Bush favours UNSC seat for India

[mule_train]

Source: Times of India

Bush favours UNSC seat for India
PTI 31 October 2009, 05:26pm IST
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NEW DELHI: Pitching for a greater role for India globally, former US President George W Bush today favoured its entry into the expanded UN Security
Council, which he acknowledged had got caught into political complications over questions like size and criteria.

Bush, whose tenure saw a transformation of Indo-US ties, also "heartily" supported President Barack Obama's remarks that America's relations with India should not only be one of the most important ones but must be one of the best ones.

He favoured a push to the strategic ties and review of the immigration rules, particularly in the context of H1B visas to allow skilled workers, most of whom come from India, to contribute to the US economy on a long-term basis.


Read more: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Bush-favours-UNSC-seat-for-India-/articleshow/5183477.cms

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looks like Bush has regrets about his presidency - that he didnt do enough damage

"
He favoured a push to the strategic ties and review of the immigration rules, particularly in the context of H1B visas to allow skilled workers, most of whom come from India, to contribute to the US economy on a long-term basis.
"

what is it about the politicians in BOTH parties, who seem obcessed with destroying AMerican jobns no matter how bad things get?

[Demeter]

1. Who CARES What You Think, Boy George?

If indeed you think at all, which has never been proven by word or deed.

[ixion]

22. my thought as well

who give a crap what that idiot thinks, if he even thinks at all, which I highly doubt.

[bluestateguy]

2. India steals our jobs

nt

[JonQ]

4. Dey tuk er jeobs!

[No Elephants]

10. Are you related to Write Down, or are you two simply kindred spirits?

[Nostradammit]

31. They do seem to work in tandem, don't they?

[treestar]

39. You're attacking the posters, not their arguments

As I tell freeps when they do it, it proves you lost the argument.

[Nostradammit]

43. Well, it's hard to argue with, "Dey tuk er jeobs! "

So I guess I lost that argument.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

51. no. sometimes it mean a non relevant issue should be treated as such

[scentopine]

5. Wall Street Sells Intellectual Property and Jobs To India for

pennies on the dollar. No benefits, employees have minimal legal protections, forced overtime, no hassles. At companies in India if you get sick you get fired. Fortune 500 is outspending US public budgets training people in Asia (people who have limited or no education and skills).

While Wall Stgreet pays billions to themselves because they believe you have to pay the most to keep the best, they demand every other company in USA outsource to India for pennies on the dollar.

To hell with Bush and India and Wall Street. How about some investment in USA citizens for a change. Let India learn how to build things by themselves without some sleazy Wall Street fucker trying to get rich quick by selling us out.

[Captain Hilts]

7. Indians take college-educated folks jobs. China steals the rest, but no one cares. Too busy

complaining about Mexico.

[amandabeech]

80. I care. So do a lot of people here.

Maybe you haven't been reading the same threads that I have.

Nonetheless, I usually correct those who use NAFTA as short-hand for bad trade agreements, but in a nice way without negative implications.

[Posteritatis]

46. Therefore they should have no say in geopolitics! Makes sens - no, wait. (nt)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

48. yeah, which is clearly relevant to the UN, after all the world does revolve around the US

and not the sun

[Vehl]

55. Indeed!

I'm at a loss to understand how India's push for a UN security council seat has anything to do with what American companies do regarding foreign workers. :shrug:


Any topic about India brings in these comments here in DU...I bet someone will find a way to make a H1-b comment even if the news article is about ..say... "A cat with three eyes was found in India"

[La Lioness Priyanka]

64. LOL

:hi:

[samsingh]

67. i'm always surprised at how much anger there is towards India on DU

i rarely see any positive comments towards India.

India is the world's largest Democracy. The nation struggles with religious strife, over-population, and external terrorism. All the while, it has remained committed to Democratic values.

[Arkana]

78. I'm gonna have to agree with this.

What with being in IT and all.

My work has left me with an irrational hatred of Indian people and the hyperactive, type-A personality.

It's horrible, I know. Flame away.

[liberalpragmatist]

96. So, what exactly?

Anger towards India, or do you automatically dislike anybody who's Indian?

[JonQ]

3. It kind of makes sense

India is a growing power and will likely be a superpower, or at least major regional power (in a very significant region) in the near future. Strengthening ties with them would benefit us. Especially if they could serve as a democratic and friendly counterbalance to china in that part of the world.

