilliantly captures the mixture of bafflement and contempt that many auto executives feel toward the customers who buy their S.U.V.s. Fred J. Schaafsma, a top engineer for General Motors, says, "Sport-utility owners tend to be more like 'I wonder how people view me,' and are more willing to trade off flexibility or functionality to get that." According to Bradsher, internal industry market research concluded that S.U.V.s tend to be bought by people who are insecure, vain, self-centered, and self-absorbed, who are frequently nervous about their marriages, and who lack confidence in their driving skills. Ford's S.U.V. designers took their cues from seeing "fashionably dressed women wearing hiking boots or even work boots while walking through expensive malls." Toyota's top marketing executive in the United States, Bradsher writes, loves to tell the story of how at a focus group in Los Angeles "an elegant woman in the group said that she needed her full-sized Lexus LX 470 to drive up over the curb and onto lawns to park at large parties in Beverly Hills." One of Ford's senior marketing executives was even blunter: "The only time those S.U.V.s are going to be off-road is when they miss the driveway at 3 a.m."

from:

The New Yorker

January 12, 2004

SECTION: FACT; Commerce & Culture; Pg. 28

LENGTH: 4885 words

HEADLINE: BIG AND BAD;
How the S.U.V. ran over automotive safety.

BYLINE: MALCOLM GLADWELL

[Mozam]

72. Tell me...

What type of person I'm supposed to be when I drive my mini van with my wife and children. You know, I never knew I was so messed up. It's amazing I learned to fly, served in the military for almost 20 years, went to war and remained married for 24 years while enduring numerous family separations. MORONIC GENERALIZATIONS. Then tell me what type of vehicle can pull a 12,500 pound travel trailer through the rockies...if you can point to another type of vehicle I'll listen.

[treepig]

73. you're the type of person who apparently misses important details

such as the detail that i never mentioned minivans.

but i will now, by quoting another blurb from the article:

S.U.V. buyers thought of big, heavy vehicles as safe: they found comfort in being surrounded by so much rubber and steel. To the engineers, of course, that didn't make any sense, either: if consumers really wanted something that was big and heavy and comforting, they ought to buy minivans, since minivans, with their unit-body construction, do much better in accidents than S.U.V.s. (In a thirty-five-m.p.h. crash test, for instance, the driver of a Cadillac Escalade-the G.M. counterpart to the Lincoln Navigator-has a sixteen-per-cent chance of a life-threatening head injury, a twenty-per-cent chance of a life-threatening chest injury, and a thirty-five-per-cent chance of a leg injury. The same numbers in a Ford Windstar minivan-a vehicle engineered from the ground up, as opposed to simply being bolted onto a pickup-truck frame-are, respectively, two per cent, four per cent, and one per cent.) But this desire for safety wasn't a rational calculation. It was a feeling. Over the past decade, a number of major automakers in America have relied on the services of a French-born cultural anthropologist, G. Clotaire Rapaille, whose speciality is getting beyond the rational-what he calls "cortex"-impressions of consumers and tapping into their deeper, "reptilian" responses. And what Rapaille concluded from countless, intensive sessions with car buyers was that when S.U.V. buyers thought about safety they were thinking about something that reached into their deepest unconscious. "The No. 1 feeling is that everything surrounding you should be round and soft, and should give," Rapaille told me. "There should be air bags everywhere. Then there's this notion that you need to be up high. That's a contradiction, because the people who buy these S.U.V.s know at the cortex level that if you are high there is more chance of a rollover. But at the reptilian level they think that if I am bigger and taller I'm safer. You feel secure because you are higher and dominate and look down. That you can look down is psychologically a very powerful notion. And what was the key element of safety when you were a child? It was that your mother fed you, and there was warm liquid. That's why cupholders are absolutely crucial for safety. If there is a car that has no cupholder, it is not safe. If I can put my coffee there, if I can have my food, if everything is round, if it's soft, and if I'm high, then I feel safe. It's amazing that intelligent, educated women will look at a car and the first thing they will look at is how many cupholders it has." During the design of Chrysler's PT Cruiser, one of the things Rapaille learned was that car buyers felt unsafe when they thought that an outsider could easily see inside their vehicles. So Chrysler made the back window of the PT Cruiser smaller. Of course, making windows smaller-and thereby reducing visibility-makes driving more dangerous, not less so. But that's the puzzle of what has happened to the automobile world: feeling safe has become more important than actually being safe.

[hang a left]

74. bite me!

:->

[Mozam]

76. Boy you told me

[treepig]

77. say what you will

but ford wouldn't be making billions off suv sales if they didn't know their customers.

[bobbyboucher]

89. That goes real well with that cross.

Brings even more weight to our h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y discussion above.

You are the toughest typer ever. :scared:

Please don't type mean to me. :scared:

[hang a left]

92. So because I am a spiritual person, that makes me perfect?

Sometimes people tick me off? I like to defend people that can't defend themselves.

[PapaClay]

80. Hmmm...

When I bought my Trooper in 94, my choice was based primarily on the fact that I was an active member of two volunteer groups: a high angle rough terrain rescue team and a cave rescue team. Many times, I've hauled rescuers and equipment to places that 2-wheel drive vehicles can't go. And none of the patients, patients' relatives, rescuers, or EMS personnel ever complained about my choice of vehicles.

Now I find out that the real reason I bought the Trooper was that I am insecure, vain, self-centered, self-absorbed, frequently nervous about my marriage, and lack confidence in my driving skills.

(chuckle)

Yeah and those are my good qualities.

:evilgrin:

[treepig]

99. perhaps suv owners are like lawyers

it's the 95% who spoil it for everybody?

anyhow, ford's market research for me, an aspire owner, is something like: dumb-ass illiterate financially challenged moran - you'd think that'd be a huge market segment so i'm not quite sure why they quite making aspires.

[depakid]

71. I almost feel sorry for this guy-

According to witnesses, the victim was deliberately pushed into oncoming trafic, and the hummer driver had no chance to avoid hitting him. Unfortunately for him, he'd been drinking (don't know how much, but at .08 a couple of microbrews is all it takes) and so probably panicked and left the scene. He's now facing felony charges- but he probably would have faced felony charges had he done the right thing and stayed, too.

This kind of thing could happen to anybody-

[Mozam]

75. An intelligent comment

and a fitting end to this forum.
later

[bobbyboucher]

81. Except a couple of micros won't

get you to .08. I believe that each beer gets you .02, and every hour your body takes out .02. So, even if the micro was .03 each, then he would have had to have three within and hour. Nice pace, if I do say so myself.

[BigDaddyLove]

90. So it was homicide..........

I'll bet the murderer also owns a Hummer.....only a Hummer owner would do something like this.

[bobbyboucher]

91. I'm not sure,

you could be right.

[depakid]

94. Yep-

I used to live literally a stones throw away from that intersection, and when I first read about this I thought to myself, man, I can just see that happening.

It does bring up an interesting legal question though- can the driver be charged with criminally negligent homocide or vehicular manslaughter, even though someone else pushed the victim in front of his car? In most places, the answer is probably yes- even if the driver was not technically at fault.

(I looked into it a little- Oregon requires causation, so unless the driver was speeding I don't think he'll be charged- but Oregon law looks to be an exception to the general rule).

So doing the right thing and stopping would have spared this guy a felony (provided that he didn't have two priors on his record).