Brazil says won't comply with Honduras ultimatum

[Joanne98]

Source: Reuters

PORLAMAR, Venezuela (Reuters) - Brazil's President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva said on Sunday his nation would not comply with a demand from Honduras' de facto government to decide the status of ousted President Manuel Zelaya in 10 days.

Lula, speaking to reporters during a summit in Venezuela, said international law protects Brazil's embassy, where Zelaya has been staying since returning to Honduras earlier this month. He demanded an apology from Honduras' de facto leader, Roberto Micheletti.



Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/newsMaps/idUSTRE58Q1MP20090927

[Ysabela]

1. Go Lula! I just hope that he's capable enough..

to defend the embassy when the coup decides to attack it with weapons other than sound blasting and blockade. When the coup does decide to attack the embassy, I hope Lula will defend it with military force.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

2. He is going to be waiting a long time for it

In a reasonable short number of weeks, there will be a new election in Honduras. There will be arguments will be over whether it was a fair election or not, but Zelaya can not be president after his term expires. IIRC the current Speaker who is acting President is not running for President and will not be President either. The new guy may elect to vacate the charges against Zelaya as a means to defuse the situation. It does seem the reasonable thing to do. Regardless, since his term will have expired, Zelaya will not longer have a claim to the presidency of Honduras.

[EFerrari]

5. The international community including the US has already said

they will not recognize the results of the election if the Pinochetis run it. We have withdrawn our support for their electoral commission as well.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

12. Regardless, its really going to crimp Zelaya since by law he can not be the President

I really do think the next one, who will be from his party, will do the reconciliation thing.

[martymar64]

34. Doubtful

The days of right wing coups getting off scot-free are drawing to a close, much to your dismay, I assume.

[DissedByBush]

9. Chavez is going to be pissed after the election

He wants his puppet back in charge of Honduras.

[L. Coyote]

16. What a load of crap!

Ride that burro back to your little village with the load you came in with.

[DissedByBush]

42. You didn't hear Chavez gloating

that he engineered this? You didn't know that the ballots for Zelaya's illegal referendum came from Venezuela?

Chavez wants not only to be dictator of Venezuela, but he has visions of his own style of imperialism.

[EFerrari]

44. Please provide a link to what you claim Chavez said.

(And good luck to you, lol.)

[DissedByBush]

78. No luck needed

http://vocero.com/noticia-31807-brasil_acusa_a_chvez_de_orquestar_plan_para_retorno_de_zelaya.html

http://www.elheraldo.hn/Especiales/Honduras%20en%20contra%20de%20la%20ilegalidad%20del%2004%20de%20septiembre%20de%202009/Ediciones/2009/09/25/Noticias/Fue-una-gran-operacion-de-engano-H.-Chavez

They're in Spanish so use your favorite translation utility if needed.

[EFerrari]

82. I don't need a translation utility. And those two articles do not show

President Chavez claiming that it was his plan. They say Brasil claimed that it was, they say he participated in it and they quote his remarks after it was successful.

Nowhere does he claim credit himself.

[DissedByBush]

96. You have got to be kidding

Your love for Chavez has you twisting logic so far it's unbelievable.

Chavez is helping his puppet get back into power, clear and simple. He'll admittedly even use subterfuge and commit crimes (illegally crossing borders to bring in someone wanted by the law) in order to do so.

[EFerrari]

98. Show me the words.

[DissedByBush]

101. "Fue una operación secreta, fue una gran operación de engaño"

Chavez seemed pretty proud of it.

[EFerrari]

102. That is not a claim of ownership. n/t

[DissedByBush]

106. From his boasting it sure sounded like it

He was rather proud of his little subterfuge.

[Judi Lynn]

107. Nope, he did NOT claim authorship of this action. You know that. n/t

[DissedByBush]

109. Oh yes, he was totally innocent

Your hero can do no wrong. I forgot about that.

[bitchkitty]

121. Evidently you think so,

since you're making things up out of thin air. You guys slay me.

[fascisthunter]

129. do you really believe all the shit you spew?

or do you do it just to spite folks here? Really weird...

[EFerrari]

110. The right wing comically tries to have it both ways.

When Zelaya went to the Brazilian embassy, a wingnut at the Christian Science Monitor claimed it was evidence that Zelaya had snubbed Chavez. At the same time, they're claiming that Zelaya is only a puppet of the omnipotent Chavez even though a group of Latin American leaders had to work closely together to help Zelaya get home.

And why is it that when an American president helps someone out, he is magnanimous but when Chavez helps someone, he is a power hungry conniver? Can you say double standard?

Have you even noticed that the murderous thugs in Honduras are torturing people to death or that they've now entirely suspended the rule of law?

Oh, noes! Hugo Chavez was happy about something! Threat Level Elevated!

[DissedByBush]

125. It is possible for Chavez to do good

But then Mussolini supposedly made the trains run on time, too.

[Flaneur]

128. You have got to be kidding!

Your hatred for Chavez has you twisting logic so far it's unbelievable.

Zelaya is nor Chavez's "puppet," but his ally.

Chavez is not an imperialist, but an anti-imperialist.

You accuse Chavez of "subterfuge"--oh, no!-- and committing crimes by helping Zelaya return to his own country, when we all know what the real crime committed in Honduras was: the unlawful coup.

I don't know about you, but I'm with Zelaya and Chavez...and the OAS and the UN.

[DissedByBush]

130. Lawful arrest of a president

Unlawful ejection of that president from the country. Like I say, they should have put him on trial instead of kicking him out.

"You accuse Chavez of "subterfuge""

Chavez boasts of the subterfuge. No accusation necessary.

"Your hatred for Chavez"

I have a hatred for anyone who has a lust for power and restricts the freedom of the people. That's why I hated Bush. That's why I hate Chavez.

[Judi Lynn]

57. You should learn to read for comprenhension. The ballots were PRINTED by a company

in Venezuela not remotely connected to the Venezuelan government.

Anyone who has bothered to keep up on things knew this LONG ago.

