Protesters, LAPD clash as chief defends shooting

[mike r]

Source: Los Angeles Times

As Los Angeles Police Chief Charlie Beck defended the fatal shooting of a day laborer and officials called for calm, protesters and officers clashed Tuesday night in Westlake near the site of the incident.

About 300 demonstrators gathered at the LAPD's Rampart Station. Some in the crowd hurled eggs at police cars and others threw objects at the station windows, prompting officers in riot gear to push the throng along 6th Street.

Officers fired non-lethal projectiles at protesters near Union Avenue and 6th, where Manuel Jamines was fatally shot Sunday afternoon by an officer who said Jamines refused commands to drop a switchblade.

About 9:30 p.m., police declared the protest an unlawful assembly and moved in to disperse the crowd as trash cans were set on fire and rocks and bottles were thrown at officers.


Read more: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lapd-shooting-20100908,0,5823510.story

[UndertheOcean]

1. OINK OINK OINK !!!

[SkyDaddy7]

2. TAZZER TAZZER TAZZER!!!!!!!

Cops need to be sat down like little children & shown pictures of people with knives & be told "This is who you use tazzers on" and then show the cops pictures of elderly people, pregnant women & children and tell them, "Do not use your tazzers on these people".

Tazzers were sold to the public for instances just like this...So cops would not have to kill people!!! But they do not use tazzers on people with knives they shoot them!

[Lightning Count]

4. You do not use a taser when someone is holding a deadly weapon.

That is not what they are for.

[Arctic Dave]

5. Why have them then?

Cattle prod?

[Lightning Count]

6. In situations where pepper spray and batons would be used.

Basically in non-deadly situations.

[Winston Wolf]

8. The Protester Brought A Knife To A Gun Fight

Can you lend any legitimate reason the officer could NOT have used his Tazzer instead? Or ANY other method outside of taking another human being's life?

I was under the impression that officers in this country were trained to deal with such scenarios, given that, you know, their job description is to "SERVE AND PROTECT", not to resolve the majority of potential threats with lethal force.

But silly me, I thought I was living in America, where each person is innocent until proven guilty. What a silly notion indeed.

[Lightning Count]

9. The officer raises his taser and misses and is then stabbed?

The officer raises his taser and it misfires? No way to clear a jam in a taser.

The officer fires the taser and it fails to stop the suspect which does happen.

Last I checked switch blades were illegal and were a deadly weapon.

[atreides1]

11. You have Data

Of these misfires? Or incidences where a taser failed to stop a suspect?

What were the particulars of these altercations? Or are you just speaking theoretically?

[Lightning Count]

13. Sure.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/cops_lose_grip_in_bridge_death_leap_AK3oveb5ukhyJbkQCZBnbL

[Lightning Count]

12. wrong spot

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/cops_lose_grip_in_bridge_death_leap_AK3oveb5ukhyJbkQCZBnbL

[jberryhill]

14. "to resolve the majority of potential threats with lethal force"

The majority?

Really?

Police resolve the MAJORITY of potential threats with lethal force?

Riiiiiiiight.

"where each person is innocent until proven guilty"

That is a jury instruction, which establishes the burden of proof in a trial. How, in your mind, does anyone ever get arrested for anything?

If you come at a cop with a knife, the cop does not sit there and think, "Well, it sure looks like he's coming at with a knife, but I'd need a trial to figure that out."

[Winston Wolf]

20. Not Really What I Meant To Go For...

First of all, I cannot refute the fact that I did imply that police, in general, resolve situations using brutality or lethal force, and as it goes, making generalizations about anything isn't constructive, productive, or reasonable. And I most certainly didn't phrase my post in the most civil of terms.

And for that, I would like to apologize for being a douche.

However, my concern is with the following:

An officer who is armed with a gun, and a protester, who is armed with a switch blade, shoots to kill, simply because the officer in question feels his life is threatened.

I fail to understand how an officer of the law, armed with a fire-arm, and the capability of aiming said firearm, had to aim for a vital area, instead of say, shooting the protester in the leg/arm/(insert other non-essential body part here).

I mean, if this protester had a gun, it would be an entirely different story.

But the reality is that it's a man with a knife.

Verses a man with a gun.

And many other officers armed with guns.

There's just only so many ways it can go down.

[Lightning Count]

24. The best solution would be to have the officer shoot the weapon out of the guy's hand.

Minimal injury and he's then disarmed.