[scentopine]

9. How much more should we give to Asia?

See my post above - I've spent 50 years watching wholesale destruction of US industry in order to keep Mexico happy, India happy, China happy.

In the end, it is really about keeping Wall Street happy.

We need another way to have good relations with these countries without raping and pillaging US jobs and technology. Now health care is being outsourced. There is a very good chance your x-ray is being read in India for $10 dollars. Your doctor's office will charge you $250 for this.

I think its important to have good national relations with Asia, but Wall Street has taken a scythe and slaughtered several million high tech jobs - engineering, manufacturing, health care, and literally sold them to India for pennies on the dollar. What we are left with is 70% to 80% defense driven technology development.

Wall Street doesn't give a damn that these jobs are sold on discount since they carve out a huge overhead premium for the outsourcing deals. This goes back to Congress and Executive branch in form of campaign contributions.

Its a vicious cycle of free-market uber alles cannibalism that neo-dems/neo-libs/neo-cons (hard to tell the difference these days) embrace. The "purity" of the free market. 100% pure bullshit.

No one in congress is willing to risk loss of funding from Fortune 500 to stand up for US jobs. Its like we are bringing back a culture of slavery - just have someone else do the work, and we'll collect the cash.

[JonQ]

17. Give to asia?

I think they're doing alright on their own. They are experiencing growth and we can't do much about it. It's not really up to us.

[scentopine]

20. It is 100% because of us that they have growth - where do you think

they learned all their engineering and manufacturing skills? We trained them. We sold them business and technology for pennies on dollar. Trillions of intellectual propoerty from software and software design, to chip design, to foundry construction, metallurgy, computers, telecommunications, wireless design, networking, automotive, energy - you name it. Almost 100% trained and educated by USA. Why? Wall Street loves a cheap labor market. No benefits, no legal protections, no accountability, no hassles for US based CEOs. They don't care how it gets done. It just needs to get done.

So I respectfully disagree that their growth is independent of USA and self-generating. It is 100% because of us and our greed for cheap labor. That is unless you are Wall Street which believe they need to pay themselves the most because pay=quality, while demanding everyone else outsource to cheap labor and fighting against laws to increase minimum wage here in USA.

The real motivation is that Asia is funding our recovery because they hold trillions in T-bills that we happily sold them to finance our rampage on Wall Street. Now they can hold us hostage and demand an even greater share of us employment base. Otherwise, we fear they'll start selling off the T-bills causing global panic, the sequel.

There is so much greed that we won't be able to stop the inevitable. And democrats are for the most part happy to trade our nations skills and industry to Asia in return for the ability to buy cheap plastic crap at Walmart.

But's let's acknowledge history as it happened. Its 50 years in the making and US "investment" in Asia far outstrips investment in USA.

[JonQ]

32. Do you think the US invented industrialization?

or agriculture?

Every country has stolen economic ideas from another.

We "stole" factory jobs from europe because it was cheaper to do it here. Aren't you ashamed?

Yeah they steal blatantly from us, so what? Penalize those companies that do this and move on.

[scentopine]

52. I never said anything about anything being stolen.

Or maybe you meant to respond to a different post, since I was hardly arguing that they "stole" anything. But just in case...

Our economy was not stolen. It was worse than stolen. Stolen would imply that we recognize that that education, technology and manufacturing technologies are the backbone of any leading nation and something that should be protected and valued. And if stolen, we would work hard to get it back. No, the neo-dems and neo-libs and neo-cons all decided that everything is for sale. Including our intellectual property. So they sold it. Nearly all of it. We sold it at an absurd discount and ripped out the livihood of 20 or 30 million people. All for cheap wages in places of the world where this is no justice for the working class. No health benefits and utter poverty.

Nope, they didn't steal it. We sold it to them. For cheap. And what we didn't sell, we just gave to them. And just like the cheap whore they are, Wall Street spent it all. So its back to the streets, whoring our intellectual capital in Asia. No doubt, selling or giving away our ability to design and manufacture valuable goods and services to Asia makes many neo-libs feel good. After all in the new age of the infallible rightness of the free market, just like we are one happy bi-partisan family, we are all for sale.

Asia is poor because their political systems are absolutely corrupt from the core out to the edges. The same with Africa. Companies take advantage of this fact. As long as they pay the government, the government promises not to "interfere" in labor relations.

