Venezuela reports overflight of Dutch military aircraft

[ChangoLoa]

Source: El Universal

The government of Venezuela protested on Tuesday to the Netherlands about three air raids of a plane property of the Dutch air force, detected last July 4 and 7, and labeled as "provocation."

The Venezuelan Ministry of Foreign Affairs issued a statement reporting on a Dutch military aircraft engaged in three unauthorized flights over the so-called flight information area, on the Caribbean coast near Caracas, where the country's major airport is located, DPA quoted.

"The three air raids of this military aircraft occurred on July 4 and 7, 2010, and were tracked by Venezuela's air surveillance and defense systems, even though the aircraft implemented techniques to hide its position and identification," the communiqué stated.

The Venezuelan government refused such "provocations, which are absolutely opposed to the good-neighbor stance that should prevail between two bordering nations, and undermine confidence between our two countries."

Read more: http://english.eluniversal.com/2010/07/13/en_pol_esp_venezuela-reports-ov_13A4177691.shtml

[sui generis]

1. look, over there, a shiny thing.

yawn.

Caracas is fucked up and it's not the Dutch that are keeping it that way.

[dipsydoodle]

2. Did it have

a cap on it ? :shrug:

[Renew Deal]

3. "Air raids"???

:rofl:

They're getting their propoganda training from North Korea.

[David__77]

4. Raid = violation of sovereign air space.

The Netherlands maintains a colony nearby, and it could have been an honest mistake.

[Posteritatis]

10. "Air raid" = air-to-ground attack.

Claiming a plane violating airspace is an "air raid" is obsfuscatory hyperbole of the silliest sort.

[David__77]

11. The hyperbole is on the part of the right-wing anti-Chavez "Universal"

HERE is the full communique of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs:

http://www.mre.gov.ve/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4156:-venezuela-protesta-ante-los-paises-bajos-por-incursion-de-aeronaves-en-territorio-nacional&catid=3:comunicados&Itemid=108

It reads:

El Gobierno de la República Bolivariana de Venezuela elevó su más enérgica protesta ante el Gobierno del Reino de los Países Bajos, tras haberse producido tres incursiones ilícitas de una aeronave de la Fuerza Aérea holandesa en la Región de Información de Vuelo (FIR) Maiquetía.

Las tres incursiones ilegales de esta aeronave militar, ocurrieron entre los días 4 y 7 de julio de 2010, y fueron detectadas por los sistemas de vigilancia y defensa aérea de Venezuela, a pesar de que la aeronave implementó técnicas para ocultar su posición e identificación.

El Gobierno venezolano condena estas provocaciones, que son absolutamente contrarias al espíritu de buena vecindad que debe reinar entre dos naciones fronterizas, y deterioran la confianza entre nuestros dos países.

El Gobierno Bolivariano de Venezuela exige al Gobierno del Reino de los Países Bajos que tome las disposiciones necesarias para que cesen estos actos de provocación, como condición indeclinable para que las relaciones bilaterales no se vean afectadas.

Caracas, 13 de julio de 2010

...

The term "incursiones ilegales," which CLEARLY means "illegal intrusions," was translated by the Universal staff as "air raids." This was likely done with an eye to willfully distort the ministry's statement.

And so your claim of hyperbole and silliness can be attached to the right-wing anti-Chavez Universal newspaper, but not the government under Chavez's leadership.

[ChangoLoa]

25. It's quite clear that El Universal wasn't informing about the Dutch having BOMBED Venezuela

Nor the govt saying the Netherlands had actually bombed the country.

In my opinion, it's a mistake, not a hyperbole.

On edit: didn't you just make the same mistake in your post #4 btw?? I quote it: "Raid = violation of sovereign air space"

[Bacchus39]

30. yeah, the English version of El Universal doesn't always translate too well

I suspect a google type translation tool is used. the Spanish versions are the way to go.

[spanza]

51. Right. Like in this particular case.

I hope nobody thought that El Universal was talking about an Air-to-ground attack!!


:eyes:

[Bacchus39]

54. the original Spanish article is clear, those who have a problem with the English version

might be better off getting their news from sources who do not use translation software even if it means waiting a few more days to get the story.

Personally, I think its a great feature, but I do admit that some of their translations don't quite fit. it can be kind of entertaining sometimes actually.