[Pavulon]

27. You are kidding right? I assume you jest

as firing a round at a knife would put others at risk and probably blow off parts of the hand.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CreekDog]

17. Actually, LAPD's is "To protect and serve"

but I thought most police organizations are "To serve and protect".

not clear on the difference.

:shrug:

[NickB79]

32. You are aware knives can penetrate Kevlar vests, right?

Inside of 20 ft, a knife is more lethal than a firearm.

[SkyDaddy7]

15. WRONG!

The tazzer was sold to the public for this exact scenario!

Your comment makes no sense! What is "your" reasoning behind your comment? If you use a tazzer on someone with a knife worse case scenario they fall on it...Better than getting shot.

Seriously, where did you come up with that idea?

I know police I worked around them I worked in the criminal justice system...I know WHY TAZZERS WERE INTRODUCED into the use in law enforcement...And they were not meant to be used on people who simply refuse to sign a ticket or back talk a cop...They were meant to be used in scenarios exactly like this where a cop would have no other option but to shoot someone!


LOL!!!

[Pavulon]

18. LOL Knife is lethal force. In the use of force continum the correct step is lethal.

you think the cops are going to get into a knife fight to keep it "fair".

[SkyDaddy7]

21. Tazzers can and have been used on people with knives...

If tazzers were not meant to be used in cases like this, people with swords trying to commit suicide by cop, drug crazed lunatics, etc what exactly are they meant to be used for? Cops still kill in all these situations at the roughly the same rate...Something is wrong with this & it is training!

[Pavulon]

26. You dont meet lethal force with less lethal. The police are not bound

to coddle these people. They have families at home. Bring a knife to a gunfight, expect this outcome. You guys have lost it.

[SkyDaddy7]

34. Your comments are hollow at best...

I never said anything about coddling or being nice...I never said cops should not use deadly force. However, when you have a man with a knife & there are multiple cops on scene communicating with the individual there is plenty of time to safely use less than lethal force. It is exactly scenarios like this that the tazzer was created for. Yes it can be used in many other scenarios responsibly as well. But tazzing folks for back talking, not signing tickets, pregnant women, children the elderly has to stop!

It all comes down to training. And changing the current culture that plagues many of the law enforcement agencies around the country.

[Pavulon]

36. This is real simple. If you pull a knife on the police expect to get shot

not tazed, not beat with a baton, and thats reality. Lesson, dont get all fucking stupid drunk pull a knife, ignore instructions, and then be surprised when you get popped.

Hope he was an organ donor, so others can benefit from his stupidity.

[SkyDaddy7]

39. Come back to the conversation...You are way off topic...

The discussion was not about pulling a knife on a cop. If you want to discuss the topic at hand then I am willing otherwise why would you bother even commenting?

[Pavulon]

41. Misuse of less lethals is not the topic. the dead guy who failed to follow instructions

is the topic.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

50. My internal Bayesian filter doesn't like that word.

"Coddle."

[NickB79]

33. And bare fists have successfully been used against people with knives...

Doesn't mean we should expect the police to do the same.

[SkyDaddy7]

35. You can play the cops do no wrong tough guy thingy...

But when it comes to doing everything one can to preserve the life of a human being the tazzer can play a big role. As it was meant to do!

If you want your cops out there shooting everyone with a knife including those who simply want the cops to shoot them than you are clueless!

You obviously have no idea the toll it takes on a "tough guy" cop when they do kill someone...Yes, there are cops out there who could kill on a daily basis & not think twice about as they feel they are doing good. However, the majority of cops are haunted by the fact they had to kill.

The tazzer was meant to help in certain situations when it comes to scenarios like this.

If you are so cool & tough not to understand this...If you have the TEA BAGGER non-thinking mentality not to even consider the proper role of a tazzer then you & I have nothing to talk about.

[Pavulon]

38. use of force continuum.. educate yourself..

[SkyDaddy7]

42. Obviously you are lost in this conversation...

think about why cops carry tazzers & where they fall on the "use of force continuum" chart you posted...You are so high on yourself that you are missing the entire basis for this discussion. I would suggest you take your own advice an educate yourself on why tazzers were ever introduced into law enforcement & why. Then we can talk.

And you might even try learning about what some police forces, the responsible ones, are training officers when it comes to the "use of force continuum" & the proper use of non-lethal options.

Tazers are not meant to replace the gun...However, they can be used effectively in cases where before the tazzer a cop would have no other choice but to use deadly force...If you can't understand that then go play with your chart because this conversation is going no where.