I'm not going to argue this point any further as your reply fails to even remotely acknowledge the scope of what has happened in a few short years to our economy - the lowering standard of living for 95% of the nation and the exploding standard of living for the other 5%. Not to mention the debt held by Asia, the closed protectionist economies of Asia and it goes on and on.

And for the record - yes, we actually did invent much of the technology now being used against us in Asia. And global agriculture companies have completely wiped out individual farming here in US putting 100,000 or more out of work. Guess who owns a huge portion of these companies?

On the other hand, perhaps you are one of the fortunate 5% who is making a good wage in and industry that has not yet been devastated by outsourcing. And I also suppose there are many who are only to happy to give up their job to an underpaid worker in Asia with near zero civil protections; clearly a brave sacrifice by many here in USA. I freely admit to having no patience with this sort of thinking.

So - as democrats are exclaiming the value of education and we pay higher taxes to buy computers for kindergarten - AT&T is training a 26 yr old in Bangalore, with limited education, how to use a computer for the first time.

The US has done virtually the same thing the Lenape Indians did when they sold Manahattan to the Dutch for $24. We will pay for this in incalculable ways.

Thanks for your reply.

[JonQ]

53. "yes, we actually did invent much of the technology now being used against us in Asia"

Against us? Do you see this as a war? A zero-sum gain, all their gains must be our losses?

You can't fault them for taking advantage of our desire for cheap consumer goods and our willingness to train foreign students. The alternative, protectionism and refusing to allow foreigners in to study will have far worse repercussions.

If we wanted to do something about it no government action would be needed: we'd simply stop buying their products and start forcing our kids to work and study harder.

Frankly they've earned their growth through blood, sweat and tears.

[treestar]

54. I don't know why some here are so focused on where a job is

As long as unemployment is not too high in each country, it's not the problem. And we can't have our own economy with no import/export. There is a global slow down too. To me it's a waste of energy to worry about this. Work on the US economy improving without being so hung up on which job is where. And of course they don't complain about those jobs we "stole" from Germans or Swedes or whoever. It just smacks of selfish American exceptionalism.

[amandabeech]

81. We've been running trade deficits with those countries for years.

We've hardly stolen anything from them.

I'm beginning to think that American exceptionalism really means that we alone among countries don't take care of ourselves first.

[scentopine]

58. I disagree, we see what has happened to our economy

we've tried it your way. Free market uber alles. It doesn't work. Have you noticed anything odd about the world economy over last several years?

Nations compete. They compete against each other. All the training and factories we built in China helps them build goods and services that they sell internally to China and rest of Asia, we are often locked out of bidding. Telecommunications (my specialty), automotive, energy, on and on. I know what I'm talking about.

China (for example - we could also discuss India) is and will continue to be a nuclear and communist nation with a repressive and corrupt government and human rights record that makes gitmo look like Hilton hotel. China would only be too happy to assert world dominance and see their model of Government spread, just like we spread democracy via carpet bombing. To achieve this goal, they are more than happy to use the technology we sell them to their advantage.

What a romantic vision, if kids work harder in school US employers will hire them. 100% pure neo-con/neo-lib bullshit and lies. That 26 year old in Bangalore who is taking your job has limited education and near zero skills. He works for low wages and without benefits. If he gets sick, no problem. Just fire him. Another one is waiting to take his place.

Is this what you want to teach our kids? Because that is EXACTLY why the labor market is moving to these places. I'm been immersed in engineering and tech product development for 30 years, and have been on BOD advisory groups and I PROMISE you - we aren't dumber, we aren't lazy. We just have legal protections and we want a decent wage and this infuriates executives. They see Asia and they see money in their pockets knowing full well they don't give a rat's ass whether an Asian worker lives or dies.

There is nothing more to it than that. Pure greed from Wall Street and our Government without concern about working conditions and the neo-cons and neo-libs bitch an moan about our lack of "skills" are keeping us down. I've watched it first hand for 30 years. This just isn't true. And you seem to think I am attacking the bastards in Asia for buying our technology. This is not correct. I am blaming the traitorous bastards on Wall Street and the Government for literally giving away our intellectual property for pennies on the dollar.