[DutchLiberal]

59. Turn off Fox News. It's getting to your brains.

[troubledamerican]

79. Shouldn't it be a RED FLAG when DUers parrot FOX News talking-points about Hugo or anyone?

[DissedByBush]

81. Sometimes, just sometimes

I guess the truth and Fox coincide.

I wouldn't know though because I don't watch Fox except to see Family Guy.

[EFerrari]

83. Unfortunately, this isn't one of those times. n/t

[DissedByBush]

97. It is one of those times if that's what Fox is reporting

Chavez helped him get back in country and gloated about it. Whatever spin Fox put on it is irrelevant since those are the facts as reported by news sources other than Fox.

[EFerrari]

99. A number of leaders helped Zelaya back into the country --

Morales, Funes, Lula, Chavez, and they were ALL happy that it worked. In fact, people who back the Honduran resistance to this murderous coups were ALL happy that it worked. What's your problem?

And you have yet to find a single quotation showing Chavez claiming credit for this operation. You can't find it because it doesn't exist. There was a whole group of them working together, thank goodness, your paranoid fantasies notwithstanding.

[DissedByBush]

103. Lula was in on it? Not likely.

The NYT says this: "Brazil’s foreign minister, Celso Amorim, also in New York, denied that Brazil had helped plan the return of Mr. Zelaya and his wife, Xiomara Castro, to Honduras. He said they had arrived at the embassy through “their own peaceful methods."

Looks like Chavez used Brazil.

So a whole group of them? Big conspiracy using covert operations to violate the sovereignty of a country and influence its internal politics? It kind of sounds like what the CIA likes to do down there.

[EFerrari]

105. And more utter crap. Do you think for a minute that Zelaya just wandered into

the Brazilian embassy? Wait -- you're the same poster who thought ballots printed in Venezuela was a socialist plot!

And in case you haven't noticed, ZELAYA is the president of Honduras and the golpistas aren't granted any legitimacy by anyone except the criminal leaders of Colombia and in Peru.

By your logic, we shouldn't have liberated France in WWII either.

[L. Coyote]

85. What a load of crap!

Ride that burro back to your little village with the load you came in with.

And don't bring another load!!

[Odin2005]

50. I'm not Chavez fan, but that is a load of crap.

[IsItJustMe]

56. You have been getting your news from Faux again I see. Don't believe anything from Faux news.

[harmonicon]

72. Do you not read, or do you just like spreading lies? nt

[martymar64]

3. Brazil needs to declare war on Honduras

I wonder how long the Pinochettis would hold out against Brazilian jets bombing Tegucigalpa.
Probably not very long. These fascists golpistas need to be dealt with harshly and without mercy.

[mitchtv]

4. that.s a bit harsh

How about a surprise visit by the Brazilian AF with some heavily armed marines to reinforce the embassy? and a naval visit?

[EFerrari]

6. Brazil is currently leading the UN Peacekeeping forces.

:)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

13. In name only...neither county has much in the way of armed forces

Only real arms freak in the region is Chavez

[martymar64]

18. And Uribe

Colombia is letting us build bases from which they can terrorize the rest of South America.

Uribe is a fascist with expansionist aims.

[L. Coyote]

21. There are more than enough arms in Latin America, thanks to the US mostly

Not exactly European or Middle Eastern budgets, but plenty of armaments:

Brazil 24 billion
Colombia 7 billion
Mexico 6 billion
Chile 5 billion
Peru 5 billion
Argentina 4.3 billion
Venezuela 4 billion

And notice how your prejudice against Chavez is misplaced.

Oh yeah, Honduras at 100 million ranks about 120th globally!!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

24. Look at the combat effectiveness and capabitly for power projection

Also check the currency of your numbers and the sources. The recent expenditures for tanks, aircraft, small arms, APCs, and SAMs by Venezuela are more that what you have listed.

[EFerrari]

41. What a bunch of predictable cr@p. We're opening new bases

in a country where finding mass graves filled by government backed paras is a weekly occurence but CHAVEZ is an arms freak?

Absurd.

[struggle4progress]

47. FACTBOX: Major arms deals by Latin American countries

... Venezuela's defense budget was $2 billion in 2008 ... BRAZIL: Spent a record $15.5 billion on defense in 2008, similar to Venezuela as a percentage of GDP ... Bogota spends the most on defense as a share of GDP in the region, around 4 percent. Last year military spending was record $6.6 billion ... http://www.reuters.com/article/reutersEdge/idUSTRE58F57820090916

[Judi Lynn]

60. Here's a great visual aid, posted by Ronniep624 on S. American defense spending:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/media/images/46373000/gif/_46373924_south_america_defence466.gif

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8255930.stm

Thanks for your information.

[Zorro]

66. Which country is internally combatting well-funded, well-organized narcoterrorists?

Is it Brazil?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

75. Actually Brazil is doing something very smart

The contracts it is letting require domestic partners and technology transfer. That is a major step up for their domestic industry and some of the funds stay in country. India and others have done the same.

[ronnie624]

100. The graph helps in understanding something else as well.

The right has no respect for objective facts and truth:

"Only real arms freak in the region is Chavez"

Notice how quickly this lie was repeated, even in the face of hard evidence to the contrary.

:hi:

[Peace Patriot]

114. Brazil has arms spending about ten times that of Venezuela!

Heck, where is that chart? I think it was IncaKola News (maybe saw it at BoRev?). Venezuela is a little blip on the chart on military expenditures next to Brazil. You really don't read much, do you?

-----

Ah, here it is! Read it and weep! Your thesis that Chavez is the "real arms freak" is so-o-o-o WRONG!

http://incakolanews.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2009-09-22T13%3A05%3A00-04%3A00&max-results=8

-----

Highly recommended: incakolanews.blogspot.com. They are aces with charts, facts, stuff like that.

[martymar64]

7. Chemical warfare against another countrys embassy is harsh too

If somebody gassed our embassy with chemical weapons, our reaction would be exactly that.