[David__77]

68. OK, fine, IF there is hyperbole, it is on the part of the right-wing Universal.

I have no idea if they have editorial control of their English-language page. It doesn't seem as crude as an auto-translator, so I would think so; but, less of give benefit of the doubt. In future, I suppose, we must all be responsible for identifying primary sources cited in news stories when there are translations involved so that the implications of the statements may be truly understood.

I don't especially have a problem calling it an "air raid," to be honest. If intentional, such acts are air piracy, and even if not, are a violation of a nation's sovereignty and a legal matter of grave importance. But I do think that more restrained language such as was actually used by Venezuela is appropriate for a case such as this.

[ChangoLoa]

82. I was fine with "air raid" until the poster pointed out the exact meaning

I think it's a human mistake... in Spanish, "raid" can mean incursion or attack.

My use of El Universal doesn't come from a particular preference but from the fact that it's the only Venezuelan journal which has some online articles translated into English. If more people here were Spanish speakers, I would post Ultimas Noticias a lot more. Still, I believe El Universal is not as right wing as (almost?) all major US newspapers.

[petronius]

9. I suspect there are some translation quirks going on here

It probably sounded different in the original...

[spanza]

48. The original text from the government's foreign affairs ministry:

http://www.mre.gov.ve/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4156:-venezuela-protesta-ante-los-paises-bajos-por-incursion-de-aeronaves-en-territorio-nacional&catid=3:comunicados&Itemid=108

[heliarc]

87. Not likely...

"Air Raids" was more likely an intentional mistranslation of "incursiones illegales"... literally "illegal intrusion."

The US is getting propaganda training from North Korea then...

[COLGATE4]

5. Fearless leader is now reduced

to drumming up patriotic outrage at the damned Dutch!

[EFerrari]

16. Hugo Chavez does not write for El Universal. n/t

[SunnySong]

6. The octopus predicts the Dutch winning this one. nt

[davidinalameda]

75. *snort*

hehe

[PacerLJ35]

80. Probably has something to do with VZ confusing the difference

between sovereign airspace and VZ's Flight Information Region (FIR) and Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ). The first is THEIR airspace and Dutch/US aircraft shouldn't fly into it without appropriate Dip clearances. The second and third are VZ controlled airspace, but still international airspace.

[slackmaster]

7. Persecution complex

There is therapy available, but only for people who are willing to admit they have a problem.

[jberryhill]

8. Dutch Global Domination

They are probably surveying the seabeds for new areas in which to expand their perfidious tulip cultivation by means of draining the world's oceans of water.

[Coventina]

39. I, for one, welcome our new Dutch overlords! Pass the pot and gouda!

:smoke:

:9

[David__77]

12. The right-wing Universal mistranslated the communique of the ministry.

It's like they did so on purpose to mock the statement of the ministry.

The term "incursiones ilegales" which means "illegal intrusions," was mistranslated by the Universal staff as "air raids."

See original communique and decide for yourself:

http://www.mre.gov.ve/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4156:-venezuela-protesta-ante-los-paises-bajos-por-incursion-de-aeronaves-en-territorio-nacional&catid=3:comunicados&Itemid=108

[unkachuck]

13. did the Dutch aircraft....

....have U.S. pilots?

[ronnie624]

15. With a military presence in Bonaire and Curaçao,

and the stated intention of increasing surveillance and other military activities in our "backyard", as detailed in the 2009 Pentagon budget request submitted to Congress, my guess is that U.S. military personnel were indeed involved. When the U.S. military tells Congress it needs shit-loads of money to engage in "broad spectrum" military activities in South America, I believe them.

[PacerLJ35]

19. Why would they?

They Dutch have their own Air Force, and we have our own aircraft located there.

[Common Sense Party]

14. Man, they must really be sore about losing the World Cup final.

Psst! Dutch boys! That was SPAIN that beat you. NOT Venezuela.

[davepc]

17. Before you know it the Netherlands will have a bulk of it's military force in Curacao!

That might be 500...600 troops! All ready for invasion!

[SpartanDem]

18. I can only hope that Chavez

stands up to Evil Dutch Imperialism with their fascist tulips and windmills. The People will not subjugated
:sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

21. Just out of curiosity, what would you want Obama to do

if our airspace was violated by another country?

lol

[boppers]

23. US airspace is constantly "violated" by neighboring countries.

Obama doesn't use it to release press releases that complain about the nefarious intentions of Mexico, Canada, etc.