And I couldn't disagree more about earning their growth. We simply keep lowering the bar on human rights and political reform. It's like saying a child who inherited his daddy's oil business (or the presidency) earned it through blood sweat and tears. Do I feel bad for impoverished in Asia? Of course. But I also believe our nation comes first and the Asia can solve their own problems via political reform. It won't hapeen however as long as we keep spoon feeding them.

So we disagree - however I am going to play my experience and first hand witness to the devastation to the engineering and technology industries here in USA over any Pollyanna views and theories about "free trade" and pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps. Last week another 300-400 colleges lost their jobs to India - many were brilliant, some professors at schools training students from India who will go back to India. That Fortune 500 company is going to invest millions train people in Asia -why? Because the employees have near zero legal protections and benefits and very low standard of living. Its been like this for 25 years.

The truth isn't what you proclaim. This is a war - its a war with Wall Street and Asia's version of Wall Street fighting for the savings of the American middle class and squeezing every last dollar from their pockets into their own.

People should worry as much about protecting our own state of affairs and our own intellectual value. But now that Asia holds trillions in T-bills, they are asserting their strength. And I assure you, this strength will be used against us in our struggle to keep decent working conditions, the right to unions, and civil/human rights here and abroad.

I have all the proof I need in our balance of trade, GDP, declining wages and benefits, high unemployment, on and on. Every time some dumb fuck in Congress or Wall Street spouts off about how great it is that we are outsourcing to Asia (and insource from Asia) I literally want to puke. We will pay for generations.

On edit:

One more thought- remember how unions were killing GM? So they had to move to Mexico and Asia or go out of business? You know - Mexicans and Asians are so much better educated than Americans. Free trade to the rescue! We can save the automotive industry by smart Asians and Mexicans - it's our fault for not working harder in school!! Guess what they still made shitty cars. It didn't fix anything except the executive bank accounts and gave them more time to rape us on Wall Street. (Now Mexico is complaining about losing business to Asia who will work for even less money than Mexicans).

No Wall Street exec gives a flying fuck about whether US industry and middle class wealth exists or not. Even as the bastards drive their companies and investment banks 10,000 feet underground they are becoming richer by the second. No matter what happens, these auto CEO mother fuckers and 10 generations of their families are set.

Hell let's go all the way and by our fighter jets and nuclear submarines from China and India! My colleagues in the defense industry often poke fun at the fact that they have "built in job security". I promise them I will have the last laugh before I move on to the here after.

[Vehl]

57. OK..time to pay India for the 0 and the numeral system and China for its Inventions?

Do you realize how absurd your post sounds?


By your logic, the west will have to pay 2000 years worth of royalties to china and India for the discoveries of theirs...discoveries that were part of the foundation for many of the western sciences.

Wanna do math using roman numerals? :)


..And as some other poster commented in this thread many of the western nations got their riches due to their "empires" encompassing the formally rich nations of Asia.


Its better to get some proper geography/history knowledge before spouting off like this


Cheers
:)

[samsingh]

71. weren't fireworks and spices invented in China or India?

[Vehl]

74. Yes..

A lot of what makes up the core mathematics & sciences were invented in those two countries....knowledge which the arabs passed onto the Europe dwelling in the dark ages...ushering in the renaissance.


Btw gunpowder was invented in china but the first effective use of rockets were by an Indian king against the British...the British developed their Congreve rocket closely based on this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congreve_rocket


fun fact : The British used these rockets to bombard Ft McHenry during the war of 1812. The verse "And the rockets’ red glare, the bombs bursting in air" from the star spangled banner refers to this.

[samsingh]

70. you really need to brush up on your history

very untrue statement.

India and Indians (and Chinese) have contributed significant brainpower to technology the world over.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

36. the UN is not owned by the US

[treestar]

38. Why is every gain of any other country a loss to this one?

[Posteritatis]

45. The right's turned that into the default view

People see the world as America and A Collection Of Evil Forces Dedicated To Its Destruction.

[amandabeech]

83. This one is not a right-wing meme.

The personal circumstances of far too many here have done that, not the Republicans.

[samsingh]

69. why do you think we are giving to Asia?

the decision to move jobs to Asia started decades ago and was done in the name of Capitalism.

the West has taken a great deal from Asia. It has not been one way only.

[amandabeech]

82. Actually, the severe hemhorage began after we granted MFN to China

and allowed it into the WTO. That was in '98 or '99.