[mitchtv]

11. tell that to the diplomats held hostage in Teheran

they sat and waited til Reagan sold out

[ProgressiveProfessor]

19. So you buy into Zelaya's claim that Israeli mercenaries are bombarding him with high frequency

radiation and poison gas? That they are staging to invade the embassy and kill him?

On 9/25: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/americas/story/1252473.html
He told reporters he was feeling sick because toxic gases were seeping into the room where he, his family and some supporters have gathered. He also said he was being affected by high frequency radiation and that Israeli paramilitaries planned to kill him.

On 9/27: http://www.miamiherald.com/942/story/1248828.html
TEGUCIGALPA -- It's been 89 days since Manuel Zelaya was booted from power. He's sleeping on chairs, and he claims his throat is sore from toxic gases and "Israeli mercenaries'' are torturing him with high-frequency radiation.

"We are being threatened with death,'' he said in an interview with The Miami Herald, adding that mercenaries were likely to storm the embassy where he has been holed up since Monday and assassinate him.
.
.
.
Zelaya was deposed at gunpoint on June 28 and slipped back into his country on Monday, just two days before he was scheduled to speak before the United Nations. He sought refuge at the Brazilian Embassy, where Zelaya said he is being subjected to toxic gases and radiation that alter his physical and mental state.

Emphasis mine.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

26. Not at all, but your hyperbole needs to be pointed out

as well as that of others, including Zelaya.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

40. I have

That tear gas (presumably CS type) and an LRAD were used in the streets in front of the embassy is quite clear. Others here agree. That toxic gas and HF radiation are are being targeted at Zelaya in the embassy, which comes from an interview he gave, is unsubstantiated at best.

[martymar64]

54. Then why are they doing it right in front of the embassy?

Were there massive riots going on there? There is no compelling reason for them to use either unless it was directed against the Embassy.
So did you also cheer when Luis Posada Carriles blew up a Cuban passenger jet in Venezuela? He is a terrorist just like the ones you cheer for and is walking free in the US. It was Right Wing Cuban terrorists that killed JFK. Did you cheer that as well?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

58. Per multiple source, including Zelaya supporters, they were breaking up demonstrations

I disagree with them breaking up what were peaceful demonstrations. But they used both tear gas and an LRAD. See L Coyote's post #27

[Judi Lynn]

64. They also shot live rounds into the crowd to herd them around, using terror tactics.

They heavily beat even old people there, and all over Honduras.

They burst into houses and drag people away. There are people missing now throughout Honduras. They are tortuing people, and throwing them out near in the places where the people gather for protests.

That's a little nastier than "breaking up peaceful demonstrations."

[ProgressiveProfessor]

67. I do not disagree with what you said, remember the question that was asked...

Which was why were they using tear gas next to the embassy.

[Judi Lynn]

69. Reports are that they used it on the protesters, and also launched it into the embassy grounds.

They have used tear gas continually since the very first day of their filthy coup, along with massive violent beatings, torture, kidnapping of leftists, union workers, murder committed the rough way.

They have been condemned by the UN, the OAS, and every traditional human rights organization for their brutality against both the embassy staff and visitors, and the Honduran people.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

71. CS or toxic?

That CS/CN has been used is clear.

[Judi Lynn]

73. Here's a comment from a Brazilian official, from an article already posted at D.U.:

Honduran businessmen at center of coup dispute
By MARK STEVENSON, Associated Press Writer
Mark Stevenson, Associated Press Writer – Sat Sep 26, 7:41 pm ET


~snip~
Also Saturday, about 2,000 Zelaya backers marched through downtown Tegucigalpa in a daily show of support for the ousted leader and to protest what they claim was the release of toxic gas inside the Brazilian Embassy compound. Zelaya said that the unidentified gas caused headaches, nosebleeds and nausea among about 65 of his supporters inside.

Francisco Catunda, the charge d'affaires of the Brazilian Embassy, confirmed Saturday that some sort of gas had affected those at the Embassy.

"Yes it was released," he said in a rare interview outside the Embassy. "One of our officials felt it, felt symptoms."

Catunda added that some people "had throat problems, but I don't want to get into details."

[ProgressiveProfessor]

74. Classic CS gas...not toxic

[EFerrari]

46. Yes, he does. He's been arguing their side since Day 1. n/t

[L. Coyote]

27. This story is true, albeit the Miami Herald version is a shameful bit of "journalism"

They tear gassed the area to disperse the crowd and used sonic weapons.

I recommend reading or listening to the original Spanish to understand what Zelaya said and did not say!
And don't use the Miami Herald for anything outside the outhouse :rofl:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. I normally don't, but some here seem to be giving it credibility since Zelaya states

toxic gas and HF radiation are directed at him and are having some effect. I think claiming it was by Israeli mercenaries was a nice touch, don't you?

[martymar64]

32. This is something the Israelis would do

They love right wing repressive regimes, i.e. their solidarity with the apartheid government of South Africa.

[EFerrari]

49. The Herald garbled it. Zelaya was probably referring to an arms dealer

who was involved in Iran Contra and who has in the past been a go between.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x22843

You really should inform yourself better before sneering at what you don't understand.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

63. Asking for primary sources outside of the MH to back things up is not sneering

Some here have jumped on the toxic gas bandwagon, and the only primary source for it is the MH articles. The same ones that discuss Israeli mercenaries.

About the claim that Zelaya is saying Israeli mercenaries are doing it, given the multiple citations I doubt is garbled. It's either fact or fiction. Clearly one poster in this thread is already buying it. A review of the Spanish transcript would answer that one way or the other but I do not think it has been published. I hope strongly that it is fiction, otherwise Zelaya is seriously out to lunch and removes any chance this ending well.

[EFerrari]

77. Your "multiple citations" are all from that gusano propaganda rag.

The Miami Herald has to be the most corrupt news outlet in the country after Faux News.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

80. So you are saying that the claims of toxic gas being used posted here are all based on the MH?

Is that what you really mean to say?