[ronnie624]

32. Except, of course, for the fact that the U.S government

has stated unequivocally that it intends to violate the airspace of countries in South America with military incursions. The Venezuelan government has legitimate concerns.

The Mexican and Canadian militaries on the other hand, have not submitted budget requests stating that they need to engage in "full spectrum operations" and increase their "expeditionary warfare capability" in the United States. We probably don't have much to worry about, considering we have not been traditional victims of Mexican and Canadian imperialism.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

35. When did Obama make this a US military mission?

I am shocked and surprised to hear of this.

[ronnie624]

38. You may not like the source, but oh well.

The issue has been discussed here repeatedly.

<http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/5299>

[Nuclear Unicorn]

40. Source notwithstanding Obama is not hegemonist

he's not an imperialist, he's not a warmonger, he's not trying to overtake all of Central and South America.

That's just nonsense.

Scary pull quotes FTW

[ronnie624]

43. U.S. imperialist attitudes and policies regarding Latin America

have been entrenched by official doctrine for a very long time. Obama could do no more than dream of changing them.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

50. Actually, yes he can.

He can say, "no."

If the US wants to build a facility in another country they have to come to him, explain the mission and ask him to sign off on it. The president then has to submit the budget request to congress. The military cannot get its own funding without the president's approval.

Look how quickly the president put an end to the space shuttle program.

[Judi Lynn]

20. Military Base in Curaçao: The Third Frontier of the United States »

Military Base in Curaçao: The Third Frontier of the United States »

Just days earlier, Venezuela’s Vice-President Ramón Carrizalez had publicly denounced the intromission of a US military plane also originating from the air base in Curaçao during 2009. The governments of Washington and Holland denied the violation, yet Carrizalez revealed an audio recording between the Venezuelan airport control tower and the US pilot while inside Venezuelan airspace.

The pilot stated clearly that he was flying a US Navy military plane stationed at the base in Curaçao. He claimed ignorance as to the violation of Venezuelan territory, stating he was “unaware” he had entered an authorized zone. But the US military plane hadn’t just merely crossed a border that some might argue is difficult to visualize, rather the pilot had flown over a strategic Venezuelan military base on La Orchila, a small island off Venezuela’s northern coast, clearly well inside Venezuelan territory. This was not an isolated incident.

http://www.propeller.com/story/2010/01/11/military-base-in-curaccedilao-the-third-frontier-of-the-united-states/proppers/

[PacerLJ35]

73. The issue with that specific case was that the pilot wasn't actually inside VZ's territorial airspac

It was operating within VZ's ADIZ, which is international airspace used by VZ as an air defense buffer...in other words, it's airspace that VZ monitors but has no authority over. The territorial airspace only extends to 3 nautical miles off the coast of VZ, whereas their ADIZ extends out much farther than that. Also, VZ operates a FIR (Flight Identification Zone), but again, the FIR is considered international airspace and VZ only operates air traffic control off their coast.

Iran would pull the same thing when we'd cross their FIR going to Afghanistan...we even decided to call up Tehran Control and checked in with them, stating we had crossed into the Tehran FIR. Sometimes the controllers would respond and acknowledge our radio call, other times they'd ignore us....but either way, we were in international airspace.

[bitchkitty]

22. Well whaddya know, another Chavez thread.

The way the same posters keep popping up repeating the same right wing talking points, over and over and over again - do they ever get tired?

I wish the media could at least make up entertaining lies, you know? The shit you post over and over gets really boring, sweetie.

Hugo Chavez has a huge socialist agenda and he's coming for you!!! He's going to rape your kittens!!! RUN!!!! LOL

[ChangoLoa]

24. Not a partisan talking point :)

There's no heresy here, sweetie, you're obsessed with that. What lie are you talking about? The fact that they wrote "air raid" instead of "illegal incursion"?

I didn't even know that "air raid" meant "air-to-ground attack".

But please tell me something, are YOU actually implying El Universal was trying to make us believe that the Netherlands BOMBED Venezuela?
Is that the "lie" you're referring to??
:dunce:

[boppers]

26. Hey, look, a definition tool!

http://www.google.com/search?q=define:raid

[Nuclear Unicorn]

27. Even if we admit the word "raid" does not occur in the original

I'm looking at "actos de provocación" and scratching my head.