[Pavulon]

43. Officers call. Unless you were STANDING there you have no idea if deploying

a less lethal was appropriate. At the end of the day the officer is home with their family and the man with a knife is dead. Tazers are a nice option between hard hands and a baton. Say a drunk fighting or person all coked up.

They were never designed to replace the firearm. The firearm is appropriate when a knife is present within 21 feet. Done.

[SkyDaddy7]

23. Watch this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg_xbDyWW-E

[ManiacJoe]

19. You have ben horribly misinformed.

> The tazzer was sold to the public for this exact scenario!
Lethal force is always countered with lethal force.

The purpose of the taser is a non-lethal response to a non-lethal threat.

[SkyDaddy7]

22. It is you that really is badly misinformed...

Sorry, but like I said I worked around law enforcement at the time tazzers were introduced and the EXACT examples that were given where tazzers would be most effective were in situations where people with knives, swords because tazzers have a far enough reach a cop can engage safely, folks with these "lethal weapons" seeking suicide by cop, drug crazed lunatics that can't be controlled & otherwise would force a cop to shoot them...Not people who refuse to sign tickets, or pregnant women trying to get to a hospital, elderly women & children or even folks who back talk cops. Tazzers are not harmless toys they can be lethal & should be treated as such! PERIOD!

I understand cops have a very hard job but there has to be some discipline & training! This is either not happening or the culture has simply reached a point cops do not care as they have progressively gotten away with more & more over time.

You are free to say what you want but you are wrong...I understand you may think you are correct but I ask you "If the use of tazzers were not meant for the examples I gave then what exactly do you think they have them for?" Just to use when a cop is mad or does not like what someone has to say? Because that is what they use them for now in more cases than not and that is simply wrong!

If you still are questioning how effecti tazzers are against people armed with a knife then watch this...And you will see just how wrong you are!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg_xbDyWW-E

[ManiacJoe]

28. You have the right idea, just the wrong info.

Yes, tasers can be, and have been, used successfully against people using edged weapons.

As you point out, the incorrect use of tasers include on those "who refuse to sign tickets, or pregnant women trying to get to a hospital, elderly women & children or even folks who back talk cops."

Tasers are not meant to replace guns. If a lethal response is required, then a lethal weapon needs to be used. Tasers are meant to be used as replacements and augmentations to batons and pepper spray. While there are some circumstances where tasers can be used safely against lethal force, they were certainly not designed for that purpose and are certainly not marketed for that purpose.

Due to the bad camera angles in that video, one cannot argue either way about whether that one example is a good use of a taser or not. My initial viewing certainly concluded it was a bad use due to the knife being held against the hostage's neck. However, is it possible that the cop had a better view and saw that the knife was away from the hostage. We don't have that info. What is obvious is that a great use of the taser would have been when the attacker was cutting the tape as he walked through it.

[SkyDaddy7]

37. Now you are coming over to the side of COMMON SENSE!

Maybe you just want the feeling of winning an argument but that is not what I am here for.

First, NOT ONCE did I EVER say anything about the tazzer replacing the gun...THAT WAS YOU ALONE! That is simply absurd to even bring up!

Tazzers are very effective weapon against a person armed with only a knife or even a sword...You said it yourself..."Yes, tasers can be, and have been, used successfully against people using edged weapons."
Can tazzers be used in ever case where a knife is involved...Of course not.

My entire point and it is based on my first hand knowledge working within the criminal justice system & paying close attention when tazzers were first introduced, having spoken in depth with cops about this topic & how law enforcement itself said tazzers could be used & why...Tazzers can be & were designed to (among other things) give cops another option, a non lethal option, in scenarios where otherwise they would have to use deadly force! Scenarios exactly like this where there are multiple cops on scene they were communicating with the man a tazzer could have be employed safely while multiple cops were there with firearms drawn if it did not work. Or scenarios where a man was armed with a sword & wanted the cops to shoot him as he was swing the sword & lunging at cops...He was tazzed & taken into custody! There are many cases where this has happened! Plus, tazzers can be used when a cop is by themselves and someone could be over powering them...tazzers have been used in these scenarios as well! Folks enraged on drugs where in the past (still do) cops had no other option but to kill a tazzer gives them another option. The tazzer has a job and it is to provide the police another option to avoid having to kill if possible.

Every case is different but to say tazzers were not sold to the public as an option of non-lethal force in scenarios where otherwise lethal force would be used IS WRONG! They most certainly were!