[L. Coyote]

84. They tear gassed the embasy when they dispersed the crowd. That's the toxic gas!

It has been widely reported and photographed.
People in the embassy suffered from sore throats, including Zelaya.
And, it is a violation of the Geneva Conventions to gas an embassy!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

86. CS is not considered toxic gas

And yes tear gas has been widely reported. While one can not formally prove a negative, since there are no bodies, its most likely not toxic gas.

Honduran riot police/military will claim that the expended rounds on the embassy grounds were accidental or from rioters trying to throw rounds back. The protesters will say it was intentional. Quite literally the fog of battle caused by the gas itself.

Regardless of who is correct, its not toxic gas. CN or CS != Phosgene, Zyklon, nerve agents, etc.

For those wondering why I am making such a big deal out of this, consider that using lethal gas weapons is a MAJOR BIG DEAL. The world could or at least should, come down on that something fierce. They are not, it was tear gas.

Facts matter...

[L. Coyote]

87. Hey, let's start a semantics war!

Never mind, we already have one :rofl:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

88. Its much more than just semantics. One is used for crowd control, the other a crime against humanity

Those using the "toxic gas" meme are either mistaken or liars, which are you?

[L. Coyote]

92. toxic (adjective)

toxic
Function: adjective
Etymology: Late Latin toxicus, from Latin toxicum poison, from Greek toxikon arrow poison, from neuter of toxikos of a bow, from toxon bow, arrow
Date: 1664

1 : containing or being poisonous material especially when capable of causing death or serious debilitation
2 : exhibiting symptoms of infection or toxicosis
3 : extremely harsh, malicious, or harmful

[ProgressiveProfessor]

94. Seeing as how I have experienced it first hand...lets go with

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CS_gas as good start. There are multiple MSDS for it that can be found online. Its use is not against the Geneva Accords and is not considered a WMD. It really sucks to get into it. BTDT.

CS is nasty stuff, and is more dangerous than many know. If people are going to cry toxic or poison gas, show us the bodies. The difference is crucial.

[Peace Patriot]

115. And we are supposed to swallow the Miami Hairball because...?

:rofl:

[bertman]

8. Too many dead, maimed, innocent Hondurans if they follow your route. There are other

ways to deal with this that would not require violence. The first and best way would be for the United States to withdraw its support for Honduras' illegal government. Pull funding, pull the ambassador, and let the bastards twist in the wind.

It won't happen because Washington is never capable of unraveling the plans of International Corporatist thugs, only the plans of "terrorist" groups.

[mitchtv]

10. my guess is that they are mostly alumni

of the School of the Americas.Brazil should give them a vsry bad time(short of war)any breach of embassy should be met with a hemisphere wide detention of Junta diplomats.

[flamingdem]

14. Hugo Llorens was the ambassador and he left nt

[Judi Lynn]

20. Looks as if he's back! From the NY Times:

In Honduras, Talking, Takeout, but No Accord
By MARC LACEY and ELISABETH MALKIN
Published: September 26, 2009

~snip~
Tempting as that may be, leaders in the hemisphere are united in their fear that allowing the coup to stand sets a dangerous precedent in a region where coups have too long been the norm. The State Department suggested this month that it might not accept the election results if the Micheletti government remained in power to administer them. Other governments in the region, including Brazil, Mexico and Argentina, have issued even more iron-clad threats.

The warnings appear to have gotten through to the candidates running for office, who were selected before Mr. Zelaya was ousted but face the prospect of becoming, if they emerge on top, the president of a pariah state.

“I think they should take that statement very seriously,” Hugo Llorens, the American Ambassador to Honduras, told reporters in Tegucigalpa, the capital, on Friday.

More:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/world/americas/27honduras.html

[flamingdem]

31. Well then Zelaya can take refuge in the US Embassy! (not likely..) nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

35. A Miami Herald report states that the US embassy is denying that,

though they did use some embassy vehicle help extract some of the people from the Brazilian embassy. Take it as you will.

[Judi Lynn]

48. That would be epic! Hugo Llorens, connected to the Miami radical right-wing,

which is deeply involved with the gorilettis.

Micheletti got thrown out last week, from Miami, where he was with Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, and due to make a speech there later in October.

Very twisted alignment for some US State Department people. They should have ALL left with the other right-wing _Bush cretins.

[martymar64]

17. This is a decision for Brazil, not the US.

The Pinochettis attacked the BRAZILIAN embassy. If I was Lula, I would park aircraft carriers right off the Honduran coast and send cruise missles and jets to pound them into dust.
As far as casualties, the Pinochettis should have considered that before attacking the embassy with chemical weapons (ones that the US likely provided.)
The US should just butt out and let Lula deal with them.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

22. You do realize that Brazil has none of the weapons you theorize.

Where do you get the chemical weapons theory? Sure not the interview on Friday with Zelaya.

[martymar64]

28. They gassed the Brazilian embassy, gas is a chemical weapon.

Maybe Lula should use gas on the Honduran embassy. A little tit for tat.
Also a special forces op against the Pinochettis could work, a little bit of targeted assassination might work. It's apparent that the Honduran military is only adequate for killing it's own citizens and lightly armed embassies. So much for their School of the Americas training.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

37. Try reading the Geneva Accords and get back to us.

While you are at it, try post #27 by L Coyote.

[flamingdem]

33. Yehuda Leitner apparently supplied the toxic gas

http://www.cubadebate.cu/opinion/2009/09/26/honduras-el... /

I will just note this and look for this in English:

Patricia Rodas denounced on Friday that intelligence sources loyal to Zelaya said that the chemical and arms used to attack the embassy were provided by Alfacom and Intrecom, owned by the Israeli Yehuda Leitner who served as an intermediary to Israel.

Patricia Rodas, denunció este viernes 25 de septiembre en Wastington como “fuentes de la inteligencia militar leales a Zelaya” informaron que “los químicos y armas del asedio (de Brasil en Tegucigalpa) han sido proporcionadas por las empresas Alfacom e Intercom”, propiedad del ciudadano israelí Yehuda Leitner, que “sirvió de intermediario con Israel”.