Why would the Dutch commit an act of provocation? What's in it for them? Why not A) ask the Dutch privately what happened or B) simply state the aircraft had strayed into Venezuelan airspace?

To call it an act of provocation implies there was malicious intent.

[Bacchus39]

31. the Dutch have denied entering Venezuela's air space

http://english.eluniversal.com/2010/07/14/en_pol_esp_netherlands-denies-v_14A4182491.shtml

[ronnie624]

33. Not unusual.

Governments make such denials all the time when they have secrets they want to keep.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

34. That brings us no closer to answering: why?

If the Dutch did act provocatively and subsequently deny their provocation they would have some reason--at least in their minds--to do so.

What is that reason?

[Bacchus39]

36. there is still the possibility that Ven just made it up as well n/t

s

[Nuclear Unicorn]

37. Yes, there is that possibility and that possibility becomes stronger

absent a plausible motivation for the Dutch.

Even if the Dutch wanted to be rat bastards there would certainly be easier and subsequently more profitable pickings then the--urm--hyper-vigiliant Venezuelan government.

[ronnie624]

41. Is Dutch cooperation with the stated U.S. military mission in South America

really so difficult for you to imagine?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

42. Actually...yes...and very much so

Though the US and Dutch may be allies they are not co-conspirators in some nefarious plot to establish hegemony in South America at Venzeulela's expense. The Dutch have no reason to play poodle to the US and do spy work on our behalf unless something is in it for them and that requires us to ask: what do they want? And What would Obama promise them?

You do remember that Obama is the Commander in Chief of the US, don't you? These back-handed implications that he is imposing the US on Venezuela or anyone else are absurd on their face.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[harun]

28. Agree, DU'rs should know better.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

29. I thought Chavez's appeal WAS his socialist agenda?

:shrug:

[spanza]

46. It is! He has many dimensions...

But there are people who love too much their unidimensional mythical hero from the tropics to understand this topic is about something he/his own govt said... not about some dark accusation made by the newspaper. The supporters should at least try to explain why he might have a point.

[Octafish]

44. Hey, Hugo! Somebody wants your oil!

Who knew?

[conspirator]

47. The dutch are still colonizing? Suriname is not big enough for them n/t

[hack89]

53. No - one of their islands is 17 miles off the coast of Venezuela

it is not unreasonable to think that every now and then one of their airplanes accidentally crosses into Venezuelan airspace.

[ronnie624]

55. Highly unlikely with modern global positioning technology.

It is far more likely that every now and then, in cahoots with the U.S., one of their planes deliberately crosses into Venezuelan airspace, testing defensive radar and keeping track of military assets.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

56. Why would we need a plane for that?

We have satellites.

And what's in it for the Dutch? What's their pay-off? Did Hillary negotiate the dread pact sealing Venezuelan's doom? How much longer until Sen Reid and Rep. Pelosi start drawing up the declaration of war or are we going to wait for a GOP-dominated congress to be seated first?

Inquiring unicorns want to know!

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

58. So I'm confused and ignorant

That is why you should take your time to explain every facet of the international hegemonist conspiracy, how it involves the Dutch, Obama's exact role within the conspiracy and how it is the more plausible explanation than simply assuming

Of course I'm confused and ignorant! That's why you should be writing in extensive detail and not just snippy snippets.

Oh and be sure to use complete sentences with subject and predicate so as not to compound my confusion.

[ronnie624]

59. Shortly, this thread will be filled with links to a large volume of information.

You will ignore all of it, because you are not really interested in a critical analysis of the history of Western imperialism in Latin America.

Suit yourself.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

60. I'm asking about OBAMA'S history of imperialism in Latin America

I want to know how Obama is being labelled a puppet/co-conspirator.

[Judi Lynn]

61. U.S. policy regarding Latin America continues REGARDLESS of the current President.

Clearly, there are some more humane, intelligent, level headed office holders who may modify, or attempt to improve relations, but they invariably are overturned by the actions of the next Republican President.

You really owe it to YOURSELF and to productive life to educate yourself, just as the rest of us do, and must, rather than attempting to play childish games in places where conscientious people come to exchange information.

Have you made any effort at all to follow what has happened regarding all of the new President's actions regarding Latin America? Don't you think it would take an inappropriate amount of effort and energy if one poster here were to actually sit at his/her computer and try to regurgitate for your enjoyment, to critique EVERYTHING he/she has learned since President Obama was inaugurated? You can be sure that's just not going to happen.