Before that, you could actually buy American-made consumer goods in the stores.

Where have you been?

[pampango]

13. It sure does. With over a billion people, a growing economy and a democracy, it make a lot of sense.

[rayofreason]

14. Of course it makes sense.

India is home to one of the world's great civilizations, its is a democracy of 1 billion people, and it has a rapidly growing economy. If the UN is going to mean something it should be grounded in reality.

So France deserves a seat on the SC and India does not?

[JonQ]

18. Bingo

france is on there mostly for historical reasons rather than current reality.

If I had to pick one as a trading partner and military ally in the 21st century it sure as heck wouldn't be france.

[w4rma]

24. France has been our ally longer than any other nation on the planet has.

And they, unlike our other "allies" tried to stop us from destroying ourselves in Iraq. France is one of our best and closest allies in the world, still.

P.S. NAZI Germany hated France. Why do you want to follow NAZI Germany?

[JonQ]

28. You godwinned yourself pretty fast

Nazi germany hated the USSR, I guess during the cold war we were all nazis!

And historical value and current value are not the same wouldn't you agree? France is not the world power they once were they have been and are currently being surpassed in economic and military power by a great many states.

Right now europe is overrepresented, and asia underrepresented, in terms of their real world power.

If we were to stop the clock in 1775 as you seem to wish then wouldn't we be enemies with the UK and completely ignore china and japan?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

40. beyond godwinning. godwin is usual just a comparison

this is more like a bush argument. if you are against us, you are a terrorist

[La Lioness Priyanka]

27. but you know britain and france made their money so honestly

by not stealing from india, china, vietnam, large parts of africa etc

france is white. india is not.

[Jack_DeLeon]

15. I agree.

[samsingh]

68. thank you.

[Captain Hilts]

6. It's THAT obvious they should be there. nt

[OhioChick]

8. Dubya should STFU

He's done enough damage.

[No Elephants]

11. Bush who?

[BumRushDaShow]

12. India & China

need to create a "free market" within their own countries and generate consumers and consumer demand there. Continuing to showcase the elite while hundreds and hundreds of millions live in squalor (a hundred million more in fact, than the entire population of the U.S.) is going to backfire when they run out of those outside of their countries who even have money to buy their products and services. It's already happening in China. They could have a huge market just servicing themselves without need for always relying on the "American consumer" to keep them in business (in turn putting us out of business and having us continue the race to the bottom).

[scentopine]

19. Agree- with Wall Street selling our jobs to Asia

we are losing the spending power to buy those goods. Working for the war and police industry seems to be the only growing industry we have left in America.

Watch - Asia holds trillions in T-bills. Because of this, they are demanding and even greater slice of US employment base in return or they threaten to start unloading the t-bills.

I am sick and tired of free-market neo-dems digging up Reaganomic turds and slapping a new coat of varnish on them, hoping we won't notice that they still smell like shit.

When will we learn that anytime Bush and republicans embrace an idea it is a disaster for US workers. And anytime Bush and Obama agree it is going to be even a bigger fucking catastrophe of appeasement and sacrifice by the middle class under the name of "reform".

How is it that we so happily let our leadership fuck us over again and again? When Bush and Obama agree, it should provoke for extra scrutiny of the details by democrats. Obama has been far to accommodating to the republicans and short of turning his windy principals into hard core policy.

[mule_train]

21. 'are demanding and even greater slice of US employment base in return or they threaten to start unlo

unloading the T-bills

very scary thought, and undoubtably true

deficit spending taxes tha citizen in countless, adn many hidden ways

[liberalpragmatist]

23. Actually, India does have a large domestic market

Foreign direct investment in India is far lower than China. And, despite the software industry, overall, India does not really export heavily. The country has been relatively shielded from the current recession because the vast bulk of its economic growth is internal.

[petronius]

16. Interesting. I hadn't known that there were proposals to expand the SC, but it looks

like it's been around for a while.

Even though India (and Japan, and others) has a pretty good claim, it seems like a recipe for chaos...

[hatrack]

25. Who gives a fuck?

Oh, yeah, I almost forgot - for THOSE delicious, succulent mangoes, NO price is too high.

[shadowknows69]

26. Who?

The puppet King is having thoughts lately? Get that man another drink.