Honduras: el proveedor de gases israelíes, un viejo socio de la conexión Bush-Posada

26 Septiembre 2009

Yehuda Leitner radicado en Honduras, denunciado como proveedor de armas y gases tóxicos a la dictadura hondureña de Roberto Micheletti, es un ex oficial del ejercito israelí quién perteneció en los años 80 a la red de contrabando del multimillonario Gerard Latchinian, que abastecía en armas a los cubanoamericanos Felix Rodriguez y Luis Posada Carriles en sus operaciones luego conocidas cómo escandalo Iran-Contra.

Rodriguez y Posada manejaban entonces la escandalosa operación de venta de droga contra armas, encubierta por Bush George padre, vicepresidente de la administración ultraderechista de Ronald Reagan.

La Canciller del gobierno constitucional de Honduras Patricia Rodas, denunció este viernes 25 de septiembre en Wastington como “fuentes de la inteligencia militar leales a Zelaya” informaron que “los químicos y armas del asedio (de Brasil en Tegucigalpa) han sido proporcionadas por las empresas Alfacom e Intercom”, propiedad del ciudadano israelí Yehuda Leitner, que “sirvió de intermediario con Israel”.

El ex agente de la DEA Celerino Castillo, relata el caso en su libro Powderburns como el agente CIA cubanoamericano Felix Ismael Rodriguez Mendigutía era dueño, por cuenta de la CIA, de Giro Aviation, registrada en Miami, se encontraba asociado a Latchinian quién luego afirmará haber actuado entonces por cuenta de la inteligencia norteamericana.

En 1984, Latchinian fue arrestado por contrabandear 10.3 millones de dólares en cocaína para financiar el asesinato del presidente electo hondureño Roberto Suazo Córdova.

La amplia investigación del tema realizada por la especialista Jane Haapiseva-Hunter , y publicada bajo el titulo Israeli foreign policy: South Africa and Central America, revela cómo Yehuda Leitner pertenecía entonces al “staff” de Latchinian, al lado de otro famoso traficante, el también oficial del ejercito israelí Emil Sa’ada.

En 1984, Félix Rodríguez fue quien dirigió la “compra” de la evasión de Posada de la cárcel venezolana donde estaba recluso en espera de su juicio por la destrucción en vuelo de un avión civil cubano, para integrarlo a sus operaciones de narcotráfico y de contrabando de armas.

Rodríguez estaba entonces en contacto telefónico diario con la oficina de Bush, donde estaban los coordinadores de la operación secreta encabezados por Oliver North.

El arresto de Latchinian no perturbó en nada las operaciones de la red donde operaba Leitner hasta que ocurrió en octubre de 1986, el derribo de un avión sobre territorio nicaragüense y donde sobrevivió el piloto Eugene Hasenfus quién reveló la existencia de la operación Ilopango.

En este mismo periodo y con las mismas fines, Leitner también representó a otro proveedor israelí de los Contras, la firma ISDS.

Según confesiones del propio Latchinian, hoy encarcelado con una sentencia de 30 años en Indiana, el personal de ISDS entrenó los escuadrones de la muerte hondureños y a mercenarios de la Contra nicaragüense en técnicas de terror.

Leitner fue directamente involucrado en el entrenamiento de los asesinos del Batallon 316 entonces bajo las ordenes de general Gustavo Alvarez Martínez, un connotado criminal de guerra.

Las especialidades enseñadas por los instructores de quien ahora provee gases tóxicos y otros equipos a la dictadura de Micheletti eran los secuestros, la tortura y los asesinatos salvajes

Yehuda Leitner huyó de Honduras en 1986 después de que se conoció su relación con el escándalo Iran-Contra.

El “gran socio” de Bush padre, Félix Rodriguez es hoy jefe de la terrorista Brigada 2506, la asociación de ex mercenarios de la invasión fracasada de Playa Girón mientras Posada vive en Miami, beneficiándose de todos los privilegios judiciales otorgados a un ex sicario de la CIA.

El ex agente de la DEA “Cele” Castillo ha sido recientemente condenado a tres años de cárcel en Texas por posesión de armas no registradas, un caso manejado por un fiscal intimo de los Bush, lo que resulta ser una clara venganza de la red mafiosa que se atrevió a desenmascarar.

Gary Webb, el periodista quién denunció el escándalo Iran-Contra, murió el 10 de diciembre 2004, con dos (2) balas de revolver calibre 38 en la cara. El oficial de justicia que cerrró el caso concluyó a… un suicidio.

Yehuda Leitner, quién se declara soltero, “Ingeniero de Seguridad”, prospera más que nunca en Honduras.

Tiene acceso directo a la oficina del dictador Micheletti y de sus especialistas de la represión.

Maneja sus operaciones de proveedor de muerte desde sus oficinas de la Colonia El Prado, calle Golan,

[ProgressiveProfessor]

39. Why do you believe it was toxic gas, vice CN or CS?

Surely you are not basing it on what Zelaya said...see post #19.

[EFerrari]

51. Why do you believe what you read in the Miami Herald?

You're using entirely the wrong venue to discredit Zelaya unless you want to make yourself look ridiculous into the bargain.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

55. Lots of reports are about tear gas, looking for a credible one for toxic gas

MH is not my favorite source but its a primary one for the toxic gas and radiation claim by Zelaya which many here are supporting as true as far as the gas is concerned.

Facts matter, was it CS or something else? Was it overflow from the street or a direct attack on the embassy.

[Judi Lynn]

61. Now how would people locked inside a building determine that?

You need to start examining the information available much more closely if you haven't learned skepticism for corporate news products, and totally question a newspaper which caters directly to a reactionary, radical, violent right-wing element of Cuban and Veneuzelan expatriots in South Florida.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

62. Which is why I am asking for those here who claim there is toxic gas in use for their sources

Tear gas *everyone* is reporting. Looking for sources OUTSIDE of the MH that back the toxic gas claim

Kits for gas detection and classification are relatively cheap. Police departments have them in the US.