That's YOUR responsibility. You need to pay attention, make the effort, and not expect anyone else to fill you on the major points. Oherwise, simply drop it. Don't worry about it until you actually know something about the subject you pretend to discuss.

History of U.S. Interventions in Latin America
http://www2.truman.edu/~marc/resources/interventions.html

This list doesn't begin to cover the whole spectrum of what has been dealt to Latin America by this country, but it's a starting place.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

62. History is history. But that means nothing here.

What I'm being asked to believe is the (non-)intellectual equivalent of saying because Andrew Jackson decimated the Seminole tribe President Obama is part of a genocidal campaign against native Americans.

I assert the following:

1. Obama is CinC of all armed forces of the United States

2. the armed forces of the United States act only on orders of their CinC

3. Obama--regardless of past US actions in Latin America--can end any operation that does not meet his approval

4. Obama has no motive to participate in any effort to destabilize Latin America

5. Obama has no reason to graft the Dutch into any such schemes

6. Dutch do not have any reason to join themselves to such schemes

7. US inducements to gain Dutch cooperation are unexplained

8. this entire conspiracy theory that the Dutch are acting at US behest to destabilize Latin America requires such a cast of willing accomplices that it bends and breaks under its own weight

9. US technological capabilities don't require the Dutch to spy

We aren't talking about US interventionism in Latin America c. 1960s through 1980s we're talking about the here and now, this president, this administration, this congress. Pinochet, El Salvador, RW death squads, Iran-Contra etc etc I got it. I get it. But that's not what we're discussing.

My guess is Venezuela engaged in a bit of hyperbole when it refered to the Dutch flights as "acts of provocation". Compared to everything else I'm being asked to swallow about Obama its the most rational explanation. Thanks to Mr. Occam.

[Judi Lynn]

63. Your assertions are worthless if they aren't based in reality.

We DO have a very long history of covert ops leading to overt acts which repeats itself endlessly.

You still need to inform yourself on current actions regarding Latin America. If you had been following them during the _Bush administration you would understand why Latin American leaders were so hopeful for a real change of attitude from the new President, and why they have made statements that it's clear the _Bush agenda is continuing unchecked currently, regardless.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

64. Which assertions and how are they not based in fact?

I numbered them to make it easy.

I already explained I understood the history of US covert ops in Latin America. I'm not denying that. Please stop denying the fact I acknowledge the US has a history of covert ops in Latin America.

What I'm trying to establish is how Obama suddenly became a co-conspirator/powerless stooge just because Venezuela probably popped off with a over-wrought press release.

[Bacchus39]

65. if I may, I would assert Chavez is full of shit n/t

s

[PacerLJ35]

72. The US is operating out of Curacao

But the unit there is involved with counter drug ops...not anti-VZ ops. I know because I was in that squadron a few years back. Our crews looked at it as a good deal deployment...sitting on the beach in the Carib looking for drug smugglers in the gulf for several months, or sitting in Kuwait flying into Iraq every day in the 130 degree heat...hmmm, I wonder which deployment was more popular...

[hack89]

67. Check with the NTSB on the frequency of pilot navigation error

and get back to me. GPS is not magic technology that prevents humans from making errors.

[ronnie624]

69. I'll just wait for you to post the relevant information, thanks. n/t

[hack89]

74. Right after you post proof

that they are deliberately testing Venezuela's defenses.

[ronnie624]

76. I didn't say I have "proof"of anything.

I said "it is far more likely". My claim is based on the history of U.S. activities in Latin America, the currently increasing U.S. military presence in the region, and the clearly stated desire by the U.S. foreign policy establishment for "full spectrum dominance" in South America. After considering the facts of history, and examining the clear pattern established by U.S. policies in Latin America and elsewhere, there is nothing unreasonable in suspecting that the U.S. and its allies might be spying on certain countries in South America.

I searched for, but could not find the NTSB data you referenced, but I believe it is completely irrelevant anyway.

[PacerLJ35]

81. "Far more likely" = "I really don't know, taking a stab"

As I said before, there's no reason to create an international incident...we have the ability to figure out their air defenses without doing so. The article makes no mention of what type of military aircraft it was...the Dutch operate a number of patrol, airlift and tanker aircraft. It could have even been one of the RNAF VIP aircraft taking a government official back home. I can tell you now that if it was a VIP aircraft and it did in fact stray into VZ's territorial airspace (sovereign airspace), it wasn't testing their reaction because an aircraft like that isn't capable of doing much more than going "oops, lets get back on course".