[Doc Martin]

29. Who?

[Joanne98]

30. NO! India's RW is abusing human rights!

[Posteritatis]

47. Something the other P-5 nations are innocent of?

I wasn't aware the US, Britain, France, China and Russia had such a clean track record in that regard.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

49. lol

irony from the keepers of gitmo

[DavidDvorkin]

33. The real problem is the existence of the Security Council

No matter which great powers hold the permanent seats, it's an instrument that institutionalizes control by the great powers.

The General Assembly isn't much better, unfortunately.

The UN is a parliament in which the upper house is controlled by the aristocracy among nations and the lower house is controlled by the landed gentry among nations. Changing who holds some of those seats doesn't address this.

[cosmicone]

34. Good for Bush.

Of the entire 8 years of fuckups, Bush did two things right.

1. He gave the highest amount of funding for AIDS of any president and created PEPFAR. No other leader has shown this much commitment to helping AIDS victims as GWB.

2. He rapidly improved relations with India and signed the Indo-US Nuclear Cooperation Treaty which allows India to be a de facto nuclear weapons state without having to sign the NPT regime. Using India as a counterbalance against China is a wise strategy for the US. Kudos to GWB for doing this.

Lastly, in 1955, a UNSC Permanent Member status was offered to India but the stupid PM Jawaharlal Nehru turned it down because China was not included. Later, China replaced Taiwan and India was left in the cold.

When smaller countries like UK and France are included, how can one keep a country of 1.1 billion people out of the power? India MUST be a permanent member of the UNSC or the UN has no meaning.

[struggle4progress]

37. W's nuclear pact with India was part of a concerted effort to undermine the NPT. And W

in the eight years of his Presidency never supported India's bid for a security council seat: his administration played coy "maybe" games around the issue

Last Updated: Wednesday, 22 September, 2004, 12:51 GMT 13:51 UK
Analysis: India's Security Council seat bid
By Ethirajan Anbarasan
BBC Tamil service
... For more than a decade, India has been calling for expansion of the council by including developing countries to ensure it is more representative ... Of the five permanent members (P-5) with powers to veto any resolution, three - Britain, France and Russia - have openly supported India's case, thanks to India's intense lobbying. In addition, some African and West Asian nations have endorsed India's claim ... The other two members of the P-5 group, the United States and China have not stated their formal positions ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3679968.stm

US refuses to allow Veto power to India – India should refuse to participate in United Nations Security Council as a second-class member
Preetam Sohani
May 15, 2005
... ‘‘The one clear statement to come from Washington is the warning about veto power’’ sought by India, Brazil, Germany and Japan, said New York Times quoting senior diplomats and administration officials. ‘‘The administration officials said they were opposed to giving new members veto power out of concern that it might paralyse the Security Council,’’ the daily said. The United States’ view of the ‘group of four’s effort remains uncertain, leading some diplomats to worry that Washington may actually oppose expanding the Security Council because it would dilute American power, the daily said ... http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/2710.asp

Bush, Schroeder discuss Security Council reform, Iran
US News
By Mike McCarthy Jun 27, 2005, 23:35 GMT
Washington - German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder came away from his meeting with U.S. President George W. Bush Monday satisfied that the United States does not oppose Germany's bid for a permanent seat the U.N. Security Council ... The United States has publicly supported only Japan and wants a second country to also receive permanent membership, but has not named the country. Germany wants six new permanent members added to the 15-nation council was well as four new rotating members. "We oppose no country's bid for the Security Council," Bush said ... http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/usa/news/article_1023918.php/Bush_Schroeder_discuss_Security_Council_reform_Iran

China, US to jointly oppose UN expansion
(Reuters)
Updated: 2005-08-05 06:49
UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - China and the United States have agreed to work together to defeat plans to expand the prestigious U.N. Security Council at this time, China's U.N. ambassador said on Thursday ... The agreement came in a brief meeting with John Bolton, the George W. Bush administration's new ambassador to the United Nations, Ambassador Wang Guangya told reporters. Bolton, who was sworn in on Monday, was not immediately available for comment ... http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-08/05/content_466532.htm