[Judi Lynn]

65. The people locked inside the embassy are hardly in a place to step out, buy a "kit."

The media IN HONDURAS has been silenced. All but the most pro-coup broadcasters, papers, radio stations, have been taken out, with the exception of two broadcasters who are continually knocked out of service, their power cut, or, as in one case, soldiers who came into their buildings and poured chemicals over their equipment and ruined it.

As you would know if you had spent a decent moment's research, ordinary news is NOT GETTING OUT of Honduras in any conventional manner.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

70. If the media is silenced, then were are the toxic gas claims coming from?

Some here have sure lapped it up.

Gas detectors/testers are in every foreign US diplomatic facility. Perhaps its projection on my part, but given the low cost I would have expected them in most diplomatic facilities worldwide.

The question remains open. Was toxic gas used in or around the Brazilian embassy in Honduras and what is the proof?

[EFerrari]

90. Juan Almendares said there was and he's an internationally known

human rights activist.

http://hondurasoye.wordpress.com/2009/09/25/honduras-national-resistance-update-925-real-news-network-reports-it-all/

The Pinochetis didn't let the press or Red Cross in until days later. But I'm sure that's just a coincidence.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

93. What they are describing is CS gas, not considered toxic (though it may not feel that way)

I have experienced CS myself. It burns like hell and you think you are dying. OC is worse, BTDT too.

That others outside the normal media are getting reports out are a good thing, despite the technical inaccuracies.

[EFerrari]

95. A young woman, Wendy Elizabeth Avila, went to the hospital for her symptoms

and died of pneumonia, according to DUer magbana's report on the ground:

http://hondurasoye.wordpress.com/2009/09/27/honduran-national-resistance-update-927/

[L. Coyote]

15. Time to give the coup an ultimatum! Get out now, or go to jail forever.

Too bad Pinochet isn't around to offer political amnesty :rofl:

[Judi Lynn]

23. Lula to Honduras: Brazil Won't Accept Ultimatum, Return Zelaya to Power!

Lula to Honduras: Brazil Won't Accept Ultimatum, Return Zelaya to Power!
Written by José Wilson Miranda
Sunday, 27 September 2009

The president of Brazil, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, told this Sunday, September 27, in Venezuela, that Brazil will not accept the ultimatum of ten days given his administration by de-facto government of Honduras.

The Honduran leadership warned the Brazilian government to define the situation of deposed president Manuel Zelaya, who has found shelter at the Brazilian embassy in Tegucigalpa. They have asked in the past that Brazil hand the ousted leader to the Honduran justice or give him asylum in Brazil.

"I won't accept any ultimatum from a government responsible for a coup," Lula told reporters in the Venezuelan town of Porlamar where he went for a South-America/Africa summit hosted by Venezuelan leader, Hugo Chavez. Moreover he indicated that he will not negotiate with a government that "usurped power."

Once again the Brazilian chief of state declared that Zelaya is Honduras's legitimate president. Lula also reminded that the ousted leader is a host of the Brazilian embassy in capital Tegucigalpa.

"Zelaya was ousted from power the most shameful way possible", said Lula. "For me, the solution is simple: the coupsters should leave the presidential palace."

More:
http://www.brazzilmag.com/content/view/11256/

[Downwinder]

36. Seems like it would be a lot easier to issue Interpol warrants.

[Joanne98]

38. Honduras rejects visiting OAS delegation: official

TEGUCIGALPA (Reuters) - The Honduran de facto government on Sunday refused to allow a delegation of the Organization of American States entry into the country, a Honduran immigration official said.
The OAS suspended Honduras in July after troops ousted President Manuel Zelaya and sent him into exile. Zelaya sneaked back into the country last week and is holed up in the Brazilian Embassy in Tegucigalpa.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE58Q2BR20090927

[ProgressiveProfessor]

43. Bad Move...

Reuters has a couple of articles supporting that now. On Friday MH quoted Micheletti as having asked them to come. http://www.miamiherald.com/news/americas/story/1252473.html


He denied reports that he was blocking access to a group of Organization of American States foreign ministers to visit the country. The team, he said, should arrive next week. ``I'm the one who invited them,'' Micheletti said.

[Downwinder]

45. So tomorrow is it going to be another postponement.

I thought they had fixed the communication time delay between Honduras and Washington.

[EFerrari]

52. One one hand they're pressuring Lula and on the other, dragging their feet.

Keep it up, assholes! Let the world see who you are.

[Judi Lynn]

68. Don't forget their coup "foreign minister" who racially attacked President Obama.

U.S. ambassador condemns statement of Honduras' interim foreign minister
2009-07-08 09:09:25

TEGUCIGALPA, July 7 (Xinhua) -- U.S. ambassador to Honduras Hugo Llorens on Tuesday condemned the disrespectful comments made by Honduran interim Foreign Minister Enrique Ortez Colindres about U.S. President Barack Obama.

Colindres referred to Obama as a "black man who does not know where Tegucigalpa is" in an interview regarding the crisis in Honduras.

"As the official and personal representative of the president of the United States of America, I convey my deep outrage about the unfortunate, disrespectful and racially insensitive comments by

Mr Enrique Ortez Colindres about President Barack Obama," the U.S. ambassador said in a statement.

"These comments are deeply outrageous for the American people and for me personally," Llorens said.

More:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-07/08/content_11671507.htm

http://1.bp.blogspot.com.nyud.net:8090/_M5mQhY1RgcI/SkqQTe5_rfI/AAAAAAAAE0U/ePMO1L62jqQ/s400/r1600211569.jpg

Coup clown Micheletti swearing in fellow coup clown "Foreign Minister" racist Enrique Ortez.

[EFerrari]

76. I had forgotten. Scum. n/t

[mitchtv]

89. "negrito"

a bit more than "black man"

[EFerrari]

91. It's always context. But in this one, signal disrespect at best. n/t

[Odin2005]

53. Yay, Lula!

Fuck the Fascist bastards!