Another HUGE reason tazzers are valuable to law enforcement if used properly...Cops who have no problem killing or actually like killing aside (hopefully they are a very small minority)...many cops have huge psychological issues after killing someone! I know of one who quit his job after he killed a man...A disgusting child rapist on top of that. Knowing you killed another person is a lot for the majority of people to deal with even if they were in the right or defending their own life. Tazzers can help minimize this as well!

It all comes down to TRAINING TRAINING TRAINING! And changing the culture in many law enforcement agencies around the country! There have been cases where a police chief has taken tazzers away from his entire force due to them not being used in the manner they were intended...Until all his officers went through extensive training. And then there are the agencies that really do not care about how their officers use tazzers as they are seen as harmless...I have heard this thinking myself when cops say tazzers are harmless because they have been shot by them and nothing happened to them. These are the cops who will use a tazzer at the drop of a hat because they think its harmless!

Again, this comes down to proper training!

Tazzers have a purpose & I laid it out in as much detail as I could for you to see...Please don't put words in my mouth. I would not be as passionate about this if I did not know what I know from first hand experience!

I am not one to blow hot air to just blow hot air.

[Pavulon]

40. Lots of words to cover a simple subject.

a knife is a deadly force instrument. See below. (look its a cute little swiss army knife) When confronted with a knife a person (leo or not) can legally and reasonable meet lethal force with lethal force. Its the officers call. If they believe the situation can be handled with a less lethal, great. If not well thats their call.

[ManiacJoe]

45. Your position in this post

is very different from where you started in posts #2 and #15. Thank you for the clarification.

[boppers]

46. Do you hate Thomas Swift?

Are you trying to get some other message across with your spelling variant?

[Speciesamused]

3. Citizen Panel in every city to oversee our police forces.

In a country where the law has become something to fear because
it is not a just system. Where bullies join police forces to carry on
their high school agenda. There needs to be implemented Citizen Panels
in every city to oversee our police forces so these types of crimes do
not happen. It is not right and we know it. I do not blame the protesters
for trying to open peoples eyes to the injustices we see so prevalent in law
enforcement today.

[Exultant Democracy]

7. So if you protest the police the can declare the protest an unlawful assembly...

[cbadsurfer]

10. Try Doing the same thing in Mexico city or Guatemala city

I know there different counties but go to Mexico city or
Guatemala city  get drunk  and start to threaten people, then
when the police come lunge at them with a knife and see when
happens in those countries and you will be just as dead as
this guy in LA.

[Pavulon]

16. Or germany or france, canada too

the size of the hole in your body they make may differ but they will shoot you.

[toopers]

25. People really need to get the facts straight before commenting . . .

1st: This guy was not just a day laborer -- he was in the country illegally. I am not saying that is cause for deadly force. However, if he followed the law more often he would probably still be alive.

2nd: The police were responding to a citizens call that a drunk man was threatening people on the street with a knife. Manuel Jamines was not a part of some protest. I am sure that we will find out that this is not the first brush with the law Senor Jamines has had with the law.

3rd: I would certainly not want to get into a possible scuffle with a mad, drunk man brandishing a knife (the attached link is very graphic. If you do not want to see an open wound then do not click on the link). http://www.fraternalorderoflawenforcement.com/officer_assault.html

4th: You do not try to shoot the weapon out of someone's hand. You should always shoot at the widest part of the target (the abdomen) because you are more likely to hit a bigger target. I do think the police made an error in shooting the man in the head. However, it may have been due to Jamines lunging at the police officer, adrenaline, or a combination of factors.

At the end of the day, if Jamines had listened to the cops and put down his knife, he would probably still be alive. Jamines is dead because he was drunk and stupid.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DerBeppo]

30. Also:

The cop who shot him was Hispanic and gave instructions in both English and Spanish.

[Joanne98]

44. I lived in LA County for 25 years. The cops are monsters!

There isn't ANYTHING EVIL they don't do!

[saigon68]

47. Lots of Love on this thread

[CJvR]

48. Only one side of the story but...

...it sounds like a perfectly legitemate shooting.

Stupid drunk threatening people with a knife in the street.
Moron then refuses to lay down the knife when confronted by armed police.
Darwin Award level idiot then charges the police!!!

Still there were three officers precent, if one of them had a TASER available that should have been the first option - with the other two backing up with the real firepower in case something went wrong.

[Honeyporter735]

49. it was a righteous shoot

get over it.