Bolton Rejects UN Council Plan
Says Expansion Efforts Will Fail
By Beth Gardiner
Associated Press
October 15, 2005
John R. Bolton, America's ambassador to the United Nations, predicted yesterday that efforts to greatly expand the Security Council would fail. Bolton's remarks were a rare case of a US official publicly speculating on the outcome of a bitter debate to overhaul the Security Council. In the past, he and other officials have repeated strong US opposition to rival proposals for adding at least 10 seats to the 15-nation body ... Making the Security Council too large would undermine that goal, he said. Increasing the number of seats to 25 or 26 ''gives us great pause," he said, adding that the maximum that Washington could support would be 20 seats ... Giving his first talk in Europe since taking his post in August, Bolton noted previous efforts to restructure the powerful Security Council had foundered. ''Our prediction would be that this latest effort at changing the composition of the council is not going to succeed," he said at the Chatham House foreign affairs think tank. He reiterated Washington's support for Japan's bid to become a permanent member of the council, but did not say what other countries America might back ... http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/200/41229.html

[amandabeech]

84. Do you actually think that having another nuclear power escape the NPT is a good thing?

Pray tell, what is your reasoning on that?

[Vehl]

88. Escape NPT? what do you mean by that?

surely you do not mean that India should sign the NPT before it has the chance to be a perm mem? :)

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

35. Bush, I favour your indictment for War Crimes

:beer:

[NEOBuckeye]

41. Poppy Bush to Family: It's time to repair the Bush Family Name Brand

Don't blame Dubya. He's just following daddy's instructions to salvage their family legacy... of political meddling and incompetence in support of duplicity and plunder.

Gotta pave the way for George P. and Jenna, you know?

[santamargarita]

42. This drunk shitbag should keep his goddamn mouth shut

:puke:

[Posteritatis]

44. I think UNSC permanent seats (with the associated vetoes) should be done away with entirely

But if they won't be I'm perfectly happy with them being shuffled into something other than the Official Second World War Victor Club.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

50. i agree with your stance

[Vehl]

56. yes!

:thumbsup:

The big 5 veto powers make the UN an Oligarchy!
The best option would be to do what you suggested. Get rid of the Veto power

[UTUSN]

59. Who?!1 Huh?!1 Whaaa?!1 Why?!1 (TAKE JEB WITH YOU AND DON'T COME BACK!1) n/t

[Lagomorph]

60. Politics aside, 1/6 of the population should have an ear at the table...

and a voice when they have something to say.

It's going to be interesting living in the Post Economic Superpower world.

[BOG PERSON]

61. I doubt it

The world hasn't been very interesting at all since the USSR committed suicide. It will probably never be interesting again.

[Lagomorph]

63. After spending 18 years...

...in the fifties and sixties, getting the hell scared out of me by the warnings, threats, wars and confrontations, I can't say I'll miss it.

[fujiyama]

62. For once he has a point. Well sort of.

Don't bother even expanding it. The Security Council is a joke. Just abolish it. It serves no purpose and the big five can veto whatever offends them.

Several continents don't even have ANY representation. South America and Africa aren't included. Japan and Germany also have no say and they're two major economic powers. India has over 1.2 billion people and is the world's largest Democracy. But they have to sit around and abide by resolutions passed by China - its bullying neighbor?

Fuck that.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

65. well stated

[Romulox]

66. If India were a major player in regional security and stability, their case would be stronger...

What has India done to help with the situation in North Korea, for example?

[fujiyama]

72. .

.

[Romulox]

75. India's last major foreign policy position of note was to threaten nuclear exchange with Pakistan

:shrug:

[demwing]

73. Fuck Bush, but ask yourself this - If there were no economic competition between India and the US

What reasons would you have to argue against including the world's largest democracy from membership in the UNSC? It makes absolutely zero sense.

There will come a time, sooner or later, where we will either be grateful that India and America are allies, or wish they were. The time to build bridges is now.

[amandabeech]

85. In what scenario do you see India helping the U.S. as an ally?

Against the Chinese?

Against radical Islam?

If they side with us they'll lose the respect of the non-aligned. Would they do that?

[JCMach1]

86. India doesn't really see itself as 'non-aligned' anymore

[amandabeech]

87. Okay, since you responded, under what circumstances would you see India

aligning itself with the U.S. in a military or cold-warish scenario?

[JCMach1]

90. For them it is about regional politics- the U.S. is often the pivot-stone

between themselves and Pakistan.

Also,there has been growing tension between India and China...

Then, throw-in the problem of possible Indian instability... 13.4% Muslims... Maoist insurrection in India... numerous other smaller resistance movements.