[Judi Lynn]

104. The coup leader has suspended their constitution for 45 days, news broken by Downwinder.

Honduras Coup Leader Micheletti Decrees 45-Day Suspension of Constitution
Posted by Downwinder

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x22965

[DissedByBush]

108. This is the problem I have

First and foremost I go for rule of law and freedom. I don't care who the players are and the actual politics are secondary.

So first I saw a president looking to change the constitution in a power grab. The legitimate Supreme Court, the legitimately elected Congress and the military charged by law with holding elections all said Zelaya was committing illegal acts.

So I go with that. Good day for freedom and law. By their laws there was no coup. There was only the deposing of a power-hungry criminal operating under outside influences.

Then the asshats had to go and start all this undemocratic stuff. Now they lose my sympathy and it looks like Honduras had the choice of bad or bad. Not much of a choice, but common in that part of the world.

I do wonder how things would have gone had the world recognized the decisions of the Honduran government, not treated them as usurpers and agreed to monitor the upcoming elections. Remember, only the post of president has changed, not the others. But this new president has to go too, and fast.

[Judi Lynn]

111. It would be useful for you to look through this article posted by Downwinder:

Honduras: Lawyers Question Basis of Zelaya Ouster
Written by Jennifer Moore
Friday, 25 September 2009

Since June 28 when the Honduran military shot their way through the backdoor of President Zelaya's private residence, kidnapping and forcibly expatriating him to Costa Rica, the de facto regime has maintained that Zelaya's removal was a constitutional transfer of power. For its part, the Obama Administration has condemned the ouster, but stopped short of defining the events as a military coup. By US law, this would require the suspension of the majority of aid to the Central American country.

However, a preliminary report by an international delegation of lawyers that visited Honduras in late August affirms that a military coup is what took place. The report considers the lack of an independent judiciary in Honduras as part of the context in which this occurred and points to powerful economic and political groups opposed to social advances promoted by President Zelaya as the driving force behind the coup.

The report, drafted by members of the American Association of Jurists, the National Lawyers Guild, the International Association of Democratic Lawyers and the International Association Against Torture, further states that the military overthrow was a clear violation of Honduras' 1982 Political Constitution. Among various constitutional articles that the report claims were violated includes Article 102, which states: "No Honduran may be expatriated nor delivered by the authorities to a foreign state." <1>

Building upon observations pertaining to human rights violations detailed in the report, the National Lawyers Guild released a press bulletin on Tuesday concerning the de facto government's most recent abuses since Zelaya arrived at the Brazilian Embassy in Tegucigalpa on Monday. Coup leader Roberto Micheletti used Zelaya's reutrn as a pretext to unleash a new wave of aggression by his security forces against Hondurans opposed to the coup. The Guild also expressed special concern for threats to the life of the democratically-elected president.

Zelaya's arrival, it concludes, should motivate the US to denounce the violence, further isolate the de facto regime and "no longer avoid officially declaring a military coup d'etat." The Guild also urges UN bodies, including the UN Security Council and the UN Economic and Social Council, to "initiate proceedings for an economic blockade" and to "consider deploying a peacekeeping mission to facilitate the return to power of the legitimate constitutionally elected government." The UN already announced Wednesday that it would withdraw all support for upcoming elections on November 29th.<2> The UN Security Council is also anticipated to make an announcement this week.<3>

Dangerous Territory: Constitutional Reform

The most immediate trigger for the coup was a non-binding, national opinion poll scheduled for June 28. It was decreed by Zelaya under the Citizens' Participation Law, notes the delegation report, and would have taken place the same day as he was ousted. Hondurans would have answered the following question: "Are you in agreement that during the 2009 general elections that a fourth ballot box be installed in which the people will decide whether to strike a Constituent Assembly? Yes/No."

According to the report, the opinion poll was a "determining factor" in the coup. They explain that "powerful economic and political sectors including those who control the Honduran media vehemently opposed the move and recurred to the courts and the legislature to put in motion a very accelerated lawsuit, lacking assurances of due process in order to justify actions without grounds against President Zelaya, who they intended to try." Other reforms Zelaya was enacting which enraged to the business class included the rise in the minimum wage, the exclusion of intermediaries from state fuels purchases and the decision to purchase oil from the cheapest provider - the Venezuelan oil company Petrocaribe.

The speed with which the Supreme Court processed legal measures to block the survey raised suspicions among the delegation. "In contrast to the speed with which they acted against the constitutionally elected President Zelaya, (the Supreme Court) has not made any decisions with regard to any legal process since then - up until this report was drafted (on September 12th) - to sanction those responsible for violations of the constitution and legal order (as a result of the coup)."

Furthermore, one delegation member comments, "the de facto government clearly avoided using its legal power to arrest Zelaya when he tried to re-enter Honduras, compounding the violation of rule of law and furthering the appearance that there is no basis for claims that Zelaya committed crimes justifying his removal from office and claims that he lacks support within Honduras."

Concerns over weaknesses in Honduras' judiciary have been raised before. The Inter American Human Rights Commission has criticized the country for lack of an independent and efficient judiciary, notes another member of the delegation. Furthermore, a report from Freedom House states, "The judicial branch of government in Honduras is subject to intervention and influence by both the elected branches and wealthy private interests." <4> The US State Department profile of Honduras also mentions that "Although the constitution and law provide for an independent judiciary, the judicial system was poorly funded and staffed, inadequately equipped, often ineffective, and subject to patronage, corruption, and political influence." <5>

Also worrisome to the delegation was the contrast found between the ease with which Zelaya's ouster was executed and the delays in addressing civil society requests for habeas corpus and constitutional protection as a result of police and military excesses over the last three months.

More:
http://upsidedownworld.org/main/content/view/2132/1/

[EFerrari]

112. They SAID he was trying to change the constitution in a power grab

and you believed it.