IF the aircraft penetrated VZ's 3 nautical mile airspace boundary, it's much more likely (from this pilot's perspective) that the crew made an error...it happens all the time. The NTSB won't have records on that because the NTSB doesn't handle airspace violations or clearance violations...the FAA does.

Finally, to me, and having been down in that part of the world, it's much more likely that VZ is puffing its chest and confusing the ownership of airspace. VZ's territorial airspace (ie, THEIR airspace) only extends 3 nautical miles off the shore. There is also a VZ Flight Identification Region (FIR) and a VZ Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) that extends well beyond the 3 nautical miles and is controlled by VZ, but it's still international airspace and other aircraft can transit that airspace with or without VZ's approval. If they choose to fly without VZ's controller approval, they must do so VFR...there's nothing requiring them to talk to VZ controllers so long as they can maintain VMC and provide their own visual traffic separation.

I flew through Iran's FIR on several occasions. The first time we didn't talk to them....just trucked straight on through VFR. The second time, we decided to check in with Tehran just to see what they would say...it went something like this..."Tehran Radio, Flash 23 level two three zero"...."Flash two three, roger". That's all we ever heard back from them. But again, it was their controlled airspace, but international airspace.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if politicians and unknowing public citizens got those things confused.

[ChangoLoa]

84. So you mean that there wd be absolutely no military interest in entering the Venezuelan air space?

Not a way to test any defense system neither?

[PacerLJ35]

89. You guys are making a lot of assumptions based on guesses

No, if you want to "test" air defenses you don't enter the actual airspace. Actually flying into VZ's 3 nautical mile zone would serve zero purpose other than actually violating their airspace and causing a real international incident.

You seem to think this would be a viable way to assess air defenses...if so, then we'd be constantly flying into N. Korean, Chinese, Russian, Iranian, Libyan, Syrian, et al airspace, but we don't.

I've flown all around all those countries in USAF aircraft and we're told specifically to stay out of their airspace unless we want to risk being shot down. Inside 3 nautical miles, a country has the right to fire on you. Flying a patrol, cargo or VIP airplane into the 3 nautical mile limit serves no purpose other than pissing people off and making your airplane a giant target.

The airspace assessment can be done many other ways.

[ronnie624]

86. My "stab" is based on history

and the currently stated policy goals of the U.S. government, along with the increased U.S. military presence Latin America.

Your "stab" seems to be that the U.S. could not possibly be intervening in the affairs of South American countries, and I should be convinced of this, because you are presumably a military pilot. That is hardly a convincing argument.

[PacerLJ35]

90. I didn't say we aren't intervening in anybody's affairs

However, intervening doesn't mean we're intentionally flying aircraft into their 3nm boundary either.

Telling you from the standpoint of a military pilot who's been there that I doubt we're intentionally doing that doesn't mean I feel we're not involved in VZ's affairs one way or another either. You seem to apply the simplistic notion that meddling = intentional airspace violations. They aren't mutually inclusive of each other.

We meddle in many other nations affairs as well, but that doesn't mean we're flying a C-130 or P-3 through their airspace any chance we get...why? Because we don't have to. Doing so serves NO purpose militarily.

[Judi Lynn]

91. Several years ago Don Rumsfeld wrote a piece for the Wall Street Journal

and did it a year after he left the Defense Department, informing the world at large that the U.S. would be establishing operating bases in South America and would be responsive to all those requests for assisstance from all "our" friends.

They've referred repeatedly to "lily pads" from which they could launch operations, have made it blindingly clear this has been only the beginning.

The Americas have no intention of going back to the horrors of the '60's, onward, and fools like our right-wing intend to control them all over again, REGARDLESS of what the people themselves want. That land, the natural resources, the "cheap labor" from human beings there apparently seem a gift from heaven, to our right-wing corporate thieves, their military muscle, their "enforcers," which is naturally THEIRS.

How they can even face themselves in their mirrors in the mornings is a miracle.

[ronnie624]

92. Yes, I read it at the time it was published.

It left little doubt about the intentions of neocons and other wingnuts regarding South America.