And good grief think about the nuclear neighborhood: India, Pakistan, Israel, China, and possibly soon... Iran

and perhaps the best reason... India has more than 5% of the world's GDP. It already surpasses Great Britain, France, etc. and will soon be larger than Japan.

[Vehl]

93. +1!

A very good visual representation of the data.

A picture is indeed worth a thousand words

[Vehl]

89. What? India siding with Radial Islam and/or China? =))

Do you think India will side with Radical Islam or China when the push comes to shove? :o
If you do really think that i would say you are woefully misinformed about the ground reality and south asian history.
:)

[amandabeech]

91. Ummm, I was asking a question because I don't know the area well.

Of course I'm woefully misinformed. That's why I asked for elucidation.

Do you not understand the meaning of a question mark?

[Vehl]

92. My apologies...I thought it was a rethorical Question

well...as for the Radical Islam, China issue..


India has about 12-14% Muslims...but they are pretty much integrated into the society(a couple of Indian presidents have been Muslim) and do not subscribe to the radical islam of its neighbors (Eg, Pakistan, Afghanistan )

However, India and Pakistan have been at war 3 times in the past and the "mujaheddin" fighting India in parts of Kashmir hail from all the corners of the Islamic world.Even as far away as Chechnya and Indonesia.

That is why India and Israel have very close military ties.Israel surpassed Russia as India Main weapons supplier a few years back.
Thus India sees Radical Islam as a threat to its existence. Indian history is replete with Islamic invasions starting from the 12th century till the 16th..hence there is a inherent animosity towards those countries.


As for China...India used to think of China as an ally till the Chinese invasion in the 60s.China's soft underbelly is its fuel supply from the middle east...and India sits right in the middle. Its very easy for India to disable china militarily in the event of a war if it cuts the fuel... China knows this and is trying to build bases in south-east Asian countries..while India expands its blue ocean fleet. India is probably the single biggest threat china faces.

[amandabeech]

94. Thank you very much, and apology heartily accepted.

The relationship between India and Israel is fascinating. Do you think that India would support an attack against Iran if Israel were to do so.

I hadn't thought of India's ability to disrupt China's oil supply. If China were to get rowdy, India's Navy could be important in cutting off the liquid elixir.

[liberalpragmatist]

95. No - b/c India also has very close relations with Iran

For a number of reasons - historical, cultural, etc. - India and Iran have generally good relations. There are also pipeline politics involved. And India opposes a strike on Iran's nuclear facilities.

India's relations with Israel are very much separated from their relations with Israel.

India's chief foreign policy aims are: (1) to marginalize Pakistan, and (2) prevent encirclement by China. They aim to develop close relations with Southeast Asia and the Middle East to prevent their neighbors from becoming too close to China.

[amandabeech]

98. Thanks for your informative post. n/t

[Vehl]

97. Nope..India will not support an Israeli attack on Iran.

India has good relations with Iran as well as Israel. In fact Iran has some issues with pakistan..hence India has an agreement with Iran which might allow India to use Iranian ports in an event of war with pakistan(if i rem correctly). I doubt India will be willing to give away this perk as well as the "appearance" of being a neutral power in the middle east.


As for China..in the event of an war it will be almost impossible for china to keep the supply lanes open..especially when the lanes are not only so far away from Chinese bases and are through Indian naval waters; but almost hug the Indian coastline. The general strategic plan of the Indian navy is the blockade the Indian ocean shipping lanes connecting china with the ME using its ships and to emulate the German wolf-packs of ww2 with its subs(preferably nuke subs) in the choke points of South East Asia.

[amandabeech]

99. Thanks for your informative post. n/t

[Vehl]

100. yw :)

[mstinamotorcity]

76. is this the

same India that Dubya traded nuclear weapon technology for mangoes. If this is true why wouldn't he want them to have a seat on the security council, seems as though he made it so that they need watching. Hey Dubya were you an asshole that day or the whole ass.

[KamaAina]

77. "I think those Hoosiers will do an excellent job of protecting our security."

:dunce:

[thepeopleunited]

79. I've always suspected Mumbai was a Bushler special.

A little too slick, a little too coordinated, a little too successful, way too convenient. And what do you know, all the terrists were killed, except for the one who fingered the Pakis.

This confirms it.