He did no such thing. He very legally wanted to poll the voters to see if they favored a constitutional convention. There was not a single word about him or his term in that poll.

The court had no legal ground to deny that vote and the Congress is barred from interpreting the Constitution by Honduran law. Zelaya was in the right from the beginning.

These people didn't go and do undemocratic stuff -- they started out that way by trying to deny the voters a chance to vote on the level of their own participation in their own democracy. You don't hear any human rights or social justice advocate in Honduras supporting this coup, do you? Not a single one.

[DissedByBush]

117. They are the government, they are the interpreters of the constitution

If they SAID it then it was legally true in Honduras.

This was two branches of government against one in a checks and balances system.

The executive lost.

[EFerrari]

119. Nope. The Honduran Supreme Court found years ago

that their Congress has no power to interpret the constitution or to remove the executive so what Pinocheti is claiming he did in the legislature is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and ILLEGAL.

[DissedByBush]

124. Interesting

But I thought the Supreme Court ordered him arrested based on his illegal actions.

[Peace Patriot]

116. "...a president looking to change the constitution IN A POWER GRAB" ???

Where did you get that information?

And have you read the US Lawyers' Guild report on the Honduran judiciary?

I suggest you get informed before you form your opinions.

-----

"...a preliminary report by an international delegation of lawyers that visited Honduras in late August affirms that a military coup is what took place. The report considers the lack of an independent judiciary in Honduras as part of the context in which this occurred and points to powerful economic and political groups opposed to social advances promoted by President Zelaya as the driving force behind the coup.

"The report, drafted by members of the American Association of Jurists, the National Lawyers Guild, the International Association of Democratic Lawyers and the International Association Against Torture, further states that the military overthrow was a clear violation of Honduras' 1982 Political Constitution. Among various constitutional articles that the report claims were violated includes Article 102, which states: "No Honduran may be expatriated nor delivered by the authorities to a foreign state.""

http://upsidedownworld.org/main/content/view/2132/1/

-----

For whose idea the Constituent Assembly is, I suggest NarcoNews, reporting on the teachers' union meetings, from Honduras. Sorry, don't have the url. You'll just have to wade through a lot of real journalism on Honduras to find the answer.

[DissedByBush]

118. I know the surviving government didn't turn out right either

They should have thrown Zelaya in jail awaiting trial. They should have shown themselves to be supporters of freedom.

But for starters, what would Zelaya need a convention to change? The basic system of a democratic government is among the things requiring a convention. Do you think he wanted to ditch that? Or maybe it was the one-term maximum for presidents? There's not much else that can't be changed by the president and the elected representatives of the people through a simple vote.

[L. Coyote]

113. Tear Gas Kills Honduran boy

It seems tear gas is toxic to humans!


http://www.opednews.com/articles/Honduran-Crisis-Explodes--by-Laura-Carlsen-090924-473.html

..... police are even raiding hospitals to capture wounded demonstrators after beating them:

"I just got back from the hospital where I took my brothers who were arrested by the police after the march and savagely beaten, while the police screamed that this way they would learn not to go around in marches and that Mel couldn't save them from a beating. One of my brothers (21 years old) has bruised lungs from the beating and the other has two broken hands... They also detained several members of Feminists in Resistance who were later released because they were carrying their identification as part of the Women's Human Rights Observatory. What seems incredible to me is that the police are taking people (mostly youths) from the hospital... They are going into the hospitals every two hours, to see who they'll take out. WE CAN'T ALLOW THIS! The Red Cross hasn't done anything, but there are nurses and members of the resistance inside the hospital who helped us a lot."

Reports pour in of persecution by police on motorcycles, hunting down protesters like animals. An eight-year old boy became the latest casualty—not coincidentally, all on the side of the people against the coup—when he died Wednesday of tear gas asphyxiation.

Juan Almendares, of the Honduran Center for Torture Prevention, reports that Honduras has become "the largest prison in the world." He notes, "There is a permanent state of siege here. Human rights organizations and medics are not even allowed to attend to the tortured and wounded. The office of the Committee for Families of the Disappeared was bombed with tear gas... Children and the sick in the hospitals are undernourished since with the curfew, which is a death warrant, they do not receive food and are dying of hypoglycemia."

These facts are not disputed and have been corroborated and denounced in recent days. Amnesty International called the situation "alarming" and called for the de facto regime to "stop the policy of repression and violence and instead respect the rights of freedom of expression and association." The organization added, ...........

[EFerrari]

120. Two reporters from Guatemala were stomped at the Globo offices today.

Guatemala is demanding an apology. And the NYTs ran the story about the two journalists who were tortured by cigarette burns and thrown back out on the street to send a message to the publisher of El Liberador.

The Pinochetis drop their civilized mask under stress pretty quickly.

[Judi Lynn]

123. Thanks for this info. Hadn't heard it. Hope Guatemala will be able to apply some heat. n/t

[EFerrari]

126. Sorry -- here's the link:

Guatemala condemns attacks on journalists in Honduras
+ -
11:10, September 29, 2009

The Guatemalan government on Monday condemned attacks on Guatemalan journalists by Honduran police and the interim Honduran government's closure of a radio station and a TV channel, local media reported.

Rafael Espada, vice president of Guatemala, said his country would present a protest to the United Nations and the Organization of American States.

Two Guatemalan journalists were pushed to the ground and stamped on by security forces during an early hours raid on Radio Globo in Honduras, Espada said.

The two journalists are currently in Guatemala's embassy in Honduras and will return home soon.

http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/90851/6772642.html

[Judi Lynn]

127. It's open season on everyone inside the country who doesn't bow down to them.

Sounds as if they've brought back their death squads. SOA instructors should be proud of their students.

Thanks for the info., and the link. Hope Guatemala won't forget the treatment of their journalists.

[Judi Lynn]

122. Horrifying brutality. They've gone completely wild against the people of Honduras.

How can they imagine they won't eventually have to pay for this savagery?

Thank you for this information. It's something to keep for future use.