U.S. Americans need a greater moral awareness of their government's interventions in other countries. There's some strong cognitive dissonance at work here.

[PacerLJ35]

70. The NTSB won't have information on airspace incursions

Since it primarily keeps records regarding aircraft mishaps. Airspace violations are handled by the FAA. In this case, neither the FAA nor the NTSB would have any jurisdiction.

I've been flying for 15 years, however. The comment about GPS not being foolproof is spot-on. Many aircraft don't navigate with GPS at all, and some use INS with GPS corrections (like the C-130, which both the Dutch and the US fly out of Curacao). Despite the general conception among the public that military aircraft are the absolute most advanced, that's not always true. Most of the advances are weapon systems and other technologies used in the aircraft employment, not in the navigation systems.

I've flown the C-130E, C-130H and C-130J (the Dutch operate the C-130H as well). The E and H models still have a human navigator, and the aircraft has a dual INS system that's updated with a GPS receiver (the whole unit is called SCNS, or Self-Contained Navigation System). But SCNS is only as good as the human navigator and I've had occasions of the Nav turning me in the wrong direction or getting lost altogether.

The C-130J has a more advanced INS/GPS system called an EGI, but it's still not as accurate as a stand-alone GPS unit certified for GPS navigation. Those systems have an RNP of 3 (Required Navigation Performance), while the "advanced" C-130J is certified for RNP-10. I'm quite sure the Dutch C-130Hs aren't any better.

Of curious note, the Venezuelan press release did not state what kind of aircraft it was...the Dutch operate combat aircraft like the F-16, but it's highly unlikely F-16s would be located in Curacao since they have limited range in the first place and they are all primarily stationed out of the Netherlands. The Dutch also operate the C-130H as stated before, plus the KDC-10 tanker, and numerous other support aircraft.

Chances are, if it was something like a C-130, it wouldn't have nearly the sensationalism being a non-combat military aircraft, versus implying that it was a fighter or something. My unit used to deploy assets to Curacao...there were no combat coded aircraft there. They were all transports, patrol aircraft or there with the USAF crews (like my friends) that were involved in the counter drug effort.

[PacerLJ35]

71. US aircraft can do that from much greater standoff distances

I won't get into a detailed discussion about the capes of the RC-135, but if we wanted to probe Venezuelan radars, etc, we could do so from well offshore with aircraft like the USAF RC-135 Rivet Joint or the RAF Nimrod (yes, it's called the Nimrod...in the US that means idiot but Nimrod actually means hunter).

In short, there's no need to actually cross their airspace to probe their air defenses. And anything VZ owns air defense-wise, we already know their capes pretty well (like their F-16s and new Russian fighters and Russian-made missiles...we have the specs on those already).

[ronnie624]

77. Ok, thanks.

But the U.S. military still has an increasing presence in the region, and the Pentagon has stated unequivocally, that it intends to conduct reconnaissance and other covert missions against countries in South America who are "hostile" to U.S. interests.

[PacerLJ35]

79. That is true, as it does with other countries that it deems has hostile intent

We park RC-135s off the coast of China, and a host of other nations. As long as you're doing it in international airspace, you can do whatever you want. Many other nations do this as well, from both the sea and the air. And don't fool yourself into thinking that VZ doesn't have its own intelligence service gathering information out there on various nations.

[ronnie624]

85. Unlike the U.S.,

Venezuela does not seek strategic and political dominance over the entire continent of South America.

The remainder of your message doesn't seem relevant to U.S. policy goals in South America.

[PacerLJ35]

88. You're right...VZ is not the US.

That being said, I doubt we are closely monitoring every nation in S. America. Some countries get paid a little more attention to than others. Even though we have the capability to do so, I seriously doubt we have assets deployed down there specifically dealing with VZ. The aircraft and crews we had down there were dealing with VZ's neighbor to the west and the drug traffic coming out of it...I know because I was specifically involved.

[Robb]

49. Having been overflown by Dutch military aircraft myself

...I can tell you, they're damn loud. :D

[jberryhill]

78. It's those huge wooden propellers

They even put them on their missile silos...

[Robb]

83. Pff. When YOU come up with a way to power those things without whale oil, let us know.

:D

[Old Troop]

66. Those damned agressive Dutch.

[Dreamer Tatum]

93. God, if ONLY the world would just LEAVE VENEZUELA ALONE

Hee hee. Most Insecure Country on Earth.